Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread IX: "Post-human Centipede"

[Cheesegear]

I thought I did? Snipe the big smart ones, herd the now dumb ones into an ambush?

Eldar do both at the battle of Valedor. Lure Tyranids into a box canyon, then use Eldar clipping hax speed, mobility and Skimmer-ness to GTFO, shoot all of the Leader-beasts, then start shooting fish in a barrel while all the 'Gaunts kind of stand around in the box canyon not knowing what to do.

[Lix Lorn]

That's... using one and then the other.

You should be using one AND the other ;)

Mont'ka is lightning decapitating strikes, Kauyon is playing with your enemy to get them where you want.

Good example, methink, is to try to lure the enemy where a decapitating strike is going to be more effective, or at least more executable.

...so... lure enemy to a place where you can use a decapitated strike.
So, Kauyon then Mont'ka.

[Cikomyr]

...so... lure enemy to a place where you can use a decapitated strike.
So, Kauyon then Mont'ka.

Actually, Mont'ka through Kauyon?

[Tehnar]

Real life physics tend not to mix well with most SF settings, especially those that deal with space travel. Not only would tyranids need their ships to be 99.99999% fuel (fat, seriously didn't realize it had such a energy density), it would be a horribly inefficient way of reaching speeds needed to get to anywhere in less then 100 years travel.

Though there is this new engine thingy http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140006052 that supposedly works, which if true ( I am very sceptical), could open a whole another ballpark for Tyranids propulsion to work.

[Cikomyr]

Picked up the first Ciaphas Cain...

Goddamnit it's fun. Cain is a true, great and absolutely fantastic hero to follow. The constant insistance on his own cowardness, impotance, manipulative self-interest and just blind luck is really a nice sugar-coating to what would otherwise be an incredibly annoying mary sue.

The self-depreciative aspect of the book change what could have been one of the most boring character of the WH40K universe into one of its most endearing.

and I have to say; I don't buy it for one second that he's as cowardly or selfish as he presents himself. Just in the first book, on more than one occasion, we are presented with instances where we can prove he lied his ass off to blur and issue and make himself look pitiful/poor lineage. Add in the fact that he basically turned a regiment that was on the brink of civil war into a solid and unified war machine through political machinations? The man is, indeed, a master manipulator.

Why should we then assume that the Master Manipulator is talking about himself at face value? Cain probably seen a reason for writing these self-depreciating memoirs, one that was probably meant to be seen as inspiring. The idea that "just because you are afraid for your life doesn't mean you don't have what it takes to be a hero, 'cause I feared for my life every single day of service" is a powerful one that can inspire many a doubting Guardsman recruit...

[Cheesegear]

Goddamnit it's fun. Cain is a true, great and absolutely fantastic hero to follow.

He's Rincewind, Black Adder, or Flashman. Pick your favourite.

Why should we then assume that the Master Manipulator is talking about himself at face value?

Because he manipulates people for his own personal gain. Did you miss that? The reason he makes others fight for him is so that he doesn't have to - and he says as much. The fact that he survives at all is pure luck, and Deus ex Jurgen (it gets old). His memoirs are "I'm not the hero you think I am.", he's presenting The Man Behind The Myth, as one of the first things he points out is that he's never carried a Bolt Pistol in his life, and two-thirds of pretty much everything he ever does is due to the assistance and/or intervention of Jurgen - but he always gets left out of the stories.

Everything you know is a lie - that's the point of the story.

[hamishspence]

That said, Vail's commentaries on them do suggest reasons for Cain's writing them that aren't to do with inspiration (it's cathartic). Also, only Inquisitors are allowed to read them - because they've been put under inquisitorial seal.

She also thinks he's not giving himself enough credit - and "if courage is the overcoming of fear - he deserves his reputation for it"

[Cheesegear]

That said, Vail's commentaries on them do suggest reasons for Cain's writing them that aren't to do with inspiration (it's cathartic). Also, only Inquisitors are allowed to read them - because they've been put under inquisitorial seal.

The prevailing theory is that Cain is on his deathbed, or at least knowing he's going to die soon, and he has a guilty conscience about taking all the Hero of the Imperium medals that he doesn't actually deserve. The facts are, yes, Cain was there, and [Patriarch/Warboss/Daemoness/Overlord/etc.] did die, so mad props to Cain for that. But, it's like Cain is trying to tell people that no, he didn't do anything he did 'for the good of the Imperium', or even for the men serving under him, everything he did was to save his own arse from getting killed, or, perhaps worse, from people finding out that he's not the Hero that the holos have made him out to be. Which is kind of what he says.

...Which leads us to the second, alternate theory;

Cain has been found out by the Inquisition or the Commissariat - hence the need for Amberley to corroborate that several things he claims actually did happen - and everything that Cain writes is a confession or testimony that he's being forced to write after having been discovered as a big ol' liar for the entire century and a bit that he's been alive. And the reason that it's Inquisition Eyes Only, is the same thing it's always been; Cain is not the Hero that he's made out to be, and public knowledge of that fact would damage the Imperium's morale.

She also thinks he's not giving himself enough credit - and "if courage is the overcoming of fear - he deserves his reputation for it"

Oh, of course. But we are explicitly given Cain's thought processes of the time. More often than not, Cain comes across as a man with his back against a wall - literally, sometimes - if he does nothing, he's dead. So he has to try something 'crazy enough to work' because that's the only option he has available to him. Do or die, as they say.

If he tries something and fails, well then Jurgen saves him - but that's a writing flaw, and an entirely separate topic.

[Brother Oni]

The man is, indeed, a master manipulator.

Did you miss the fact that he's a Commissar and hence a political officer? It's kinda in the job description.

He's Rincewind, Black Adder, or Flashman. Pick your favourite.

He's far more CPT Blackadder than Flashman. Off the top of my head, I can think of only one morally dubious action he's done but given that it was not warning the Tau that their rescued personnel may have been implanted by genestealers, perfectly in keeping with the Imperium practices.

...Which leads us to the second, alternate theory;

I don't think so - Amberly says she's cobbled together the various memoirs into coherent texts regarding a particular campaign from large rambling block of texts which jump around chronologically (I get the feeling that Cain was dictating and much like an old man starts telling one story, only to be reminded of another story then maybe wanders back into his original story or goes off into another one instead).
I think this was an additional excerpt in an omnibus though, so never appeared in the original books.

[Wraith]

...Which leads us to the second, alternate theory;

A third potential theory that I have seen in some circles goes completely Inception on you, CG.

Public Image: Cain is the lantern-jawed pulp hero, kicking xenos ass and supplying ample amounts of bubblegum to the troops under him, who all love him like a father.

Alternate Theory: Cain is a competent, but lazy, and very, very lucky. Everything that has happened to him is one huge coincidence, and it's only incredible fortune that he's gotten out alive, let alone being celebrated for it, and since Cain knows his Public Image his conscience requires him to set the record straight, if only to square it with himself. Hence, his candid memoirs.

Counter-Alernate Theory: In reality Cain knew exactly how he escaped intact from Genestealers and Heretics, and it was by sacrificing the lives of his own men without pause to save his own skin. He was an abject coward and all those men and women in the novels who "did their duty to the Emperor" were pushed into the enemies' line of fire with the sort of readiness that only a real traitor could muster. The memoirs are also a part of the sham, written not as Cain said in the twilight of his years but throughout, not only as a way of remembering the lies that he has told but twisted to present a plausible, but still loyal account for his actions in the form of the Alternate Theory should he ever finally make good on his attempts to desert and have it appear as though he died valiantly in action so that no one would go looking for him.
Unfortunately, he could never manage to shake off that damn equerry who somehow managed to survive and follow him around, and thus thwart his ultimate successes at escape....

Converse-Counter-Alternate Theory: The adventures of Ciaphas Cain, from his heroic duels and his passionate love affairs (ESPECIALLY the love affairs) were indeed collated by Amberly Vail.... a 15 year old Agri-world girl with a talent(?) for fan fiction.

[Cheesegear]

A third potential theory that I have seen in some circles goes completely Inception on you, CG.

Best theory I've heard, hinged on the Inquisition Only line of thinking;
The Eversor Temple is experimenting with a new type of Bodyguard/Assassin that attaches to personages in upper echelons. However, due to the Blank aura - designed to protect the upper echelons from psychic buggery and Chaos Corruption/Possession - the project was considered an abject failure because people in command don't stand for projectile vomiting and pooping themselves whenever somebody with a Blank aura shows up. But, Cain, due to some divine favour - which we all know he has - was able to accept the new Weapon - one Ferik Jurgen - and, unbeknownst to Cain, the Inquisition declared that Cain would be The Weapon's handler - as indicated by the fact that Vail never just takes him away like she should.

Cain's memoirs, are actually thinly disguised field reports of The Weapon's application, dosed liberally with misdirection in order to take focus onto Cain himself, rather than the real subject - The Weapon.

[hamishspence]

I don't think so - Amberly says she's cobbled together the various memoirs into coherent texts regarding a particular campaign from large rambling block of texts which jump around chronologically (I get the feeling that Cain was dictating and much like an old man starts telling one story, only to be reminded of another story then maybe wanders back into his original story or goes off into another one instead).
I think this was an additional excerpt in an omnibus though, so never appeared in the original books.

It's the intro to For The Emperor. We also get a hint from Cain's Last Stand that some bits were compiled quite far apart - since the opening chapter of For the Emperor, written from Cain's point of view, is set before he comes out of retirement.

He's far more CPT Blackadder than Flashman.

His run-in with Tomas Beije in The Traitor's Hand is a bit of a shout-out to Flashman though - Tomas Beije - Thomas Beige - Tom Brown.

[Cikomyr]

Because he manipulates people for his own personal gain. Did you miss that? The reason he makes others fight for him is so that he doesn't have to - and he says as much.

Or he makes other fight because... Its his gorram job. He manipulates them, but thats standard commisaire procedure; he's just fantastically gifted at it.

For someone who, repeatedly, actually demonstrated fantastic manipulative acuity, he sure still finds himself in harm's way often for someone who is allegedly actively avoiding it.

The fact that he survives at all is pure luck, and Deus ex Jurgen (it gets old).

Thats HIS take on it. Its clearly unverifiable, as opposed to other stuff he actually takes credit for or stuff the Inquisitor outright called bull****.

And between you and me, i am not ready to trust a self admitted pathological liar who seems to have a vested interest in diminishing his own heroics.

His memoirs are "I'm not the hero you think I am.", he's presenting The Man Behind The Myth, as one of the first things he points out is that he's never carried a Bolt Pistol in his life, and two-thirds of pretty much everything he ever does is due to the assistance and/or intervention of Jurgen - but he always gets left out of the stories.

While he might not be the fearless and determined hero the imperium makes him out to be, there is still thr possibility he ACTUALLY achieved stuff he was being credit for, and he is somehow/somewhy trying to deny it. Maybe because of guilt, maybe for other reasons.

For all we know, Jurgen is a fictional character in-universe Cain created to lay the glory on. Probably an actual aide he was fond of/dreamed of being a hero, and Cain wanted ro be nice to his memory, posthumously.

Everything you know is a lie - that's the point of the story.

When i am being told that, the first reflex i have i assessing the veracity of the story telling me that. " Everything i know is a lie" is usually a way to make me accept an outrageously fake story without me calling "bullcrap" in the first minutes.

[Cheesegear]

For someone who, repeatedly, actually demonstrated fantastic manipulative acuity, he sure still finds himself in harm's way often for someone who is allegedly actively avoiding it.

Which he regrets, often.

And between you and me, i am not ready to trust a self admitted pathological liar who seems to have a vested interest in diminishing his own heroics.

Then what is the point of the story? The whole point of the story is that this time, he's not lying.

For all we know, Jurgen is a fictional character in-universe Cain created to lay the glory on.

Except for the fact that several other characters interact with Jurgen. Vail confirms his existence, and his role is several events.

Probably an actual aide he was fond of/dreamed of being a hero, and Cain wanted ro be nice to his memory, posthumously.

Unless Cain himself is a Blank with a Meltagun, absolutely not. Since Blanks and 'master manipulators' are polar opposites, Cain can not be a Blank. Unless the entire story is a delusion written by a 15 year-old Agri-World girl with a penchant for fan-fics (thanks Wraith!).

"Everything i know is a lie" is usually a way to make me accept an outrageously fake story without me calling "bullcrap" in the first minutes.

I wasn't referring to you. Cain is referring to the Imperium. Everything they know is a lie, and what we - the audience - are reading, is the truth. And the truth is, from the man himself, pretty bleak and entirely un-heroic. The lie, is that one man went into Genestealer tunnels, brought down an entire GS Cult, and single-handedly fought a Patriarch - and won! Totally on his own, and wasn't scared at all. Because that's what the Imperium thinks actually happened. That's the bullcrap. Because that is not something that should be able to happen. Genestealers are the ones that shred Terminators into ribbons in seconds.

That's the whole point of the story. Cain's unburdening of his own conscience that he's lived a lie for just over a century. What we're reading, is King Arthur, Robin Hood, Hercules. That the truth is much less exciting than fiction.
...Except it's 40K, so the truth is still pretty cool anyway...At least until Book 3. By book 4 we're reading the same story over and over again.

[hamishspence]

Still plenty of new shout-outs, footnotes, snark, and so forth, even if the plot itself rarely changes much.

Jurgen doesn't play much of a role in some of Cain's later victories.

In Death or Glory, for example,

Spoiler

Show

Cain's defeat of Warboss Korbal was recorded - and broadcast a lot.

and in Cain's Last Stand:

Spoiler

Show

Cain defeats Varan in close combat without Jurgen's direct help.

[Cikomyr]

Then what is the point of the story? The whole point of the story is that this time, he's not lying.

Its all fun and good to believe.

Except that, you know, its been proven he lied his ass off on a few occasions in the first book alone. So your theory kind of crumbles.

[Wraith]

Unless the entire story is a delusion written by a 15 year-old Agri-World girl with a penchant for fan-fics (thanks Wraith!).

I must confess, it's not *my* theory. I think I originally saw it proposed by Zorg, or possibly shadow_archmagi. If I can find out, I will provide an adequate reference in due time.

[The Glyphstone]

I've always enjoyed the fan-fiction crack theory myself.


Another I'm fond of is that Amberly isn't just editing/compiling the memoirs, but censoring them regarding Cain's love life. The bits with her, obviously...it's explicitly mentioned at least once that 'the rest of this bit isn't of interest to anyone' - but you also note that every woman Cain encounters after For The Emperor (chronologically) is either evil/traitorous or ugly.

[shadow_archmagi]

I must confess, it's not *my* theory. I think I originally saw it proposed by Zorg, or possibly shadow_archmagi. If I can find out, I will provide an adequate reference in due time.

I haven't read the Cain books, but I'm flattered by the thought.

[Platinius]

Sadly, I don't remember who wrote it, all I remember is that is was probably the best joke ever made in this series of threads (and we made quite a few )

[Cheesegear]

and in Cain's Last Stand:

Spoiler

Show

Cain defeats Varan in close combat without Jurgen's direct help.

Spoiler

Show

Doesn't Varan tell Cain to kill himself? Without Jurgen, that would have happened.

Cain does admit that some things are true - with Amberley's confirmation as well. One of those things, is that Cain actually is a decent swordsman. The only problem with Cain's Last Stand, is that Cain is decidedly un-Cain-like in that story. He is proactive in the things he does, and doesn't spend the whole time trying to stay out of the fight. He knows what Varan is up to, because of previous events on Perlia, and takes steps to prevent that from happening.

CLS is when Cain is in his twilight years. Has he already had his crisis of conscience? Or does he have it immediately afterwards? As I said, CLS is when Cain might actually be the hero that he's made out to be. The biggest problem with CLS is...

Spoiler

Show

Every story from now on is pointless, because Cain - and Jurgen - will never be in any real danger, and therefore all tension is lost, because we know that Cain lives during and after the 13th Black Crusade.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Spoiler

Show

Every story from now on is pointless, because Cain - and Jurgen - will never be in any real danger, and therefore all tension is lost, because we know that Cain lives during and after the 13th Black Crusade.

Spoiler

Show

Now, I've not read any Cain, but here are two responses:

(1) Since all of them are written as memoirs, we already know Cain isn't going to die. Y'know, unless the final chapter of a book turned out to be a very technical report pieced together from nearly-crazy Guardsmen who witnessed and survived what actually took out Cain.

(2) Just because a character cannot die does not mean nothing can happen to them. Probably the best example of this is in The Wheel of Time (by Robert Jordan) where one character learns she is destined to give birth to the babies she is currently pregnant with and thus lives her next 9 months with reckless abandon. And while she doesn't die, many things do happen to her which inflict great pain, suffering and loss -- often as a result of her reckless attitude. Particularly in WH40k, death is hardly the worst thing that can happen to you and/or the ones you love

[Squark]

My biggest gripe with Cain's Last Stand is that several of Amberly's sources date from at least 100.M42, which means the Imperium survives much as it does before the 13th Black Crusade. The thing is, as a "cliff hanger" period, the 13th Black Crusade actually works. It's big, it's climactic, it's apocalyptic. If they have to stop the timeline, the 13th Black Crusade is the place to do it. But Cain's Last Stand makes it clear that no, things just keep on going. And that makes not advancing the storyline, well, infuriating.

[Cheesegear]

Now, I've not read any Cain, but here are two responses:

Spoiler

Show

Just because a character cannot die does not mean nothing can happen to them.

Spoiler

Show

Except it doesn't. Cain is totally fine and well during Varan's invasion. He has his augmetic fingers, but we already knew about them. At no point in CLS are we given new information. Say for example if Cain has a cool facial scar. How did he get that? Is there a story there? Probably. But we don't get any of that. Cain, in CLS, is just as healthy as he ever is with no niggling injuries. The only thing that has ever had lasting psychological effects on Cain, were the Necron Pariahs, but that - again - is something we already know about.

Cain's Last Stand gives us no new information. Cain is fine, and will always be fine. Cain's Last Stand was a perfect opportunity to drop sloughs of information of Cain's story on us. "Did I ever tell you about the time I stared down a Necron Overlord?" But, if you haven't guessed by now; That doesn't happen.

If they have to stop the timeline, the 13th Black Crusade is the place to do it. But Cain's Last Stand makes it clear that no, things just keep on going. And that makes not advancing the storyline, well, infuriating.

The annoying part about that, is that Abaddon did so much damage during the 13th BC, that the 14th will cripple the Imperium. Cadia was broken during during the 13th, and wont be able to recover in time when Abaddon finally rocks out. Slaanesh has partially possessed one of the Blackstone Fortresses, which means Slaanesh may or may not have a physical presence, meaning that She Who Thirsts can potentially roam around the Materium indefinitely. The only apparent defence against said Blackstone Fortress is also that Eldrad's soul is stuck in there, and Mind Warring with Slaanesh herself.

[Cikomyr]

Can i ask a question that just poppee into my head?

Whats the deal with the Kingdom of Ultramar? Is it a sovereign state? A vassal nation of the Imperium? Just one more province with a fancy title?

Do the High Lords of Terra have authority there? What about the Administratum? The Ecclesiarchy? (Do people of Ultramar believe in the GEoM?) The Inquisition? The Arbitres?

Do these worlds pay tithe? To whom?

[Cheesegear]

Whats the deal with the Kingdom of Ultramar?

It's called a Realm, or Region. A King does not rule it, therefore it is not a Kingdom.

Is it a sovereign state?

Yes. Space Marine recruiting worlds are sovereign unto the Chapter that claims them.

Do the High Lords of Terra have authority there?

No. The Ultramarines do.

Do these worlds pay tithe? To whom?

To the Ultramarines.

[Cikomyr]

Thanks for not actually answering.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not sure what other information you want. Space Marine recruiting grounds are vassal states to the chapter, and the Ultramarines simply have a group of planets rather than just on. And since they're ultramarines, these planets are the prettiest and happiest in the entire imperium, and everything is primary coloured and the streets are paved with gold.

We represent, the ultra-mar-ines, the ultra-mar-ines...

[LansXero]

It's called a Realm, or Region. A King does not rule it, therefore it is not a Kingdom.



Yes. Space Marine recruiting worlds are sovereign unto the Chapter that claims them.



No. The Ultramarines do.



To the Ultramarines.

What ever did happen to the 500 worlds though? Are all of them (even if they are radiation wastelands like Calth) sovereign UltraMarine territory?

[Cheesegear]

Thanks for not actually answering.

Q. What's the deal with Ultramar?
A. It's run by the Ultramarines.

Basically, Ultramar is the Ultramarines' 'homeworld'. I'm pretty sure that does answer the question. The only way it doesn't, is if you don't know what rights Space Marines have over their homeworlds, which is an entirely separate question.

Recently, there have been a lot of Chapters that have more than one recruiting world, except those Chapters tend to be crusading de-centralised Chapters. Those 'recruiting worlds' don't count as 'homeworlds' and therefore pay tithes just like everybody else (i.e; Necromunda and Armageddon are both Space Marine 'recruiting worlds' but still pay tithes). Essentially, each and every Space Marine homeworld is a sovereign 'Empire' unto itself. This means, that the High Lords, Inquisition, AdMech, Ecclesiarchy and other Terran-institutions only have as much authority on those worlds as the governing Space Marine Chapter gives them, as Space Marines are governed by the Emperor - and he isn't saying much. The High Lords have no authority on how Chapter Masters run their Chapters, except for when they do (i.e; Minotaurs).

But, Space Marines, being abhumans, are still subject to purification checks. Except, in the cases we hear about, the mutations are an ingrained part of the Chapter's culture (Space Wolves, Black Dragons), and those Chapters typically tell the Inquisition to go choke on something spiney. Then you get problems. But, that's not relevent to Ultramarines, so let's move on.

The only difference between other Chapters and the Ultramarines, is that the Ultramarines own more than one planet. If it helps, Guilliman tried to call his place Imperium Secundus - The Second Empire. But, that didn't stick.