Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread IX: "Post-human Centipede"

[lord_khaine]

Hell.... "Doesn't Hold Up Under Scrutiny" could well be one of the GitP 40k/fluff thread titles.

it certainly got my vote for both of those!

[The Glyphstone]

That's one way to look at it, but how many habitable planets in the Sol System? One, right? Terra. But we know that the Imperium did a whole bunch of terraforming in its early days - hence the colonisation of Mars. But, that's not all; Luna, and both Mars' moons - Deimos and Phobos, known for various tank variants - are all colonised. There are shipyards around Jupiter, nearly all of Saturn's moons are used by the Inquisition for various purposes, and both Neptune and Uranus have been colonised again and again.

'Habitable zone of a star' doesn't mean much when you can terraform and have access to 40K levels of technology.

That's why I allowed for a 2x increase of planets with environmental concerns. Mars is within the Sol habitable zone; it's just not currently habitable, though it would be (and was) terraformable.

Neptune, on the other hand, is 4.5 billion kilometers from the sun - 30 AUs. Even DAoT level terraforming wouldn't be making that a place where you can walk outside and relax on the front porch - that, and planets within a similar orbital range, are still going to be places of sealed environments; habitable because of technology, not because the planet is natively capable of hosting them.

I did make a point of excluding things like asteroid bases, and (small) moons might qualify there too - one Marine can 'govern' a whole gaggle of the things, since their individual populations will be tiny. Granted, it's fairly easy for a 'moon' to exceed the size of an inhabited 'planet', as Star Wars loves teaching us over and over, but that in turn requires an uninhabitable gas giant, so it's fair to swap 'gigantic inhabitable moon' for 'inhabitable planet' on a 1-1 basis without disrupting the arbitrary formula.

TLDR: You seem to still be arguing that the Ultramarines could manage 100 civilized planets. I'm not disagreeing - rather, I'm arguing that they can do that and maintain a large surplus of potential governors, because there are unlikely to be 100 civilized planets available for them to manage due to orbital dynamics.

[LeSwordfish]

Regarding densities, my personal feeling is that a hive world would tend far more towards a super-packed, super low-income tower block or similar than a city. I think the density of, say, a typical New York Apartment block, would only be available to the super-rich.

[Wraith]

On the contrary, the super-rich in Necromunda live in spaces comparable to mansions. Similarly, most of the Underhive is abandoned wasteland, where you can travel for days between inhabited settlements.

So to make up an average of "billions", 3am on Sunday morning in Hive City must be like the 8am commute rush on Monday morning in modern Tokyo.

[Cikomyr]

Another (among many) example that Cain is lying through his teeth regarding his feelings during his adventures. 3/4 of For the Emperor, Cain claims he hasnt lose any sleep over the soldiers he caused the death. 'Cause hes a coward, you see?

This is immediately countered by Vail stating that he actually had plenty of nightmares and woke up from them. So beside the obvious joke "so she slept with him?!" I think we can safely claim Cain is probably not nearly as coward or selfish as he claim to be. The more i think about it, the more i see these memoirs as a way to deal with his occasional moments of cowardice/selfisheness by projecting everyone around him as heroic, brave or at least competent. Sort of a "I didnt felt like a hero, THESE PEOPLE were the true heroes."

[thorgrim29]

I always read Cain as having a boatload of survivor's guilt, probably worsened by Jurgen buying it before he did, plus nearly crippling insecurities. Basically, he's a much more pragmatic and flawed person then in his official biography but still very much a hero, a great strategist and an awesome leader (judging from the fact that Amberly is probably the person who knew the real him best and keeps telling us he's not giving himself enough credit). But, looking back, he feels that others deserved the credit and the survival more then he does (well, except Sulla).

[Cikomyr]

Thats pretty much how i see it. He probably went overboard in talking about his own weaknesses, but he was still a very heroic person for all he achieved.

Maybe he wanted to run away from the Nids attacking. Or we went ahead to stop their flanking manoeuver. Or a little bit of both...

[13_CBS]

So, over on the delightful world of /tg/, the long-running gag of the Chapter Master game is no longer a joke--some guy actually went and made an Alpha for the darn thing.

However, it's a bit wonky. Battling an Inquisition fleet, for example, tends to make the game crash, as do various other actions. At other times, you get things like this:

Spoiler

Show

What was the Techpriest smoking when he made this abomination honorable device made in the image of the Machine God?

[Forrestfire]

Good lord, it's like something a Final Fantasy character would use.

[Brother Oni]

You guys don't recognise the reference or am I just showing my age again?

[Forrestfire]

I feel like if it wasn't a sword I'd have recognized it. But it's a relic blade, a large, two-handed sword. Not a gun.

[Brother Oni]

I feel like if it wasn't a sword I'd have recognized it. But it's a relic blade, a large, two-handed sword. Not a gun.

Ah, I didn't realise 'Relic Blade' implied an actual blade. Sounds like a flamethrower tagged onto a gunblade then.

[Volthawk]

So, over on the delightful world of /tg/, the long-running gag of the Chapter Master game is no longer a joke--some guy actually went and made an Alpha for the darn thing.

However, it's a bit wonky. Battling an Inquisition fleet, for example, tends to make the game crash, as do various other actions. At other times, you get things like this:

Spoiler

Show

What was the Techpriest smoking when he made this abomination honorable device made in the image of the Machine God?

"It bears the taint of Chaos". Clearly this was some heretek's pet project.

And yeah, it's really crashy at the moment. Alpha is alpha, afterall.

[The Glyphstone]

I thought it was a Dwarf Fortress reference, with the style of the description.

[shadow_archmagi]

You guys don't recognise the reference or am I just showing my age again?

It's those two things built into a SWORD, though.

[Squark]

Amusing fluff gaff- The new Space Wolves codex claims the wolves have 8 Battle Barges and about 30 Strike Cruisers. For a chapter that, by current estimates based on new numbers, is about 1800-2200 strong around the 13th Black Crusade, this is, well, absurd- For comparison, the Ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers.

[13_CBS]

Amusing fluff gaff- The new Space Wolves codex claims the wolves have 8 Battle Barges and about 30 Strike Cruisers. For a chapter that, by current estimates based on new numbers, is about 1800-2200 strong around the 13th Black Crusade, this is, well, absurd- For comparison, the Ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers.

To be fair, don't the Space Wolves have an unusually large fleet as well? I don't recall the exact number, but I remember the Wolves having a sufficiently large fleet that the Inquisition fleet in Emperor's Gift (some Grey Knights ships + the entirety of the Red Hunters Chapter fleet) was balking at the size of it.

[Cikomyr]

Amusing fluff gaff- The new Space Wolves codex claims the wolves have 8 Battle Barges and about 30 Strike Cruisers. For a chapter that, by current estimates based on new numbers, is about 1800-2200 strong around the 13th Black Crusade, this is, well, absurd- For comparison, the Ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers.

Are you sure on your 1800-2200? I always thought something like 3000.

about 3x a regular chapter, so thrice the fleet would make sense..

[Squark]

Ragnar's company is still second biggest, and we know it has 188 marines (presumably the Wolves have had a bad few centuries). The new codex lists the exact makeup of his company.

Estimate 11 companies averaging 160 comes to 1760. Add Logan's basic company (Let's say 250) and another 250 priests and dreadnoughts and you get about 2300. Finally add 250 marines running vehicles, and you get about, say 2500-2600. So the estimate was a tad low, but the Wolves aren't at 3k at least at present time.

[Platinius]

A main difference between SW and other Chapters is that they immediately turn their initiates into full marines, swelling the number of (full) marines drastically. It still means that they are rich in recruits and/or their marines get very old/survive a lot which in turn is a sign of good equipment and logistics, quality training and sensible leadership. Good times for the SW and their (more direct) allies.

The Black Templars have ten thousand marines total without counting the initiates. Draw your own conclusions



To something different (and something about I wanted to post earlier, but missed the widow of opportunity)

After having thought about the Chapters and their styles, I came to an at least to me interesting conclusion, when in battle they have different preferable, but when it comes down to it, most Chapters have basically the same equipment and very similar tactics (a boltgun is still a boltgun and a powersword is still a powersword)
The real differences between the Chapter come not while on duty, but while off duty (as much as Space Marines can be off duty, because everything they do off duty ultimately helps them on the job, I think you can see what I am going for).
By spending so much time with the simple people, the Salamanders acquire a lot of skills when dealing with normal people in the field. Quickly repairing a damaged tank or talking to traumatized witnesses for valuable information or building up moral in demoralized troops are very useful skills, your average guardsmen feel much safer around them and will perform much better (or at all) and your average Salamander is capable of doing that.
Space Wolves do a lot of monster hunting and have superiour hunting/stalking/tracking skills, but also survival related skills because of this time invested hunting mighty beasts in their homeworld. The advantages here are obvious, therefore I will not specifically mention them.
The Ultra Marines (an it is from them i got the initial thought) spend a lot of time actively ruling and micro managing (relatively speaking) the population if their planets. That gives them functional negotiation and management skills, vital for working inside a large empire with different battle ready allies/factions of said empire that you can't "simply" order around. They need to make deals and counter intrigue against them, and that is usually easier when you have wormed yourself into a leadership position where you CAN order them around. Given how diplomacy in the Imperium works, you can see why they are the way they are . It is also actually fits into the whole Roman theme that underlies the Ultra Marines, since their military leaders also thought and fought very politically. (And now their behaviour makes even more sense )

To illustrate I wanted to write a little scenario with different solutions about how a marine of each Chapter would solve the problem differently, but I will jsut write the scenario and leave the solutions to you, ok? Here it comes

It's an unnamed earth-like planet in an area where lots of forests and plains intersect, it is Fall and the nights get -20°C, though the days have agreeable 5°C. A company of guardsmen has been cut off from it's regiment for a few weeks and is simply not rated a high enough priority to send reinforcements needed more desperately elsewhere. They can radio for help but all their colonel can say is "I am sorry, but I can't help you" (the colonel however has contact with his superiour and through him the rest of the campaign fleet, it's just that nobody is willing to help). They are beset by a band of orks lead by a unusually smart and aggressive nob. One of their three Leman Russ tanks has been destroyed and another damaged. The rations start to run low, a quarter of the guardsmen are injured and another quarter dead, save for a simple low-ranking soldier who is the sole survivor of a section send out to find the camp of the orks. They found it and he abrely made it back alive and is in shell-shock. There are also a few locals who know the region with them, but they are not combat ready. That is the moment where a regular non-veteran Space Marine of undefined Chapter arrives, who was also in the region for unknown reasons and is willing to help them for 24 hours and can push it up to 48 hours, but then he really has to go.
And now comes the actual question, what does the SM do depending on what Chapter he is from?

[Cheesegear]

That is the moment where a regular non-veteran Space Marine of undefined Chapter arrives, who was also in the region for unknown reasons and is willing to help them for 24 hours and can push it up to 48 hours, but then he really has to go.
And now comes the actual question, what does the SM do depending on what Chapter he is from?

You've put a lot of emotion behind how beleaguered the Guardsmen are. But that doesn't matter. Because most Space Marines are more pragmatic than nice. None of that matters. The Space Marine moves onto his real mission. Maybe, when he catches up to where he needs to be, he might send back help. But unless 'regular non-Veteran man' has a squad or two of Marines with him that he can order about and a Strike Cruiser that shoots Orbitals - thus belying his regular, non-Veteran state - nothing he do can help those Guardsmen, they're dead. As he said, the Marine has duties elsewhere, we'll send back help if possible. Try not to die.

If the Marine has resources to bear, the solution is simple; Kill the Xenos for as long as possible, try not to get stuck in so we can leave.
To kill or not to kill Xenos is not a question a Marine is really allowed to ask.

Here's a better question;
Planet Zyzz is having a civil war. Half the planet want to keep the Planetary Governor around - he's legit, after all - and half the planet want to execute him - he's mean, after all.
Space Marines are found cruising in-system, and they'll help!
How does a Space Marine Pacify a human-settled planet, depending on the Chapter he's from?

[Squark]

I'm just going off the first Ultramarines novel, but I think at least if the marines were requested, they're usually given an attaché from the administratum if the marine will take one. If the marines just happened upon the planet while patrolling/going where the psyker's divinations say to, though, then it's pretty open ended. Some chapters would just call for the guard, squash the combatants on both sides, and leave the imperium to reestablish order when the worst of the fighting is done.

[Cikomyr]

Maybe not squash the combattans, but certainly proceed with effective decapitation strikes and neutralize their logistics network.

[bluntpencil]

Civil wars seem common enough in the Imperium. If one side was Chaotic or secessionist or whatever, the Marines would help the other side. If not, just let them fight. Certain Chapters would recruit the best fighters from both sides.

[Cheesegear]

Maybe not squash the combattans, but certainly proceed with effective decapitation strikes and neutralize their logistics network.

I realised this as soon as I posted the question;
When it comes to duties and what an individual Marine will or will not do, most Chapters are generally the same. That's why there can be a thousand Chapters and they're still all relatively the same. Because indoctrinations are pretty much universal. Chapters' universial duties are pretty much the same - protect the Imperium, from within and without.

The only issues are extreme cases;
The Iron Hands put a third of a planet's good guys to the sword, because that's the price of ignorance. If you let stuff happen on your planet, and we have to clean it up, there's a problem on your planet - and we're not talking about the Cult that sprang up.
The Black Dragons kill everyone. It's the only way to be sure, after all.

But that's all human-on-human violence. Human vs. Xenos isn't even a real debate if you're talking about what a Marine will do.

[Grim Portent]

The Black Dragons kill everyone. It's the only way to be sure, after all.

More like they try to kill only the guys they decide are bad, have a moral crisis while defining 'bad' and butcher enough people that come close enough to their eventual definition that everyone else falls to their knees in fear and frenzied piety.

[Cikomyr]

I realised this as soon as I posted the question;
When it comes to duties and what an individual Marine will or will not do, most Chapters are generally the same. That's why there can be a thousand Chapters and they're still all relatively the same. Because indoctrinations are pretty much universal. Chapters' universial duties are pretty much the same - protect the Imperium, from within and without.

The only issues are extreme cases;
The Iron Hands put a third of a planet's good guys to the sword, because that's the price of ignorance. If you let stuff happen on your planet, and we have to clean it up, there's a problem on your planet - and we're not talking about the Cult that sprang up.
The Black Dragons kill everyone. It's the only way to be sure, after all.

But that's all human-on-human violence. Human vs. Xenos isn't even a real debate if you're talking about what a Marine will do.

Okay. I really, raelly don't think they put a third of a planet's population's through the sword.

I mean, orbital bombardment? sure. Through the same means, having the Space Marines exterminate an entire world 'cause they feel like it/think it's necessary? Why not.

But actually going in and killing everyone? yhea.. no. For some reason, I have some doubts that even a hundred super-engineered soldiers can execute millions of peoples living on an entire world. Except, off course, if they decided to go at it for the next 10 years.

[13_CBS]

Okay. I really, raelly don't think they put a third of a planet's population's through the sword.

Perhaps Cheesegear was being figurative rather than literal?

[Cikomyr]

Perhaps Cheesegear was being figurative rather than literal?

More than likely, but I am never sure with the occasional SPESH MARINZ KILL ALL fanboy (note: I really don't think Cheesegear is one, I was just giving an example). I mean.. it's always been puzzling to me how a few dozen soldiers, as super as they might be, can apparently fight an entire planetary war by themselves. It's ignoring anything we know about "scale".

I can see the Space Marines as the ultimate, uber-efficient, perfect "Scalpel" tool of warfare. Meant for the most supreme of strikes that will debilitate, neutralize and disrupt. But I just don't see how they can conquer a planet by themselves. The IG or the local PDF still needs to do all of the mop-up.

[Cheesegear]

Okay. I really, raelly don't think they put a third of a planet's population's through the sword.

I mean, orbital bombardment? sure.

I meant figuritively. No, they didn't go around beheading one third of the population. But the Iron Hands did kill off one third of the loyal population as punishment for letting bad things happen to their planet.

However, Konrad Curze is known for saying that the best way to Pacify a planet is to randomly kill one in ten people. If any civilians complain or fight back, make it one in five. But, Curze was pretty evil.