Pathfinder Tier List

[9mm]

I think you might be underestimating the power of making all ranged attacks resolve vs touch AC. In my experience gunslingers put out significantly more ranged dpr than archer rangers since they'll basically auto-hit on every attack, which means they can pile on attack penalties without being seriously affected - TWF, rapid shot, double-barreled guns etc.

points of order.
1 Those touch attacks are a function of the guns for the most part not the gunslinger.
2 the vast amount of TWF pistol users are doing it wrong.

A Gunslinger is a fighter speced into archery using bizarre bows. Nothing more, nothing less.

[squiggit]

I feel like a lot of people end up really exaggerating gunslinger power. Yeah, you do more damage than archers, but not to the point I often see it started (where gunslingers are treated as uberchargers and rangers as cheeseless pixie hulking hurlers).

The relative difficulty the class has enabling its damage holds it significantly however and largely mitigates the extra damage it deals. Similar in a lot of ways to Fighter vs Barb, where the former hits harder in a vacuum (in Pathfinder) but has a lot more trouble delivering its damage (because it lacks things like Pounce or Superstitious). In turn, the double barrel pistol gunslinger has a much shorter range and fewer tools to deal with enemies threatening it.

[Psyren]

That's still 12 more attacks than a bow user will get.

Assuming by "bow user" you mean "ranger," Freedom of Movement, remember? (Plus they have to get past the ranger's Large bodyguard to begin with.)

"The gunslinger isn't tier 4 because he can be grappled" doesn't strike me as a very convincing argument, especially when you consider that the gunslinger will have a very healthy CMD with full BAB and a high dexterity - he also has the skill points to pick up Escape Artist if he really things constant grappling is going to be a concern.

But "the gunslinger isn't T4 because he is very easy to shut down by getting into melee range" is.

Escape Artist is highly inefficient as it's a standard action to get free (wasting at least one of your turns), plus the DC gets painful fast due to CMD scaling. It's a viable tactic for a ranger, who can do it as an immediate, with a big bonus to boot (assuming he even got grappled to begin with - pet and FoM again.) Even a rogue, another T4, can stay out of this kind of trouble better than a gunslinger can. It's not a very good fallback for them.

I still maintain that the gunslinger is an excellent ranged combatant, and so should qualify as tier 4 since he "does one thing quite well".

My point is that he does half of one thing well. Being great at ranged damage isn't much use when you're that easy to neutralize, just like a fighter being good at melee doesn't help without pounce because his opponent can simply keep moving away and prevent him from getting a full attack off. These are pretty basic strategies.

They have nothing to increase their speed. They have nothing to escape from melee more easily. They have nothing to help them escape a grapple or reload in one. I say T5 because the class does not help you do the thing it's designed to do, i.e. stay at ranged. You must rely exclusively on the kindness of the party and DM.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Assuming by "bow user" you mean "ranger," Freedom of Movement, remember? (Plus they have to get past the ranger's Large bodyguard to begin with.)



But "the gunslinger isn't T4 because he is very easy to shut down by getting into melee range" is.

Escape Artist is highly inefficient as it's a standard action to get free (wasting at least one of your turns), plus the DC gets painful fast due to CMD scaling. It's a viable tactic for a ranger, who can do it as an immediate, with a big bonus to boot (assuming he even got grappled to begin with - pet and FoM again.) Even a rogue, another T4, can stay out of this kind of trouble better than a gunslinger can. It's not a very good fallback for them.



My point is that he does half of one thing well. Being great at ranged damage isn't much use when you're that easy to neutralize, just like a fighter being good at melee doesn't help without pounce because his opponent can simply keep moving away and prevent him from getting a full attack off. These are pretty basic strategies.

They have nothing to increase their speed. They have nothing to escape from melee more easily. They have nothing to help them escape a grapple or reload in one. I say T5 because the class does not help you do the thing it's designed to do, i.e. stay at ranged. You must rely exclusively on the kindness of the party and DM.

I hate to agree with Psyren but he is right. Ranged combat is not just about damage.

(That was a lie, I actually have no feelings for or against agreeing with him... I just typed that for dramatic effect. I blame the House marathon I'm watching)

It would be like saying... The fighter is tier 4 because he is a good at crowd control. Sure the fighter has some of the biggest to hit numbers... But the math doesn't work in his favor and monsters will shut him down more often than not. So is the fighter really good at that one thing? No.

Obviously Lore Warden is the exception, my level 3 lore warden (tier 4 character... Tier 3 PC once I hit level 9...) had a +14 to trip and I'm not even really that optimized (no favored race bonuses).

[Kudaku]

I originally wrote up a long reply, but truth be told I don't really see much point in arguing this. While I understand your arguments, I still see the gunslinger as a tier 4 - it certainly has weaknesses like any classes do, but I don't see those weaknesses as sufficiently crippling to keep it from doing what it does very well indeed.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Edit:

I feel like a lot of people end up really exaggerating gunslinger power. Yeah, you do more damage than archers, but not to the point I often see it started (where gunslingers are treated as uberchargers and rangers as cheeseless pixie hulking hurlers).

It depends on how much optimization you're willing to use really. If you make a TWF pistol build in the early teens and go all out to stack on as many extra attacks as possible, gunslingers are able to dish out truly impractical amounts of damage. As an example, a 12th level hasted gunslinger can make 14 attacks a round and expect to hit on the majority of them. A lot of the fault for that lie with double-barreled weapons though. Not sure who thought "double the attacks for a -4 penalty" was a good idea for a class that has an easier time hitting his target than any other class in the game.

[Psyren]

Let's just agree to disagree.

Okay, fine by me.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I originally wrote up a long reply, but truth be told I don't really see much point in arguing this. While I understand your arguments, I still see the gunslinger as a tier 4 - it certainly has weaknesses like any classes do, but I don't see those weaknesses as sufficiently crippling to keep it from doing what it does very well indeed.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Edit:

It depends on how much optimization you're willing to use really. If you make a TWF pistol build in the early teens and go all out to stack on as many extra attacks as possible, gunslingers are able to dish out truly impractical amounts of damage. As an example, a 12th level hasted gunslinger can make 14 attacks a round and expect to hit on the majority of them. A lot of the fault for that lie with double-barreled weapons though. Not sure who thought "double the attacks for a -4 penalty" was a good idea for a class that has an easier time hitting his target than any other class in the game.

Though, it is so easy to shut down the gunslinger, can you really say they are tier 4?

Damage doesn't matter if you can't keep that damage up. So although their damage potential can hit them into tier 4, their practical use won't allow them to go above tier 5.

Besides optimization isn't part of the tier list. You can optimize anything (almost) up a tier. The tier list is about the class itself, not high optimization.

[Larkas]

Though, it is so easy to shut down the gunslinger, can you really say they are tier 4?

Damage doesn't matter if you can't keep that damage up. So although their damage potential can hit them into tier 4, their practical use won't allow them to go above tier 5.

Besides optimization isn't part of the tier list. You can optimize anything (almost) up a tier. The tier list is about the class itself, not high optimization.

Can't you say the same of the T4 Barbarian?

[Kudaku]

Though, it is so easy to shut down the gunslinger, can you really say they are tier 4?

Damage doesn't matter if you can't keep that damage up. So although their damage potential can hit them into tier 4, their practical use won't allow them to go above tier 5.

Besides optimization isn't part of the tier list. You can optimize anything (almost) up a tier. The tier list is about the class itself, not high optimization.

My answer on optimization wasn't related to gunslinger tiers but rather "that people exaggerate the damage output of gunslingers" in general. I kind of hoped I made that clear by quoting the full post.

[Psyren]

Can't you say the same of the T4 Barbarian?

Pounce is generally enough to get melee to T4 because the biggest barrier to melee damage is staying out of melee. Running from a fighter is a good strategy; running from a barbarian means you die tired.

Furthermore, the class has tools to actually keep you in melee and keep you a threat once there. PF Barbarians can fly even without magic items if they need to, or cut through battlefield control, or ignore difficult terrain, or fight with their weapons taken away etc.

The gunslinger's tools meanwhile - when they are focused on damage and not quirky things like shooting locks or cauterizing wounds - focus entirely on numbers and not the ancillary conditions needed to achieve those numbers.

To be T4 there has to be more synergy between the class features and the class role than "this one goes up to 11 gives you more numbers."

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Can't you say the same of the T4 Barbarian?

Yes one could make a case for the barbarian not being t4. Though they have base class abilities that helps them overcome these weaknesses.

I could break the tiers down to 3 based on ease of shut down. This may be an overall better classification, though it would be based on no house rules and before and after the DM actively interfers with how the game was made to play.

Tier C: Able to be shut down easily and often. Poses no real challenge to the creatures or situations of the game unless the DM interfers on behalf the PC.

Example: Fighter, Cavilier, Monk

Tier B: Can be shut down sometimes but other times will have options and abilities that will keep them from being shut down.

Example: Sorcerer, Bard, and Ranger

Tier A: The game can't easily shut down these classes, though it may be possible with DM interference. No matter what the DM does the class will have a way to not be shut down if allowed to exercise this ability.

Wizard, Cleric, Witch

With optimization, deootimization, play style, and DM interference any class can go to different tiers. This will be based on JUST the base class and abilities from the base class.

Or something like that...

*typed barbarian instead of monk, was still thinking about the barbarian haha.

[Kudaku]

Furthermore, the class has tools to actually keep you in melee and keep you a threat once there. PF Barbarians can fly even without magic items if they need to, or cut through battlefield control, or ignore difficult terrain, or fight with their weapons taken away etc.

Do you mean the dragon totem? From what I can tell non-item based flying and pounce are mutually exclusive for the barbarian.

I'm not aware of any rage powers that allow barbarians to ignore difficult terrain - only thing that springs to mind is dragon style. Could you provide a source for this?

[PsyBomb]

Do you mean the dragon totem? From what I can tell non-item based flying and pounce are mutually exclusive for the barbarian.

I'm not aware of any rage powers that allow barbarians to ignore difficult terrain - only thing that springs to mind is dragon style. Could you provide a source for this?

Would have been, if it wasn't for the Totem Barbarian Archetype. It's a lot like Quinggong Monk, can go on anything with no drawbacks. In this case, it lets the Barbarian have multiple Totems.

[Kudaku]

Would have been, if it wasn't for the Totem Barbarian Archetype. It's a lot like Quinggong Monk, can go on anything with no drawbacks. In this case, it lets the Barbarian have multiple Totems.

Do you mean the Totem Warrior? The FAQ specifically states that you can only pick from one set of totem rage powers, which seems pretty definitive.

[Oazard]

Would have been, if it wasn't for the Totem Barbarian Archetype. It's a lot like Quinggong Monk, can go on anything with no drawbacks. In this case, it lets the Barbarian have multiple Totems.

No, it was an error from the Ultimate Combat. The Totem Barbarian Archetype does nothing.

EDIT: Ninja'ed by Kudaku.

[PsyBomb]

I stand corrected

[Psyren]

Do you mean the dragon totem? From what I can tell non-item based flying and pounce are mutually exclusive for the barbarian.

I'm not aware of any rage powers that allow barbarians to ignore difficult terrain - only thing that springs to mind is dragon style. Could you provide a source for this?

Didn't you just agree to disagree with me? I was speaking to Larkas.

To answer your questions anyway: flight allows you to ignore difficult terrain as you are no longer on the ground. As for pounce - this is extremely valuable as it is nearly impossible to replicate with items, while the others can more or less be replicated with wealth. And Barbarians of course can get by more easily than fighters can allocating wealth to such things as they have stronger innate defenses (e.g. better will and fort saves, ceterus paribus) and more utility from their rage powers.

[Kudaku]

Didn't you just agree to disagree with me?

On the gunslinger! I reserve the right to agree and/or disagree with you on other things.

I find it a bit disingenuous to imply (perhaps unintentionally?) that the barbarian can pounce, ignore difficult terrain and fly without magic at the same time though - either he picks beast totem for pounce (which is countered by difficult terrain or flying enemies to name a few) or he picks dragon totem for flight (losing pounce, meaning he loses massive amounts of DPR if his target is more than a five-foot step away).

[Elderand]

On the gunslinger! I reserve the right to agree and/or disagree with you on other things.

I find it a bit disingenuous to imply (perhaps unintentionally?) that the barbarian can pounce, ignore difficult terrain and fly without magic at the same time though - either he picks beast totem for pounce (which is countered by difficult terrain or flying enemies to name a few) or he picks dragon totem for flight (losing pounce, meaning he loses massive amounts of DPR if his target is more than a five-foot step away).

Discussions about tiers are like discussion about wizard, entirely disingenuous (aka shrodinger wizard) depending on which class any particular poster thinks belong to which tier.

[Psyren]

On the gunslinger! I reserve the right to agree and/or disagree with you on other things.

I find it a bit disingenuous to imply that the barbarian can pounce, ignore difficult terrain and fly without magic at the same time though - either he picks beast totem for pounce (which is countered by difficult terrain or flying enemies to name a few) or he picks dragon totem for flight (losing pounce, meaning he loses massive amounts of DPR if his target is more than a five-foot step away).

It's not disingenuous; you're not thinking nearly holistically enough. Remember, the overall point I made was "my class helps me perform my role" - that is the distinction between T4 and T5, because the definition of T4 is "do something quite well" while the definition of T5 is "do something not necessarily all that well."

Fighters, Monks and Gunslingers - their class helps them perform part of their role, the numbers part (Not even that much in the monk's case really, but at least they have more utility/defenses built in.) But the ancillary stuff - maintaining optimum range to deliver those numbers, or shoring up your defenses so you can reallocate your wealth to performing the same function - that is where they fall flat. Numbers alone are useless because if you're a T5 melee and your opponent can keep you at range, you will never achieve those numbers. Similarly, if you are a T5 ranged and your opponent can keep you in melee and rip you to shreds if you try attacking from there, you will never achieve those numbers. In both cases, the DM and party need to carry/accomodate you.

Spoiler: Detailed Analysis

Show

So you look at a vanilla Fighter (T5) - they need to spend wealth on melee weapon and armor as the bare minimum. They need to spend wealth on other defenses (saves especially) because even their strong save does not scale fast enough on its own to keep up with a nasty attack, never mind the weak ones. They need to spend wealth on movement modes like flight (and swimming in the right campaign) as well as just boosting landspeed in general so they can keep up. They need some consumables because even if there is someone who can heal or buff in the party, they may end up indisposed. And they probably want a ranged weapon and backup melee weapon (usually a light weapon in case they're swallowed) just in case.

Do any of their class features help ameliorate any of those costs? Answer - not a single one. Weapon Training and Armor Training - too slow and minor. Bravery - too narrow. Armor Mastery - useless by the time you get it. Weapon Mastery - good boost but too late. The only really good things they get are, of course, the feats - but unfortunately, quantity is not quality here and even the ones that fighters get early or exclusive access to are not that good.

Compare to a vanilla Barbarian (T4). Rage gives much bigger bonuses than Bravery and Weapon Training, the will save boost applies to everything instead of just fear. They also boost their already titanic fort save even higher, and even boost HP (which is most reflex saves). A barbarian can thus do without buying an item for his saving throws longer. He can buy that item to fly sooner than the Fighter can without having as many weaknesses as a result. Then we get to rage powers and the gap between tiers becomes clear. There are many traps here too, but also many that help the Barbarian perform its primary function - get in a monster's face and dish out as much pain as possible.

TL;DR - if a Fighter never had to close to melee, pass saving throws or even leave the ground in order to dish out melee damage, it would probably be T4. But they do, so they're not.

[Kudaku]

It's not disingenuous; you're not thinking nearly holistically enough. Remember, the overall point I made was "my class helps me perform my role" - that is the distinction between T4 and T5, because the definition of T4 is "do something quite well" while the definition of T5 is "do something not necessarily all that well."

Holistically is perhaps not the best word to use since that implies "seeing the class as a whole", yet "the whole barbarian" can't have both totem powers - he specifically has to choose between the two. Being without either dragon or beast totem means he's vulnerable to obvious and common counter-tactics - moving to avoid full attacks, or using flight and difficult terrain to limit his pounce options.

You previously argued that a class isn't competent at its job if it is very easy to shut it down by doing X. I don't really see how that argument isn't equally valid against a barbarian by either using flight magic v pouncing barbarians or denying full attacks v a flying barbarian?

[Psyren]

Holistically is perhaps not the best word to use since that implies "seeing the class as a whole", yet "the whole barbarian" can't have both totem powers - he specifically has to choose between the two. Being without either dragon or beast totem means he's vulnerable to obvious and common counter-tactics - moving to avoid full attacks, or using flight and difficult terrain to limit his pounce options.

You previously argued that a class isn't competent at its job if it is very easy to shut it down by doing X. I don't really see how that argument isn't equally valid against a barbarian by either using flight magic v pouncing barbarians, or mobility v a flying barbarian?

To summarize the big spoiler (which you obviously skipped ) - a barbarian can obtain flight via items, and can do so early on without sacrificing the core defenses or offenses that a fighter would.

A fighter meanwhile - even after he is able to buy flight later - is more or less unable to buy pounce.

[squiggit]

Holistically is perhaps not the best word to use since that implies "seeing the class as a whole", yet "the whole barbarian" can't have both totem powers - he specifically has to choose between the two. Being without either dragon or beast totem means he's vulnerable to obvious and common counter-tactics - moving to avoid full attacks, or using flight and difficult terrain to limit his pounce options.

You previously argued that a class isn't competent at its job if it is very easy to shut it down by doing X. I don't really see how that argument isn't equally valid against a barbarian by either using flight magic v pouncing barbarians, or mobility v a flying barbarian?

It does, and it's why the barbarian is only considered pretty good and not amazing, but there's still very clearly a large degree of difference between being at the mercy of every counter and being at the mercy of only a couple.

[Kudaku]

To summarize the big spoiler (which you obviously skipped ) - a barbarian can obtain flight via items, and can do so early on without sacrificing the core defenses or offenses that a fighter would.

A fighter meanwhile - even after he is able to buy flight later - is more or less unable to buy pounce.

I didn't skip it, but I was under the impression that the tier system generally tries to avoid WBL. If the barbarian can rely on using items to cover his weaknesses (no natural flight), why can't the gunslinger shore up his weaknesses (ring of freedom of action for example) to do the same? The gunslinger has excellent saves by default, is more or less SAD, has no pressing need for magical armor, and since he's targeting Touch AC he doesn't have a particularly high need for highly enchanted weapons - the difference between +1 reliable distance pistols and +3 reliable distance pistols is minor. He has plenty of money to spare compared to martial classes that plan to be in melee range.

It does, and it's why the barbarian is only considered pretty good and not amazing, but there's still very clearly a large degree of difference between being at the mercy of every counter and being at the mercy of only a couple.

Absolutely, but one page ago arguments were made that a class wasn't tier 4 because "it can be countered by grappling". I don't really see the difference between "the gunslinger avoids grappling by using magic items" and "the barbarian catches flying enemies using magic items".

[Psyren]

I didn't skip it, but I was under the impression that the tier system generally tries to avoid WBL. If the barbarian can rely on using items to cover his weaknesses (no natural flight), why can't the gunslinger shore up his weaknesses (ring of freedom of action for example) to do the same?

This is exactly why I said you need to think holistically. In general, there are three types of class features:

1) Those that give you a needed functionality to directly do your job(s).
2) Those that give you an ancillary functionality or defense, which lessens your reliance on items that do the same thing.
3) Those that do neither (either too weak or focused on something else entirely.)

Think of this as a very scaled down version of the "why each class is in its tier" thread.

Gunslinger's class features largely fall in either the first one (specifically, the ranged damage stuff) or the third one (things like "scoot item" or "cauterize wound" that are largely irrelevant to doing ranged damage.)

Their big problem is that they don't get enough 2 and must rely on items to fill that role - but they also need items for the normal stuff you need items for, like enhancing your gun, enhancing your armor, enhancing your stats, enhancing your saves etc.

That ring you mentioned for instance is 40k. They aren't even allowed to buy one until 11 (50% of WBL), and even then they have a lot of other gear competing for their purse strings by that point. Their class features do not help them manage that expense at all. Compare to a Ranger, who can easily do without such a ring - not only because they can just get a scroll or wand with the spell instead much more cheaply, but because they can even just escape grapples via their magic or avoid them entirely with their large-sized companion etc. etc.

the difference between +1 reliable distance pistols and +3 reliable distance pistols is minor.

You have an odd definition of "minor" - that second one is almost triple the cost of the first. And you aren't factoring in AC, concealment, saving throws, utility...

[Kudaku]

This is exactly why I said you need to think holistically. In general, there are three types of class features:

1) Those that give you a needed functionality to directly do your job(s).
2) Those that give you an ancillary functionality or defense, which lessens your reliance on items that do the same thing.
3) Those that do neither (either too weak or focused on something else entirely.)

Think of this as a very scaled down version of the "why each class is in its tier" thread.

Gunslinger's class features largely fall in either the first one (specifically, the ranged damage stuff) or the third one (things like "scoot item" or "cauterize wound" that are largely irrelevant to doing ranged damage.)

Their big problem is that they don't get enough 2 and must rely on items to fill that role - but they also need items for the normal stuff you need items for, like enhancing your gun, enhancing your armor, enhancing your stats, enhancing your saves etc.

That ring you mentioned for instance is 40k. They aren't even allowed to buy one until 11 (50% of WBL), and even then they have a lot of other gear competing for their purse strings by that point. Their class features do not help them manage that expense at all. Compare to a Ranger, who can easily do without such a ring - not only because they can just get a scroll or wand with the spell instead much more cheaply, but because they can even just escape grapples via their magic or avoid them entirely with their large-sized companion etc. etc.

I think I understand why we disagree on the class now - I agree with your description of class features sorted into three different groups - let's call them Offense, Defense/Utility, and Flavour. I find that the ranger is split fairly evenly between all three - he has decent offense (favored enemy, combat style), a decent defense (two good saves, spell list, 6 skill points/level), and some flavour mechanics that don't really contribute much (Endurance, Woodland Stride).

In comparison the barbarian is either extremely heavily loaded in offense (pounce) and lacking in utility (no flight) or good in offense (no pounce) and has some extra utility (flight).

Finally, I see the gunslinger heavily invested in Offense (dex to damage, touch attacks etc), with a fairly good but not amazing defense/utility (two strong saves and wisdom dependent, 4 skill ranks/level, decent AC and CMD via dex focus and Nimble) and a few flavour mechanics (blast lock, Scoot Unattended Object) that don't really contribute much.

In my experience the solid baseline offense/defense of the gunslinger means he's able to save WBL by avoiding expenses other martials have - since he's not in melee he doesn't have the same need for good armor and a miss chance, since he has extraordinary offense it's not as critical to get +x weapons ASAP and so on.

Edit: I did a bit of googling to seek other opinions and I found a fun post. The next day you seem to have changed your mind and call it a tier 5 class, but I don't see any debate or explanation for why the shift happened?

[Psyren]

Edit: I did a bit of googling to seek other opinions and I found a fun post.

Yep! I know the exact date I changed my mind too.

EDIT to your edit:

The next day you seem to have changed your mind and call it a tier 5 class, but I don't see any debate or explanation for why the shift happened?

The short answer is I thought about it some more and have stuck with T5 since.