OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread

[CarpeGuitarrem]

AhahahahahBAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That punchline was the best. And I love how it showcases Haley's growing-up and sense of perspective. In fact, this whole comic was that, for Haley. Even the "action figures" panel? Pure GENIUS way to remind us that Haley's been through a lot. It's not just a one-off gag: we got to see three places Haley's been in the comics with those three action figures.

Nice, nuanced, strong page, with a cheeky punchline at the end. One of the best pages of OOTS thus far.

I'm reminded of a quote I read somewhere, where a writer was asked, "Why do you keep writing strong female characters?" To which the answer was, "Because you keeping asking that question." It shouldn't be controversial that female characters are portrayed as complex people, or that someone just happens to have had a same-sex relationship, yet here we are.

Side note: if you want to cite it, that was Joss Whedon. It's a fairly well-known speech he gave.

[Socksy]

I'm saying that the fantasy-world mechanic (scanty armor is protection for female) and the character's personality (and, therefore, choices) are entirely the author's decision.



Google results are personalized; your Google results and mine will be different based on whatever information Google has on our history and demographics.

I thought Google just found the most-viewed images/links, did not know that.

Andthe way you phrased it before made it sound a bit like "Scantily-clad woman means author is a perv", so thanks for clarifying.

[Keltest]

What about Shojo?

That didn't exactly work out well for him did it. Its quite possible that had he been more up front with his paladins, then Miko would have been on the side of the defenders, and Azure City would not have fallen.

[Morty]

I see a couple of gladiator-type pieces which, while cool looking, weren't actually designed to be armor. Leather jackets are more armor than gladiator wear. Everything else is either full (or parts of) armor, or clothes.

'Leather armour' as fantasy gaming uses the term is fiction, anyway. Nobody ever wore what's essentially a leather jacket or coat for protection. Leather bikini 'armour' just drops a healthy dose of sexism and objectification on top of it all.

[Shining Wrath]

I believe this makes Bandanna the OotS's first openly gay major character. As opposed to Vaarsuuvius who is quite clearly the OotS's first openly closed unknown sexuality main character of deep confusion on the part of readers.

It will be interesting to see what sub-plot ensues to obtain the necessary coin.

[Keltest]

My original point was that women in the OOTS series do not and have never worn ridiculously impractical armour. As someone else mentioned, obviously Sabine is an exception. I showed that there were male armours with a LOT less fabric to them than Haley's old outfit.

Like I said, that wasn't "armor" so much as "decorative leather."

It was deliberately designed not to be protective. You can tell on account of how they don't cover much of anything, especially the parts important to keeping you alive.

Even Haley's desert armor is rather impractical for defense without magic, although the degree of protection just plain leather armor gives you is already pretty small.

[Shining Wrath]

So apparently all clothing choices of female characters depict the author's views on women? Are you telling me if women are scantily-clad, it's not because it's in-character?



Well, I don't know what you googled.

Out of the first dozen pictures:
Total number of men in armour (or male mannequins, there are a lot of mannequins) that bares the midriff or more: 4
Total number of pieces of armour that look like "sexy" wear rather than actually looking like armour: 2
Total number of very-close-to-naked-women who came up in that search for some reason: 0

Have a screenshot to prove it.

My results:
First 9 look functional.
Next 3 after that look like fetish wear.

[Shining Wrath]

Somehow, knowing Bandana's mother is a blonde, make me think if Julio giving her the captain position is not simply heritage.

And yes, I want to buy action figures of OotS as well. Will we have a kickstarter for it?

Spoiler: Bechdel Test stuff, to avoid derailing

Show

The Bechdel Test is not a test to see if the artwork is favorable to gender equality. Neither a test to check its quality. Or even its association on gender issues.

Just that it has women represented. The women in question can be as bad or as good as a character than any other in the work. Or the work itself.

If the test sounds to you like a pretty easy standard to meet, it is. That's the whole point: To shock you that too many loved movies and series fail on this simple test.

I took the dark-skinned male at the wheel who is receiving orders from Julio to be her father.

[Socksy]

Yes. Because the author created those characters out of thin air, and could have chosen to create them differently if he had wanted to. The choice to create only women for whom it is "in-character" to be scantily clad is, itself, depicting the author's views on women.

or

Yes. Because when something occurs over and over across a swath of characters that have nothing in common with each other except for being female, then it becomes untenable to claim that it is, in fact, a result of the character's innate personality traits and not a reflection of the author's views on the one unifying trait: their gender.

Pick one.

If it was all the women in a series (and none of the men), then yeah, that would be true. But I didn't say ALL women were scantily clad. I meant SOME women in a series. I can't remember if the person I was arguing against said 'some' or 'all'. I can't really check, because my laptop hates posting on the forums for some reason.

[137beth]

I believe this makes Bandanna the OotS's first openly gay major character. As opposed to Vaarsuuvius who is quite clearly the OotS's first openly closed unknown sexuality main character of deep confusion on the part of readers.

It will be interesting to see what sub-plot ensues to obtain the necessary coin.

It is quite possible V is also gay.

[Zea mays]

In the flashback panel of Bandana's childhood, should Julio look younger? Maybe not quite so grizzled?

(Eta, apart from that inconsequential detail, loved the comic)

[Keltest]

It is quite possible V is also gay.

but not confirmed, and V certainly isn't very open about it if that's the case.

[SlyJohnny]

Oh, new strip. Hey guys, what'd I miss? Sexual representation, female characters indicative of author's views on women, blah blah blah...

Urgh. The two chicks are alone in the same room together for like a single strip and they start having an extended discussion about clothes. This is why a mostly male party is important, people.

*flees*

[Peelee]

That didn't exactly work out well for him did it. Its quite possible that had he been more up front with his paladins, then Miko would have been on the side of the defenders, and Azure City would not have fallen.

How long did he rule before it fell apart? I mean, the Galactic Republic fell, but it spanned 25 millennia, so I'd say that system worked out pretty darn well. I think Shojo's tenure went quite well.

[Keltest]

How long did he rule before it fell apart? I mean, the Galactic Republic fell, but it spanned 25 millennia, so I'd say that system worked out pretty darn well. I think Shojo's tenure went quite well.

Do you perhaps not recall Meatloaf Day? The only reason he wasn't killed was because he basically spent the rest of his life letting the nobles think he wasn't doing anything.

[Socksy]

How long did he rule before it fell apart? I mean, the Galactic Republic fell, but it spanned 25 millennia, so I'd say that system worked out pretty darn well. I think Shojo's tenure went quite well.

So... Shojo is Palpatine? Well, I don't think that's the right era for Palpatine, but still.

[Shining Wrath]

It is quite possible V is also gay.

And also quite possible that V is not. And quite possible that V is male. And quite possible that V is female. And quite possible that V's divorced spouse is male. And quite possible that V's divorced spouse is female. The Giant has been quite clear that he has been deliberately ambiguous about this.

So with equal probability:

1. V is male formerly married to female
2. V is female formerly married to female
3. V is male formerly married to male
4. V is male formerly married to female

In choices (2) and (3) the children are either adopted or the result of sex-changing magic used by the couple in order to conceive.

[Kaytara]

Oh my god. So many things this comic does right:
1) lampshading the outfit thing
2) lampshading past issues with the depiction of women in the comic in a funny, self-aware way that fits the medium because the characters ALWAYS lampshade earlier comic bits at any rate
3) giving a female character visibility as a lesbian without fetishising her or making her story ENTIRELY about her queerness and nothing else

Thank you, Rich, I am genuinely impressed and touched in addition to the usual state of being entertained by your comic. Please keep this up, you quality human being, you.

[BenjCano]

No. Stories exist primarily for the purpose of delivering messages to one another, whether about human nature, or the world around us, or what have you.

Gotta disagree with you there. Stories primarily exist for entertainment The purpose of delivering messages or morals or information is always secondary. A story that delivers a solid message but in a boring fashion fails as a story and is usually forgotten very quickly.

But an entertaining story with a horrible message can still be enjoyed for itself. Hell, the moral of the movie version of The Little Mermaid seems to be "it’s okay to change who you are and give up your identity for love." The Iliad boils down to: "It's worthwhile to start a war to kidnap an adulterous woman, but afterwards, you should kill her for letting you fight a war over her." Fight Club: "Reactionary masculinity is the only cure for the consumerist malaise. No girls allowed." The Lord of the Rings even contains this gem: "Progress is bad."

[Socksy]

And also quite possible that V is not. And quite possible that V is male. And quite possible that V is female. And quite possible that V's divorced spouse is male. And quite possible that V's divorced spouse is female. The Giant has been quite clear that he has been deliberately ambiguous about this.

So with equal probability:

1. V is male formerly married to female
2. V is female formerly married to female
3. V is male formerly married to male
4. V is male formerly married to female

In choices (2) and (3) the children are either adopted or the result of sex-changing magic used by the couple in order to conceive.

Isn't it stated the kids are adopted?
And their skin tone is very different to that of their parents, too, making it more obvious. I thought it was done like that to make it so that they could be any gender combination.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The only part I dislike is that the "desert armor" action figure doesn't bare her midriff. Changing her armor now so it doesn't show is fine, but the retcon is weird.

[BenjCano]

And also quite possible that V is not. And quite possible that V is male. And quite possible that V is female. And quite possible that V's divorced spouse is male. And quite possible that V's divorced spouse is female. The Giant has been quite clear that he has been deliberately ambiguous about this.

So with equal probability:

1. V is male formerly married to female
2. V is female formerly married to female
3. V is male formerly married to male
4. V is male formerly married to female

In choices (2) and (3) the children are either adopted or the result of sex-changing magic used by the couple in order to conceive.

Heterosexual couples can adopt too, you know.

[Peelee]

Do you perhaps not recall Meatloaf Day? The only reason he wasn't killed was because he basically spent the rest of his life letting the nobles think he wasn't doing anything.

Hiccups in the system, man. It's not smooth sailing 100% of the time.

[Cactuar_Tamer]

Between this and some of your previous statements, I have to ask: is there something inherently wrong with escapism? By being entertained by a story that might give you something emotionally while not being directly tied to real life issues?

Could I ask you, by the same token: is there something inherently wrong with escapism for people who aren't you? Personally, I'm pretty damn pleased by this strip. Having people who reflect me and identities I have makes it easier, not harder to enjoy escapism. I wish people could enjoy the abundant representation they already have instead of complaining whenever other people aren't actively excluded from seeing themselves in media. People like Bandana exist, and a casual mention of a girlfriend isn't anymore "forced" than a casual mention of a boyfriend, which, I suspect, you wouldn't even have noticed.

[The Troubadour]

Haley and Sabine; Haley and Tsukiko.

Thanks!

You mean like a guy telling a girl how sexism works?

Do you think our genders automatically determine what we can or can't know about sexism? ;-)

[Gift Jeraff]

The only part I dislike is that the "desert armor" action figure doesn't bare her midriff. Changing her armor now so it doesn't show is fine, but the retcon is weird.

Her desert outfit never bore her midriff. That was her original one.

There's a quote from Rich about how comics should be relevant in the real world; "otherwise, it's just pure escapism." In other words, every strip has a job to do.

That doesn't invalidate their criticism if they feel the execution--not the message itself--was inorganic.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The only part I dislike is that the "desert armor" action figure doesn't bare her midriff. Changing her armor now so it doesn't show is fine, but the retcon is weird.

I didn't think it did. The sleeves are a bit wider than I expected, but I was pretty sure it went straight down to her pants. Sample reference comic. I don't see a midriff there. (I mean, there is one, but it's very clothed.)

[Socksy]

Do you think our genders automatically determine what we can or can't know about sexism? ;-)

Well, obviously. That's how it works!

[Ajadea]

I didn't notice anything forced about the comic until I came here, actually. It tells us that they've got enough loot (barely) to fix the Mechane, Haley is wearing new armor, not the old stuff with a shirt under it, Bandana likes being in charge but is fully expecting Julio to show up and take his ship back at some point, and Haley's picked up some tendencies from Roy during her stint as leader in DStP. And a self-aware reference to previous comics that made me grin.

I just glazed over Bandana's girlfriend completely. Bandana's been given a thin body type, Haley has a busty/curvy one, so Bandana's armor doesn't fit Haley. Solution: insert female character connected to Bandana so Bandana has spare armor set to give Haley. An ex-girlfriend is a completely viable option. Visibility without making the character revolve around her sexuality. I liked it, anyways.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Or, of course, you can do what Carl Critchlow did with Lymara in Thrud, and have the "leather bikini" played fully for distraction purposes - it's protective capabilities are near enough 100% if the wearer is never attacked because their opponents are too busy gawping at the amount of exposed flesh.

Another possible real world example are Gladiatrix's - I know Gladiators had the various forms of arms and armour, but did their female counterparts do so as well? Or did they just fight in less ritualised attitre? Did they even have their own forms? (Seriously, does anyone know of a good book on the subject?)

And given that different cultures have different views on what's acceptable or not, did Gladiatrix's wear the same amount as the men, did they cover up more, or even have more on show to play to the crowd?