Building The Thogue

[Red Fel]

Recently, I was reading yet another thread about Rogues behaving badly. (You know, pilfering loot from under the other PCs' noses - or worse, from their pockets - and claiming "It's what my character would do.") And I thought, "How can we subvert this pattern, hideously?"

And then I remembered the Thogaturge. And that tired little hamster began to run on his wheel again. (In case you couldn't tell, the title is a portmanteau of Thog and Rogue.)

The concept is simplicity itself. I want your help to design a thief who is, without question, the absolute worst thief imaginable. As many penalties as you can stack on Hide, Disguise, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand. Penalties to Diplomacy and Disable Device too, if you want. You know, all the stuff that makes a thief a thief. Add on that a whopping penalty to Int, because this guy's gonna be dumber than dirt.

But here's the kicker. The goal is to make him scary. Seriously frightening. So pants-crappingly terrifying that sentient beings would rather pretend that he is successfully picking their pockets undetected than risk enraging him by revealing his incompetence. (Bonuses to Intimidate are just the beginning. I think we can do a lot more than that.)

He doesn't have to be mean. Or evil. But if you could picture a nine-foot demon, massive horns and a flaming aura, who makes the land shake as he walks, tip-toeing noisily behind a person while loudly exhaling sulfur fumes, stage-whispering, "I AM SNEAKY AND WILL PICK THIS POCKET UNDETECTED," you're getting the general idea.

The rules are the usual. Sources are 3.0/3.5 or PF, but no mixing, and no 3rd party (DSP is okay for PF); any alignment, any race, any template, any LA, minimal cheese.

This build is designed to be absurd and hysterical, so I expect to see some serious funny up in here.

Pencils up, and... Move silently!

[Weirdbob95]

I'd reccomend making Thog as big as possible. It hurts his Hide, buffs Intimidate, and probably lowers his dexterity. Paying a wizard to cast Permanency and Enlarge Person on you is just 2960 gp. Besides that, play a goliath and take the substitution levels to grow large when you rage. Add the Half-Minotaur template for even more size, less dex, and more strength.

A raging half-minotaur goliath barbarian with enlarge person is Gargantuan size, has something like -8 to Dex, and +A WHOLE LOT to Str.

[Red Fel]

I'd reccomend making Thog as big as possible. It hurts his Hide, buffs Intimidate, and probably lowers his dexterity. Paying a wizard to cast Permanency and Enlarge Person on you is just 2960 gp. Besides that, play a goliath and take the substitution levels to grow large when you rage. Add the Half-Minotaur template for even more size, less dex, and more strength.

A raging half-minotaur goliath barbarian with enlarge person is Gargantuan size, has something like -8 to Dex, and +A WHOLE LOT to Str.

I like where you're going so far. Bigger is definitely better. But can we do more? For example, a Dread Witch 5 generates an aura of concentrated fear over everything within 10 feet; a Winter Unseelie Fey generates an air of uneasiness imposing morale penalties within 5 feet. Can we make this thing passively terrifying?

And let's stack templates, why not? Goliath is a fine start, that gives us Powerful Build, and Large when raging, but can we do more? Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre, perhaps?

And let's not forget the penalties. It's not enough that the character simply lacks skill points in the areas that define a thief - he has to actually have serious penalties, coupled with the stupidity to overlook them.

[Zombulian]

Goliath Sub levels are actually kind of unfortunate in the way that they don't actually increase your size category. Your Mountain Rage specifically makes you Large.

Also I think feats like Snatch Trophy, Bloodsoaked Intimidate, Intimidating Strike, and Imperious Command could all find places within this build. Snatch Trophy doesn't even require stealing a body part. You could have stepped on them, and then taken the necklace that you were trying to pick pocket off of them.

[SparowCrow]

willing deformity and willing deformity(tall) would give a intimidate bonus and a penalty to hide along with reach

[Weirdbob95]

About the Goliath sub levels only increasing your size to Large, I'd go by logic and RAI and say they just increase your size by one, as the RAW is just silly. (I get smaller when I rage? WHY??)

A Dragonborn Wild Half-Minotaur Goliath with permanency + enlarge person has:

• Huge Size
• +20 Str
• -8 Dex
• +10 Con
• -4 Int
• +0 Wis
• -2 Cha
• +4 NA
• 45 Land Speed
• 2 LA

With a level of barbarian and in a rage, it improves to:

• Gargantuan Size
• +26 Str
• -8 Dex
• +14 Con
• -4 Int
• +0 Wis
• -2 Cha
• +4 NA
• 55 Land Speed
• 2 LA

EDIT:
If you're using point buy to determine attributes, start with 9 Dex and 7 Int to end up with 1 Dex and 3 Int, the minimum you can have on a PC. If you put an 18 into Str, you have 44 Str at ECL 3, a pretty respectable amount.

[Zombulian]

About the Goliath sub levels only increasing your size to Large, I'd go by logic and RAI and say they just increase your size by one, as the RAW is just silly. (I get smaller when I rage? WHY??)

A Dragonborn Wild Half-Minotaur Goliath with permanency + enlarge person has:

• Huge Size
• +20 Str
• -8 Dex
• +10 Con
• -4 Int
• +0 Wis
• -2 Cha
• +4 NA
• 45 Land Speed
• 2 LA

With a level of barbarian and in a rage, it improves to:

• Gargantuan Size
• +26 Str
• -8 Dex
• +14 Con
• -4 Int
• +0 Wis
• -2 Cha
• +4 NA
• 55 Land Speed
• 2 LA

EDIT:
If you're using point buy to determine attributes, start with 9 Dex and 7 Int to end up with 1 Dex and 3 Int, the minimum you can have on a PC. If you put an 18 into Str, you have 44 Str at ECL 3, a pretty respectable amount.

I don't think you can point buy below 8, but otherwise that's pretty funny.

[Starchild7309]

Not quite as optimized, but possibly a Half Iron Golem Goliath with permanent Enlarge person.

Str +18
Dex -6
Con +6
Int -6
Cha -6

While the minus to Cha hurts intimidate I love the idea of this large half golem sneaking along to try to lift items off people. Plus he has the iron golems magic immunity and +11 to Natural armor, breath weapon, and 25/+2 DR. If he is just stealing from regular folk he is untouchable should they take offense.

Oh and all this before adding any class levels. I am assuming the +1 LA from goliath and the consensus I seem to find is the half golem is paid off with gold instead of LA.

[dextercorvia]

How about Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Half-Ogre Half-Minotaur Lesser Aasimar for Race. He is Large, Scary, Dumb and not particularly quick, but has a decent Cha for intimidation.

I think that Intimidating Rage on a Dragon Totem Barbarian is a good start for classes. Thayan Slaver deals Wis damage any time it succeeds on an Intimidate check, so that will make them more likely to give you money the more you scare them.

[Curmudgeon]

About the Goliath sub levels only increasing your size to Large, I'd go by logic and RAI and say they just increase your size by one, as the RAW is just silly.

No, that's not silly. It means if you're normally Small (or smaller) in size, when you rage you automatically jump as many sizes as necessary to become Large. Your "RAI" change would cripple all the small raging Barbarian builds designed specifically around this feature.

[Zombulian]

No, that's not silly. It means if you're normally Small (or smaller) in size, when you rage you automatically jump as many sizes as necessary to become Large. Your "RAI" change would cripple all the small raging Barbarian builds designed specifically around this feature.

Hehe. Jermlaine with Stoneblessed is mah fav.

[inertia709]

In Pathfinder, nothing is scarier than DSP's Dread. You get an aura of fear, removing immunity to fear and imposing a -4 penalty on saves against fear effects - of which you have plenty. The class's manifesting and special abilities are charisma-based, meaning you can dump intelligence and max out that intimidate check. You can take expanded knowledge(expansion) to get up to huge size by level 7 w/o manifester-level boosting (gargantuan if you play a half-ogre), and take a -4 penalty to dexterity to boot. Intimidating prowess allows you to add strength to intimidate checks (and strength goes well with the dread anyway if you invest in a conductive weapon for channelling terrors). You can even take level in armoured hulk barbarian for more strength and so that you can wear heavy armour for the armour check penalty without totally gimping your character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've seen it at least twice now, so I'll make it stand out: Enlarge Person only works on creature type: humanoid! You can't cast it on a goliath (monstrous humanoid) or a half-minotaur or anything that doesn't have humanoid for its creature type.


I'd say make a Wild, Anthropomorphic Rhinoceros, Half-Minotaur, Half-Goristro (+8 Con and no Cha bonus), Mineral Warrior. I'm not including Half-Golem because the 3.5 update booklet puts them at LA —, so it's not suitable for a PC.

Looks like a 30 ft. tall Rocksteady with horns like the villain in Legend, gigantic powerful fists, and gravel embedded into his skin from head to toe, and clops around on hooves.
Huge Outsider (Earth)
Str +40, Dex -6, Con +28, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -8
32-pointbuy: Str 58, Dex 2, Con 46, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 1
Significant natural armor boost, spell-like abilities, two slam attacks which each add 1.5 Str to damage, DR 8/Adamantine and X/Cold Iron (a weapon has to be both to overcome it, good luck!), +22 natural armor, resistances/immunities, etc.
He has two racial HD which get 8 base skill points thanks to Half-Fiend, but none of the Rogue class skills. He also has a +8 LA which further hinders his max skill ranks. He's definitely not someone that a typical NPC would want to start an quarrel with.

[Curmudgeon]

I've seen it at least twice now, so I'll make it stand out: Enlarge Person only works on creature type: humanoid! You can't cast it on a goliath (monstrous humanoid) or a half-minotaur or anything that doesn't have humanoid for its creature type.

I think that was the whole point of adding the Dragonborn "template" (it's actually called something else, but it works like an acquired template); the result is a Humanoid (dragonblood), yet you still count as a member of your original race.

[TiaC]

How about a Shrieker with a template that gives it intelligence? No dex, no move, and loud.

[Red Fel]

Wowzers, when I say go big, y'all don't disappoint! Let's get into it. And for sake of discussion, I'm just going to ignore LAs, because, pfft, LAs, am I right?

Also I think feats like Snatch Trophy, Bloodsoaked Intimidate, Intimidating Strike, and Imperious Command could all find places within this build. Snatch Trophy doesn't even require stealing a body part. You could have stepped on them, and then taken the necklace that you were trying to pick pocket off of them.

That's a good point about Snatch Trophy/Bloodsoaked Intimidate, even if the RAI makes no sense. (Really, I scared them by knocking a guy down and taking his wallet?) But yeah, it's an easy (and amusing) way to be a pickpocket and be scary.

And Intimidating Strike and Imperious Command are both awesome choices. Combine them with Never Outnumbered and, basically, whenever you hit someone or loot someone, you can attempt to demoralize everyone in the area. Do like!

willing deformity and willing deformity(tall) would give a intimidate bonus and a penalty to hide along with reach

Well, bonus to Intimidate is awesome, do likey. Evil prereq is a nuisance, but whatever. And the lanky-and-tall Slenderman look is definitely creepy. Plus, note that Deformity (Tall) adds reach, but penalizes AC and Hide. So, go team!

About the Goliath sub levels only increasing your size to Large, I'd go by logic and RAI and say they just increase your size by one, as the RAW is just silly. (I get smaller when I rage? WHY??)

Much as I like that adaptation, it's not RAW.

Also, as Biff mentions, a Goliath is a monstrous humanoid, and the mechanics of rebirth say a Dragonborn keeps his former type. So Enlarge Person won't work here.

I don't see what the Wild template adds, but a Dragonborn Half-Minotaur Goliath would be a Large creature with Powerful Build and a bunch of stat bonuses (and penalties). Which is certainly a good place to start. And as a bonus, you could always add Half-Ogre for +0 LA (since no size change is involved).

Not quite as optimized, but possibly a Half Iron Golem Goliath with permanent Enlarge person.

Again, it's either a monstrous humanoid or a construct, neither of which is eligible for Enlarge Person.

I am assuming the +1 LA from goliath and the consensus I seem to find is the half golem is paid off with gold instead of LA.

I don't even know what that means. Buy off LA with gold? Never heard of it.

How about Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Half-Ogre Half-Minotaur Lesser Aasimar for Race. He is Large, Scary, Dumb and not particularly quick, but has a decent Cha for intimidation.

I think that Intimidating Rage on a Dragon Totem Barbarian is a good start for classes. Thayan Slaver deals Wis damage any time it succeeds on an Intimidate check, so that will make them more likely to give you money the more you scare them.

Okay, now we've got a big stack of templates, let's go through them in order.

We start with our Lesser Aasimar, a Humanoid (Planetouched). We can throw on Magic blooded anywhere we like, easy. Love the Wis penalty to start. Half-Ogre and Half-Mino have to come next, because Unseelie Fey makes him ineligible for the others. By the end of this, he's Large, strong, stupid, creepy, and highly magical. Love it.

Dragon Totem Barbarian. Frightful Presence at 5th level. Delicious. But at that point, Intimidating Rage is a bit redundant, isn't it? Do love the ability.

And Thayan Slaver! Let's embrace the pretense! Thayan Slaver requires having a source of Sneak Attack damage, so either you work your way around to getting Assassin's Stance, or you take a few levels of... wait for it... Rogue!

I love this, because for awhile I thought, "Why even take Rogue in this build? Take anything but Rogue, and pretend to Rogue, but badly!" And now you bring me a character who has taken levels of Rogue, and still can't Rogue, and it works! Well spotted!

In Pathfinder, nothing is scarier than DSP's Dread. You get an aura of fear, removing immunity to fear and imposing a -4 penalty on saves against fear effects - of which you have plenty. The class's manifesting and special abilities are charisma-based, meaning you can dump intelligence and max out that intimidate check. You can take expanded knowledge(expansion) to get up to huge size by level 7 w/o manifester-level boosting (gargantuan if you play a half-ogre), and take a -4 penalty to dexterity to boot. Intimidating prowess allows you to add strength to intimidate checks (and strength goes well with the dread anyway if you invest in a conductive weapon for channelling terrors). You can even take level in armoured hulk barbarian for more strength and so that you can wear heavy armour for the armour check penalty without totally gimping your character.

Hello, Pathfinder, I missed you!

Okay, so the Dread is a class based almost entirely around fear, with a Cha focus. Love it so far. You can get really big with psionics, bonus. I like it.

I'd say make a Wild, Anthropomorphic Rhinoceros, Half-Minotaur, Half-Goristro (+8 Con and no Cha bonus), Mineral Warrior. I'm not including Half-Golem because the 3.5 update booklet puts them at LA —, so it's not suitable for a PC.

Hey, Biff, I knew you'd show up. Fear builds, am I right?

Okay. So we take big Rhino, make it bigger with Half Mino, make it Half-Goristro to make it freaking scary, then throw on Mineral Warrior to make it out of freaking rocks. Love it so far. It's a huge, smashy tank, utterly devoid of skills, but scary as all get-go. Most excellent!

How about a Shrieker with a template that gives it intelligence? No dex, no move, and loud.

An immobile noisy plant-thing is definitely a rubbish Rogue.

[Segev]

Not D&D (unless you adapt OA), but I have wanted to, as a joke, have the Emperor of Rokugan dress up in black pajamas and walk around with a back-banner that declares, "It is dishonorable to notice me!"

He's the Imperial Ninja.

[Gabrosin]

My main question is, what makes this guy a thief? Most of your description so far just makes him a good old-fashioned ruffian: big, strong, intimidating, such that he takes what he wants when he wants it. That only sort of makes him a thief, and not a very funny one.

I don't have time to stat out the idea, but I'm thinking a rogue/wizard mix that PrC's into Oozemaster and gains Major Oozy Touch (Black Pudding). 2d6+PrC level acid damage to flesh, metal, wood, or stone. The character attempts a Sleight of Hand check to pick your pocket and gets caught. The victim turns, sees the Oozemaster standing there, hands liberally coated with black acid, the victim's money slowly melting into a nondescript puddle. "HEY! You... ummm... oh. You know what, you... you just keep that." *glances down at pants pocket, which now has a huge hole dissolved into it* "I have to go change."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think that was the whole point of adding the Dragonborn "template" (it's actually called something else, but it works like an acquired template); the result is a Humanoid (dragonblood), yet you still count as a member of your original race.

From the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar, Races of the Dragon page 10:
"Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race."

Dragonborn does not switch you to Humanoid. Furthermore, per Savage Species p142-143, The Type Pyramid, humanoid is at the bottom of the pyramid, so if their type is changed to any other creature type by a template then no amount of templates can change them back to humanoid.

[Red Fel]

Not D&D (unless you adapt OA), but I have wanted to, as a joke, have the Emperor of Rokugan dress up in black pajamas and walk around with a back-banner that declares, "It is dishonorable to notice me!"

He's the Imperial Ninja.

... Completely awesome. Good angle; privileged wealthy wannabe being indulged by the populace is almost as good as terrifying monstrosity being feared by his prey. I can dig it.

My main question is, what makes this guy a thief? Most of your description so far just makes him a good old-fashioned ruffian: big, strong, intimidating, such that he takes what he wants when he wants it. That only sort of makes him a thief, and not a very funny one.

Basically, he thinks he's a thief. He thinks he's sneaky, he thinks he's picking pockets undetected, he thinks he's opening doors unnoticed and moving around noiselessly. In reality, he's loud, destructive, and awkward, but people are so terrified of him that they let him maintain his delusions in hopes that he won't hurt them.

I don't have time to stat out the idea, but I'm thinking a rogue/wizard mix that PrC's into Oozemaster and gains Major Oozy Touch (Black Pudding). 2d6+PrC level acid damage to flesh, metal, wood, or stone. The character attempts a Sleight of Hand check to pick your pocket and gets caught. The victim turns, sees the Oozemaster standing there, hands liberally coated with black acid, the victim's money slowly melting into a nondescript puddle. "HEY! You... ummm... oh. You know what, you... you just keep that." *glances down at pants pocket, which now has a huge hole dissolved into it* "I have to go change."

That's an interesting idea. It's not quite "If I pretend not to see it it won't eat my head," but more "If I pretend not to see it it won't melt my face," which is a slightly more specific fear.

My one concern is that this character has to be thick-witted enough to believe he's a sneaky-sneak, and that tends to clash with an Int-based class like Wizard.

[Troacctid]

Sleight of hand is trained-only, so really, he shouldn't be making checks at all. He should be using the ol' "Barbarian's Pickpocket": disarm attacks.

Also, he picks locks by using an adamantine lockpick as an improvised weapon to smash the lock.

[Zombulian]

Is it possible to trigger Snatch Trophy off of non-lethal damage? I really like the idea of a raging berserker running into a room and yelling "GO TO SLEEP TINY MAN! JUST GO TO SLEEP!" as he thwacks them unconcious with his sap, then takes their wallet. Leaving the rest of the room terrified.

[Red Fel]

Sleight of hand is trained-only, so really, he shouldn't be making checks at all. He should be using the ol' "Barbarian's Pickpocket": disarm attacks.

Also, he picks locks by using an adamantine lockpick as an improvised weapon to smash the lock.

Thog holds up a small box that's been pulverized into wood pulp. "Thog pick lock," he says proudly.

I like it.

Is it possible to trigger Snatch Trophy off of non-lethal damage? I really like the idea of a raging berserker running into a room and yelling "GO TO SLEEP TINY MAN! JUST GO TO SLEEP!" as he thwacks them unconcious with his sap, then takes their wallet. Leaving the rest of the room terrified.

Snatch Trophy must be triggered against an enemy at negative HP, but only carving off a body part requires a slashing or piercing weapon and deals damage. Grabbing loot deals no damage and has no weapon requirement. As long as you've dropped the target into the negatives, Snatch Trophy triggers. And as long as Snatch Trophy triggers, Bloodsoaked Intimidate triggers.

So, in theory, if you could drop a target into negative HP by using non-lethal damage, it's totally legit.

[Curmudgeon]

From the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar, Races of the Dragon page 10:
...
Dragonborn does not switch you to Humanoid.

I'm afraid the sidebar is incorrect here. From page 8 of Races of the Dragon:

DRAGONBORN RACIAL TRAITS

• Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

Spoiler: Primary Sources Errata Rule

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Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

The DRAGONBORN RACIAL TRAITS section takes precedence over a sidebar.

Furthermore, per Savage Species p142-143, The Type Pyramid, humanoid is at the bottom of the pyramid, so if their type is changed to any other creature type by a template then no amount of templates can change them back to humanoid.

This pre-3.5 rule is defunct in D&D 3.5. Per the Primary Sources Errata Rule, the Monster Manual is the primary source for how templates work, and the MM says that if a template changes the type, the type changes. The Savage Species rule disagrees with the Monster Manual, and the MM is always correct in such disagreements.

Edit: (one additional point) While the Dragonborn Rite of Rebirth functions like an applied template, that word is never used for the transformation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm afraid the sidebar is incorrect here. From page 8 of Races of the Dragon:
The DRAGONBORN RACIAL TRAITS section takes precedence over a sidebar.

This pre-3.5 rule is defunct in D&D 3.5. Per the Primary Sources Errata Rule, the Monster Manual is the primary source for how templates work, and the MM says that if a template changes the type, the type changes. The Savage Species rule disagrees with the Monster Manual, and the MM is always correct in such disagreements.

Then in that case, "You retain your original type" + "Dragonborn are humanoids" = only humanoids can become dragonborn. It does not say Dragonborn causes you to become humanoid. Since it does not change your creature type and since all Dragonborn are humanoids, "Dragonborn are humanoids" means only humanoids can gain this template.

[Curmudgeon]

Then in that case, "You retain your original type" + "Dragonborn are humanoids" = only humanoids can become dragonborn. It does not say Dragonborn causes you to become humanoid. Since it does not change your creature type and since all Dragonborn are humanoids, "Dragonborn are humanoids" means only humanoids can gain this template.

Or the other possibility: one of those two statements is incorrect. (Also it's still not a template; it's a transformation.) But your type restriction is in conflict with the prerequisites (also page 8):

Prerequisites: In order to be accepted as a suitable candidate, the supplicant must be non-evil and have an Intelligence score of at least 3.

Alignment restriction, INT restriction, but no type restriction.

[Red Fel]

I'll agree with both of you that the RAW is wonky. But let's look at the possibilities:

1. No type requirement. Sidebar rules. Retain your original type, gain Dragonblood subtype.
2. No type requirement. Text rules. Become Humanoid (Dragonblood, X).
3. Dragonborn is humanoid. Template does not change type. If X + Delta = Humanoid, and Delta = 0, then X = Humanoid.

Of the three, I think the third is the least sensible interpretation. I could certainly see a case for, "Whatever you were, Dragonborn are Humanoids." I could also see the case for, "Whatever you were, Dragonborn are more dragon-y than that."

Ultimately, I'd call it a DM question. And a day.

But back on the point of making a big, scary klutz who thinks he's Olidammara's gift to pickpockets, hmm?

[Troacctid]

Did anyone mention Trapkiller Barbarian yet?

Thog is "searching for traps" (walking obliviously down the corridor) and accidentally triggers one. Luckily, he evades it with his "trap sense" (d12 hit die). "No worry! Thog disarm trap! Thog have Improved Disarm feat!" He pulls out his adamantine thieves' tools. *smash*