Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread IX: "Post-human Centipede"

[Platinius]

Indeed, the real problem that arises from that is that it makes the Tyranids actually completely unstoppable since swords, guns and bombs can't really stop them and it has ready been established that they adapt extremely fast to any regular (as far as that term can be applied here) chemical or biological weapon. I like my grimdark GRIMDARK, but it only becomes so when there is a long shot of hope with incredible sacrifice. Logically there is none and I do not mean for the individual Guardsman or Space Marine or even the Imperium, but for all life in the galaxy, human or xeno, chaoslover or chaoshater, all gone, because of flawed writing.
The only who might (and only might) have a chance would be Nurgle (the God of Disease and the only one capable of engineering bio-chemical weapons to which the Tyranids might not adapt too fast) and the Necrons. Even their victory would spell doom to all the other factions, since it would mean that either of them gained the power to destroy the biggest force in galaxy.

Hence they are not so big and bad and ultimately stoppable so that we can argue about books and bad writing and whatnot.

[Brother Oni]

In terms of raw materials, 'biomass' is just carbon and water after it's been digested anyway - and if you think about it they're going to need heavy elements (easily found in minerals) to make all those super-strong Carnifex carapaces etc.

[Biochemist pedant] 'Biomass' is amino acids, polysaccharides and lipids (and various other macro/micronutrients). You can't just stick carbon and water together and make glucose, plus why spend all that effort and energy building complex biological structures out of its subunits when it's already pre-existing.

The question then of course is how they get the energy out of it. It's hard to imagine how you could make a biotech fusion reactor... but then if their giant space squid are propelled by essentially chemical rockets that must be monstrously inefficient and slow.

There are such things as hydrogen bioreactors and simply expelling the gas through suitably shaped orifices would be enough to get thrust given enough time (I can hear the catgirls screaming now).

[comicshorse]

There are such things as hydrogen bioreactors and simply expelling the gas through suitably shaped orifices would be enough to get thrust given enough time (I can hear the catgirls screaming now).

I find it suitably GW that the Great Devourer's fleets may be farting their way across the galaxy

[LCP]

[Biochemist pedant] 'Biomass' is amino acids, polysaccharides and lipids (and various other macro/micronutrients).

I'm a physicist so to me that is still just a bucket of C, O and H.

Not disagreeing with you at all! I just wasn't talking in terms of molecules.

simply expelling the gas through suitably shaped orifices would be enough to get thrust given enough time (I can hear the catgirls screaming now).

Expelling it how? You've still got to conserve energy and you've got to generate a lot of thrust.


With regard to the whole "how do you stop a swarm that's just stripped the biosphere off a whole planet" - I was under the impression that the canon answer is you don't. That's the Kryptmann doctrine, right? Pull out of low-value worlds and use Exterminatus once the 'nids have descended to feed; do that a few times until you've bled and starved the hive fleet enough that it can be beaten. Hope it doesn't eat anywhere really valuable in the meantime.

Also, space is a really hostile environment for just about anything. The hive fleet can eat enough stuff to make umpty trillion termagants, if they're all aboard a finite number of hive ships and those hive ships get torpedoed, you've killed them all.

[Artanis]

From Lexicanum:

Tyranids do not travel via Warp jumps, such as the Imperium does, and so instead rely on their Narvhal ships. Through the use of monofilament spines clustered along a Narvhal's bow which can interpret a wide range of sensory input and even a broad spectrum of gravimetric signals, a Narvhal can detect the presence of a planetary system at an incredible distance away. It can then somehow harness the system's gravity to create a corridor of compressed-space through which Tyranid vessels can travel towards the system at a swift rate. Whilst slower than proper warp travel, this method is infinitely more reliable.

tl;dr version: Tyranid ships use space magic.

[Cheesegear]

With regard to the whole "how do you stop a swarm that's just stripped the biosphere off a whole planet" - I was under the impression that the canon answer is you don't. That's the Kryptmann doctrine, right? Pull out of low-value worlds and use Exterminatus once the 'nids have descended to feed; do that a few times until you've bled and starved the hive fleet enough that it can be beaten.

Yes. The answer to Tyranids is to starve them out, the Eldar try real hard at doing it, but the Imperium keeps on getting in the way and giving the 'Nids stuff to eat.
That said, Iyanden's answer of dropping a Warp hole in front of the Tyranids seemed to work pretty well. The only problem is the enormous sacrifice on the Eldar's part that was required to make that tear in space. That said, the Imperium would have no problem making that same sacrifice, if only the Eldar would actually help out and tell the humans how they did it.

[LCP]

That said, the Imperium would have no problem making that same sacrifice, if only the Eldar would actually help out and tell the humans how they did it.

I'm pretty sure the humans already know how.

[Platinius]

I know Dawn of War 2 is not very canon, but I liked the idea of a specifically designed plague that can kill a certain strain/Hivefleet of Tyranids to a certain point of genetic deviation (like in the game). It doesn't work on all, but it would allow for the Tyranids to be beaten back fleet by fleet, with the fraction of the cost in men and material (and far less planets).


Concerning Tyranids and genetics in more general terms, I like to think that all Tyranids inside the same fleet actually all have the same genetic code with different parts being active. If they get confronted with something they activate the parts that would make them more adapted to the situation.
Primary danger is radiation? Gaunts activate the radiation armour which may not be so strong against some chemical weapons or blunt trauma, but now they would die in days or weeks from exposure rather than minutes or hours. Flames? Make fire proof armour that may not be so strong against.... you get what I mean.
As far as I understood only a Norn Queen can decide which genes/mutations --> modes/variations will be given to the fleet.
That would make the Tyranids prone to mutations which have to be checked and analyzed by the Norn Queen, without the Norn Queen the (unwanted) mutaions would start to pile up until one tyranid doesn't recognize the other as tyranid anymore, making them turning on each other. That would also explain how Hivefleets can fight each other, after having evolved far enough apart, they don't recognize each other as tyranids and will kill/devour the competition.

[Grim Portent]

I think the 'nid codex does reference a bioweapon being used to wipe out a fleet. It stopped working after the first time, no ones managed to make a new plague to kill them.

The fluff for hive fleet Gorgon(?) states that Tyranids bioforms come in iterations, each modified according to the threats the last faced, sacrificing some characteristics to bolster others. The Tau took advantage of this by cycling between different weapons which meant each new wave was shot by a weapon (energy/solid projectile) it wasn't resistant to. Each wave was made resilient to the weapon the last wave was massacred by and they starved themselves of biomass.

[lord_khaine]

Indeed, the real problem that arises from that is that it makes the Tyranids actually completely unstoppable since swords, guns and bombs can't really stop them and it has ready been established that they adapt extremely fast to any regular (as far as that term can be applied here) chemical or biological weapon.

No..? where does this idea come from? Tyranids die just fine from repeated blunt trauma, or loss of vital bodyparts.

That said, Iyanden's answer of dropping a Warp hole in front of the Tyranids seemed to work pretty well. The only problem is the enormous sacrifice on the Eldar's part that was required to make that tear in space. That said, the Imperium would have no problem making that same sacrifice, if only the Eldar would actually help out and tell the humans how they did it.

I think the Eldars dislike the thought of doing this, because they dont trust the emperium to not start doing the same to everyone else they dislike, including other Eldars.

[Brother Oni]

I'm a physicist so to me that is still just a bucket of C, O and H.

Nitrogen and sulphur are also common suspects.

Expelling it how? You've still got to conserve energy and you've got to generate a lot of thrust.

The bombardier beetle can generate hydrogen peroxide as a byproduct from cellular metabolism, plus critters like the mantis shrimp or pistol crab can generate cavitation bubbles of up to 4,700°C. Hydrogen has an autoignition temperature of only 536°C, so combine the rocket fuel with the hydrogen from a bioreactor, plus the 'sparking' mechanism from a mantis shrimp, stick that all inside a strong enough cavity to take the explosion, plus a valve/orifice to expel the reaction mass (waste products) once the pressure exceeds a certain level and you have a biological rocket engine.

Alternatively as comicshorse said, they fart their way through space. In this case, you would have a distend-able organ which expands as the waste gases build up. Once it reaches a certain pressure, a valve is forced open and the gases escape while the organ relaxes, much like the intestines of a human. The waste expelling can be aided if the waste orifice is shaped like a tube thus smooth muscle can expand and contract quickly and push any physical waste out with the waste gases (if you've ever had really bad food poisoning, you'll know exactly what I mean).

As I understand it, velocity is conserved in space, so if they expel gas for long enough (or hard enough if they've had the equivalent of a really bad curry), they should be able to build up some decent speed once they overcome the initial inertia.

Did I really just go in depth into the mechanics of flatulence?

tl;dr version: Tyranid ships use space magic.

That's their inter-system travel, once they're in system, they use other means of propulsion.

[Platinius]

The imperial forces need "only" to modify the original strain of that plague to each new hivefleet. Also, unlike in some comics or tv shows, something can only adapt so far without loosing something else and the tyranids have clearly shown to do. Also, to make such a weapon the imperial forces need up-to-date tissue samples (like they did in Dawn of War II) and some time to properly adapt the weapon to each new fleet and it may not work because of calculation/manufacturing errors or it took them to long or it doesn't kill all of them and so on. It is far from perfect or simple, but it is a solution.


Concerning that with incident with the Tau, one would think a Hive Tyrant would know the ground breaking tactics of "distraction" and "infiltration". Most of his troops needn't even survive, only of a few genestealers and/or lictors need to come in close and the feast begins. An army in disarray seems the perfect prey for such high speed killing machines, then the Hive Tyrant could with relatively little effort close in and finish them off. With their big and hard claws, tyranids seem perfect for digging their way into an enemy camp or defensive lines or fortress etc.
Did the writer really believe that an enemy as versatile as the 'Nids could be defeated by the Tau because they switched their guns back and forth a few times? It would perhaps (and only perhaps) work on feral 'Nids with no greater mind to lead them.

Edit: what I meant with the adapting armour was how much physical trauma is necessary to take one down. Three hits with the chainsword is 50% more work and time invested per kill than two hits and is easily the difference between a Space Marine massacring a group of gaunts or being massacred by them.

[LCP]

No..? where does this idea come from? Tyranids die just fine from repeated blunt trauma, or loss of vital bodyparts.

I think the point is not that individual Tyranids are immune to conventional weaponry, but that if the hive fleet has fed on (and converted) an entire biosphere before fighting you, you will run out of munitions long before they run out of Tyranids.

To put it in perspective:

World nuclear stockpile: ~7,000,000 tonnes of TNT.
Biomass of Earth: ~560,000,000,000 tonnes.

So even if you set off the entire nuclear stockpile of Earth, it'd give you about 13g of TNT per tonne of biomass.

Of course, the Tyranids will not turn the stuff they consume into new Tyranids with 100% efficiency - but they've still got quite a bit of wiggle room in those numbers. Not to mention the fact that they tend to consume multiple planets in one go.

Against an individual Tyranid, it's perfectly possible to win a conventional fight. Against a Tyranid hive fleet, it's not possible to win a conventional war.

Nitrogen and sulphur are also common suspects.

Again, physicist. If it's less than 10%, it's 0

I'm with you on the idea of hydrogen peroxide fuel - but I'd see that as the absolute lower limit of operational efficiency. If they're "farting their way through space", they're expelling their jet fuel at really puny velocities. Never mind the fact that Imperial ships with their ion thrusters would be moving orders of magnitude faster than them - it would take them ludicrous spans of time to close the distance from the edge of a solar system to their target planet.

And again, the energy to expel those particles has to come from somewhere. If they're not directly burning fuel, then biological digestion is a monstrously inefficient way of getting it.

[Grim Portent]

Perhaps the Tyranids are propelled through space by the sheer psychic power of Omnomnom?

[Hexalan]

Alternatively as comicshorse said, they fart their way through space.
blah blah blah
Did I really just go in depth into the mechanics of flatulence?



That's their inter-system travel, once they're in system, they use other means of propulsion.

Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread X: "Farting our Way through Space"

[lord_khaine]

Concerning that with incident with the Tau, one would think a Hive Tyrant would know the ground breaking tactics of "distraction" and "infiltration". Most of his troops needn't even survive, only of a few genestealers and/or lictors need to come in close and the feast begins. An army in disarray seems the perfect prey for such high speed killing machines, then the Hive Tyrant could with relatively little effort close in and finish them off. With their big and hard claws, tyranids seem perfect for digging their way into an enemy camp or defensive lines or fortress etc.
Did the writer really believe that an enemy as versatile as the 'Nids could be defeated by the Tau because they switched their guns back and forth a few times? It would perhaps (and only perhaps) work on feral 'Nids with no greater mind to lead them.

And you dont think that Tau Commanders are familliar with those tactics as well..? A few genestealers or lictors is not an army in disarray, its a dead squard of fire warriors followed by some stray Tyranids getting blasted to kingdom come.
Not to mention, actual armies should either be moving around so often that trying to dig your way down under them would be a lesson infutility, or else live in a fortified fortress bunker where the sensers would pick up disturbances in the ground hours before they reached the fort.

I think the point is not that individual Tyranids are immune to conventional weaponry, but that if the hive fleet has fed on (and converted) an entire biosphere before fighting you, you will run out of munitions long before they run out of Tyranids.

To put it in perspective:

World nuclear stockpile: ~7,000,000 tonnes of TNT.
Biomass of Earth: ~560,000,000,000 tonnes.

So even if you set off the entire nuclear stockpile of Earth, it'd give you about 13g of TNT per tonne of biomass.

Of course, the Tyranids will not turn the stuff they consume into new Tyranids with 100% efficiency - but they've still got quite a bit of wiggle room in those numbers. Not to mention the fact that they tend to consume multiple planets in one go.

Against an individual Tyranid, it's perfectly possible to win a conventional fight. Against a Tyranid hive fleet, it's not possible to win a conventional war.

See.. thats the part i disagree about, to start with its certainly going to cost the hive fleet a lot of reasources both to get to the planet and to consume it, things thats going to leave it behind on biomass before the actual eating starts, where i do think anything above a 10% efficiency is unrelalistic in the building of any larger Tyranid forms.

Also, i kinda think the 40th k verse has a bit more and better bombs than we do

[Artanis]

The way I read it, it seems to me that the Tau were about as terrible a target as Hive Fleet Gorgon could have picked. Gorgon's "thing" was that it was more flexible than other hive fleets, but few (if any) WH40K factions are as good at changing things up on the fly as the Tau. Meanwhile, Gorgon's big weakness was to having their Big Ones sniped, which again the Tau are one of the best at.

[Platinius]

And you dont think that Tau Commanders are familliar with those tactics as well..? A few genestealers or lictors is not an army in disarray, its a dead squard of fire warriors followed by some stray Tyranids getting blasted to kingdom come.
Not to mention, actual armies should either be moving around so often that trying to dig your way down under them would be a lesson infutility, or else live in a fortified fortress bunker where the sensers would pick up disturbances in the ground hours before they reached the fort.



See.. that's the part i disagree about, to start with its certainly going to cost the hive fleet a lot of resources both to get to the planet and to consume it, things that's going to leave it behind on biomass before the actual eating starts, where i do think anything above a 10% efficiency is unrealistic in the building of any larger Tyranid forms.

Also, i kinda think the 40th k verse has a bit more and better bombs than we do

Except that Genestealers are ultra-fast close-combat killing-machines with one capable of killing a dozen shas'la in as many seconds or less and will already be in their neighbours' foxhole before they even notice their neighbouring squad has been shredded into ripper chow. Ridiculously fast, rending claws, surprisingly quiet and relatively small targets make them small razor balls of death and if a hundred gaunts and a dozen warriors have to die for just one genestealer to get into an enemy bunker or camp, that is still a win since that is where they excel. I guarantee you when the enemy gets inside your camp and starts massacring key personnel, the army will be very soon in disarray, not necessarily for long, but that is more than enough for a final assault by the Hive Tyrant to break through defensive positions and rout the enemy. That doesn't mean that they are all dead, but then they have lost cohesion and the 'Nids can nomnomnom them in mouth-sized packages with little difficulty. Traditional divide and conquer, one of the oldest tricks in the book.


Also: Your are right about Tau commanders be aware of such a strategy and prepare for it as much as possible and that is where writers come in with little to no understanding of tactics beyond hollywood, however we could also chalk it up to Tau propaganda which would actually suit me much better (makes it more GRIMDARK) even if I know that is not the case

[Brother Oni]

Again, physicist. If it's less than 10%, it's 0

Sounds like an arbitrary cut off point to me. If you didn't have the 1.5% of calcium in your composition, you wouldn't have bones, teeth or even functional cells.

Besides, isn't p≥ 0.05 statistically significant, even to a physicist?

I'm with you on the idea of hydrogen peroxide fuel - but I'd see that as the absolute lower limit of operational efficiency. If they're "farting their way through space", they're expelling their jet fuel at really puny velocities.

I'd agree with you - I'm not claiming it's fast, I'm just claiming it's possible.

That said, they have a set speed by canon in Battlefleet Gothic. In that game, an Imperium battleship class moves at 15cm/turn and an adolescent or juvenile hive ship has the same speed. The Lunar class cruisers moves at 20cm/turn, which is on par with most Tyranid ships. I know tabletop is a poor way to measure effectiveness, but given that we have no other points of reference, it's all we have.

And again, the energy to expel those particles has to come from somewhere. If they're not directly burning fuel, then biological digestion is a monstrously inefficient way of getting it.

If it's biological, then it's ATP. While the energy density of fat is only 38 MJ/kg, compared to jet fuel's 43 MJ/kg, it's a damn sight easier to synthesise a kg of fat than a kg of jet fuel.

I'm not sure why you appear to be so hung up on where the energy comes from - smooth muscle contracting and relaxing requires comparatively little energy and a simple pressure gradient does the rest.

There's also the possibility that most of what they eat is simply burnt as fuel/energy to shift the hive fleet around - it would explain why they're constantly eating.

Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread X: "Farting our Way through Space"

Dammit, you're not supposed to give Zorg ideas!

Ridiculously fast, rending claws, surprisingly quiet and relatively small targets make them small razor balls of death and if a hundred gaunts and a dozen warriors have to die for just one genestealer to get into an enemy bunker or camp, that is still a win since that is where they excel.

'Stealers aren't that small: the Lexicanum says they're 1.9m tall and weigh 300kg, so about the same weight as ~5 Tau Fire Warriors.

[Cheesegear]

Dammit, you're not supposed to give Zorg ideas!

I still think we need to get Nobody Poops at some point.

'Stealers aren't that small: the Lexicanum says they're 1.9m tall and weigh 300kg.

That's not what my holy Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer says. The Departmento Munitorum says that Genestealers are slow and sluggish, with puny claws. Easy to deal with using my standard issue Lasgun. If that doesn't work, Genestealers are easily dispatched with a bayonet. I'm not afraid of no Genestealers! My Commissar said that this battle would be a walk in the park.

[Cikomyr]

Except that Genestealers are ultra-fast close-combat killing-machines with one capable of killing a dozen shas'la in as many seconds or less and will already be in their neighbours' foxhole before they even notice their neighbouring squad has been shredded into ripper chow. Ridiculously fast, rending claws, surprisingly quiet and relatively small targets make them small razor balls of death and if a hundred gaunts and a dozen warriors have to die for just one genestealer to get into an enemy bunker or camp, that is still a win since that is where they excel. I guarantee you when the enemy gets inside your camp and starts massacring key personnel, the army will be very soon in disarray, not necessarily for long, but that is more than enough for a final assault by the Hive Tyrant to break through defensive positions and rout the enemy. That doesn't mean that they are all dead, but then they have lost cohesion and the 'Nids can nomnomnom them in mouth-sized packages with little difficulty. Traditional divide and conquer, one of the oldest tricks in the book.


Also: Your are right about Tau commanders be aware of such a strategy and prepare for it as much as possible and that is where writers come in with little to no understanding of tactics beyond hollywood, however we could also chalk it up to Tau propaganda which would actually suit me much better (makes it more GRIMDARK) even if I know that is not the case

Why would the Tau stay static in their fight against Tyrannid? Why would they stay content to sit and try to shoot as many 'Nids as possible, knowing they are still losing ground?

core Tau tactic emphasize mobility and using your enemy's agenda against itself. Following your example, a charging Tyranid army would probably be assaulting a decoy Tau base rigged to blow up once overrun.

the IG might be a big follower of "stand up and fight", but the Tau are all about evade/strikes tactics. They will not just stand up and fight, and no amount of Nid fanboyism/Tau denialism is going to change that.

[Brother Oni]

That's not what my holy Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer says. The Departmento Munitorum says that Genestealers are slow and sluggish, with puny claws. Easy to deal with using my standard issue Lasgun. If that doesn't work, Genestealers are easily dispatched with a bayonet. I'm not afraid of no Genestealers! My Commissar said that this battle would be a walk in the park.

Whoa, that was some battle... I'm still a little woozy on the details, but I'm alive, so I guess that means we won. You know, that near death experience has really brought home how fragile life is and I've been thinking, maybe it's time for me to settle down on a nice quiet planet somewhere, maybe find a nice girl and start a family...

core Tau tactic emphasize mobility and using your enemy's agenda against itself. Following your example, a charging Tyranid army would probably be assaulting a decoy Tau base rigged to blow up once overrun.

I believe there were two main Tau war philosophies - Mont'ka and Kauyon. Your first sentence references the former (blow important crap up with big guns then leg it), while your example references the latter (draw them into a kill zone then massacre them).

Against the Tyranids, sniping the synapse creatures are an ideal target for Mont'ka, making the rest of the horde dumb enough for a Kauyon ambush. Stealers can generally operate without synapse (unless the Patriarch is killed), are fast but prone to getting shot up while trying to get into range (5+ carapace save I think). In an urban environment, they'd be ideal - on a battlefield that the Tau have picked with lots of open terrain and nice clear sight lines, not so much.

[Cikomyr]

I believe there were two main Tau war philosophies - Mont'ka and Kauyon. Your first sentence references the former (blow important crap up with big guns then leg it), while your example references the latter (draw them into a kill zone then massacre them).

Against the Tyranids, sniping the synapse creatures are an ideal target for Mont'ka, making the rest of the horde dumb enough for a Kauyon ambush. Stealers can generally operate without synapse (unless the Patriarch is killed), are fast but prone to getting shot up while trying to get into range (5+ carapace save I think). In an urban environment, they'd be ideal - on a battlefield that the Tau have picked with lots of open terrain and nice clear sight lines, not so much.

You make the same mistake as many rookie Fire Warriors, thinking it's Mont'ka or Kauyon.

While the game might for you to pick one over the other, the real Tau tacticians know that both Mont'ka and Kauyon have to be embraced and followed. They are not opposed; they are complementary.

[Neon Knight]

Against the Tyranids, sniping the synapse creatures are an ideal target for Mont'ka, making the rest of the horde dumb enough for a Kauyon ambush. Stealers can generally operate without synapse (unless the Patriarch is killed), are fast but prone to getting shot up while trying to get into range (5+ carapace save I think). In an urban environment, they'd be ideal - on a battlefield that the Tau have picked with lots of open terrain and nice clear sight lines, not so much.

Stealers are most ideal in an extreme interior environment - most obviously a Space Hulk - and in a match-up where their great CQC and armor-rending abilities are warranted (terminators.) Even in a built up urban area, wouldn't cheaper gaunts be more cost effective? Just as survivable, cheaper and more easily massed, and their fighting abilities are sufficient to take on relative cannon fodder like Firewarriors and Kroot Carnivores. Stealers would be most ideal in picking off isolated Broadsides or mobbing a Riptide, or counter-ambushing Stealth Suits. And even for those purposes, you have Lictors or Raveners which can also do the job.

I have to admit, aside from their unique cult forming role, "the ultimate shock trooper" as the Lexicanum referred to it always seemed ever so slightly redundant. Looking aside from the fact that Genestealers, Lictors, and Raveners are not that popular in the Tabletop anyway compared to Flyrants and Tervigons.

[13_CBS]

Whoa, that was some battle... I'm still a little woozy on the details, but I'm alive, so I guess that means we won. You know, that near death experience has really brought home how fragile life is and I've been thinking, maybe it's time for me to settle down on a nice quiet planet somewhere, maybe find a nice girl and start a family...

My baby has four arms and chitinous plating all over its body! Surely, this is a blessing from the Emperor.

[comicshorse]

My baby has four arms and chitinous plating all over its body! Surely, this is a blessing from the Emperor.

After all doesn't Imperial wisdom say 'Four armed is fore warned'

[Brother Oni]

While the game might for you to pick one over the other, the real Tau tacticians know that both Mont'ka and Kauyon have to be embraced and followed. They are not opposed; they are complementary.

I thought I did? Snipe the big smart ones, herd the now dumb ones into an ambush?

Stealers are most ideal in an extreme interior environment - most obviously a Space Hulk - and in a match-up where their great CQC and armor-rending abilities are warranted (terminators.) Even in a built up urban area, wouldn't cheaper gaunts be more cost effective?

I haven't got my copy of the Codex at hand, so I can't say how much cheaper it would be to use gaunts over a stealer, but that said, I believe gaunts require a synapse creature, so for infiltration and general sneaky ambush work, you want something that can operate independently on their own initiative, so stealers, raveners or lictors, as you've said.

Stealers are more useful sent ahead of the main hive fleet though - an unchecked stealer infestation can destroy worlds, whereas a single unsupported ravener or lictor is a minor nuisance at best.

After all doesn't Imperial wisdom say 'Four armed is fore warned'

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt and to notice that your children have 6 limbs.

[Platinius]

Indeed

Also:
rules =/= fluff
gaunts are mainly cheap cannonfodder who live primarily to distract from more important units (they have only the most basic abilities and therefore have by far the least complex construction and least amount rarer minerals in their bodies

1.9 m and 300 kg are about my size and two and a half times my weight, making me quite big and heavy (equipment included), yet my comrades were always surprised how easily and often I snuck up on them or how fast I was in CQC. Don't be fooled by size or weight, there is nothing slow or sluggish about large predators. Genestealers (as well as lictors and raveners) are very smart and will use cover, patience and terror tactics.

Perhaps the biggest advantage 'Nids have is the extremely short production cycle of their troops. If the 'Nids manage to force their enemies into a defensive position (no matter how well defended), the 'Nids get to literally eat the countryside to produce the necessary mass of troops to break any fortress. Time is their biggest ally and their infiltration units also don't need to actually break the enemy army, only stop it from acting and force it to react. And there are only so many catachanian's to go around to counteract these infiltrators.

Ultimately, Tyranids are a disease that has to be nipped in the bud or the only way of stopping the epidemic is burning what's infested, literally. So, they are vincible yet the cost is astronomical and therefore very GRIMDARK, just the way I like it

[LCP]

Also, i kinda think the 40th k verse has a bit more and better bombs than we do

Right... but if you are fighting a 40K style pitched land battle, and somebody sets off enough munitions to exceed the current nuclear stockpile of the whole planet Earth... how many of your guys are left alive? How useful is that planet now?

You've just rediscovered the Kryptmann Doctrine.

Sounds like an arbitrary cut off point to me. If you didn't have the 1.5% of calcium in your composition, you wouldn't have bones, teeth or even functional cells.

Absolutely - was just taking the mick out of myself . One of my tutors at undergrad once said that most of theoretical physics was approximating numbers either to 1 or 0.

If it's biological, then it's ATP. While the energy density of fat is only 38 MJ/kg, compared to jet fuel's 43 MJ/kg, it's a damn sight easier to synthesise a kg of fat than a kg of jet fuel.

I didn't know that fat was that energy-dense. However, I suspect the limiting thrust from muscle contractions is far far lower than from chemical rockets.

I'm not sure why you appear to be so hung up on where the energy comes from

Because you need so much of it to move a multiple-kilometre hive ship around at Imperial cruiser speeds. If the hive ship is running off fat reserves, it needs to be basically a big ball of fat to get from anywhere to anywhere.

Thinking about it a bit more, a lot of Tyranid bio-weapons use pretty advanced electromagnetic doodads, and they've got that whole bio-plasma thing with Carnifexes - it's not inconceivable that they'd have some kind of biological ion thruster. I think I may make that my line from now on. Hive ships swallowing clouds of hydrogen like big baleen whales, and then magic space beetles make the EM fields to shoot it out the back.

[Cikomyr]

I thought I did? Snipe the big smart ones, herd the now dumb ones into an ambush?

That's... using one and then the other.

You should be using one AND the other ;)


Mont'ka is lightning decapitating strikes, Kauyon is playing with your enemy to get them where you want.

Good example, methink, is to try to lure the enemy where a decapitating strike is going to be more effective, or at least more executable.

Alternatively, you could use a series of strike attacks to try to lure the ennemy where you want them. Either as provokation or you guide them along a path of least resistance. Use your mobility to bluff your presence. Mont'ka is a fantastic method to help shape your Kauyon..


Just to tell a little' tale of my Dark Hersey DMing day

Spoiler: Dark Heresy story of Mont'ka and Kauyon

Show

the players were stranded on a planet with a squad of guardsmen, and tried to reach nearby civilization. They spotted a reflect in the distance.. once.. twice.. they realized something was following.

They set up an ambush, readying Heavy Weapon positions... the sniper eventually noticed a shadow moving on the ground that.. was wrong. With a nice Math roll, I let him guess where the thing is projecting the shadow from, and he sniped.

Turns out, it was a hovering Marking Drone. The Sniper immediately rushes down to try to get some sweet Tau loot, and the other players gather around..

And suddenly, three Shadowsuits jump from behind them, throw a few grenades and guns down all the guardsman, destroying the heavy weaponry. The players barely have time to reach cover before the Shadowsuits jump out of range and re-cloak.

The Sniper player went all "bullcrap, why they didn't just kept fighting?" while the "lead" player, who actually knew his 40K in depth, actually shook his head and said what happened is exactly in character for the Tau. They were lured into focusing entirely on a bait, and then a quick strike took out the heavy guns on their team.

It's never one or the other. Real Tau commanders use both sides of the same coin