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    Default Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Alter Self seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too powerful when compared to the higher level spell of FLY. Alter Self even lasts longer. Is there some limitation I am missing. Here is Alter Self from d20's website:

    Alter Self

    Transmutation

    Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
    You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
    You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
    If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
    You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
    You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
    You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
    You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
    When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.









    BlueWizard, again:
    The one limit I do, is allowing players only to change into what their PC knows in the fantasy-magic world, but that can be incredible. A human could become a Sylph or Raptoran... or am I just confused on this one. Please help, my player in the post-it game: High Seas and I would love responses on this. Is there erratta I missed?
    Last edited by BlueWizard; 2007-02-21 at 04:22 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    You're right, Alter Self is more powerful than Fly . . . for its level. It's level 2 instead of 3, lasts ten times as long, and lets you do other things apart from fly.

    However, if all you want to do is get airborne, Fly is better. Alter Self wings don't give you particularly good manoverability, so they're not much use indoors.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    All the high seas players need is to get out of the swamp water so my massive school of 4 foot-long electric eels don't eat them all.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    In that case, remember that Alter Self only works on yourself. So if the party needs to fly but not everyone is a wizard/sorcerer and no-one has the fly spell - they've got problems.

    - Saph

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    BlueWizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    I know, but still I think its a powerful spell.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    More or less yes, but I still like fly for its simplicity and the fact it doesn't have a 5 hd cap (but soon you can get polymorph and do so much more than fly)
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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    It seems to me Alter Self should be 4th level.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    It seems to me that you havnt seen the spell http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Is alter self better than fly?

    It is like asking if a hammer is better then a screwdriver. The right tool for the right situation.

    That being said, if you hit a screw with a hammer hard enough it will work. Yeah, alter self is better then fly most of the time.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Alterself is by far better than fly...
    there's no comparison with elf +otherworldy feat turned into dwarven ancestral.
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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    It is campaign dependent.

    Assumption: Players are humanoid.

    If flying humanoid races are common Alter Self can be quite useful as a spell for flying.

    If flying humanoid races are rare and/or the players have no knowledge of such races they cannot use Alter Self for flying.

    Allowing players to become anything they only have metagame knowledge about is not helping balancing spell such as Alter Self or Polymorph.
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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Alter Self is of the polymorph line of spells. That whole line is made of brokenness. Alter Self is very powerful.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Silvanos View Post
    It is campaign dependent.

    Assumption: Players are humanoid.

    If flying humanoid races are common Alter Self can be quite useful as a spell for flying.

    If flying humanoid races are rare and/or the players have no knowledge of such races they cannot use Alter Self for flying.

    Allowing players to become anything they only have metagame knowledge about is not helping balancing spell such as Alter Self or Polymorph.
    This is the most important thing to keep in mind about the polymorph spells in general. A wizard who has been adventuring for years and encountered winged elves should be able to change into one. A wizard who has only read vague references to a creature called a Xorn in their early studies with their mentor, but never seen or scryed one, has no justification for turning into one even if they have Shapechange memorized.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

    As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?
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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf53226 View Post
    So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

    As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?
    This is, of course, open to interpretation.

    For my money? Having fought one is certainly enough to get a feel for it. Extensive research might probably also be sufficient; certainly research that included travel to its home territory for observation or scrying would be. You don't need to know what it was called, or even what it is, if you've seen Creature X with Features Y and Z in action.

    It's a metagaming issue, and one of the most valid times for roleplaying to override non-specific mechanics; there just isn't any reason that a wizard who's never heard of, researched, or encountered a githyanki to turn into one. Heck, there's no reason for him to turn into a Dwarf if he's never heard of or encountered one of those. Knowing Alter Self or any polymorph spell doesn't imbue the caster with a magical knowledge of all existing creatures.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf53226 View Post
    So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

    As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?
    Obviously, since it's not RAW, it depends. Personally I think Alter Self/Polymorph are ridicu-freakingly-ously broken, and so I'd put a heavy, heavy burden on it. Like you must research the creature for a minimum of 1 month per HD (dedicated research, no other tasks), divided by caster level, minimum 1 month, in order for it to be an acceptable Alter Self/Polymorph target, maybe giving transmuters a bonus as well, and maybe even capping the number of known targets for the spell.

    Ticks me off that's not a RAW restriction on the Polymorph tree, though.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf53226 View Post
    So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

    As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?
    Knowledge checks are enough for me. Remember you only get 1 piece pof info per amoint exceed the check (according to PHB) So to know Avariel (winged elf for example) can fly would be two over the check (1 for elf, 2 for fly). DC is pretty easy eventually though. Plus it makes knowledge checks used for their function, checking for knowledge. Obviously you should have heard/seen/read about one before a check.

    Remenber: If human you lose the human racial feat (people deny this but come on; logically if your race gives you a feat than it is a racial bonus feat) while Alter Selfed so that is a con Fly does not have.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    I'm all for reducing the advantage spellcasters get from such powerful spells. A possibility would be to request a Knowledge (Nature or whatever: Arcarna??) check to see if the Wizard knows enough about the creature to get the alteration right. Then you could assign DC depending on circumstances, whether he has done reaserch, knows the creature, is trying to cast while sinking in a swamp etc etc.

    Doh - too slow posting
    Last edited by Subotei; 2007-02-21 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Familiarity is not a balancing factor for polymorph type effects and never will be, since familiarity can, get this ... BE GAINED.

    Either the spell is balanced for a given creature, or it isn't ... making people jump through hoops won't change anything about that simple fact. I can't quite fathom why people keep bringing up familiarity like it matters.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    While I agree with your point, PinkysBrain, I will say that the familiarity rule can be used to...err, dampen the damage from polymorph-like spells. Somewhat. Yes, familiarity can be gained, but only at the DMs discretion. If there are no Sarrukhs in the DMs world, you can't learn about them. If your DM says there's no way your character could know about Xorns, you can't polymorph into one.

    Does this FIX those broken spells? No, you're quite right, it doesn't. But it does let you do some damage control, which is better than nothing.
    "'To know, to do, and to keep silent.' Crowley had the first two down pat."

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkysBrain View Post
    Either the spell is balanced for a given creature, or it isn't ... making people jump through hoops won't change anything about that simple fact.
    Yes it will.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkysBrain View Post
    I can't quite fathom why people keep bringing up familiarity like it matters.
    Because the more in-game work you have to do to make a spell function, the less powerful it is.

    If familiarity requires a journey, skill checks, and days, months, or even years of work to acquire, then Alter Self is less useful. If familiarity is nigh-impossible to gain in-game (you have to have grown up around the species) then Alter Self is pretty close to worthless.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Saph: it just means that the spell will be powerful *less often*. It's easy to write "grew up around X" into a backstory. "My daddy was a monster tamer," say.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Saph: it just means that the spell will be powerful *less often*. It's easy to write "grew up around X" into a backstory. "My daddy was a monster tamer," say.
    Agreed - but the GM is also free to say that winged elves, say, are not native to any of the neighbourhoods of the party and thus there's no plausible way you could have gotten familiar with one. This is actually pretty close to the truth in FR, if I'm remembering right - avariels are very rare, only existing in 3 or 4 colonies across the entire planet. The vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    You can make the hoops to jump so annoying noone wants to jump them at all, but if they are at all jumpeable they can be jumped for those creatures which work especially well with the spell ... and when they are jumped the spell is just as powerful as if they weren't jumped at all.

    It's not even just about flying ... getting +5 to your armor, bite and claw attacks and the multiattack feat is even more overpowered really for a spell of that level.
    Last edited by PinkysBrain; 2007-02-21 at 04:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Agreed - but the GM is also free to say that winged elves, say, are not native to any of the neighbourhoods of the party and thus there's no plausible way you could have gotten familiar with one. This is actually pretty close to the truth in FR, if I'm remembering right - avariels are very rare, only existing in 3 or 4 colonies across the entire planet. The vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

    - Saph
    There are other flying creatures, like raptorans.

    I also don't see why the GM would do that rather than just, y'know, nerfing the spell?

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkysBrain View Post
    Growing up around the species is but a note in your character background.
    Which the DM is completely free to veto, especially if it's something that's obviously done for no reason other than to increase your character's power.

    All the DM has to say is: "There are no avariels where you grew up. The species is incredibly rare and no-one even knows they exist." A player doesn't have the right to knowledge of an obscure race any more than they have the right to be best buddies with Elminster.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    There are other flying creatures, like raptorans.

    I also don't see why the GM would do that rather than just, y'know, nerfing the spell?
    He doesn't want to use houserules? Same effect, anyway.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    He doesn't want to use houserules? Same effect, anyway.

    - Saph
    "No, you can't have known a raptoran" is functionally just as much a houserule as "Alter Self is nerfed". It's also easier to dance around. "Okay, then, I observed some troglodytes. +6 natural armor!" You'll wind up going "No! You can't have known anyone except dwarves, elves, and stuff!" in which case, well, why aren't you just banning the damn spell?

    And let me assure you that plenty of powergamers could write a quality backstory that uses the Avariel or Raptorans as symbols as well as actual races, flight as a metaphor for ambition, et cetera, that a DM wouldn't want to turn down.
    Last edited by Bears With Lasers; 2007-02-21 at 04:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    "There are no monster X in this setting" is not a hoop that can be jumped.

    Again, I'm not saying that this somehow "fixes" polymorph or makes it a non-broken spell. For one thing, theres waaaay too many monsters that are broken this way. But you can trim off some of the really sickening ones. Zodars or whatever those wish-using things are called, or the aformentioned Sarrukh.

    Edit: it's also much more reasonable to do this for the obscure game-breaking high-level monsters than it is for things like winged elves, that make Alter Self a bit more powerful. So yeah, if it bugs you so much...change the spell.
    Last edited by SpiderBrigade; 2007-02-21 at 04:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?

    Disagree. "You can't have known X" is a background/RP ruling. "You may not use spell X" is a crunch/game mechanics ruling. The first allows you to get access to race X in-game if your character works at it, the second doesn't.

    - Saph

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