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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Gandalf doesn't practice magic, for the most part. Most of his abilities are simply knowledge; they're subtleish because Arda doesn't have a lot of big spellcasting, as we usually think of it... the "mighty spells" are more likely to be woven into objects or be long rituals, not 6 seconds and a fireball. The rest of his abilities come from being somewhere between a deva and an avatar.
    On the subject, he's not exactly subtle in his spellcasting. I recall one instance in The Hobbit where he burns a pack of worgs with a fireball. Probably in about six seconds, now that I think about it. I could be misremembering that particular passage, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

    Magic is very much a tool when used the way D&D treats it. D&D rarely takes the time to explain how it works beyond the letters V, S, and M. There's little rhyme or reason to it. From the player's perspective, it's all just nonsensical cause and effect. With no underlying ontology, it's ripe only for exploitation, not reverence.

    Edit: Found the chapter where he sets wolves on fire, and it was burning pinecones he uses, not fireballs. Material component, I guess?
    Last edited by Grinner; 2014-07-25 at 03:57 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Didn’t The Hobbit go through several re-writes?

    Because I distinctly remember Gandalf basting the goblins with lightning when they were captured and taken to goblin town. But when I re-read the book
    may years later, that didn’t happen.

    Since I don’t own a copy, it must have been two different printings with some changes made in between.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    You will notice, however, that regardless of Gandal's exact actions when using magic, its only good at making things worse (or just average).

    Zapping the gobbos dont make them flee.
    Setting the Wargs on fire only give them an incentive to wait for the gobbos, who then use said fire to roast the dwarves.

    Ultimately, its Gandalf's gift at making friends with the Eagles and Beorn that save the day, not his 1337 wizard spellz.

    Let me ask you a question: if you have a person able to summon at will a firestorm at the place of his choice. It doesnt cost him anything, he may limited to a few times a day. Or at least to practical limits. What do you call this ability?

    I call that a Directed Airstrike.

    Whats the difference between Rapier's definition of magic and fancy technology? Thats the entire point of this thread: see how fantasy and sci-fi can mix. Treating magic like its just another tech tool is basically removing the fantasy aspect of the equation.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    ......oh god, I just can't muster myself to care about any of these criticisms and the people being difficult because of stupid semantics, I'm out, I'm just getting frustrated and stressed from this and its not going to be helpful to the discussion.

    Edit: ok somewhat cooled down, only one question: how can understanding historical magic possibly help me get the magic that I want? its not historical, so its not relevant to it.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2014-07-25 at 06:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Edit: ok somewhat cooled down, only one question: how can understanding historical magic possibly help me get the magic that I want? its not historical, so its not relevant to it.
    It helps you know what you're looking for and how to phrase things so others understand you. It gives you more perspective on types of magic.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    It helps you know what you're looking for and how to phrase things so others understand you. It gives you more perspective on types of magic.
    any idea on how to go about that aside from half-hearted google attempts and wikipedia?
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    any idea on how to go about that aside from half-hearted google attempts and wikipedia?
    There is a video on youtube made by... Err.. Tasteful Underrated Nerdrage (TUN) about the nature of magic in video games and fictions. It actually adresses certain classic litteracy elements, and while his voice is deliberately droning, i find him to be extremely entertaining.

    I think his account name is JBond or something like that.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Good post Mark. I think I'll look into Mysteries of Magic. Do you have anything in it to the lines of stories of monks, exerting influence to negotiate with or rebuke spirits but not having any directly magical powers?

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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mask View Post
    Good post Mark. I think I'll look into Mysteries of Magic. Do you have anything in it to the lines of stories of monks, exerting influence to negotiate with or rebuke spirits but not having any directly magical powers?
    I wouldn't suggest it; it's heavily oriented towards Palladium Fantasy. I created a psionic class based on the Commune with Spirits power in PF, but I don't recall it getting in.
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    any idea on how to go about that aside from half-hearted google attempts and wikipedia?
    I'd actually avoid Wikipedia. It's great if you know what you're looking for, but being encyclopedic, it tends to lack things like introductions and overviews.

    Edit: Actually, if you have the money for it, I'd recommend GURPS Thaumatology. It goes through a plethora of practices without resting too heavily on their philosophies. Grade-A game material.
    Last edited by Grinner; 2014-07-25 at 08:00 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinner View Post
    On the subject, he's not exactly subtle in his spellcasting. I recall one instance in The Hobbit where he burns a pack of worgs with a fireball. Probably in about six seconds, now that I think about it. I could be misremembering that particular passage, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened.
    Actually he uses the Spark cantrip on a Pinecone and throws it at them.

    In fact, I can't remember Gandalf using anything but cantrips in The Hobbit and LoTR.
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Edit: ok somewhat cooled down, only one question: how can understanding historical magic possibly help me get the magic that I want? its not historical, so its not relevant to it.
    The point is that the conception of magic as it permeates the fantasy (and related) genres is informed by a long literary tradition which in itself is informed by beliefs which people actually held historically about magic in the real world. The idea of the D&D-style "Wizard" is actually a relatively recent addition to this corpus. There's a reason it's called Vancian magic, after all. Also, the tradition as a whole draws relatively little distinction, if any, between the D&D system's classes: "sorcerer" is often, probably usually, used interchangeably with "wizard" (as are some of the more specific titles like "conjurer" or "enchanter"). What D&D would call clerics or druids, even paladins or rangers, are be called wizards or sorcerers elsewhere.

    Some of your statements about what magic "should" be like have been rather narrow, ignoring the vast majority of the fantasy and pre-fantasy tradition in favour of an ideal of magic heavily influenced by D&D magic systems. Now, it's fine if that's the sort of magic you prefer, but some of what you've said has suggested that you think that's the only type of magic that's valid; that anything else isn't really magic, or that characters who use it aren't really wizards, etc. All of which is only true from a certain perspective, and I think the original question was, and certainly the conversation has become, rather more broad than that.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    There is a video on youtube made by... Err.. Tasteful Underrated Nerdrage (TUN) about the nature of magic in video games and fictions. It actually adresses certain classic litteracy elements, and while his voice is deliberately droning, i find him to be extremely entertaining.

    I think his account name is JBond or something like that.
    kay watched it, yet another "magic should be rare and mysterious" complaint that I do not care for. I am unimpressed. if that is what you prefer though....I'm not stopping you.

    @ Aedilred:
    ok whatever, my magic is not the only valid one, but all of what you people said sound like excluding my own preference for magic over my own, which makes me feel like that mine is not valid.

    but whatever, I'm the kind of guy that wants magitech, thematic magic that is more of expression of will and the flexibility of thought than any rigid spell or subtle working, and other such things in a world where everyone else seems to prefer more subtle hidden things, limits and restraints yet at the same time reality-warping that I don't care for. I guess I just....have a preference that probably nobody else shares, and will probably never be shared because I have a weird mind that apparently doesn't get anyone else and only wants this narrow one ideal. argh.

    Edit: or I guess, my own rules or whatever. argh.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2014-07-25 at 08:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    but whatever, I'm the kind of guy that wants magitech, thematic magic that is more of expression of will and the flexibility of thought than any rigid spell or subtle working, and other such things in a world where everyone else seems to prefer more subtle hidden things, limits and restraints yet at the same time reality-warping that I don't care for. I guess I just....have a preference that probably nobody else shares, and will probably never be shared because I have a weird mind that apparently doesn't get anyone else and only wants this narrow one ideal. argh.
    Which is cool, but harder to design. The problem with a lot of freeform systems is coming up with a way to adjudicate the possibilities of creativity... in universe, you simply do it, in game, you have to come up with a system.

    Which, for a flexible system, is why I keep pimping the old Dragonlance SAGA system, where they walked you through a series of tables to relatively quickly create complex effects. Since there's a large amount of examples, a GM has a fair amount to work from. It's just too bad the rest of the system was unworkable.
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Well.. A thematic-based approach to superpowered magic that lets you manifest what you want while still restricted by certain rules...

    You could always dust up the good old Mage : the Awakening system, do away with Paradox rules, and find ways to enforce one's thematic in the magic.

    For example, a wizards using what he believes to be godly magic would be able to pop spells on the fly, but only if it follow the God's rules and agenda. As opposed to a Vancian wizard who have to painstakingly prepare the spell he will cast, but can use them for whatever purpose he wants.

    Itd be a very valid system, while retaining a strong thrmatic feeling. Just remember a cardinal rule of litteracy magic: its costly.

    Be it Time. Work. Blood. Soul. Gold. Friendship.

    Magic is always costly one way or another. You are meddling with the Rules of the Universe.. Why do you think you can get away with it? ;)

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    when I say thematic magic, I sort of mean more like being able to only use illusions, or only use fire, or only use hope magic and such and so on, but the magic itself is flexible within its theme for any purpose you can think of.

    and that at most you'd have two themes? like fire and truth, or water and adaptation, enough to make it flexible and interesting but not enough to make you godly and all-powerful. and you sort of have to justify the combination- fire and destruction, is different from fire and happiness, and thus has different capabilities. vancian casting is just too unrelated and artificial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    I call that a Directed Airstrike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    when I say thematic magic, I sort of mean more like being able to only use illusions, or only use fire, or only use hope magic and such and so on, but the magic itself is flexible within its theme for any purpose you can think of.

    and that at most you'd have two themes? like fire and truth, or water and adaptation, enough to make it flexible and interesting but not enough to make you godly and all-powerful. and you sort of have to justify the combination- fire and destruction, is different from fire and happiness, and thus has different capabilities. vancian casting is just too unrelated and artificial.
    This sounds a lot like Mage: The Awakening. You could houserule that game to where you can only take your two favored arcana and one other, and that would ensure that you get more power instead of more variety.

    Another game system that could work is Geist: The Sin-Eaters. In it, you get Manifestations, which determine what you can do, and Keys, which determine what you do it to. Again, some houseruling would be required.

    Fate would work decently for this - stunts and aspects would be great for determining what your powers are, or just create specific skills for each type of magic.

    There's also a homebrew magic system for D&D 3.5 called Elements of Magic, which gives you more flexibility in terms of what you can do - instead of learning new spells, you learn a new effect+element combination, like Evoke Metal or Abjure Fire. Of course, since you keep learning new combos and new signature spells, that might not be to your liking.

    EDIT: Oh, I forgot one! Nobilis. You only have one Power, but what that Power can do tends to be very flexible, and there's lots of room to interpret things creatively.
    Last edited by Cronocke; 2014-07-26 at 03:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    What I hate however is "Magic is unexplained science" approach. No, don't do that. Magic is magic, science is science, best if the two simply cannot work together.
    It is fallacious to conflate "science" with "the rules of the real-world universe." Science is a process, a methodology of systematic analysis and discovery. If magic actually exists in a setting, science is not automatically opposed to it; in fact, it should embrace it. Science can absolutely work together with magic, in the same way that it can work with physics and chemistry, if magic exists in a setting. The fact that wizards in D&D apply their Intelligence scores to the effectiveness of their spells, learn from books and field notes, and develop their spells in more powerful ways as they learn and observe their effects suggests that they are in fact scientists of a kind, merely ones who are far stingier about sharing knowledge than the real-world scientific community (and with good reason; how many people do you trust enough to give them intimate knowledge about how to rewrite the universe?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    What I hate however is "Magic is unexplained science" approach. No, don't do that. Magic is magic, science is science, best if the two simply cannot work together. Making magic unexplaied science makes it stop being magic and robs the setting from it's fantasy, now making it all very silly science fiction. If you need that in order to explain your wolrdbuilding, okay, but don't pretend it's a fantasy story, even if you have living suit of armor riding dragon that drops bombs full of werewolf goblins.
    technically your wrong: the quote is "any sufficiently advanced TECHNOLOGY is indistinguishable from magic" science is a philosophy and process.

    and I really don't get it.

    its like taking a look at gravity and going "No don't explain gravity! or magnetism! I'm interested in them, so therefore keep them rare so that I may gasp when they actually happen and not actually investigate it at all!" or "This is wondrous and awesome! keep it away from me, before I start seeing why!" It doesn't follow any train of logic I can think of. especially when all the greatest minds, the people who would become wizards would be the ones most interested in seeking these things out and being a nerd over them, and if there is one thing nerds love to do, its explain, explain, explain. I can't say something even slightly wrong about a subject without getting someone who know the subject better correcting me about it in some minute way, what makes you think that an entire order of wizards who can call upon the forces of the universe to destroy those who anger them won't be launching into rants and lectures about people using improper terms or distorted stories of superstition for what they do and trying to make them understand this stuff? not just out of nerdiness mind you, but making sure the people around them don't become suspicious of what they are doing and interrupting what could be important work. not everyone is as wise as Gandalf, nor is everyone as secret-keeping as Guardians of the Veil.

    that and not finding any wonder or magic in technology is kind of unimaginative, don't you think?
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    I do understand the ideas behind keeping magic mysterious and rare. Knowing something gives you a sort of power over it, and that power makes it harder to feel awe about it. Familiarity breeds contempt, as they say, and while "contempt" might not be exactly the right word for it, you can see how having intimate knowledge of exactly how something works ruins some of its majesty. Think of any of the highly advanced pieces of technology you use every day. Do you feel more awe-struck by these masterpieces of human ingenuity today, after many months or years of using them, than when you first acquired them?
    Or, to use a different example, somewhat less related directly to magic but in keeping with the "mystery is awe-inspiring" idea, take the Covenant from the Halo series of video games. In the first game, they didn't speak English (except for the cannon-fodder troops), you weren't familiar with many of their units and weapons, and your information on their motivations and society were limited. Consequently they were more intimidating than in the second game, where they speak English, you are afforded glimpses into their society, and where you can see their decision-making processes and failures. There are enemies in one of my campaign settings that I really like and want to gush over but don't simply to make sure they don't lose that awesome quality in the same way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    that and not finding any wonder or magic in technology is kind of unimaginative, don't you think?
    This actually a fairly insulting thing to say. Most people do find no wonder or magic in most technology, except maybe stuff like the large hadron collider. I mean who sees magic in a toaster, or even their computer?

    I think that the wonder people have for magic in a story should be inversely related to how often they encounter that magic. If everyone can create fire but clicking their fingers then most people won't see the magic in that, but will see the magic in a spell that causes people to double in size for 20 minutes. Why is this relevant?

    Because in each case there are people who are different. Those who never stop being amazed at the wonder in the seemingly ordinary. These are the people who want to chase that wonder and understand it, in order to find more wonder.

    In a D&D these people are wizards.

    In our world we call them scientists and engineers. I'm studying to become an electrical engineer at the moment, and I can say that every day I am amazed at the basic things my computer can do. Every time I cook I'm baffled by the magic of the cooker, even though I know it's gas lit by a spark. My favourite lecture on my course was when I learnt how assembler code is created. If I ever met someone with a cybernetic limb I would squee. But I except that most people, even some people on my course, aren't anywhere as near as excited about modern technology as I am. So I except that some people do not want their magic systems as detailed as I do. Some of those who find no wonder in technology actually have a lot more imagination than I do.

    As a side note, I don't think that fantasy and science fiction can mix well, as fantasy looks for wonder in the extraordinary, but science fiction wants to be in a place where it's world's everyday inspires wonder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    It is fallacious to conflate "science" with "the rules of the real-world universe." Science is a process, a methodology of systematic analysis and discovery. If magic actually exists in a setting, science is not automatically opposed to it; in fact, it should embrace it. Science can absolutely work together with magic, in the same way that it can work with physics and chemistry, if magic exists in a setting. The fact that wizards in D&D apply their Intelligence scores to the effectiveness of their spells, learn from books and field notes, and develop their spells in more powerful ways as they learn and observe their effects suggests that they are in fact scientists of a kind, merely ones who are far stingier about sharing knowledge than the real-world scientific community (and with good reason; how many people do you trust enough to give them intimate knowledge about how to rewrite the universe?).
    Well, that's one interpretation...And that's really the problem here, isn't it? There's just so many different possible interpretations.

    In the case of D&D, it's entirely reasonable to interpret magic as science, for the very reasons you just pointed out. However, for those very reasons, it lacks a certain profundity or even, dare I say, magic. Now, I could just be projecting, but when I hear people draw an artificial divide between science and magic for the purposes of keeping the latter mysterious, keeping it wondrous, I think they really don't know what they want.

    The allure of mystery lies in its resolution. People want to understand. The problem with D&D is that its magic is just so mundane. Understanding it bears no novelty. It does not open the eyes to vistas of insight. It just is and on the most paltry of justifications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinner View Post
    Well, that's one interpretation...And that's really the problem here, isn't it? There's just so many different possible interpretations.

    In the case of D&D, it's entirely reasonable to interpret magic as science, for the very reasons you just pointed out. However, for those very reasons, it lacks a certain profundity or even, dare I say, magic. Now, I could just be projecting, but when I hear people draw an artificial divide between science and magic for the purposes of keeping the latter mysterious, keeping it wondrous, I think they really don't know what they want.

    The allure of mystery lies in its resolution. People want to understand. The problem with D&D is that its magic is just so mundane. Understanding it bears no novelty. It does not open the eyes to vistas of insight. It just is and on the most paltry of justifications.
    Which comes back to "What do you want from magic" back in post #29. Magic in D&D is very much a technology... it's something that can be used, in a repeatable fashion, to solve problems. Magic in D&D is also a science, in that you can seemingly investigate it and draw conclusions... if I do X and Y, then Z will happen.

    The problem with creating a "magical" magic system is making it one that you can deal with in static probabilities... i.e. "I want to do X with magic, and want to know if that's reasonable and possible." There's a lot of ways of making it seem more "magical", usually by increasing rarity (so it can't be used to solve mundane problems).

    Having been watching Avatar: The Last Airbender, recently, I was thinking about Sokka, especially in the early episodes. He's been living for 2-5 years in a very low-bending environment.... most of the benders left the Southern Water Tribe, leaving Kitara the untrained as the only bender left. For him, bending was rare, magical (and somewhat useless). He continued to hold bending as magical until he spent a lot of time abroad in the world, and saw how much of a science and technology it was... bending, in many ways, drove the world in which he lived. Though bending is pretty magical by our standards, it was somewhat mundane by the standards of the society it exists in... still with the capacity to amaze people (much as I am frequently amazed by the power of the computer I keep in my pants), its principles are understood, deducible, and its effects repeatable.

    If you're mixing Fantasy and Sci-fi, what role do you want magic to fill? Is it the role of "things science can't do"... so science may give you FTL transportation, but magic can do instantaneous travel and creation of matter and energy? Is it "innate abilities similar to physical technology"? So science can shoot a laser beam, and magic can shoot a slightly different kind of laser beam, but without the need for a tool? Where do you want the lines drawn?
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    and yet I hear everyone speak of the wonders of mundane human smarts and ingenuity from people who like Batman, Solar Exalted, Conan and and every other hero with no powers. People apparently don't like other forms of awesome being everywhere but quite willing to talk endlessly about what humanity does without end.

    Me? when I see something fantastic, I want more. I want to see more, I want to share more, spread it! I don't want it kept from me, I don't want it locked away. Its fantasy! why are you so keen on keeping the entire point of the genre so rare, why must I subsist on little scraps that don't satisfy me? Its frustrating to me, and leaves me dissatisfied that I don't get more.

    and maybe the initial "whoa" effect wore off- but thats only initial wonder. I know that the computer I type on is a great achievement establishing communication like never before! understanding it only makes me know how much I should be thankful for its existence! the wonder only fades if I stop thinking of it, if I stop valuing it, and most people stop thinking about it, they let it fade because their mind is on other things. but just because your not thinking of it, doesn't mean the value goes away- only that its hidden and that you must think upon it discern more wonder, more value!

    why is there only wonder in rare flashy effects that don't mean anything? there is a deeper wonder and value than some surface liking of mystery and subtlety. I don't see why I should stop considering something wondrous just because its common, why ever consider that it might be wondrous BECAUSE its common? why look at comic books, we didn't used to have those at all, and now look at the stories we can tell using them and how many people can see that story! Or TV, imagine the wonders of so many people across the world watching it, so many different things to so many different people, almost unimaginable 40 or 50 years ago. maybe I am a person of science fiction. maybe my idea for magic and magitech stories isn't what you consider fantasy. but that is hardly something bad to my point of view. rather it is the greatest thing about it to me.

    because if your idea of "fantasy" is walking about experiencing mostly boring mundanity then suddenly magic for no rhyme or reason then it just as suddenly disappearing, and not showing up for a while more, I want no part of fantasy or your idea of it. I do not read Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire for their magic- their magic is pointless and meaningless because they write it so, I read them for the characters involved. but what I want is the magic to be expressed, and I want it to be valuable, not this mysterious force to go "Wo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o, you don't know anything about it, w0o0o0o0o0o0, gaze in wonder" at.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    and yet I hear everyone speak of the wonders of mundane human smarts and ingenuity from people who like Batman, Solar Exalted, Conan and and every other hero with no powers.
    One of these things is not like the others....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    People apparently don't like other forms of awesome being everywhere but quite willing to talk endlessly about what humanity does without end.
    I don't _mind_ magic, but I do mind magic being _always_ better than non-magic.

    As for 'awe and mystery', the necessary codification and systematization needed to make magic playable in a RPG makes most magic systems about as awesome and mysterious as ordering the Extra Value Meal at McD's.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately. And to me, it seems the primary distinction between the two is mostly presentation. Both things are fantasy, overall. Fantasy just becomes science fiction if the magic is presented in a way that attempts to be consistent with the audience's scientific knowledge.

    Generally, consistency is a quality that is paramount for anything with a scientific explanation to make sense, so sci-fi tends to also emphasize consistency in general. For this reason, sci-fi tends to focus on how well justified that magic is using real science. This is why some people consider Star Wars to not be real sci-fi, there's no time spent on explanations. The magic just is. (As opposed to Star Trek as of late, which is barely sci-fi. Lately, they just justify the magic with stupid/nonsense explanations hoping to fool their audience, but the token effort is there because it's supposed to be sci-fi.)

    Fantasy isn't necessarily inconsistent, it's just not as critical for the subject matter, since being realistic isn't necessarily the goal. The goal with the magic here isn't to show how it's done, the goal is what would happen if it was done. Phillip K. Richard wrote a lot of his stories with this approach, yet it's categorized as sci-fi. Honestly, I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because he had a philosophical approach to his subject matter, or just wrote about sci-fi concepts in general.

    I think a good sign of creativity is taking a common element from one type of setting and transplanting it into the other type of setting where it's rare. I don't think there's any reason why any single element from either genre makes sense to limit to just that one genre.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Getting off the subject of the nitty gritty details of magic for a minute...

    There was an obscure 90's anime I had a VHS of called Genesis Survivor Gaiarth, set in a post-apocalyptic world where instead of paladins, there were "war-roids", and magic items were replaced with poorly-understood technology, like a back-mounted device that projected a spherical force field (and the user chanted a spell before powering on), various types of railguns and plasma cannons in place of bows and fireball spells, and high-tech cybernetics in place of permanent self-enhancement spells.

    I wouldn't say it was exactly brilliant, but it was certainly one of the more interesting ways I've seen of reinventing the fantasy genre. (It's part of why I don't feel Numenera goes far enough, but that's another story.)

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately. And to me, it seems the primary distinction between the two is mostly presentation. Both things are fantasy, overall. Fantasy just becomes science fiction if the magic is presented in a way that attempts to be consistent with the audience's scientific knowledge.

    Generally, consistency is a quality that is paramount for anything with a scientific explanation to make sense, so sci-fi tends to also emphasize consistency in general. For this reason, sci-fi tends to focus on how well justified that magic is using real science. This is why some people consider Star Wars to not be real sci-fi, there's no time spent on explanations. The magic just is. (As opposed to Star Trek as of late, which is barely sci-fi. Lately, they just justify the magic with stupid/nonsense explanations hoping to fool their audience, but the token effort is there because it's supposed to be sci-fi.)
    How do you decide if something is justified using real science? As an example, I have a science fiction setting with the following timeline:

    2008: the world significantly departs from ours, with an event happening that reduces the effectiveness of most governments.

    2010s: megacorporations begin to rise, technology begins to advance slightly faster than in our world. By 2018 there are commercial fully functional cybernetic arms.

    2020s: nerve-based inputs for computers are developed. Augmented reality begins to become the norm.

    2030s: nerve based outputs are developed, nerve based inputs become efficient, the internet begins to evolve into the 3d matrix.

    2056: project eternity discovers a way to slow aging, but not significantly. Governments begin to reclaim power from megacorps.

    2060s: colony on mars is established. Terra forming begins.

    ~2100: project eternity potentially doubles human lifespan.

    2160s: terraforming of mars complete. Humanity is spread across the inner solar system.

    2200: humanity begins to colonise the outer solar system.

    2250s: warp drive is created.

    2300+: space opera with no aliens present.

    Doe the above timeline ever break from being justified by 'real' science (by which I assume you mean modern scientific knowledge)? If so, can you please tell me approximately where it becomes fantasy instead of science fiction. This is to understand the point better, so I'm sorry if it sounds insulting.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Mixing Fantasy and Sci-Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    As for 'awe and mystery', the necessary codification and systematization needed to make magic playable in a RPG makes most magic systems about as awesome and mysterious as ordering the Extra Value Meal at McD's.
    It's all in the fluff. If your fluff is terrible, your game's going to be mediocre, at best.

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