Pathfinder Tier List

[Psyren]

Unless Paizo makes non-casters with actual Extraordinary abilities, we won't be able to see classes like the rogue and fighter ever hope to reach tier 2.

If you allow Ex to be Extraordinary then you will have a shot.

I see nothing wrong with very high level rogues and fighters just becoming supernatural either. If magic is a law of physics in D&D, why can't some talented individuals - high level adventurers, in other words - learn how to tap into that force on an instinctive level?

For example, Shadowdancers in my opinion should not be a prestige class - it should just be something that high level rogues get to do automatically, along with continuing their sneak attack progression and talents. Tome of Magic all but comes out and says this.

[Korahir]

Although the dialogue here is already going strong, I'm compelled to leave these here.

The Tier List(s)...

...For Pathfinder

the thing i am missing in all threads (including this one):

how about path of war (by dreamscarred press)? are they as expected tier 3-ish or lower?

[Eldaran]

the thing i am missing in all threads (including this one):

how about path of war (by dreamscarred press)? are they as expected tier 3-ish or lower?

Definitely a strong tier 3. There's a lot more versatility in their maneuvers than in ToB, as well as the high number readied and good class features besides the maneuvers.

[caimbuel]

Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard.

Tier 2: Oracle, Psion, Sorceror, Summoner.

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ninja, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Rogue, Wilder.

Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, Soulknife.

Tier 5: Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk.

IMO over the last few years I have come to believe witch is Tier 2, spell selection is just not at a wizards level, but I dont think tier 2 is anything to sneeze at. And I put druid at tier 2 for the same reason. Oracle and sorcerer are tier 1 if you allow Paragon Surge. Rogue is tier 5, tho to be fair I think the tier system may need a lower tier for fighter, monk and rogue. There is little they bring to a table that another class cant do easier, with better mechanics. Lastly Ninja is alot better then the rogue but still is tier 4 at best due to how sneak attack is a very sub par mechanic, I miss the iconic DW halfling rogue but with how sneak attack works, combined with 3/4 BAB and no in class way to raise BAB, a two handed half orc just works better.

The 10 new hybrid classes will be out soon and this will shake up this list, as well as unchained is supposed to bring modular swap outs for some of these problem children.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I see nothing wrong with very high level rogues and fighters just becoming supernatural either. If magic is a law of physics in D&D, why can't some talented individuals - high level adventurers, in other words - learn how to tap into that force on an instinctive level?

For example, Shadowdancers in my opinion should not be a prestige class - it should just be something that high level rogues get to do automatically, along with continuing their sneak attack progression and talents. Tome of Magic all but comes out and says this.

I can dig this, but I like a non-magical approach too.

I really think there should be three groups, common abilities, non-magical physic defying abilities, and magical physics defying abilities.

This way everyone can eat their cake.

You can have Batman, Beowulf, and Professor X all in the same game... Or you can have none of them, some of them, or whatever combination the DM and players want.

[Giddonihah]

Definitely a strong tier 3. There's a lot more versatility in their maneuvers than in ToB, as well as the high number readied and good class features besides the maneuvers.

Relatedly using Path of War should bring Fighters up a Tier (or two), as they get enough feats to become pseudo Initiators themselves. Other Martials also benefit, but they don't have as many feats to spare on Martial Training compared to the Fighter that can actually take the line of feats several times.

I've always wondered why we define Tier2 as the "break the game in limited ways' tier, cause Bards are certainly capable of that, but they sit a tier lower, it really should be the '9th lvl casters that don't quite measure up' tier.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I've always wondered why we define Tier2 as the "break the game in limited ways' tier, cause Bards are certainly capable of that, but they sit a tier lower, it really should be the '9th lvl casters that don't quite measure up' tier.

That's really just a shorthand way of putting it, though. Tier 2 is more closely defined like this: "has the capability to output as much power as a tier 1 class, but with less flexibility." A good bard may be able to break the game in a handful of ways, but those are limited to a handful of situations, while an average sorcerer is still stronger than a bard, and an average wizard has just as much power output as a sorcerer, but has more ways of using that power.

On a similar note, the wizard only needs a night to prepare; the sorcerer needs several levels, and the bard may never get the tools the other two are planning to use at all.

[Dalebert]

Normally I'm reluctant to take after MMOs (4.0 bleh!) but I do think a rogue revamp could learn a thing or two from WoW rogues. They should generally be able to dish out steady damage in HtH better than "tanks" but be more vulnerable and need to fight smarter. This should be more interesting than just sneak attack damage, which is very limited as has been pointed out. There could be specializations like the three trees in WoW--one that focuses on sneaking and attacking from surprise, one that's more direct combat but sort of dirty fighting with two weapons, special bleed maneuvers, attacks that do stat damage, etc. No one should get everything, of course, but again it depends on how you specialize. In PF that might be represented by archetypes.

Meanwhile, "tanks" should at best just be okay at dishing out damage but could have more variety in ways to endure a tough fight and protect themselves better while being able to draw heat away from more vulnerable allies. I kind of like those sorts of specializations in MMOs. They just need to no turn it into a generic video game like 4.0 did. I think they got carried away with making sure everyone was exactly equal to the point of boring.

[Psyren]

You can have Batman, Beowulf, and Professor X all in the same game... Or you can have none of them, some of them, or whatever combination the DM and players want.

Batman isn't really all that Ex though; he relies on a combination of mundane skill, high intelligence and extremely high WBL. He also has a Lazarus Pit in the Batcave, which is almost certainly a Magical Location.

And Beowulf isn't wholly mundane either. He may not be entirely human (templated) and vs. Grendel's mom he used not one but two magic swords.

And Professor X is pretty much a regular caster, not somebody who instinctually unlocked supernatural technique through physical mastery.

***

What I'm referring to is more along the lines of Sakashima The Impostor. I would expect a high-level Rogue to be able to mimic someone to that degree - we already see a touch of it in their Disguise and UMD skills, as well as in the Chameleon and Factotum classes. That's the kind of thing a high-level rogue should be able to do.

Meanwhile I'd expect a high-level fighter to have abilities like Stonebrow (inspires everyone around him to fight better by fighting), or a ranged high-level fighter would be like Ishi-Ishi (can AoO spellcasters at range who try doing anything within a radius around him.) Things like that.

The first would be Su while the latter two would probably be Ex but they would still let those classes do something special.

[squiggit]

I would expect a high-level Rogue to be able to mimic someone to that degree

IIRC there's a PrC in pathfinder that makes you so good at assuming someone else's identity that scrying the location of that person reveals you instead. Nothing really helpful in the core class though.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Batman isn't really all that Ex though; he relies on a combination of mundane skill, high intelligence and extremely high WBL. He also has a Lazarus Pit in the Batcave, which is almost certainly a Magical Location.

And Beowulf isn't wholly mundane either. He may not be entirely human (templated) and vs. Grendel's mom he used not one but two magic swords.

And Professor X is pretty much a regular caster, not somebody who instinctually unlocked supernatural technique through physical mastery.

***

What I'm referring to is more along the lines of Sakashima The Impostor. I would expect a high-level Rogue to be able to mimic someone to that degree - we already see a touch of it in their Disguise and UMD skills, as well as in the Chameleon and Factotum classes. That's the kind of thing a high-level rogue should be able to do.

Meanwhile I'd expect a high-level fighter to have abilities like Stonebrow (inspires everyone around him to fight better by fighting), or a ranged high-level fighter would be like Ishi-Ishi (can AoO spellcasters at range who try doing anything within a radius around him.) Things like that.

The first would be Su while the latter two would probably be Ex but they would still let those classes do something special.

Sorry I should have explained something.

Batman: Common Man being awesome.

Beowulf: Ex man being awesome.

Jean Grey (should have used her, she kicks Prof X out of the water): Magical woman being awesome.

So you have all three types that people can be. If Batman can be amazing it really doesn't matter if Beowulf and Jean Grey (Phoenix) can break physics... If all three types are balanced against the world and such.

It can be hard but doable, games of 3.P where everyone is a tier 3 and 2 work just fine.

[Psyren]

IIRC there's a PrC in pathfinder that makes you so good at assuming someone else's identity that scrying the location of that person reveals you instead. Nothing really helpful in the core class though.

For High Level Rogue, I would expect Assassin, Shadowdancer (buffed a bit),and Chameleon (toned down a bit - closer to Factotum as far as the "spellcasting") to all be separate archetypes, among others.

Really, 4e had the right idea with Paragon Paths, they just didn't do nearly enough to differentiate them from one another, because they were chained to the same AWED mechanic for every class they made and power sources were nothing more than fluff.

Sorry I should have explained something.

Batman: Common Man being awesome.

Beowulf: Ex man being awesome.

Jean Grey (should have used her, she kicks Prof X out of the water): Magical woman being awesome.

I know what you're saying, but Batman isn't really "common man being awesome." He's just "really rich common man who was able to afford the best training and gear." Take all that away and he's just a pretty smart guy with much less ability to act on his plans.

Beowulf's only Ex ability is his super strength - not enough to get him above T4 by itself, and he ends up having to rely on magic items to succeed just as you'd expect from a T4.

[squiggit]

Batman is kind of a bad example, given that he has hyper inflated WbL and plot armor backing him up to stay competitive.

Really, 4e had the right idea with Paragon Paths, they just didn't do nearly enough to differentiate them from one another

That kinda sums up the whole game. WotC were clearly very aware of the problems they had with 3.5 when they built their new system, especially compared to Paizo. They just didn't spend nearly enough time refining it and giving the different classes some life to them rather than putting every class on the same model.

[Urpriest]

You're implicitly doing so by envisioning some sort of "best X" competition. The fact that a Ninja, Investigator or Alchemist can out-rogue the rogue means diddly if nobody is playing one. The question then becomes "can someone who simply wants to be a rogue be a competent skillmonkey" - and the answer is yes.

Remember, the Tier System rates classes, not characters. The question is not "can someone who simply wants to be a rogue be a competent skillmonkey", it's "why should someone who wants to play a competent skillmonkey play a rogue". In short, what problem-solving resources does the rogue class give a player that other classes do not?

[Psyren]

Remember, the Tier System rates classes, not characters. The question is not "can someone who simply wants to be a rogue be a competent skillmonkey", it's "why should someone who wants to play a competent skillmonkey play a rogue". In short, what problem-solving resources does the rogue class give a player that other classes do not?

The erroneous part of your question is "that other classes do not" - the fact that multiple classes can do a thing is irrelevant. All that matters is "do you want to do X" and "can a rogue do X" - if the answer to both is yes, rogue is a viable choice for you, one among many.

We have objective benchmarks to compare every class to - the CRB gives you the DCs for all kinds of skill checks, just like it gives you the stats for all kinds of monsters. With PC WBL, the rogue can meet (and fight) all of them. The fact that other classes can do it more easily or in more ways is irrelevant - if you want to play a rogue you will not arbitrarily fail.

So to answer your question - "why would someone who wants to play a competent skillmonkey play a rogue" - the answer is simply "because rogue is a competent skillmonkey." It's not the most competent, but it is competent.

[AMFV]

The erroneous part of your question is "that other classes do not" - the fact that multiple classes can do a thing is irrelevant. All that matters is "do you want to do X" and "can a rogue do X" - if the answer to both is yes, rogue is a viable choice for you, one among many.

We have objective benchmarks to compare every class to - the CRB gives you the DCs for all kinds of skill checks, just like it gives you the stats for all kinds of monsters. With PC WBL, the rogue can meet (and fight) all of them. The fact that other classes can do it more easily or in more ways is irrelevant - if you want to play a rogue you will not arbitrarily fail.

So to answer your question - "why would someone who wants to play a competent skillmonkey play a rogue" - the answer is simply "because rogue is a competent skillmonkey." It's not the most competent, but it is competent.

The problem is that a Tier 4 can be competent at something, yet a tier 3 can be hypercompetent at one thing. Which is something that it's in the Tier threads but I've not seen it brought up here.

[Larkas]

The problem is that a Tier 4 can be competent at something, yet a tier 3 can be hypercompetent at one thing. Which is something that it's in the Tier threads but I've not seen it brought up here.

Oh, AMFV-senpai, you'll make me cry if you keep ignoring me like that.

About the rogue, almost no one place it in T3. They simply don't live up to the expectations of the tier, which are, and I quote, "capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area". I think no one disputes that they aren't capable of doing any one thing quite well, so let's focus on the second definition. Can they do many things? Certainly. Can the do ALL things? Nope. That's it. They are not fit for T3. They qualify easily for T4, however, which is reserved for classes "capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining". Of course, with proper optimization, characters can jump tiers, but the system is about the class, not any one character.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing for a rogue to be T3, if that's what you're talking about.

[Psyren]

The problem is that a Tier 4 can be competent at something, yet a tier 3 can be hypercompetent at one thing. Which is something that it's in the Tier threads but I've not seen it brought up here.

That's not a "problem", it's just a thing. A sorcerer can blow a warlock out of the water, yet some people just want to be a warlock. A cleric can destroy a barbarian in combat, yet some people just want to be a barbarian. Again, "higher tier that can do X" is not itself a reason to throw out "lower tier that can do X."

(That is, it may be a reason for some people, but not for everyone.)

[AMFV]

That's not a "problem", it's just a thing. A sorcerer can blow a warlock out of the water, yet some people just want to be a warlock. A cleric can destroy a barbarian in combat, yet some people just want to be a barbarian. Again, "higher tier that can do X" is not itself a reason to throw out "lower tier that can do X."

(That is, it may be a reason for some people, but not for everyone.)

Well I was saying is that it's important for rating the rogue, even if the rogue is a competent skill monkey, they have to more competent than the other skill monkeys to qualify for Tier 3. The other classes DO matter because it is a comparative scale, we aren't basing our scale on some notional unit we're comparing the classes to each other.

I personally as I said, loathe the tier list, since it measures two things on the same scale (and not always very well) and because producing challenges is more based on targeting niches and specific player preparation as opposed to bringing everybody close to the same tier.

Oh, AMFV-senpai, you'll make me cry if you keep ignoring me like that.

Shhh, we can't have people know you came up with things first if I'm going to be able to take credit for it later. That's just not feasible.

[9mm]

Extreme optimization can allow Rogues to be tier 2.

No they really can't.

Rogue IS good at combat. Knife master makes their sneak attack dmg even higher (d8 with knife) and sneak attack scales better than trying to pump str. A rogue can effectively ignore strength and focus on dex and sneak attack. They can flank to hit, there are actually multiple tricks they can get.

Unfortunately, the ways to GET sneak attack went down. Not only does flanking foil exist, but it's harder to get into position to flank due to how the acrobatics check changed.

Did you know rogue can get vanishing trick?

but don't have the Ki pool to use it. The Ninja trick rogue talent specifically calls this out, unless you are dipping monk, you can't spend the ki to go invisible.

[caimbuel]

A cleric can destroy a barbarian in combat

That AM Pouncing from 360' on raging mount doing interiative lance charge attacks, mince meats anything that stands around, probably the best rocket tag melee I have ever seen.

But then I think a barb is the best against non-evil, and pally for evil, not sure what the other non casters are for. Epic skills, splash psionics like SLA's, flat give non casters spell like abilities as quickened actions. If you can get a hold of Kithfinder it has a refreshing idea on what is balanced, and you bring those non casters to protect your casting butt from lvl 1 to 20.

[Psyren]

Well I was saying is that it's important for rating the rogue, even if the rogue is a competent skill monkey, they have to more competent than the other skill monkeys to qualify for Tier 3.
...
The other classes DO matter because it is a comparative scale, we aren't basing our scale on some notional unit we're comparing the classes to each other.

No, it's really not. There is actually a notional unit, in fact there are two - the CR system, and skill check DCs.

So while I actually agree with you that they're not T3 (not without a good amount of optimization anyway), that's not what T3 means. T3 means "really good at one thing, and decent at these other things when the thing you're really good at isn't called for." Again, how competent you are compared to other classes has nothing to do with it - effectiveness is measured by static DCs and the entries in the Bestiary.

You can rank the various classes based on how well they perform against this impartial scale, but there is in fact a baseline point at which you can say "this class is effective." And the fact that other classes are equally or more effective does not take that effectiveness away from any of the others.

Unfortunately, the ways to GET sneak attack went down. Not only does flanking foil exist, but it's harder to get into position to flank due to how the acrobatics check changed.

Flanking Foil is far from a silver bullet. Almost no monster has it unless the DM gives it to them (in which case he's pretty directly trying to hose the rogue anyway) and it also relies on hitting the rogue first, so just use a reach weapon and lunge if you must melee.

but don't have the Ki pool to use it. The Ninja trick rogue talent specifically calls this out, unless you are dipping monk, you can't spend the ki to go invisible.

You don't have to dip, there is a ki pool rogue talent. Not what I would pick as a talent personally but it is there.

That AM Pouncing from 360' on raging mount doing interiative lance charge attacks, mince meats anything that stands around, probably the best rocket tag melee I have ever seen.

Are you trying to say that a barbarian is better in melee than a cleric?

[AMFV]

No, it's really not. There is actually a notional unit, in fact there are two - the CR system, and skill check DCs.

So while I actually agree with you that they're not T3 (not without a good amount of optimization anyway), that's not what T3 means. T3 means "really good at one thing, and decent at these other things when the thing you're really good at isn't called for." Again, how competent you are compared to other classes has nothing to do with it - effectiveness is measured by static DCs and the entries in the Bestiary.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

I'm not trying to be overly pedantic, I'm just pointing out that "being useful" and "decent" are not exactly synonymous. Although to be fair since this is being started from scratch some difference in definitions might be needed. But those should be posted, in fact I think that the tier definitions may need to shift, since they are not exactly the same in this system as Tier 6 ceases to exist.

Also Tiers are NOT measured against CR or static DC.

Spoiler: Tier System

Show

A: The Tier System is not specifically ranking Power or Versitility (though those are what ends up being the big factors). It's ranking the ability of a class to achieve what you want in any given situation. Highly versitile classes will be more likely to efficiently apply what power they have to the situation, while very powerful classes will be able to REALLY help in specific situations. Classes that are both versitile and powerful will very easily get what they want by being very likely to have a very powerful solution to the current problem. This is what matters most for balance.

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Okay, so, here we go.

Tier 6: A Commoner. Situation 1: If he's REALLY optimized, he could be a threat to the dragon, but a single attack from the dragon could take him out too. He can't really offer help getting to said dragon. He could fill up the entire cave with chickens, but that's probably not a good idea. Really, he's dead weight unless his build was perfectly optimized for this situation (see my Commoner charger build for an example). Situation 2: Well, without any stealth abilities or diplomacy, he's not too handy here, again unless he's been exactly optimized for this precise thing (such as through Martial Study to get Diplomacy). Really, again his class isn't going to help much here. Situation 3: Again, no help from his class, though the chicken thing might be amusing if you're creative.

Tier 5: A Fighter. Situation 1: If he's optimized for this sort of thing (a tripper might have trouble, though a charger would be handy if he could get off a clear shot, and an archer would likely work) he can be a threat during the main fight, but he's probably just about useless for sneaking down through the cave and avoiding any traps the dragon has set out without alerting said dragon. Most likely the party Rogue would want to hide him in a bag of holding or something. Once in the fight if he's optimized he'll be solid, but if not (if he's a traditional SAB build or a dual weilding monkey grip type) he's going to be a liability in the combat (though not as bad as the Commoner). Situation 2: As the commoner before, his class really won't help here. His class just doesn't provide any useful tools for the job. It's possible (but very unlikely) that he's optimized in a way that helps in this situation, just as with the Commoner. Situation 3: Again, his class doesn't help much, but at least he could be pretty useful during the main battle as a front line trooper of some sort. Hack up the enemy and rack up a body count.

Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

Tier 3: The Beguiler. Situation 1: Again, getting through the cave is easy, perhaps easier with spell support. And again, if he's really prepared in advance, Shivering Touch via UMD is a possibility. But he's also got spells that could be quite useful here depending on the situation, and if he's optimized heavily, this is going to be pretty easy... Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps? Or Earth Dreamer? Either way, he's got a lot of available options, though like the Rogue he's somewhat squishy (and that Dragon won't fall for many illusions with his Blindsense) so he still needs that party support. Situation 2: Again, with his skills he's all over this one, plus the added ability to cast spells like charm makes this one much easier, allowing him to make contacts in the city quickly while he figures out where this guy is. Situation 3: Like the Rogue, he can get strategic advantages and be all over the Diplomacy. He's not quite as good at assassinating people if he takes that route (though sneaking up invisible and then using a coup de gras with a scythe is pretty darn effective), but using illusions during the fight will create some serious chaos in his favor. A single illusion of a wall of fire can really disrupt enemy formations, for example.

Tier 2: The Sorcerer. Situation 1: It really depends on the Sorcerer's spell load out. If he's got Greater Floating Disk, Spectral Hand, and Shivering Touch, this one's going to be easy as pie, since he can just float down (and carry his party in the process) to avoid many traps, then nail the dragon in one shot from a distance. If he doesn't he'd need scrolls with the same issues that the UMD Rogue and Beguiler would need. If he's got Explosive Runes he could create a bomb that would take out the Dragon in one shot. If he's got Polymorph he could turn the party melee into a Hydra for extra damage. If he's got Alter Self he could turn himself into a Skulk to get down there sneakily. Certainly, it's possible that the Sorcerer could own this scenario... if he has the right spells known. That's always the hard part for a Sorcerer. Situation 2: Again, depends on the spell. Does he have divinations that will help him know who's part of the resistance and who's actually an evil spy for the Tyranical Govenerment? Does he have charm? Alter Self would help a ton here too for disguise purposes if he has it. Once again, the options exist that could totally make this easy, but he might not have those options. Runestaffs would help a bit, but not that much. Scrolls would help too, but that requires access to them and good long term preparation. Situation 3: Again, does he have Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone to make fortifications? Does he have Wall of Fire to disrupt the battlefield? How about Mind Rape and Love's Pain to kill off the enemy commanders without any ability to stop him? Does he have Blinding Glory on his spell list, or Shapechange, or Gate? Well, maybe. He's got the power, but if his spells known don't apply here he can't do much. So, maybe he dominates this one, maybe not.

Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call. Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there. Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.

So yeah, as you move up the Tiers you go from weak, unadaptable, and predictable (that Commoner's got very few useful options) to strong, adaptable, and unpredictable (who knows what that Wizard is going to do?). A Wizard can always apply a great deal of strength very efficiently, whether it's Shivering Touch on the Dragon or Blinding Glory on an enemy army. The Sorcerer has the power, but he may not have power that he can actually apply to the situation. The Beguiler has even less raw power and may have to use UMD to pull it off. The Rogue is even further along that line. And the Fighter has power in very specific areas which are less likely to be useful in a given situation.

So yeah, that's really what the Tiers are about. How much does this class enable you to achieve what you want in a given situation? The more versitile your power, the more likely that the answer to that question is "a lot." If you've got tons of power and limited versitility (that's you, Sorcerers and charging Barbarians) then sometimes the answer is a lot, but sometimes it's not much. If you've got tons of versitility but limited power (hi, Rogue!) then it's often "a decent amount." If you've got little of both (Commoner!) then yeah, it's often "it doesn't."

And of course reversing that and applying it to DMs, you get "how many effective options does this class give for solving whatever encounters I throw at them?" For Commoners, the answer may be none. For Fighters, it's sometimes none, sometimes 1, maybe 2, but you generally know in advance what it will be (if he's got Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain and all that, he's probably going to be tripping stuff, just a hint). For Wizards, it's tons, and they're all really potent, and you have no idea how he's going to do it. Does he blind the enemy army or assassinate all its leaders or turn into a Solar and just arbitrarily win the battle? There's no way to know until he memorizes his spells for the day (and even then you might not see it coming).

As you can see the tier system is examining ability to resolve scenarios not ability to deal with a specific CR encounter or specific skill challenges.

Edit: The reason why this is important is because it is easy to optimize for specific CR challenges and skill DCs in ways that would produce really skewed results for the tier system, which is why it's easier to look at potential solutions to a series of scenarios.

[caimbuel]

Are you trying to say that a barbarian is better in melee than a cleric?

Depends on the game, depends on how much buff time we are talking. A good mounted raging barb will dish enough damage to plain kill the cleric with all the splat to cherry pick from in pathfinder. In 3.5 the ungodly cleric can solo walk alot of dungeons if ran right. Nerf to persistant spell and a few other chages switched this power curve IMO. Does that mean a Barb should be higher then tier 4, probably not, swinging a big weapon for big damage does not "win" a game. Its still those spells that can literally change a campaign, as we well know.

YMMV

[Psyren]

As you can see the tier system is examining ability to resolve scenarios not ability to deal with a specific CR encounter or specific skill challenges.

Exactly - CR and DCs are the unit of measurement for a scenario. It's how you know, for example, the difference in difficulty between the three orcs roughing up the halfling in the back alley, and the vampire that preys upon the village every night before returning to his foreboding castle during the day. It's also how you know the difference between eavesdropping on the merchant's guards who are getting drunk in the tavern, and sneaking into the grand vizier's royal vault. And so on.

Depends on the game, depends on how much buff time we are talking. A good mounted raging barb will dish enough damage to plain kill the cleric with all the splat to cherry pick from in pathfinder.

The game is Pathfinder, and while the removal of persistent spell does hurt CoDzilla it by no means removes it.

[AMFV]

Exactly - CR and DCs are the unit of measurement for a scenario. It's how you know, for example, the difference in difficulty between the three orcs roughing up the halfling in the back alley, and the vampire that preys upon the village every night before returning to his foreboding castle during the day. It's also how you know the difference between eavesdropping on the merchant's guards who are getting drunk in the tavern, and sneaking into the grand vizier's royal vault. And so on.

If you'll note in the spoiler text, he didn't use them. DCs again are skewed, and they're not a good representation at all levels. The question isn't can a rogue disarm all the traps (because he should be able to do that), but can he also be useful in other skillful scenarios.

In fact:

Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

That's not really changed in Pathinder. I'm not arguing the rogue is a different tier, just arguing about measuring things. As I've said I don't like the system I just like arguing.

[Psyren]

If you'll note in the spoiler text, he didn't use them.

He did not say "level X rogue vs. CR Y dragon," no. But it's impossible to "not use them" - they are a foundation of the game. If you sent a level 1 wizard or level 1 druid through those challenges, the only one they'd have a decent chance of making it through alive is the second one - does that mean they aren't T1?

[AMFV]

He did not say "level X rogue vs. CR Y dragon," no. But it's impossible to "not use them" - they are a foundation of the game. If you sent a level 1 wizard or level 1 druid through those challenges, the only one they'd have a decent chance of making it through alive is the second one - does that mean they aren't T1?

Well obviously we aren't using scenarios significantly outside the CR system, but being able to defeat a CR 25 at ECL 1 does not affect your position on the tier system. I mean you could have a Hulking Hurler that could kill any CR thing and it would still be Tier 4.

[Anlashok]

Again, "higher tier that can do X" is not itself a reason to throw out "lower tier that can do X."

I disagree to an extent. Saying "Why play a barbarian when you can be a wizard" might fly with that argument, but that's simply not the case in all of these scenarios. Throwing out the Warrior because the Fighter exists is perfectly valid, because the latter does everything the former does in similar ways but better.

[Psyren]

Well obviously we aren't using scenarios significantly outside the CR system, but being able to defeat a CR 25 at ECL 1 does not affect your position on the tier system. I mean you could have a Hulking Hurler that could kill any CR thing and it would still be Tier 4.

It sounds like you agree with me then - there are CR and DC assumptions being made in the various scenarios, such that a vastly under-leveled character is not expected to be put through them. Hence my earlier statement - "it is not possible to 'not use' these concepts" - they are baseline assumptions of the entire game.

I disagree to an extent. Saying "Why play a barbarian when you can be a wizard" might fly with that argument, but that's simply not the case in all of these scenarios. Throwing out the Warrior because the Fighter exists is perfectly valid, because the latter does everything the former does in similar ways but better.

Warrior is not a PC class so you are quite justified in throwing it out.