The Thunder Mafia - 4 Pixies Sorcerers with 160 DPR for 4 rounds in a burst 3

[GPuzzle]

Spoiler: The Concept

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Combine the vulnerability from Sarifal Feywarden with the multiattacks of Rolling Echo to produce massive DPR.

Spoiler: The Build, level 14

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Race: Pixie (you can fit 4 of them in a single square and hover over an enemy's head, which leads to being able to affect a multitude of targets).
Class: Sorcerer (the best option for this level)
Spell Source: Storm Sorcerer (because it's insanely thematic)
Multiclass: Bard (requirement for Voice of Thunder)
Paragon Path: Voice of Thunder (Rolling Echo is a PP power, so we have to take it)
Theme: Sarifal Feywarden (you know, Vulnerability 10 is awesome)

Strength 14
Constitution 12
Dexteritry 22
Intelligence 9
Wisdom 11
Charisma 22

Feats
L1-Superior Implement Proficiency (Resonating Dagger)
L2-Toughness (retrained to Arcane Admixture - Acid Orb, Thunder at level 12)
L4-Dual Implement Spellcaster
L6-War Wizard's Expertise
L8-Bard Multiclass
L10-Durable (retrained to Arcane Admixture - Sarifal's Blessing, Thunder at level 11)
L11-Resounding Thunder
L12-Thunder's Rumble
L14-Improved Initiative

At-Will
L1-Acid Orb

Encounter
L11-Rolling Echo

Theme
L1-Sarifal's Blessing

Items
+3 Resonating Rebounding Dagger
+3 Wand of Thunderous Anguish

Spoiler: Numbers

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Attacks are at +18 vs Reflex when with CA. 24-18-1=5. 0,05*5=0,25(chance to miss). 1-(0,25(chance to miss)+0,05 (chance to crit))=0,7(chance to hit)

0,7*2d6+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+6+6+2+10=0,7*7+21+24=0,7*52= 36,4 average damage against one enemy

0,05*3d6+12+49=0,05*10,5+61=0,05*71,5=3,575 average damage when critting against one enemy

36,4+3,575=39,975 average damage against one target with one attack.

Average damage done by the 4 Pixies: 159,9 against a single target, targetting all targets in a burst 3.

Average monster health at level 14: 24+8*14=136

So basically 159,9 DPR in a total of 49 squares for 4 rounds.

[Echobeats]

Nice. A few questions:

1. Can we have a breakdown of the damage modifiers?
2. I may be reading the numbers incorrectly, but are you including both the attacks granted by Rolling Echo? Or are we assume any monsters that survive the first attack will move out of range the first chance they get?
3. The burst size is 3 but the Sarifal Feywarden's aura size is 2. This means you can't impose the vulnerability 10 over the whole area. Unless you've found some way to enlarge the aura which I've missed?
4. Have you remembered the free attack from the Rebounding Dagger against any targets you miss? I think this would work with an Implement attack, correct?
5. Even with War Wizard's Expertise and resist 10 thunder from the Theme, each pixie risks doing serious damage to his three allies with this. I calculate 89 hp. Have you worked out the chances of reducing an ally from full hp to 0hp in one go?

[GPuzzle]

Damage: 6(Charisma)+8(2+Dexteritry)+3(Superior Implement)+3(Dagger)+3(Wand)+9(bonus granted by other pixies' wands)+3(Thunder's Rumble)+10(Sarifal's Blessing)=14+21+10=45 on static modifiers.

I was assuming Tofu, actually. If positioning's a big deal, Mark of Storm+Rushing Cleats+Superior Implement Dagger makes it a slide 3.

Sarifal's Blessing is an Arcane Power, which means it can be used with Arcane Admixture and Resounding Thunder.

Damage actually might be higher due to Acid Orb spam, but I can't get it right. But yeah, it should be higher than it is right now.

Rolling Echo is all enemies, not all creatures, in burst. So no risk there.

[Epinephrine]

+9(bonus granted by other pixies' wands)

I'm trying to figure out (away from books) if this damage should be getting bonuses. From what I remember having played a bard with that wand, it's a separate parcel of damage (3 thunder) whenever an ally hits (or damages?) the target. Does Sarifal make the target vulnerable just to your attacks, or to you? If it's vulnerable to your damage it's another 30 damage a hit. Also, I don't know if you can get the bonus damage from a resonating dagger (superior implement) and the effect from the wand, since you have to pick one item to use for the attack (even with dual implement spellcasting).

[GPuzzle]

I'm trying to figure out (away from books) if this damage should be getting bonuses. From what I remember having played a bard with that wand, it's a separate parcel of damage (3 thunder) whenever an ally hits (or damages?) the target. Does Sarifal make the target vulnerable just to your attacks, or to you? If it's vulnerable to your damage it's another 30 damage a hit. Also, I don't know if you can get the bonus damage from a resonating dagger (superior implement) and the effect from the wand, since you have to pick one item to use for the attack (even with dual implement spellcasting).

Uhm... Not sure. But yeah, in that case, holy cow, 27 extra damage is meaty.

[Echobeats]

Damage: 6(Charisma)+8(2+Dexteritry)+3(Superior Implement)+3(Dagger)+3(Wand)+9(bonus granted by other pixies' wands)+3(Thunder's Rumble)+10(Sarifal's Blessing)=14+21+10=45 on static modifiers.

Thanks. Don't see anything non-stackable there.

I was assuming Tofu, actually. If positioning's a big deal, Mark of Storm+Rushing Cleats+Superior Implement Dagger makes it a slide 3.

An immobilise would be better, so that you can guarantee to target the same enemies again with the echo. Any way you can get that in?

Sarifal's Blessing is an Arcane Power, which means it can be used with Arcane Admixture and Resounding Thunder.

I still don't see how you are enlarging your aura 2. Resounding Thunder enlarges burst and blasts.

Damage actually might be higher due to Acid Orb spam, but I can't get it right. But yeah, it should be higher than it is right now.

I think you would need to know the number of targets to work out the chance that you will miss at least one of them. Or do you get another attack for each miss? The wording doesn't limit it to once per turn but I'm not sure if some general rule might. If not I think you just multiply the DPR of Acid Orb by your chance to miss.

Rolling Echo is all enemies, not all creatures, in burst. So no risk there.

Ah, missed that. Thanks.

Epinephrine is right that the other pixies' wands give you a separate parcel of damage rather than a bonus. So I think vulnerability would apply at least twice (once from you and once from allies). Is there anything that would prevent it from applying four times?

[GPuzzle]

Ah, ****.

Oh well, might as well drop Resounding Thunder, and update it to add the Acid Orbs and the extra vulnerability taps.

That way we can possibly get the DPR to "really freaking high".

[Echobeats]

Resounding Thunder is still worth having. It adds a 24-square perimeter (practically doubling your number of possible tofu targets) which are susceptible to every element of your damage except the vulnerability 10.

[GPuzzle]

Actually, misread Sarifal's Blessing. So I guess they have a nova like that for one round. Damnit. Anyway, I've gotta check their Nova round+following rounds DPR.

[Darth Paul]

WARNING: 3.5e Veteran, 4e NOOB here... please excuse my ignorance.

Well...

Interesting. But do the feats have to be taken in that precise order (I don't know a darn thing about 4e, just trying to puzzle out if it's worth investing in the books and trying to evangelize my group into converting- this forum is part of my research) to make the character? Because if so, then this is obviously a character that sprang fully formed into existence at Lvl 14, not a realistic character that might have developed over time.

Who takes a feat for proficiency in a Resonating Dagger at 1st level, anyway? (OK, I will be corrected and I am sure I'll find out everybody in 4e buys one at 1st level, right?) I would have started with Improved Initiative or Toughness myself, in making an actual character. Improves the odds of actually surviving to 14th level someday.

The Retraining thing is interesting, first time I've heard of that, obviously it is a core feature of 4e. Why not take the feats you wanted the first time around? Level requirements?

How many levels of Bard multiclass are being taken? Just one level?

Last but not least- This is 4 identical 14th-level Pixie Sorceror/Bards, correct?

Do you think that's very likely to happen?

See, this is why my Dwarf fighter just stomps on Pixies as soon as he sees 'em. It stops this sort of thing before it starts. (I blame Tinkerbell for setting a bad example for all of them.)

[GPuzzle]

First - it's Theo-Op. I've been trying to create a Thunder Mafia for long now, and this was the best attempt. Currently experimenting with Revenant Dwarf Warlocks/Lyrandar Wind-Rider and Alchemical Stuff. Second Wind as a minor by being a Dwarf, throw Resonance Crystal, chrage with your Gouge with Eldritch Strike, deal a buttload of damage, and repeat.

Feat Order can be changed, and certainly would if I were to play this character.

Improved Initiative is nifty. Not ERMAGHERD NECESSARY especially because I'm Dex secondary. Toughness and Durable are throwaway feats. Those feats I'm retraining into are Paragon Feats, which I can only get past level 11. In some cases, it also involves stat requirements.

Oh boy, here we go.

4e has two types of MC'ing - I'm using multiclass. What is it? Basically, you take a feat. Gain a skill, a small feature of that class, and also count as that class. The Paragon Path I'm taking (Voice of Thunder) is a Bard Paragon Path that actually suits Sorcerers more due to the Encounter attack power which you can do every single round. You cannot take powers from that class unless you spend more feats. You still only have your main class. No levels. Just a feat.

The second is hybriding.

STAY AWAY FROM IT. Until you've gained system mastery, that is. It's pretty insane, and complicated. But can be pretty awesome, you just need to learn how to piece it together. And ultimately, refluffing will benefit you a lot more, so that's something you need to learn when going into 4e.

[Darth Paul]

STAY AWAY FROM IT.

This is starting to sound like my best approach to the whole 4e mess, from what I've been reading in this forum. I am well above average intelligence (D&D score 14 ), but I am nothing but confused with references to Fighters who are Warlords, Wizards who are Controllers, Ranger/Strikers (that's a European football team position, if I'm not mistaken...), and so on, ad infinitum...

I think I'ma goin' back to my 3.5 dimension, where I feel at home.

[GPuzzle]

No, don't! We need more people!

Just stay away from hybrids. Try making a simple character.

There are four roles in 4e: Defender (Fighters, Paladins) who especialize in protecting their teammates, Strikers (Rangers, Rogues, Monks, Sorcerers, Barbarians, Warlocks) who especialize in hitting hard (and oftentimes hitting again and again), Controllers (Wizards, Druids, Psions) who especialize in hampering their enemies, and Leaders (Clerics, Ardents) who make everyone around them better.

Try making something simple, like a Warlord, and post it here. I'll see what's being done, and give you tips on how to improve it.

[georgie_leech]

This is starting to sound like my best approach to the whole 4e mess, from what I've been reading in this forum. I am well above average intelligence (D&D score 14 ), but I am nothing but confused with references to Fighters who are Warlords, Wizards who are Controllers, Ranger/Strikers (that's a European football team position, if I'm not mistaken...), and so on, ad infinitum...

I think I'ma goin' back to my 3.5 dimension, where I feel at home.

To be fair, you'd be confused if you just jumped into the 3.5 forums without knowing the game very well first. 4E is a fundamentally different game from 3.5, that mostly only shares some terminology. That's not to say it's horribly complex or difficult to learn; in some ways it's easier, in others it's more technical. Much like the 3.5 side, the 4E forums (and on other sites) tend to have higher optimisation levels than you need to just pick up and start playing. For that matter, just picking a class, sticking an 18 in the primary stat, and picking feats and powers that seem cool and thematic creates a perfectly reasonable character to play with, at least if you stick with Heroic (levels 1-10) and the PHB's. Just remember that in 4E, to-hit bonuses are king, and no character can do it all.

[tcrudisi]

That damage seems low. Is that 160 dpr for each Pixie or for all four of them? I'm too lazy to do the math.

A few months ago, I played in an all Pixie campaign. Myself and the other striker were both Sorcs. I went Voice of Thunder (I was thunder), he went Lightning Fury (and he was Lightning). We pretty much took out in one round any enemy we ran across, from levels 11-18.

So 160 doesn't seem like much.

I do notice that you don't have Arcane Reach. That's a mandatory feat for this build. Nothing kills your dpr like having monster move out of range. Arcane Reach helps prevent that.

[Kurald Galain]

That damage seems low. Is that 160 dpr for each Pixie or for all four of them? I'm too lazy to do the math.

Apparently it's 40 each, which is not all that impressive at this level.

For example, a blaster wizard going nova could drop four attacks on the same target (standard/move/minor/immediate) for 30-40 damage each, and with a better to-hit due to Elemental Echo. So that would roughly be 0.75 * 35 * 4 = 105 damage all by himself, and do it again the next round, and most of that is in area effects too. So if you take four of those, you'd have 400+ DPR; and I'm sure that can be optimized some more, and I'm also sure that an infernalock or a barbarian can top that if they want.

As I recall, the benchmark for at will DPR for a decent striker is 30 points by the end of heroic, so doing 40 by mid-paragon using encounter powers is hardly "massive".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As I recall, the benchmark for at will DPR for a decent striker is 30 points by the end of heroic, so doing 40 by mid-paragon using encounter powers is hardly "massive".

At the risk of derailing the thread, would you mind posting one such build for a rogue? I can't see how you could reach 30 DPR at level 10 with at-wills, not consistently, and I understand that rogues are considered a decent striker. So either I'm missing a feat somewhere that adds 20 to damage, or I am misunderstanding the definition of some of the terms above.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Kurald Galain]

At the risk of derailing the thread, would you mind posting one such build for a rogue?

Riposte Strike. At a rough estimate, 22 damage * 0.8 to-hit * 2 attacks per round = 35 DPR.

[tcrudisi]

Okay, I do note that its missing items (mostly) and that would contribute a substantial loss. The lack of an augment alone is +3 for each.

And I'm not quite sure why there are all the energy admixtures. The main spell is already Thunder; why not take feats to improve that? And the thunder paragon feat is another +3. Plus there's the thunder/lightning item set which could easily add another +2. And why not an Accurate Staff of Ruin? That would give you another +3. Those changes alone look like they'd add +11ish damage to each character.

I'm sure there are a lot more; I just did a quick scan.

I would also up that Charisma to 24 and dump Dex down to 20. Same damage but +1 to hit. Str would drop a couple of points, but meh.

[Sol]

Apparently it's 40 each, [sic]
As I recall, the benchmark for at will DPR for a decent striker is 30 points by the end of heroic, so doing 40 by mid-paragon using encounter powers is hardly "massive".

To be fair here, he's both being entirely disingenuous by quadrupling the build's DPR (and saying there's 4 of them), and yet he's also only assuming 1 target in the CB3.

So really, my only issue with this thread/concept is that gpuzzle is using the term "DPR" wrong on almost every level.

A per-target-DPR of 40 is perfectly acceptable, if not particularly impressive in mid-paragon. If we assume a 4-target average (which is admittedly maybe high, but 3 targets in a CB3 is pretty reasonable), hey, he's actually correct on the 160 label, and he's also correct in his logic that one AoE striker is pretty useless without multiple other AoE strikers, because what matters is making things dead, not removing 1/4th of their HP per round.

[GPuzzle]

Numbers right through wrong readings.

Seems to be pretty common to me.