Why all the hate for Man of Steel?

[Scowling Dragon]

We concluded that what the inevitable next reboot needs to do to make the character relatable and interesting is to not tell him that he is from Krypton. Superman needs to stop feeling like he's doing us all a favor.

Or just phase it out much more. Have him know he's from Krypton but have him find out POST superman, and have it be more of a mystery then a message from pop.

[SiuiS]

Regardless of whether "or" is inclusive or exclusive, it presents an alternative item or idea.

Oh, thank you! That's very good. I had never put it together so well.

[Fan]

Or just phase it out much more. Have him know he's from Krypton but have him find out POST superman, and have it be more of a mystery then a message from pop.

Well Superman the Animated series had it handled pretty well, but it also had a lot more time to handle it. Having him find out he's super as he grows up isn't a bad idea, and it's been executed very well so long as it continues to be him attempting to be human more than it is him trying to be a Kryptonian on Earth.

[Shinken]

He's at the very least continent tier based on his effort involved feat of pushing back the beam that was intended to bore through the planet.

Stop. Just stop. This is not even a Vs thread.

[Scowling Dragon]

Having him find out he's super as he grows up isn't a bad idea, and it's been executed very well so long as it continues to be him attempting to be human more than it is him trying to be a Kryptonian on Earth.

Which is why I find the "What do you get for the man who has everything?" episode out of place. His ultimate dream is Lois lane on Krypton?

I guess earth sucks so much that he secretly was wishing to be somewhere else all along. With different parents.

[Hopeless]

Makes me wonder why they didn't leave the Krypton stuff for the sequel and have him turn up on Earth as per the usual origin.

He's found and brought up but due to the presence of Kryptonite fragments his abilities only start to emerge after puberty so his adopted parents are able to help him overcome the problems he faces as well as ego problems something I thought Smallville at least tried to do well (And not the other stuff they didn't).

Have him meet Lex and he's the first foe maybe the scout ship was found and he's making use of the technology he found keeping the best parts for himself but hyping the anti-alien bit to keep them interested in funding his research.

Reveal Lex activated the beacon making the military think its something off world doing that instead of him trying to draw them out.

Clark investigates and realises whats Lex is doing so has to take the scoutship out of Lex's possession and manages to do so but its too damaged to fly offworld so he hides it somewhere where he can find it and eventually fix once he figures out how to thanks to the information from his own ship that brought him to Earth.

Its only near the end of that movie we have a Kryptonian craft turn up and we're introduced to Zod leading to the sequel where the info from the MoS movie will elaborate on what actually happened and reveal they're fleeing the long dead colonies because a creature was set upon them for the purpose of wiping Kryptonians out and Zod and co have led it to Earth... cue the third movie...

It does now feel like someone wanted an alternate world Superman the one where he was raised by the Waynes except whoever was in charge of this really needed to binge on Superman origin stories instead of just numbers...

Sorry guess I needed to unwind!

[Avilan the Grey]

We concluded that what the inevitable next reboot needs to do to make the character relatable and interesting is to not tell him that he is from Krypton. Superman needs to stop feeling like he's doing us all a favor.

Not like he ever does. Except when some hack writer try to make him a bastard.

[Zrak]

No matter how sad your story is (and it is really sad - I'm deeply sorry for your loss), that sentence is false.

Thanks. I'm kind of embarrassed about bringing it up. I didn't really intend to, but sometimes things go a way you didn't plan when you're on a road trip and stop for the night in a town with nothing open but wi-fi and a liquor store. My apologies for what was supposed to have been a simple point turning into a whirlpool of Unhappy Memories from Zrak's Adolescence.

Superman does have pretty clear agency, though, not only in the instances where he saves people throughout the film, but also and most importantly in in his decision to turn himself over to Zod and his decision to save humanity, making the decision to trust in both humanity and Zod rather than attempt to fight. When it doesn't work, he punches some guys into big explosions because, I mean, it's still an action movie, which destroys some buildings but saves the world from certain destruction. It's pretty hard to say a movie doesn't give its hero the agency when the fate of the entire world hangs on his decisions and actions multiple times over the course of the movie. Considering that he decides to make the leap of faith and trust humanity, and that he saves the world, I'd have to say he asserts that agency successful and in a relatively idealistic fashion.

I think a more appropriate interpretation would be "Man of Steel tries really really hard to deny the agency of its hero to change the world, but in the end they can't get around the fact that he's Superman."

I'm sorry for your loss.

Thanks, and sorry again for bringing it up.

Of course it tries really, really hard to deny the agency of its hero, but he ends up overcoming all those obstacles. That's basically how Superhero movies work. If the script didn't try and get in the way of the hero saving the world, Superhero movies would be really short and pretty boring.

Not even that. 40s Superman was an anti-establishment hero of the people.

I think they were sort of trying for that, with Superman starting out in more "proletarian" occupations, the skepticism of the military, and Superman defending his right to privacy by beating up unmanned aircraft at the end. I don't think it was effectively presented, at all, but I think a fairly tangible attempt is there.

Makes me wonder why they didn't leave the Krypton stuff for the sequel and have him turn up on Earth as per the usual origin.

I think because this was more of a reboot of the original film series, in a lot of ways, than any other media. As such, they wanted to repeat the Clark/Jor-El dynamic from the original, but without Ghostly Brando there for basically no reasons. So instead we got hologram Crowe there for reasons that like forty-five minutes of exposition and a bad introductory plot didn't really justify.

[Eric Tolle]

I think if you go with the theory that DC is trying to play catch-up with Marvel by copying comics from 20 years ago, you get a pretty good explanation for Man of Steel. The minimal moral compass and the attempt to make Superman oh-so-serious reflects the "comics are for adults"element of 90s comics. I suppose it could have been worse though- they could have put a bunch of pockets on his outfit, and given him a big gun. And maybe crammed in a huge amount of tiny teeth into his mouth.

[TheThan]

Superman needs to stop feeling like he's doing us all a favor.

I never really got this.

Because of the way Clark Kent is raised, he would be a heroic type of character to begin with. He’d grow up to be a policeman, a fireman and EMT, a surgeon, you know the sort of person who would save lives regardless of super powers. The only real difference is that he’s able to save more lives with those powers, becoming a reporter simply allows him to keep up on what's going on in the world so he can keep a heads up on any given crisis that comes up.

[Zrak]

I think if you go with the theory that DC is trying to play catch-up with Marvel by copying comics from 20 years ago, you get a pretty good explanation for Man of Steel. The minimal moral compass and the attempt to make Superman oh-so-serious reflects the "comics are for adults"element of 90s comics. I suppose it could have been worse though- they could have put a bunch of pockets on his outfit, and given him a big gun. And maybe crammed in a huge amount of tiny teeth into his mouth.

I think it's less that than it is they're trying to play catch-up with Marvel by copying movies from about 10 years ago; the film feels to me more like a shoddy imitator of Raimi's Spiderman than of anything from the '90s. Jonathan Kent is reinvented as a more "stern" authority figure, but is still depicted as a loving father figure, much like Uncle Ben; the public is more distrustful of Superman, as they are of Spiderman; after having some fun/easily saving some people/getting petty revenge on bullies, Superman must learn to use his powers to be a true hero in the face of a much more dire threat, pretty much exactly like Raimi's Spiderman. I think the movie stumbles because that formula is not as natural for Superman as it is for Spiderman, and Snyder just doesn't execute it as well as Raimi; "sometimes there is more at stake than our lives and the lives of those around us" is neither as catchy nor as convincing as "with great power comes great responsibility," and Snyder just doesn't have the touch for the human element that made Raimi's Spiderman such a likable movie despite its faults.

[grolim]

I never really got this.

Because of the way Clark Kent is raised, he would be a heroic type of character to begin with. He’d grow up to be a policeman, a fireman and EMT, a surgeon, you know the sort of person who would save lives regardless of super powers. The only real difference is that he’s able to save more lives with those powers, becoming a reporter simply allows him to keep up on what's going on in the world so he can keep a heads up on any given crisis that comes up.

Right. He is a hero because of his humanity. He is super because of him being Kryptonian. His powers just change the scale on which he would already be a good guy.

[Kris Strife]

I never really got this.

Because of the way Clark Kent is raised, he would be a heroic type of character to begin with. He’d grow up to be a policeman, a fireman and EMT, a surgeon, you know the sort of person who would save lives regardless of super powers. The only real difference is that he’s able to save more lives with those powers, becoming a reporter simply allows him to keep up on what's going on in the world so he can keep a heads up on any given crisis that comes up.

He's also used his job as a reporter to do good on more than one instance, in ways Superman couldn't.

[theNater]

Insofar as I recall, some parents and some cop or whatever thank him, the other kids seem more freaked out than anything else, and Jonathan Kent is worried about what'll happen if people finds out his eight-year-old is also basically a weapon of mass destruction.

Okay, so that's a positive reaction from a handful of nameless characters, negative from a mass of nameless characters, and negative from a major character. That is more negative than positive, which is a little weird given that everything that actually happened is good. We can call it lukewarm, if you like.

Now, for sake of comparison, fill me in on the response to the final battle. Is there mass cheering? Do we see anyone grieving for the casualties? Does anyone accuse Clark of being the cause of all of it? I understand that Clark and Lois kiss at some point; is that before, after, or during?

[Anteros]

Okay, so that's a positive reaction from a handful of nameless characters, negative from a mass of nameless characters, and negative from a major character. That is more negative than positive, which is a little weird given that everything that actually happened is good. We can call it lukewarm, if you like.

Now, for sake of comparison, fill me in on the response to the final battle. Is there mass cheering? Do we see anyone grieving for the casualties? Does anyone accuse Clark of being the cause of all of it? I understand that Clark and Lois kiss at some point; is that before, after, or during?

If I remember right it's during. Clark thinks he's won, and it's before Zod comes back and attacks him. There's not really anyone around at the time to cheer or grieve except the newspaper staff and they all seem fairly appreciative towards the guy who just saved their lives.

I could be mis-remembering the time-line slightly. It's been a few years since I watched the movie.

[McStabbington]

I think it's less that than it is they're trying to play catch-up with Marvel by copying movies from about 10 years ago; the film feels to me more like a shoddy imitator of Raimi's Spiderman than of anything from the '90s. Jonathan Kent is reinvented as a more "stern" authority figure, but is still depicted as a loving father figure, much like Uncle Ben; the public is more distrustful of Superman, as they are of Spiderman; after having some fun/easily saving some people/getting petty revenge on bullies, Superman must learn to use his powers to be a true hero in the face of a much more dire threat, pretty much exactly like Raimi's Spiderman. I think the movie stumbles because that formula is not as natural for Superman as it is for Spiderman, and Snyder just doesn't execute it as well as Raimi; "sometimes there is more at stake than our lives and the lives of those around us" is neither as catchy nor as convincing as "with great power comes great responsibility," and Snyder just doesn't have the touch for the human element that made Raimi's Spiderman such a likable movie despite its faults.

I think that's an entirely fair read on both counts. As much as the script really, really hurt the film, the simple fact was that Zach Snyder is not the right man to helm a Superman film, because he doesn't really get empathy or connection with the characters, and Superman only works if you can empathize with or connect with the character's sincerity and do-gooder spirit. Asking Snyder to helm a Superman film is one step away from asking Stanley Kubrick to film a CareBears episode or for Spielberg to make a Saw film: it just. doesn't. fit.

[Coidzor]

I think that's an entirely fair read on both counts. As much as the script really, really hurt the film, the simple fact was that Zach Snyder is not the right man to helm a Superman film, because he doesn't really get empathy or connection with the characters, and Superman only works if you can empathize with or connect with the character's sincerity and do-gooder spirit. Asking Snyder to helm a Superman film is one step away from asking Stanley Kubrick to film a CareBears episode or for Spielberg to make a Saw film: it just. doesn't. fit.

On the other hand, Spielberg might actually manage to make torture porn interesting for the members of the audience without their hands down their trousers. XD

[Metahuman1]

It's during. While there surrounded by horrible 9/11 imagery, after he's pretty sure he's genocided the last of his race save himself, but before he's taken the time to make sure Zod's really dead. Ergo why it was a horrible time to put that scene there.

Seriously, if they have to kiss, rewrite the end to have an extra scene of them meeting on a roof and making out before he flys off to go take care of a problem, or if you need it before the ending just to be "different." due it before they leave on what are gonna be dangerous missions for there two pronged attack plan.

[afroakuma]

Zach Snyder is not the right man to helm a film

300 isn't really a counterargument.

[Zrak]

Zack Snyder did a perfectly fine job directing 300. 300 is a bad movie because 300, the comic, is garbage. The movie is a competent adaptation of its horrendous source material.

EDIT: Also, buildings getting blown up isn't "9/11 imagery." It wasn't before, it isn't after.

[Shinken]

Zack Snyder did a perfectly fine job directing 300. 300 is a bad movie because 300, the comic, is garbage. The movie is a competent adaptation of its horrendous source material.

Agreed. The most faithful comic book adaptation ever.

EDIT: Also, buildings getting blown up isn't "9/11 imagery." It wasn't before, it isn't after.

How could anything be 9/11 imagery before 9/11?

[Zrak]

If it was made in the future and sent back in time. I mean, if there's no reason to believe that they are, but there's pretty much no reason to call the destroyed buildings in Man of Steel "9/11 imagery," either.

[Jayngfet]

Or just phase it out much more. Have him know he's from Krypton but have him find out POST superman, and have it be more of a mystery then a message from pop.

Which, according to what I've seen, is how John Bryne handled superman.

Of course, Bryne's superman fought wizards and giant apes, so obviously that's way too much fun for a modern live action movie.

If it was made in the future and sent back in time. I mean, if there's no reason to believe that they are, but there's pretty much no reason to call the destroyed buildings in Man of Steel "9/11 imagery," either.

Some of the shots were blatant references to footage of the attacks though. Most of it was original but towards the end of the sequence Snyder obviously got kind of lazy with his imagery.

[Melquiades]

THIS:

The whole neck-snap comes off phony baloney when superman killed THOUSANDS of humans in his fight with Zod.

I didn't read the whole topic, and there are a lot more issues with this movie (not the ones you mention, though, like costume and people reaction, those are not issues), but this was one of the things that bugged me the most.

[Hopeless]

For me it was an okay movie, the HISHE video however made it blatantly clear it should have been so much more.

[Mystic Muse]

Really, I think the stupidest part in the movie, above all else is


"Krypton had its chance!"

So, because Krypton "had its chance" Superman kills off the rest of his race.

...Why are we supposed to believe a guy who killed off an entire race without any hint of remorse is going to become the Big Blue Boyscout again?

[Jayngfet]

Really, I think the stupidest part in the movie, above all else is


"Krypton had its chance!"

So, because Krypton "had its chance" Superman kills off the rest of his race.

...Why are we supposed to believe a guy who killed off an entire race without any hint of remorse is going to become the Big Blue Boyscout again?

The audience is supposed to think so. Because we're supposed to remember waaaaay at the beginning that the half dozen non-villain kryptonians we met were kind of jerks. Which we know exclusively because Jor-El said so.

Of course, Clark doesn't know any of that. He's never met anyone besides like three of Zod's crew and this makes him totally qualified to pre-emptivley kill off a bunch of babies.

[Shinken]

Which, according to what I've seen, is how John Bryne handled superman.

Byrne's Superman is so underrated, sadly.

Of course, Bryne's superman fought wizards and giant apes, so obviously that's way too much fun for a modern live action movie.

I have three words for you:

Spoiler

Show

I
AM
GROOT!

[Foeofthelance]

Byrne's Superman is so underrated, sadly.


I have three words for you:

Spoiler

Show

I
AM
GROOT!

Considering Guardians is one of the reasons I have lost almost all interest in seeing Batman v Superman...



You know what I want to see a Superman movie try to pull off? That scene in one of the comics where he stops a girl from committing suicide by just talking to her. Where he just sits down and proves how human he really is by saving a life without hitting something with super-strength or burno-vision, but just by conveying the strength of his convictions.

[Avilan the Grey]

Again, you can summarize DC's problem with their movies with three words: "Howard The Duck".
Marvel can at this point pull him out in the open without batting an eye, while DC STILL have problems making their MAINSTREAM heroes work.