Is there anything in the game level-for-level stronger than an optimized Archivist?

[AnonymousPepper]

In a purely TO sense, an Archivist with all the stops pulled out theoretically has every divine spell in the game and every Sorc/Wiz spell up to 6 known, can cast spontaneously, has Circle Magic, and can take advantage of DMMPersist shenanigans to grant herself all manner of buffs for the entire day (perhaps the finest example being double-rolls-take-the-better on literally everything - Choose Destiny, Destiny 9).

Is anything stronger?

[AMFV]

In a purely TO sense, an Archivist with all the stops pulled out theoretically has every divine spell in the game and every Sorc/Wiz spell up to 6 known, can cast spontaneously, has Circle Magic, and can take advantage of DMMPersist shenanigans to grant herself all manner of buffs for the entire day (perhaps the finest example being double-rolls-take-the-better on literally everything - Choose Destiny, Destiny 9).

Is anything stronger?

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know. A Factotum->Chameleon can easily get all divine and arcane spells using sanctum spell abuses, and drop quite a few extra actions. They also get access to every crafting feat ever due to the Chameleon's floating feat, so every obscure item in the game is open.

The weak points is levels 1-2, but after that it really picks up.

[OldTrees1]

Perhaps a Psion that
paid a Spell to Power Erudite to teach him every spell/power
and is using a power point recharge trick


Unlimited casting per day, all spells and powers known, most(all?) levels are persisted.

[Vaz]

Ardent. Metamind doesn't more than 1 CL with Practised Manifester. Ability to pick up the Save Game trick natively in class. Can pick up Material Component-less Teleport Through Time. Garryl's Disconcern. PP Recharge Mechanism. Can pick up Dark Chaos Shuffle natively in class, potentially XP-free.

Edit; AMFV, the Bone Talisman spell allows DMM Persist for an Archivist.

[AMFV]

Ardent. Metamind doesn't more than 1 CL with Practised Manifester. Ability to pick up the Save Game trick natively in class. Can pick up Material Component-less Teleport Through Time. Garryl's Disconcern. PP Recharge Mechanism. Can pick up Dark Chaos Shuffle natively in class, potentially XP-free.

Edit; AMFV, the Bone Talisman spell allows DMM Persist for an Archivist.

Nope, you still need to have turning to qualify for the feat. Or at least that would be my reading. Although I think that initial condition to qualify is a very hotly debated topic.

Edit: And Circle magic is still not part of the chassis in any case. Although since we're in TO again strength is always going to be absurd, I think that we're still loosing out to Pun Pun.

[Shinken]

Artificer is definitely stronger than Archivist.

[TypoNinja]

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

Turning can be picked up for a feat if you don't want to dip, at that point piles of nightsticks feed your dmm, furthermore since were going builds that would usually get books thrown at you, persisted spells last 48 hours if we apply extend after persist, so we can Chaos Shuffle in the feat just long enough to get 48 hours of buffs and then shuffle back in whatever feat you actually want on hand is if you feel that feat starved.

[eternal]

my vote goes to druid going into planar shepherd with Dal Quor.

[Silva Stormrage]

Turning can be picked up for a feat if you don't want to dip, at that point piles of nightsticks feed your dmm, furthermore since were going builds that would usually get books thrown at you, persisted spells last 48 hours if we apply extend after persist, so we can Chaos Shuffle in the feat just long enough to get 48 hours of buffs and then shuffle back in whatever feat you actually want on hand is if you feel that feat starved.

What feat grants turn undead? DMM only works with turn undead not other types of turning and I didn't think you could get turn undead with a feat.

[AMFV]

Turning can be picked up for a feat if you don't want to dip, at that point piles of nightsticks feed your dmm, furthermore since were going builds that would usually get books thrown at you, persisted spells last 48 hours if we apply extend after persist, so we can Chaos Shuffle in the feat just long enough to get 48 hours of buffs and then shuffle back in whatever feat you actually want on hand is if you feel that feat starved.

I guess Planar Touchstone counts. But Circle Magic is still not in a standard Archivist build. In any case any archivist build that is not Pun Pun is suboptimal. That's how this works, if you aren't Pun Pun you are suboptimal since you could be more optimal.

[eggynack]

my vote goes to druid going into planar shepherd with Dal Quor.

I'd actually probably side with the straight druid at some level ranges. I don't think the archivist list is all that much better than the wizard list from around 1-11, and the druid can reasonably claim superiority in that range on the back of class features. It seems disingenuous, incidentally, to claim victory for archivists on the back of prestige class stuff. At that point, planar shepherd actually does enter the picture, and it isn't likely to end particularly in the archivists favor until you hit serious cheese range.

[TypoNinja]

What feat grants turn undead? DMM only works with turn undead not other types of turning and I didn't think you could get turn undead with a feat.

You can either go Planar touchstone catalogs of enlightenment for any chosen domain power. You then go Sun domain from DragonLance Campaign setting (Grants turning) or if you don't like cherry picking setting specific material that way God Touched followed by Divine Channeler will grant you turn undead.

[eternal]

I'd actually probably side with the straight druid at some level ranges. I don't think the archivist list is all that much better than the wizard list from around 1-11, and the druid can reasonably claim superiority in that range on the back of class features. It seems disingenuous, incidentally, to claim victory for archivists on the back of prestige class stuff. At that point, planar shepherd actually does enter the picture, and it isn't likely to end particularly in the archivists favor until you hit serious cheese range.

so wait.. your agreeing with me right? or disagreeing with me... I'm confused.


I'd also say strait cleric as well would keep up or be stronger. Their domains( here's looking at you spell domain) and initiate of mystra give them access to a good range of arcane and then there is the dmm cheese on top of that.

But alas I'm bias to clerics and druids.

[eggynack]

so wait.. your agreeing with me right? or disagreeing with me... I'm confused.

I'm saying that planar shepherd would likely be stronger, but that druid on its own likely has an edge across a good level range as well.

[eternal]

I'm saying that planar shepherd would likely be stronger, but that druid on its own likely has an edge across a good level range as well.

I thought you were saying as much. It's late and my brain isn't all here. I figured strait druid would be enough, however; if we're talking TO I couldn't resist bringing in planar shepherd.

edit:
I guess the same could be said for aberration wild shape and assume supernatural ability. Put the two together and I'm not sure if there is much that could win against that.

[Silva Stormrage]

You can either go Planar touchstone catalogs of enlightenment for any chosen domain power. You then go Sun domain from DragonLance Campaign setting (Grants turning) or if you don't like cherry picking setting specific material that way God Touched followed by Divine Channeler will grant you turn undead.

Ah didn't know of Sun Domain's change in Dragonlance. Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[jiriku]

I guess Planar Touchstone counts. But Circle Magic is still not in a standard Archivist build. In any case any archivist build that is not Pun Pun is suboptimal. That's how this works, if you aren't Pun Pun you are suboptimal since you could be more optimal.

(A weaker version of) Circle magic is available as a feat for divine spellcasters in Ghostwalk.

[adriana]

Artificer is definitely stronger than Archivist.

This for sure. An Artificer who knows his/her stuff is a beast.

That being said I'm voting for my favorite class: The Necro Cleric.

[Ingus]

Maybe the only think better than an Artificer is a Psionic Artificer - mostly because of Erudite spell to power.

Then you have a normal Artificer plus psionic.
And you can craft items that grant maneuvers as per ToB rules (which normal artificer can do too), so you can have a Arcane/Divine/Psionic caster and initiator.

I once created a psionic artificer 16 that could mimic Sor/Wiz 20 + Cleric 20 + Psion 20 + Psi Warrior 20 + Monk 30 or so (Monks are sadly weak) + Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage (each) 20, Fighter 20 with a contingent (craft contingency, no less) Suppressing Field preventing AMF "fun".
And Vestiges as "animal companions".
And golems.
And zombies.
And insta-charming monsters along the way.
Never had the courage to present it to a real DM though

[Feint's End]

Perhaps a Psion that
paid a Spell to Power Erudite to teach him every spell/power
and is using a power point recharge trick


Unlimited casting per day, all spells and powers known, most(all?) levels are persisted.

Probably this. All powers known and all wizard spells known up to 8th grade. It's even possible to get most of the cleric list on there if you really try.

Be a telepath and go into thrallherd to get the stp erudite fair and square. If you have to stay single class then just dominate one (unlikely in a game that high op but hey).

In another case? Psionic artificer maybe. If we are talking TO

[kellbyb]

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

Seriously, this is it. Whatever you can do, Pun Pun can do better while at level 1.

[AMFV]

Again if we're talking TO any class that isn't going into Pun Pun is weaker, we're in some kind of half-TO/PO place, which is fine, but we should classify under what restrictions we're operating.

[Segev]

You can only benefit from as many nightsticks as you can wield simultaneously. With Giralon's Blessing or other magics to obtain more limbs, you might be able to get a fair number, though. Grell can wield things with each tentacle, so that'd be a good form.

[Bloodgruve]

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

Can't use Spell Storing Item (Infusion) + Metamagic Item (Infusion) to apply your Persist? Create a single charge Spell Storing Item with Divine Power, hit it with Metamagic Item (Persist) and trigger it for a 24hr buff for a small xp cost? Concurrent Infusions infusion to bypass the xp cost too.

[AMFV]

Can't use Spell Storing Item (Infusion) + Metamagic Item (Infusion) to apply your Persist? Create a single charge Spell Storing Item with Divine Power, hit it with Metamagic Item (Persist) and trigger it for a 24hr buff for a small xp cost? Concurrent Infusions infusion to bypass the xp cost too.

We're discussing archivists, not Artificers. Also there are several bypasses that have been brought up although at least one of them is setting dependent (Sun Domain)

[Bloodgruve]

We're discussing archivists, not Artificers. Also there are several bypasses that have been brought up although at least one of them is setting dependent (Sun Domain)

lol, I just noticed that what I was thinking and reading were not the same. Head's not on right today..

Blood~

[ArqArturo]

Archivist with Leadership, accompanied by a Warlock/Chamaleon gets access to everything.

[Elderand]

Archivist with Leadership, accompanied by a Warlock/Chamaleon gets access to everything.

Thrallherd does it better

[ArqArturo]

Thrallherd does it better

My idea was based on my first job, really. Where the Chamaleon is just a poor intern, just churning out scrolls and the Archivist comes over the table in the inn and asks the Chamaleon to dig up the most obscure shugenja spells, for reasons.