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    Default Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Canoeing
    Created for Crossroads: The New World

    Characters can use the swim skill in a new way in Crossroads, to make Canoeing checks. A character can use canoeing checks to propel a canoe or other personal watercraft, such as a kayak, bull-boat, or small raft. Any water vehicle that does not have a sail and is small enough for one or two paddlers to propel and control counts as a personal watercraft. Vehicles that require many paddlers working in sync are treated as small ships. Any reference to 'canoe' in this entry refers to whatever vehicle is being operated.
    While the basic use of a canoe is easily enough understood, it takes a certain amount of experience or training to maneuver one through more challenging situations. A character without the canoe mastery feat cannot has a maximum canoeing check result of 20. Any check they make that returns a result higher than 20 is treated as a result of 20.
    Maneuvering a canoe downstream over a calm river requires no check, and it moves at the speed of the river's current. Stronger characters can propel their canoes faster than the current though, increasing the canoe's speed by 5 ft per point of strength modifier. If a canoe has multiple paddlers, use the strongest character's strength modifier. If there is more than one canoeist in a canoe, only one character can make any given check, though other characters can make aid another checks to assist the canoeist.

    If a canoeist fails a canoeing check by 5 or less, the canoe becomes swamped, but remains upright. Delicate cargo may be damaged by water, and all canoeing checks take a -5 until the water can be dumped, bailed, or otherwise removed (Bailing takes one minute).
    If a canoeist fails a canoeing check by between 6 and 10, the canoe is swamped and heavily tipped, but still remains upright, spilling or ruining 50% of the cargo. All creatures in the canoe must make a DC 15 strength or dexterity check to remain in the canoe. All canoeing checks take a -5 penalty until the water can be dumped, bailed, or otherwise removed (Bailing takes one minute).
    If the canoeist fails a canoeing check by more than 10, the canoe is completely upended, spilling all cargo and dumping all creatures in the canoe into the water.

    Task DC
    Maneuver Canoe 10
    Traverse Deep Lakes 10
    Reverse Direction 15
    Right Canoe 15
    Perform 90-degree turn 20
    Traverse Low (<10 ft) Falls 20
    Traverse Oceans 20
    Traverse High (11-20 ft) Falls 30
    Traverse Perilous (21-30 ft) Falls 40
    Heavy Cargo +1
    Shallow Rapids +5
    Strong Winds +5
    Swift Rapids +10
    Waterfall Nearby +10
    Dangerous Rapids +15

    Maneuver Canoe: Moving over a river in most situations requires no checks to perform. However, moving through rapids, or shallow water, or avoiding a hazard, requires the canoeist to make a maneuver canoe check. This DC is modified by conditions such as a heavy load, rapids, strong winds, the presence of a waterfall, or similar. This is a full-round action. A successful check means the canoeist, and the canoe, do not suffer the negative effects of such a hazard. some hazards are long enough that they may require more than one check to fully avoid.

    Traverse Deep Lakes: Deep lakes — lakes with a maximum depth of 50 feet or more — are not always as easy to cross as a slow-flowing, calm river. Deepwater lakes can have hidden currents that can take a canoe, and winds often gust over the surface of the water, creating whitecaps. One check represents up to an hour of travel, but if any move or standard action is taken during that hour, another check must be made following that action.

    Reverse Direction: Reversing direction is a difficult maneuver even in the best of conditions. The maneuver consists of first bringing the canoe to a relative stop, then working the canoe back in the other direction. The maneuver is a full-round action.

    Right Canoe: A canoe that has overturned (whether completely upside down or on its side and swamped with water) can quickly become a deadly situation. Righting an overturned canoe is not easy, but can be done. This maneuver is full-round action.

    Perform 90-Degree Turn: Like reversing direction, performing a 90 degree turn is an extremely difficult maneuver. Usually, this involves swinging the canoe crossways against either the current or the wind. Performing this maneuver is a full-round action.

    Traverse Low (<10 ft.) Falls: Some skilled canoeists are able to steer a canoe over a waterfall in such a way that the canoe does not overturn at the bottom, and no cargo is spilled. Performing this maneuver is a full-round action. Passengers (except the character performing the check) must succeed at a DC 10 Strength or Dexterity check to keep from being thrown out.

    Traverse Oceans Skillful canoeists can cake canoes and personal watercraft onto oceans, though such vehicles are usually poorly-suited to open ocean travel, and will stick to coastlines. Oceans may have tall, powerful waves, extreme gusts of wind, and hidden currents and riptides that could disastrously mislead a canoeist. One check represents up to an hour of travel, but if any move or standard action is taken during that hour, another check must be made following that action.

    Traverse High (11 ft. to 20 ft.) Falls: Even more difficult than falls of 10 feet or less are those waterfalls between 11 feet and 20 feet high. Performing this maneuver is a full-round action. Passengers (except the character performing the check) must succeed at a DC 15 Strength or Dexterity check to keep from being thrown out.

    Traverse Perilous (21 ft. to 30 ft.) falls: The most experienced and skilled of all canoeists are able to guide their canoes in relative safety over waterfalls between 21 feet high and 30 feet high. Performing this maneuver is a full-round action. Passengers (except the character performing the check) must succeed at a DC 20 Strength or Dexterity check to keep from being thrown out.

    Waterfalls of 31 feet or more in height cannot be safely maneuvered over with this skill.

    Heavy Load: In rapids and shallow water, the DC of a maneuver canoe check is increased by +1 for every 100 pounds (cargo and creatures combined) in the canoe. If shallows are too low to cross normally, some passengers may need to get out and wade alongside the canoe in order for to pass through.

    Shallow Rapids: Shallow rapids are those with few protruding rocks and not much whitewater. Attempting to maneuver a canoe in such rapids increases the DC of the canoeing check by +5. See 'rapids' below for the effects of rapids.

    Strong Winds: Strong winds can make it more challenging to maneuver a canoe, and may even turn over a canoe that is unprepared. Attempting to maneuver a canoe in such winds increases the DC of the canoeing check by +5.

    Swift Rapids: Swift, deep rapids are those rapids with some protruding rocks and at least a small amount of whitewater. Attempting to maneuver a canoe in such rapids increases the DC of the canoeing check by +10.

    Waterfall Nearby: The pull of a waterfall is very hard to resist, and can spell disaster to an unprepared canoeist. Attempting to maneuver a canoe within 50 feet of the top of a waterfall increases the DC of the canoeing check by +10. This modifier does not apply to checks made to traverse the falls.

    Dangerous Rapids: Dangerous whitewater rapids are one of the most difficult conditions for a canoeist to maneuver through. Dangerous rapids are those rapids with many large boulders or rocks protruding from the water and more whitewater than other types of rapids. Attempting to maneuver a canoe in such rapids increases the DC of the canoeing check by +15.

    Action: Varies, as detailed above. Generally, getting in and out of a canoe on land is a move action. Getting into a canoe from a swimming start requires a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

    Hazards

    Rapids
    Rapids are dangerous places to be. Canoeing checks can allow one to safely navigate them, but if one should fail, there are serious hazards.
    The fast-moving current has a chance to disorient creatures caught in it. Any creature in the water must roll a percentile chance to be disoriented. If they fail, they are dazed for one round as they flail helplessly in the wrong direction.
    Any creature or object in rapids takes bludgeoning damage each round. A successful reflex by a creature save may reduce the damage to nonlethal, as they avoid the most dangerous of collisions, but are still battered by current and stone. Unattended objects receive no save.
    If a creature makes a successful reflex save, they can make a strength check against the reflex DC to try and hang on to something, a rock or a tree or some other solid object. Holding on in rapids is difficult, and the DC to maintain one's grip increases by 2 each round. As long as they hold on, they do not need to roll to avoid disorientation and do not continue to take damage from the current, and can take actions normally, though they take a -5 penalty to the check to hold on if they let go with one hand to perform some other action.
    Swimming through rapids safely without falling to the current is extremely difficult, and requires a swim check, with a DC indicated below. If the swimmer fails this check, they are once more caught by the current and must roll to avoid disorientation and damage as before.

    Rapids Strength Disorientation Damage Reflex Swim DC
    Shallow 25% 2d6 15 20
    Swift 50% 4d6 20 30
    Dangerous 75% 6d6 30 40

    Equipment

    Paddles

    Simple Two-Handed Weapons
    Name Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Dmg (L) Critical Range Weight Type Special
    Paddle .1 VP 1d4 1d6 1d8 ×2 4 lbs. B See Below
    Battle Paddle 1 VP 1d6 1d8 2d6 x3 - 5 lb B or S -
    Double Paddle .2 VP 1d4/1d4 1d6/1d6 1d8/1d8 x2 - 6 lb B Double, See Below
    Double Battle Paddle 2 VP 1d6/1d6 1d8/1d8 2d6/2d6 x3 - 8 lb B or S Double

    Paddle
    A paddle is a simple item, a long, wooden shaft with a handle on one end and a wide, flat wooden blade on the other. A basic paddle will serve as a weapon is a pinch, but it is not intended as one inherently. All attack rolls made with a paddle take a -2 penalty due to the non-weapon design of the paddle.
    A masterwork paddle grants a +2 bonus to canoeing checks made while wielding it.

    Battle Paddle
    A battle paddle is very much like a regular paddle, a long, wooden shaft with a handle on one end and a wide, flat wooden blade on the other. However, a battle paddle's blade is made of ironwood and sharpened to a fine edge. It is also much better balanced, and the handle is reinforced to tolerate the forces involved in combat.
    A masterwork battle paddle grants a +2 bonus to canoeing checks made while wielding it.

    Double Paddle
    A double paddle is a simple item, with a long, wooden shaft with a wide, flat wooden blade on each end. A basic double paddle will serve as a weapon is a pinch, but it is not intended as one inherently. All attack rolls made with a double paddle take a -2 penalty due to the non-weapon design of the double paddle. A double paddle is a double weapon.
    A masterwork double paddle grants a +2 bonus to canoeing checks made while wielding it.

    Double Battle Paddle
    A double battle paddle is very much like a regular double paddle, a long, wooden shaft with a wide, flat wooden blade on each end. However, a battle paddle's blades are crafted of ironwood and sharpened to a fine edge. The handle is also reinforced to tolerate the forces involved in combat. A double battle paddle is a double weapon.
    A masterwork battle paddle grants a +2 bonus to canoeing checks made while wielding it.

    Magic Paddles
    Name Price
    Beaver -
    Catfish -
    Kingfisher -
    Muskrat -
    Vortex -
    Spoiler: Paddle Details
    Show

    Beaver
    Price +53,000? (probably should be discounted, due to positioning requirement)
    Aura Moderate Evocation; CL 10th; Weight -
    Description
    The beaver enchantment can only be applied to a paddle, battle paddle, double paddle, or double battle paddle. Typically, a beaver paddle is decorated or crafted to resemble a stylized beaver, with the tail on the paddle. When used, the tail paddle flexes and slaps the water, making sure it connects properly with the surface of the water.
    A beaver paddle can be used to slap the surface of a liquid to create a very loud, distinctive sound. The wielder must be adjacent to a body of liquid large enough to slap with the paddle in order to use this effect. The sound created is very loud, able to be heard up to a mile away, and quite distinctive. It can be useful in frightening quarry, signaling distant allies, or even to send messages in morse code.
    Additionally, the paddle can be used offensively, concentrating the sound into a burst, either in a 10-foot radius or a 30-foot cone. Creatures in the area take 3d6 points of sonic damage, and may be pushed away as if bull rushed. The wielder makes a combat maneuver check and applies its results to each creature in the area. Their CMB for this bull rush is equal to their swim ranks plus their strength modifier. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This effect cannot penetrate the area of a silence spell or similar magical silence effects.

    Construction Requirements
    Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Discordant Blast, Creator must be a bard; Cost ?

    Catfish
    Price +10,000 VP
    Aura Faint Transmutation; CL ?; Weight -
    Description
    The catfish enchantment can only be applied to a paddle, battle paddle, double paddle, or double battle paddle. A catfish paddle may be designed to resemble a catfish, but it could also be stylized to resemble any aquatic creature with blindsight or blindsense, and the creature in question varies from region to region. The paddle typically has carved or painted-on barbels, antennae, or whiskers around the edge of the blade, which may emerge from the surface to float freely while underwater.
    The wielder of a catfish paddle has greater ability to sense the waters around their craft. As long as the catfish paddle is in contact with a body of liquid, the wielder can perceive what happens within it as though they possessed blindsense out to 30 feet. This blindsense only functions within the body of liquid the paddle is touching, and does not extend beyond the liquid’s surface, or to to any other bodies of water within range. The blindsense allows you to perceive hidden rocks, how deep the water is (should the bottom be within range) and so on, granting you a +5 bonus to maneuver canoe checks made to avoid a hazard.

    Construction Requirements
    Craft Magic Arms and Armor, ?; Cost +5000 VP

    Kingfisher
    Price +1
    Aura Faint Enchantment; CL 7th; Weight
    Description
    The kingfisher enchantment can only be applied to a paddle, battle paddle, double paddle, or double battle paddle. Typically, a kingfisher paddle will be decorated or carved to resemble the feathers or pattern of a kingfisher. Most often, it is applied to a battle paddle.
    A kingfisher paddle allows its wielder to see and strike through the water as though it weren’t there. The wielder of a kingfisher paddle can perceive the surface of the water, but see through it as though it were glass, with no reflections or refraction to conceal what’s below it. The surface of the water does not provide cover against the wielder of a kingfisher paddle. Underwater creatures cannot use stealth to hide from the wielder unless some other form of cover or concealment is available, such as muddy water or thick aquatic plants. Attacks with a kingfisher paddle slice through water as easily as air, and take no penalty to attack or damage rolls while underwater. Creatures that are partially or wholly submerged are not considered to have any form of cover against the wielder.

    Construction Requirements
    Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Freedom of Movement; Cost +1

    Muskrat
    Price +30,000?
    Aura Faint Enchantment; CL 5; Weight -
    Description
    The muskrat enchantment can only be applied to a paddle, battle paddle, double paddle, or double battle paddle. Typically, a muskrat paddle is carved or decorated to resemble the webbed foot of a muskrat, the handle marked to resemble fur.
    While carrying or wielding a muskrat paddle, the wielder and all their gear is protected from becoming wet. They may even be completely submerged and come out completely dry. This effect protects them and their gear from the effects of contact or submersion in any kind of liquid, be it freezing water, boiling water, acid, or even magma. This does not protect them against acid or other liquid-based attacks, it is only effective against contact and submersion in non-magical substances. The effect does not allow air to circulate, the wielder and any creatures on their person must hold their breath normally to avoid drowning, and any open flames are extinguished. When the wielder is in a personal watercraft, this effect extends to the entire craft, protecting other passengers and cargo as well, though the protection ends if they leave or fall out of the vehicle, or if the wielder leaves or falls out.

    Construction Requirements
    Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Protection from Energy; Cost ?

    Vortex
    Price +20,000 VP
    Aura Faint Evocation; CL 7th; Weight -
    Description
    The vortex enchantment can only be applied to a paddle, battle paddle, double paddle, or double battle paddle. Typically, a vortex paddle is decorated with a delicate swirling pattern on the shaft or blade, which may even appear to rotate slowly when watched, faster when a whirlpool is in place.
    The wielder of a vortex paddle can use it to stir a body of water and create a whirlpool. As a standard action, the wielder may make a canoeing check to create a whirlpool 5 feet in diameter and 5 feet deep in any adjacent square of liquid. This whirlpool has a DC equal to the result of the wielder’s canoeing check. The body of liquid must be large enough to contain a whirlpool of this size. This whirlpool lasts for one minute, and stays in the square it was created, regardless of current. If another whirlpool is created while one whirlpool still remains, the old whirlpool immediately dissipates. Any personal watercraft or large or smaller creature (other than the wielder or the wielder’s canoe) that comes within 5 feet of this whirlpool risks being pulled in. Victims can attempt to resist being pulled in by rolling against the whirlpool’s DC, creatures rolling swim checks and personal watercraft making canoeing checks. If pulled in, the creature or personal watercraft is trapped in the swirling current, unable to move away. A canoeist that fails the check is subject to the usual effects of failing a canoeing check, and any passengers that fall out are automatically trapped in the vortex. If the vortex is in shallow water (less than 10 feet deep), within 5 feet of some hazard (such as large rocks or trees), or has more than one creature or object trapped inside it, all trapped creatures and objects takes 2d6 points of bludgeoning damage each round at the start of their turn. Creatures may attempt a swim check against the whirlpool’s DC to reduce this damage to nonlethal. Creatures or canoes trapped in the current may attempt to escape the whirlpool with another swim or canoeing check against the whirlpool’s DC as a standard action. Successfully escaping the whirlpool places the creature or personal watercraft just outside the whirlpool’s area of effect, in a space of their choice. Creatures larger than large or water vehicles larger than personal watercraft are not affected by a whirlpool.

    Construction Requirements
    Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Control Water; Cost 10,000 VP


    Canoes
    Name Cost Weight Max. Capacity Base Weight Construction Special
    - - - - - - -

    Spoiler: Canoe Details
    Show

    -


    Feats

    Canoe Mastery
    You are experienced in maneuvering or operating a canoe, and can accomplish more challenging feats than an untrained canoeist.
    Benefits: You no longer have a maximum canoeing check result.
    Last edited by Admiral Squish; 2014-08-25 at 04:25 PM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    So, I decided this needed to be made for the crossroads setting. After much debate, we decided that a new use of swim was a better option than it being its own skill, so I whipped this up. I figured it would be wisest to post it and subject it to the forum's expertise, rather than just leaving it in the crossroads thread, since we want to be sure this is balanced.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Sorry it took me so long to chime in, but what you've got here, as always, is impeccably done and neatly formatted. I'm very impressed with your thoroughness, and I suspect that it will probably stand up pretty well under actual playtesting.

    Really, I have only one small complaint with your write-up. You say that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    Traverse Oceans Skillful canoeists can cake canoes and personal watercraft onto oceans, though such vehicles are usually poorly-suited to open ocean travel, and will stick to coastlines.
    I think that the Haida people would disagree with you on this one. Pacific Northwest canoes were the main form of transportation for the indigenous people of the area, even centuries after European colonization, because they worked. Sure, it's somewhat risky to go out to sea in a smaller boat, but there's plenty that can go wrong in a big boat, too: more moving parts means more chance for mishap, and less maneuverability.

    I guess it kind of depends on how you define "open ocean travel", but I feel that it shouldn't be prohibitively difficult to handle a canoe on the open ocean. We don't really need to make it more difficult to travel on the seas, since the players will already be discouraged from doing it too often by the inherent risk of taking a small vessel out into a big ocean. Perhaps we could find some sort of trade-off between stability and maneuverability? For example, a sixty-foot canoe is extremely stable on the ocean, but it would be suicide to run whitewater rapids in one of them, and you'd get stuck going around narrow river-bends. Conversely, a ten-foot canoe can dart through the rapids like a salmon with nary a scratch, but you could get swamped by a wave that a sixty-footer wouldn't even notice.

    And why would it be necessary to make another Canoeing check after every action taken? Was this to reflect some aspect of open-ocean canoe travel I'm not familiar with, or was it a mechanical decision, for purposes of balancing the skill?

    Oh, and this might be a good place for us to provide stats for different lengths and types of canoes (bark, dugout, kayak, umiaq, etc). And, because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment, I whipped up a little table which might serve our needs.

    Spoiler: Types of Watercraft
    Show
    Type Bark, 15 ft. Bark, 30 ft. Dugout, 15 ft. Dugout, 30 ft. Kayak, 15 ft. Umiaq, 30 ft.
    Weight 1,200 lbs 2,400 lbs 2,400 lbs 4,800 lbs 600 lbs 1,200 lbs
    Maneuverability
    Stability
    Hardness 2 2 5 5 2 2
    HP 10 10 20 20 5 5
    Special ram other canoes? take no cold damage from capsizing

    I based the weight of the dugout on the following statement:
    In 1978, Geordie Tocher and two companions sailed a 3.5-short-ton (3.2 t [or 6,400 lbs]), 40-foot (12 m) dugout canoe (the Orenda II), made of Douglas fir, and based on Haida designs (but with sails), from Vancouver, Canada to Hawaiʻi
    I assumed that a 15-footer is half the weight of a 30-footer, that a bark canoe is half the weight of a dugout, and that a leather vessel is half the weight of a bark canoe. Some of the weights still seem a little too high, but I really don't have a point of reference, and finding the weights of traditional-style canoes is surprisingly difficult.
    Last edited by SuperDave; 2014-08-06 at 04:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    I'm glad you like the look of the skill!

    Ocean Travel
    This entry specifically refers to small watercraft, personal ones that could be operated by one or two individuals, ones where a single individual could have a significant effect on the direction and speed of the watercraft as a whole. Huge oceangoing canoes that involve many paddlers working together would not use this skill, they would be covered under ships. Ocean travel is rather difficult for a personal watercraft because it's so small and so easily effected by wind, waves, and in particular, currents, which a paddler would have no means to fight against, beyond the strength of their arms. Yes, a large ocean canoe would have little trouble with such waters, but a single-person canoe would be extremely vulnerable out in the deep water.


    Canoe Stats
    I don't think we need to get all THAT detailed about the specific traits of different kinds of personal watercraft, but I do think we should have some way to differentiate between different kinds of canoe. For example, a kayak, properly laced to the coat, would be able to roll over without spilling or wetting the occupant or any of the cargo. Bull boats aren't very stable, and may spin, but they have a number of other advantages (Now that I mention them, I'm not certain how having a bull-boat attached would affect your ability to canoe). Different materials should also be accounted for, though I think we can break them into 'solid' and 'skin' without going much further than that.
    Maybe something like weapon descriptions, with a short paragraph or two describing the traits of a certain watercraft, and a table entry detailing things like length, weight, material, value, and maybe a craft DC? A lot of canoes were made by one person in the course of a few days.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    OK, you make a good point with ocean travel. It can stay as-is, but you might wanna mention that you're only talking about smaller canoes, and that longer canoes count as very small ships.

    I imagine that asides from the added weight, a bull-boat wouldn't change much about how the canoe handles. It might add to the drag you experience going upstream, and might make it easier for you to get caught in the pull of a waterfall (and of course, it would likely be badly damaged if you tried to take it through any rapids), honestly, they're so light and hydrodynamic that you might forget it's there (though I do not speak from experience on this matter).

    We definitely need to cover Craft DCs for different types of canoes (bark, dugout, and skin/leather), as well as their Hardness, total HP, resistance to sunder/capsize attempts, and the DCs of Craft checks to repair them if they're damaged. Players in our setting are almost assured to spend a substantial amount of time traveling by canoe, so it's important that we consider every eventuality.

    And as long as we're on the subject of canoeing., I've been working on some neat accessories for savvy canoeiests: enchanted paddles! All of them could be used to paddle a canoe, whack a water-monster in the head, or for their neat magical abilities. Should I drop 'em in this thread, or do you think it would be best for me to start a separate one so they get more exposure?
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Why change it from Survival Skill to Swim skill? It's already stated in the Pathfinder rules that navigation by canoe is based on Survival.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Why change it from Survival Skill to Swim skill? It's already stated in the Pathfinder rules that navigation by canoe is based on Survival.
    Because Survival is Intelligence-based, and you can't make better progress against a raging river swollen by autumn floods by thinking really hard about paddling. Ultimately, (and i say this as someone who goes canoeing almost every weekend) canoeing is a battle of strength: you versus the power of the river. Even if you understand the physics of water and canoes better than anyone else in the world, that knowledge is useless without the physical power to make the canoe do what you want.

    I agree that there's definitely a mental component to canoeing effectively, but the same thing could be said for safely climbing trees and flying through high winds, both of which are Strength -based skills in Pathfinder.

    However, you bring up a good point. Perhaps Survival would be called for when planning the route a canoe-caravan will take, or estimating time to a destination, or even shouting instructions to less-skilled canoeists.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    You already have canoeing used as a Survival skill in the Sisiutl write-up (see treasure). I don't know where else it may have popped up. Consistency is gong to be an issue.

    The one thing I did like best was the chart that shows the various DCs of maneuvering the canoe. That will help the DM a lot more rather than deciding whether it should be swim skill or a survival skill to paddle a canoe. The thing I like best is your chart with the various tasks and their DCs.

    Don't bog down in too much realism as it has to be FUN. Most of the time, travel if hand-waved as the destination is far more important than the journey. For a short side trek in which the PCs have to navigate through rapids, around boulders, and perhaps over a fall, this could be fun but don't make it onerous. If they have to make a skill check every time the river bends, it's not going to be fun.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Ocean Travel
    Alright, I made a note specifying what is and is not a personal watercraft as covered under this skill.

    Attached Bull-boat
    Hmmm... I mean, it wouldn't add to your weight in the water, since it's floating independently, and since most movement is just downstream, you wouldn't have to push that much harder to move. But without the aid of the current, the paddlers would have to move that much more weight, which would make any maneuver that pits you against the current somewhat more difficult. I think, since the attached boat would be only indirectly controlled, it wouldn't be able to make unusual maneuvers or survive through rapids, either. I'll have to figure out the exact mechanics when we start making stats.

    Canoe Stats
    Okay, so, a table would need the name for the canoe, the material (hardness/HP would be implied), The craft DC/repair DC (which could just be the same number), Weight (for portaging), and Special (which would say if there's unusual traits associated with this kind of canoe). Sunder resistance would just be hardness, and capsize attempts are rare enough that I don't think we'd need a specific number for each kind.

    Paddles
    Well, it would probably make sense to keep all the canoe-related stuff all in one place, so you may as well just post them here. I can put 'em into the first post with the canoe-stats table I'm gonna make soon.

    Survival
    More or less what he said. Survival is a mental skill, and while it would have its uses for identifying non-obvious hazards and figuring out one's best course through tricky waters, the act of actually maneuvering the canoe through such a region requires physical strength to make the canoe move in the way you intend it to.
    There will certainly be some continuity issues to hammer out, since I think we still mention a 'handle canoe' skill in several places, but I'm confident we can get it all straightened out.

    Maybe survival or knowledge (nature) provides a synergy bonus to canoeing checks?

    Fun
    What is this fun you speak of? Where are the rules for fun?
    I kid, of course. This skill use is supposed to be relatively approachable, easy to use, but unobtrusive. Unless the DM starts throwing hazards into the journey, a character can make most trips without having to roll at all, and can travel more challenging waters with relatively few rolls. But the options are there, so if there is to be a canoe-race in the game, or a battle on the whitewater, or some sort of water-based chase, the DM can do that without having to pull rules out of his backside.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Apparently there will be no sleeping for SuperDave tonight, so as long as I'm up, here are the paddles I promised.

    Enchanted Paddles


    For most practical purposes, unless otherwise noted, all enchanted paddles have the following statistics
    Name Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Dmg (L) Critical Range Hardness HP Weight Type Special
    paddle 1d4 1d6 1d8 ×2 5 10 4 lbs. B

    Paddle of the Otter
    Aura faint evocation; CL 7th
    Slot none; Price 804,700 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: This birchwood canoe paddle is decorated with carvings of a family of playful otters, swimming after each other in a helix along the shaft. Three times per day, the wielder may use the paddle to stir a body of water into a whirlpool as a standard action, creating a whirlpool 5 feet in diameter and 5 feet deep in an adjacent square of liquid. The whirlpool remains in place for one minute, but if this ability is used again during this time, the existing whirlpool dissipates. Any Medium or smaller creature that comes within 5 feet of that square must make a Swim check (DC 25) or be dragged into the whirlpool and pulled 5 feet under the surface, to be held there at the base of the whirlpool until it dissipates. The victim may make a new Swim check against the same DC as a standard action each round to try to escape the whirlpool into an adjacent square. If the liquid is shallower than 10 ft, the victim takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage each round as they strike the bottom while spinning. Any canoe (other than the wielder's) passing within 5 feet of the whirlpool must make a DC 25 canoeing check to avoid being pulled in and spun. Failing this check has the normal consequences for failing a canoeing check, but additionally, the canoe is trapped in place, spinning in the vortex. A canoeist can attempt a new canoeing check to escape the whirlpool into an adjacent square as a full-round action, rolling against the same DC. A canoe trapped in this way may take damage as it strikes nearby rocks, trees, or other hazards. Any creatures that fall from the canoe are automatically pulled under by the whirlpool as described above, but they can make swim check to escape as normal. Water vehicles larger than personal watercraft are not affected by the whirlpool.
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, vortex; Cost 402,350 gp

    Paddle of the Beaver
    Aura moderate evocation; CL 10th
    Slot none; Price 46,460 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description
    The handle of this birch wood canoe paddle is carved in the likeness of a beaver’s head; the blade is carved in the likeness of a beaver’s tail.
    When the blade is used to slap the surface of a body of water, it makes an extremely loud and distinctive sound, which can be heard up to a mile away. This sound can be useful in coordinating actions over long distances, frightening quarry from hiding or into flight, and sending very simple messages via Morse code.
    Up to three times per day when this effect is generated, the wielder may concentrate all the sound released into either in a 10-foot radius burst centered on the wielder or in 30-foot cone-shaped burst, as the spell discordant blast. Creatures in the area take 3d6 points of sonic damage. In addition, Medium and smaller creatures are pushed 10 feet away; Large creatures are pushed 5 feet away; and larger creatures are not moved.
    Construction
    Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, discordant blast, creator must be a bard; Cost 23,230 gp


    Paddle of the Muskrat
    Aura faint enchantment; CL ?th
    Slot none; Price 56,250 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: The blade of this maple canoe paddle is carved to resemble the long, webbed hind-feet of a muskrat; a whiskered face adorns the handle. As long as a character has this paddle on his person, he gains the “Hold Breath” special ability, and takes no cold damage from touching freezing water or ice. Additionally, his person, clothing, and all carried gear remain dry, no matter how long they are submerged in any liquid. This effect does not cause oxygen to circulate, it merely prevents submerged objects from getting wet; submerged flames are still extinguished normally, and any creatures on the character’s person (such as animal companions) begin to drown when their breath runs out.
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, protection from energy, and water breathing; Cost 28,125 gp


    Paddle of the Salmon
    Aura moderate enchantment; CL ?th
    Slot none; Price ??? gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: The blade of this red cedarwood canoe paddle is carved with the likeness of a salmon and painted in bright red, vibrant green, and speckled along its length with black spots. When used to paddle a canoe, it allows the user to [negate movement penalties from swift current? and maybe leap up waterfalls 1/day?]
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, and [spell?]; Cost [½ “Price”] gp


    Paddle of the Kingfisher
    Aura faint enchantment; CL ?th
    Slot none; Price ??? gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: As long as a character has this paddle on their person, they take no penalty to see things below the surface of any body of water. This effect does not grant darksight, nor the ability to see through silt, ice, or dense aquatic vegetation; it merely removes glare and cancels out the optical refraction of water, allowing a character to see and aim at underwater creatures as if they were looking at them through air alone. The character can still see the water, and tell where its surface is; this effect simply negates the natural “bending” of light which passes through the water and into the character’s eyes.
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, and [spell?]; Cost [½ “Price”] gp


    Paddle of the Catfish
    Aura faint enchantment; CL ?th
    Slot none; Price ??? gp; Weight 5 lbs.
    Description: This cypress paddle is carved with the likeness of a catfish, with the "eyes" on either edge of the blade, and the mouth and barbels ("whiskers") on the underside. As long as a character has this paddle on their person, they gain the [blindsense or blindsight?] special ability [while underwater, or at all times?].
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, and [spell?]; Cost [½ “Price”] gp


    Big question: can enchanted paddles have ironwood cast on them? What about wood shape?
    Last edited by SuperDave; 2014-08-18 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    The difficulty classes seem a bit high across the board. Even deep lakes are not all that hard to traverse - a passing familiarity with canoeing generally covers it, provided there aren't high winds or rapids (both of which are modifiers). 90 degree turns are also generally not all that hard, though you didn't specify how quickly the turn had to happen. It's also something that's substantially easier to do with two people in the canoe, which should probably be taken into account with the difficulties.

    Failure by 6-10 also seems needlessly complicated, rules wise. There are a few calculations to make, particularly if there are different types of cargo, and it has the potential to slow the game down.

    The heavy load also seems pretty odd. Take a typical two person canoe - just the people could easily mass 300 pounds, which adds 3 to all DCs. Plus, it helps to have at least some weight in the canoe, as if it's too light it will capsize more easily. I'd recommend changing it to every 100 pounds over the baseline weight. People having to get out to get through shallows stays entirely functional.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Apparently there will be no sleeping for SuperDave tonight, so as long as I'm up, here are the paddles I promised.
    Paddle of the Otter should be a Minor Artifact. It's cost is way too high. Why are there playful otters on an item that causes so much destruction?

    Paddle of the Otter
    Aura Strong evocation; CL 7th
    Slot none; Price 804,700 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: This birchwood canoe paddle is decorated with carvings of a family of playful otters, swimming after each other in a helix along the shaft. Three times per day, the wielder may use the paddle to stir a body of liquid into a raging vortex, provided that the body of liquid large enough to contain the spell's effect. Any Large or smaller creature that comes in contact with the spell effect must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 20) or take 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage. A Medium or smaller creature that fails its first save must succeed on a second one or be pulled into the whirlpool and held suspended in its powerful currents, taking 1d8 points of damage each round on your turn with no save allowed. You may direct the whirlpool to eject any carried creatures whenever you wish. A boat that is equal in length or shorter than the vortex's width that passes through a vortex takes 6d6 points of damage and is caught up by the current. If the boat's captain makes a DC 25 Profession (sailor) check (or if the boat is longer than the vortex's width), the boat takes only half damage and is not caught up by the vortex. This effect can be invoked underwater.
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, vortex; Cost 402,350 gp

    Vortex is a 7th level spell so its aura is Strong (see detect magic on how to figure out auras)

    I don't think the vortex cast underwater would suddenly move upward; the point is to drag creature's down. The user just determines where the vortex goes.

    Your price and thus cost are grossly low. Price for a wondrous item is Spell Level X Minimum Caster Level needed to cast the spell X activation fee x duration modifier x2 for being slotless. Vortex is a 7th level spell with a minimum CL of 12 and it use activated and the spell's duration is in rounds. 7 x 12 x 2,000 x 4 since its duration is in rounds divided by 1.67 since it is only usable 3 times per day x2 for being slotless. Then I just round down to nearest 100 gp. Price is 804,700 gp; Cost is 402,350 gp. This is massively pricey because it is extremely powerful.

    Since a spellcaster has to have a minimum ability of of 17 to cast 7th level spells, that is the basis for the DC Reflex save. the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. So 10 +7 +3 = DC 20. Minimum ability to cast a spell is 10 + spell level (and you use that modifier).

    Paddle of the Beaver suffers from the same mistakes. Aura is Moderate for 5th level spell but I think you are using the wrong spell. Just take the text from the spell or use more than one spell to get the desired effect. It does more than one thing so more than one spell should be used. I have no idea what you mean by "it can coordinate actions over long distances."

    What is should do is the following (message spell?), frighten quarry (fear spell) if it is deafness you want then use a deafness spell as discordant blast causes sonic damage. Since deafness is the strongest aura, that's the one that detects.

    Paddle of the Beaver
    Aura faint necromancy; CL 3rd
    Slot none; Price gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: The handle of this birch wood canoe paddle is carved in the likeness of a beaver’s head while the blade is carved in the likeness of a beaver’s tail. When the blade is used to slap the surface of a body of water, it makes an extremely loud and distinctive sound, which can be heard up to a mile away. This sound can be used in three different ways. First, the sound can frightening quarry. A successful Will save (DC 17) means the quarry is shaken rather than frightened. Secondly, the sound can be used to send very simple messages via Morse code (up to 25 words). Last of all, up to three times a day, the wielder can use the paddle to deafen opponents. Any opponent within 100 feet must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 14) or be permanently deafened.
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, deafen, fear, message; Cost gp. I forgot to double the costs for being slotless so my numbers are off. The more spells required, the more expensive these become. I'll leave the complex addition and multiplication to you as I'm a math impaired.


    Paddle of the Muskrat
    Aura faint abjuration and transmutation; CL 5th
    Slot none; Price 56,250 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: This maple canoe paddle is decorated with muskrats. As long as the owner has the paddle, he gains the Hold Breath special ability and takes no cold damage from touching freezing water or ice. Additionally, his body, clothing, and all carried gear remain dry, no matter how long they are submerged in any liquid. Submerged flames are still extinguished normally, and any creatures on the character’s person (such as animal companions) begin to drown when their breath runs out.
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, protection from energy, water breathing; Cost 28,125 gp

    3rd level spell x caster level 5 x 2,000 x 1.5 duration x 2 = 90,000 plus 3x5x2,000x1.5x2 x1.5 for dissimilar spell 135,000= 225,000 - 168,750= 56,250 this item is much weaker than the spells used, I'm giving it a 75% discount.

    Paddle of the Salmon
    Aura moderate enchantment; CL ?th
    Slot none; Price ??? gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description: The blade of this red cedarwood canoe paddle is carved with the likeness of a salmon and painted in bright red, vibrant green, and speckled along its length with black spots. When used to paddle a canoe, it allows the user to [negate movement penalties from swift current? and maybe leap up waterfalls 1/day?]
    Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, and [spell?]; Cost [½ “Price”] gp

    Doesn't need a spell since this should just give a bonus to whatever skill is being used to paddle a canoe. Price is 2,000 time bonus squared. aura is abjuration. See Magic Items and Detect Magic. The more things you add, the more expensive items become.

    I'll let you figure out the others.

    Big question: can enchanted paddles have ironwood cast on them? What about wood shape?
    Yes you can cast ironwood on a wooden paddle but it adds to the cost and weight. Why would you add woodshape to the paddle?

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-08-13 at 05:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Paddles
    Otter
    Otters may look cute, but they're not necessarily cuddly.
    I must admit, the whole vortex spell seems... odd. I mean, I don't think a whirlpool actually crushes you, the real danger is disorientation and getting pulled under. Plus, 50 feet deep, 30 feet wide, it's WAY too big for an average river. How about:
    The wielder can stir a body of water into a whirlpool as a standard action, creating a whirlpool 5 ft in diameter and 5 ft deep in an adjacent square of liquid. The whirlpool remains in place for one minute, but if this ability is used again during this time, the existing whirlpool dissipates. Any medium or smaller creature that comes within 5 feet of that square must make a Swim check (DC 25) or be dragged into the whirlpool and pulled 5 ft under the surface, to be held there at the base of the whirlpool until it dissipates. The victim may make a new swim check against the same DC as a standard action each round to try to escape the whirlpool into an adjacent square. If the liquid is shallower than 10 ft, the victim takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage each round as they strike the bottom while spinning. Any canoe (other than the wielder's) passing within 5 feet of the whirlpool must make a DC 25 canoeing check to avoid being pulled in and spun. Failing this check has the normal consequences for failing a canoeing check, but additionally, the canoe is trapped in place, spinning in the vortex. A canoeist can attempt a new canoeing check to escape the whirlpool into an adjacent square as a full-round action, rolling against the same DC. A canoe trapped in this way may take damage as it strikes nearby rocks, trees, or other hazards. Any creatures that fall from the canoe are automatically pulled under by the whirlpool as described above, but they can make swim check to escape as normal. Water vehicles larger than personal watercraft are not affected by the whirlpool.

    Hmm... now it occurs to me, what if you made a canoeing check as part of the standard action to use it, the result being the Swim DC to escape and the canoeing DC to avoid? Makes pricing a challenge, but makes the item more useful over a range of levels.

    Beaver
    Debihuman, I think you attributed way too many abilities to this. The general idea seems to be that it just makes a loud noise. You don't need a message spell to scream, or a fear spell to startle birds. My take:
    The blade of this paddle can be used to strike the surface of a body of liquid as a standard action, creating a loud, distinctive slap that can be heard as much as a mile away, which can be useful for startling game or signaling distant allies. The paddle can also be useful offensively. Three times per day as a standard action it can be struck on the surface of a body of liquid more violently, channeling the sound into destructive power in the form of a 30 foot cone of sound. All creatures in the area are deafened for 2d6 round and take 5d6 points of sonic damage. A successful fortitude save (DC 17) negates the deafness and reduces the damage by half. Any exposed brittle or crystalline objects or crystalline creatures in the area take twice as much damage as normal. A creature holding brittle objects can negate damage to them with a reflex save (DC 17). This effect cannot penetrate the area of a silence spell.

    I wanted to have the damage, deafness duration, and save based on the wielder's str, but I wouldn't have been able to figure out the pricing, so I just used Shout.

    Muskrat
    Yeah, you don't need the line about circulating air in there, just drop that part and say creatures on their person 'must hold their breath as normal'. Maybe mention that while submerged flames are extinguished, the burning thing can be re-lit, as it's still dry.

    Salmon
    Hmmm... I got it:
    The wielder of this paddle gains a +5 bonus to canoeing checks when traveling upstream or against the current, and ignores the effects of a nearby waterfall when determining canoeing DCs. In addition, the wielder can travel up waterfalls as easily as they travel down them. As a full-round action, when at the bottom of a waterfall, the wielder can make a canoeing check with a DC equal to the DC for safely descending that waterfall. If the check is successful, they paddle their way up the curtain of water and emerge at the top of the waterfall, and can continue traveling normally from there.

    Kingfisher
    Hmmm. You know, I can't actually find anything that indicates that there is a perception penalty, or that water grants any kind of concealment to those within it. It's a cool, flavorful ability, but it doesn't seem to actually have a mechanical effect...
    Maybe attacks with a kingfisher paddle ignore cover provided by water? It would be great for boppin' watery beasties that get too close.

    Catfish
    I was expecting this to give you like... sonar or a watery version of tremorsense, then all of a sudden, spikes! That struck me as weird. Turns out, catfish do have spines, but only three, and they're relatively passive things and only cause a little swelling and a little extra bleeding if they puncture the skin. Certainly not con and wis damage, and it's not a thorough enough defense to

    Wood shape/Ironwood
    Wood shape on a paddle would reshape it. If you can't use it as a paddle anymore, then it would lose any magical effects relating to it being a paddle, at least until it were to be shaped into a paddle once again.
    Ironwood on a paddle would be inconvenient. It would be harder, but it would also be heavier. But there's one unmentioned advantage to ironwood. Ironwood can hold an edge. Paddle-axe! Well, probably more like a polearm, but still, awesome.

    Difficulties
    Lake
    Traversing a lake isn't particularly hard at all, it's a DC 10. Any character with swim as a class skill and a +1 str mod would be able to make the roll 75% of the time. Mostly it's just there to give a base DC to be modified and establish that traveling without the aid of a current requires regular checks. If there were no rolls required, then rough weather on a lake would either be a walk in the park, or they'd have to roll maneuver canoe every round.

    90-degree Turn
    I'll be honest, I have almost no experience with this particular maneuver. I'm building off a 3rd-party thing, and that's what they had for the DC. What would you suggest the 90-degree turn's DC be? It doesn't mention how quick the turn is, but the action is a full-round one. So, six seconds? As for being easier with two people, that's what aid another is for.

    Spill
    I thought I was being rather clever with that bit... :(
    I suppose now that I look at it again, it seems a bit needlessly complicated. Maybe I could just say the cargo's total value is decreased by 50%, some of it being spilled and other parts being ruined or damaged by the water. Hmm... but then, one would have to go through their gear and figure out what's spilled, what's wetted, and so on... Tough one.

    Heavy Load
    Well, the weight of the people is partially compensated by the benefits of aid another. Since each person would probably be about 200 pounds with all their gear and such, having them help with the paddling adds +2 to checks per person, effectively negating their overall effect.
    You do have a point, though... I don't know if I really want to add a baseline weight to each variety of canoe, though, that seems like quite a bit of research and math... I could reduce the situations the heavy load modifier applies, but that only reduces the impact of the problem, rather than fixing it...
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    I assumed that all of the beaver paddle's effects were magical in nature.

    While you could whack the water and startle a flock of birds with any sort of paddle, an actual fear effect should be magical in nature. If any paddle can be used to whack the water and send Morse code messages, why is it only noted in the Beaver paddle entry? To me, that means a message spell. Of course you are free to disagree but then you need to note what's a mundane use and what's a magical use.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    I assumed that all of the beaver paddle's effects were magical in nature.

    While you could whack the water and startle a flock of birds with any sort of paddle, an actual fear effect should be magical in nature. If any paddle can be used to whack the water and send Morse code messages, why is it only noted in the Beaver paddle entry? To me, that means a message spell. Of course you are free to disagree but then you need to note what's a mundane use and what's a magical use.

    Debby
    The effects are magical, in that the sound is magically amplified to be so loud and distinctive. That loud noise can be applied in a wide variety of ways, but those ways aren't going to be distinct magical effects.
    Take the immovable rod. It's just a rod that doesn't move. That's a magical effect. But you can use it to brace a door, or climb a pair like a ladder, or anchor a vehicle, and you don't need hold portal, or air walk, or other such spells to be involved in the item creation. They're not different spell effects, they're just applications of the item's magical properties.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Okay now it's cleared up that these aren't magical effects. The other problem I have is that the spell used with your beaver paddle (geeze that sounds rude) is that the spell used doesn't cause deafness at all. It's just a sonic attack that does 3d6 points of sonic damage and bull rush. To make it deafening, you should add deafness. Or just use deafness and forget about discordant blast. Discordant blast is a CL 10 spell since it is only a bard spell.

    Cost is 10 x 4 x 2,000 /1.67 = 47,904 but since only a bard can make this it is discounted 30% so 47,904-1,437=46467 rounded down is 46,460 gp for price and cost is 23,230 gp.

    Here is how it should read:

    Paddle of the Beaver
    Aura moderate evocation; CL 10th
    Slot none; Price 46,460 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
    Description
    The handle of this birch wood canoe paddle is carved in the likeness of a beaver’s head; the blade is carved in the likeness of a beaver’s tail.
    When the blade is used to slap the surface of a body of water, it makes an extremely loud and distinctive sound, which can be heard up to a mile away. This sound can be useful in coordinating actions over long distances, frightening quarry from hiding or into flight, and sending very simple messages via Morse code.
    Up to three times per day when this effect is generated, the wielder may concentrate all the sound released into either in a 10-foot radius burst centered on the wielder or in 30-foot cone-shaped burst, as the spell discordant blast. Creatures in the area take 3d6 points of sonic damage. In addition, Medium and smaller creatures are pushed 10 feet away; Large creatures are pushed 5 feet away; and larger creatures are not moved.
    Construction
    Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, discordant blast, creator must be a bard; Cost 23,230 gp

    There is no save for discordant blast spell.

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-08-16 at 05:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Oh man, this stuff is great! Thanks a ton, guys and gals! I'm adding your stuff to the post right now.

    You're right, Squish: it does seem like a better idea for the Paddle of the Catfish to ground blindsense underwater. I'm not sure how to do that right now though, so I'll come back to it later.

    Debby, I had honestly not considered the implications of "beaver-paddle" until this very moment.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Oh, the otter paddle should DEFINITELY NOT be using vortex as the base. It is a much, much too high-level spell for the effect. But since the paddle's abilities aren't directly based off a spell, we'll have to eyeball the price, rather than using the formula.
    I'm still tempted to make the DC to swim/canoe away from the vortex variable, based on a canoeing check of your own.

    I seem to remember some kind of aquatic blindsense in stormwrack we could cannibalize. I'll have to check my books.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    Oh, the otter paddle should DEFINITELY NOT be using vortex as the base. It is a much, much too high-level spell for the effect. But since the paddle's abilities aren't directly based off a spell, we'll have to eyeball the price, rather than using the formula.
    I'm still tempted to make the DC to swim/canoe away from the vortex variable, based on a canoeing check of your own.

    I seem to remember some kind of aquatic blindsense in stormwrack we could cannibalize. I'll have to check my books.
    Actually that's exactly what a vortex spell does, "You create a powerful and immobile whirlpool in any body of liquid large enough to contain the spell's effect. Any Large or smaller creature that comes in contact with the spell effect must succeed on a Reflex save or take 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage. A Medium or smaller creature that fails its first save must succeed on a second one or be pulled into the whirlpool and held suspended in its powerful currents, taking 1d8 points of damage each round on your turn with no save allowed. You may direct the whirlpool to eject any carried creatures whenever you wish. A boat that is equal in length or shorter than the vortex's width that passes through a vortex takes 6d6 points of damage and is caught up by the current. If the boat's captain makes a DC 25 Profession (sailor) check (or if the boat is longer than the vortex's width), the boat takes only half damage and is not caught up by the vortex."

    I copied it verbatim.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Actually that's exactly what a vortex spell does, "You create a powerful and immobile whirlpool in any body of liquid large enough to contain the spell's effect. Any Large or smaller creature that comes in contact with the spell effect must succeed on a Reflex save or take 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage. A Medium or smaller creature that fails its first save must succeed on a second one or be pulled into the whirlpool and held suspended in its powerful currents, taking 1d8 points of damage each round on your turn with no save allowed. You may direct the whirlpool to eject any carried creatures whenever you wish. A boat that is equal in length or shorter than the vortex's width that passes through a vortex takes 6d6 points of damage and is caught up by the current. If the boat's captain makes a DC 25 Profession (sailor) check (or if the boat is longer than the vortex's width), the boat takes only half damage and is not caught up by the vortex."

    I copied it verbatim.

    Debby
    Nono, your version's just fine, math's perfect. Though, you never mention how big the whirlpool is.
    I'm referring to my version, which is the one he ended up using in the big post. But since I didn't use a spell to come up with the effect of the item, there's no math to apply, we just have to figure out how powerful the effect is and price based on that.


    Rapids
    This just occurred to me, I think we need some details about rapids. Like, the kind of damage they do to the canoe (and people in the water) if you fail the check, and maybe something about what kind of check you would need to hold onto the rocks or safely make it to the shore.

    EDIT
    So, I just took a moment to reformat the first post a bit. Added the base stats for paddles, and added battle paddles, double paddles, and double battle paddles. Also added space for the magic paddles to go and for canoe stats. I also fixed the failing mechanic so you just spill/ruin 50% of your cargo when you fail by 6-10. I'm thinking I'll try to find a quite/image to up up at the top, make it nice and pretty.
    Last edited by Admiral Squish; 2014-08-17 at 09:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    For what rapids do in terms of damage and effects on person, my rough guess (based on some river crossings I have done) would be that they would have a disorientation effect, since the water flow will be moving you rapidly. This could be done with a Swim/Survival skill check with a DC 20 for small rapids and 25 for large rapids.

    If you have an effect for water damage over time compared to the water resistance of the material, I would say half the amount of time for small rapids, and a quarter time for large rapids due to the flowing water.

    As for blunt trauma from rocks, large rapids would cause twice the damage as small rapids due to force of the water, but I have no idea what dice size you want to use. 2d6 with a critical hit knocking the person out? That would make a small rapid 1d6 with the same critical.

    EDIT: Also, for more insights on the Voyageurs, the documentary "Quest for the Bay" may be useful. I suggest that because I cannot find a free version that I can view in Canada for a refresher on the series. It is a reenactment of the fur trade route from Lower Fort Gary in Manitoba to the Hudson Bay.
    Last edited by Mith; 2014-08-17 at 02:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    Nono, your version's just fine, math's perfect. Though, you never mention how big the whirlpool is.
    I'm referring to my version, which is the one he ended up using in the big post. But since I didn't use a spell to come up with the effect of the item, there's no math to apply, we just have to figure out how powerful the effect is and price based on that.
    Hmmm, that is a good point you bring up. Maybe we could say that it works as the spell, but with a much smaller radius, or with a radius that's related to the result of your Swim check to stir the water in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    I also fixed the failing mechanic so you just spill/ruin 50% of your cargo when you fail by 6-10.
    I hate to bring this up, but does this 50% figure also take into account how much of your gear just floats away? In fast-moving streams and rapids, you might lose as much as 100% of your cargo, and maybe even the canoe itself, if you fail by a large enough margin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    I'm thinking I'll try to find a quite/image to up up at the top, make it nice and pretty.
    If I might make a suggestion, how about The Descent of the Fraser River?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    For what rapids do in terms of damage and effects on person, my rough guess (based on some river crossings I have done) would be that they would have a disorientation effect, since the water flow will be moving you rapidly. This could be done with a Swim/Survival skill check with a DC 20 for small rapids and 25 for large rapids.

    If you have an effect for water damage over time compared to the water resistance of the material, I would say half the amount of time for small rapids, and a quarter time for large rapids due to the flowing water.

    As for blunt trauma from rocks, large rapids would cause twice the damage as small rapids due to force of the water, but I have no idea what dice size you want to use. 2d6 with a critical hit knocking the person out? That would make a small rapid 1d6 with the same critical.
    The damage sounds reasonable to me, but I'm not great at balancing things, so take that with a grain of salt. There should definitely be a disorientation effect, which requires a Survival check to figure out which way is up, but you don't learn whether you were correct until after you get the result of your Swim check to escape. So you might wind up swimming even deeper by accident.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    The price and cost of the Otter paddle is wrong as it is NOT continuous activation. Here's the amended formula

    spell level 7 x caster level 17 x 2000 for wondrous item x2 for slotless item /1.67 for 3 uses per day = 268,263 price. Since you need a skill to paddle a canoe in the first place, the cost should be reduced 10%. 268,263-26,826= 241,437 price and rounding down is 241,400 price and cost is 120,700. I think that is far more reasonable. What do you think?

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    The price and cost of the Otter paddle is wrong as it is NOT continuous activation. Here's the amended formula

    spell level 7 x caster level 17 x 2000 for wondrous item x2 for slotless item /1.67 for 3 uses per day = 268,263 price. Since you need a skill to paddle a canoe in the first place, the cost should be reduced 10%. 268,263-26,826= 241,437 price and rounding down is 241,400 price and cost is 120,700. I think that is far more reasonable. What do you think?

    Debby
    I continue to think vortex is not a valid spell for this situation. Whatever body of water you would want to use it on needs to be like 50 feet deep, which is just not gonna happen on any river I've ever seen.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    The price and cost of the Otter paddle is wrong as it is NOT continuous activation. Here's the amended formula

    spell level 7 x caster level 17 x 2000 for wondrous item x2 for slotless item /1.67 for 3 uses per day = 268,263 price. Since you need a skill to paddle a canoe in the first place, the cost should be reduced 10%. 268,263-26,826= 241,437 price and rounding down is 241,400 price and cost is 120,700. I think that is far more reasonable. What do you think?

    Debby
    Sounds reasonable to me, but Squish seems to disagree. Sorry this "price" thing is turning out to be so contentious, guys!

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    I continue to think vortex is not a valid spell for this situation. Whatever body of water you would want to use it on needs to be like 50 feet deep, which is just not gonna happen on any river I've ever seen.
    What if we kept using vortex as the spell required for its construction, but since we're reducing the size of the area-of-effect by ~50%, so maybe we cut the spell level in half, so simulate its reduced effect? It wouldn't follow the rules-as-written, but I think it'd be a useful approximation.

    Also, the "3/day" thing is not set in stone, it's just a number I pulled out of the air, and seemed reasonably useful.

    In answer to your earlier question about the juxtaposition of friendly otters and a destructive vortex, Debby: it wasn't really so much about a thematic match between otters and whirlpools, as it was that it was the first paddle I thought of. I was canoeing down the Huron River one weekend, when I noticed that my paddle created little "cyclones" in the water. Being a huge nerd, my first thought was "Man, if I were playing a D&D campaign, I'd really want a way to amplify that effect." And so the idea for the very first enchanted paddle was born.

    Though now that I think about it, otters are renowned for their speed in the water, and vortexes (vortices?) are very fast-moving water features. Maybe the paddle could be re-fluffed to produce a series of water-spirits in the form of otters, who swim rapidly in a spiral to create a whirlpool. If you think that'd link them in a more thematic way, that is. Then again, that would change it to a conjuration effect, which would be a different spell entirely (one which we'd have to make up), making it even harder to settle on a price. So maybe it's OK as it is.

    Is a wondrous item's CL assumed to be the minimum CL necessary to cast the spell(s) it imitates?

    Paddle of the Kingfisher: Squish, you mentioned the idea that this one would allow the wielder to ignore cover provided by water when attacking. Were you thinking that it would do this in addition to the aforementioned "see through water" ability", or instead of it?

    Paddle of the Salmon: What if we made this one grant the wielder and his canoe freedom of movement? The spell description says that it "enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement", which I feel would cover swift current, grapple attempts by underwater monsters, and extremely dense vegetation. (What I'd really like for this paddle to do is allow you to physically propel your canoe to leap up a waterfall, but I feel like that's a totally new spell, which I'm just gonna have to design myself. So this'll do for now.)

    Paddle of the Catfish: granting blindsense while underwater makes good sense, I'll admit, but players are only going to spend a few rounds underwater at a time (or ideally, none at all), so the paddle's utility would be severely limited. What if as long as you're within 5 feet of any body of water, it allowed you to sense what's under the water within 100 feet of you (perhaps a minor divination effect?), including monsters, solid objects, swimmers, and even how deep the water is. If we do this, it might overlap a lot with Paddle of the Kingfisher, but then again I never really liked that one as much as the others. I'd be OK with cutting it from the list.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Paddle of the Catfish: granting blindsense while underwater makes good sense, I'll admit, but players are only going to spend a few rounds underwater at a time (or ideally, none at all), so the paddle's utility would be severely limited. What if as long as you're within 5 feet of any body of water, it allowed you to sense what's under the water within 100 feet of you (perhaps a minor divination effect?), including monsters, solid objects, swimmers, and even how deep the water is. If we do this, it might overlap a lot with Paddle of the Kingfisher, but then again I never really liked that one as much as the others. I'd be OK with cutting it from the list.
    I would think it would give blindsense to a body of water the paddle is in contact with, allowing the wielder to sense where objects are in the body of water enough to avoid hazards and find hidden wrecks. The Kingfisher one could be neat if it allows one to ignore cove by water and protection by water and that the paddle could function like a spear to jab at underwater things. So the Kingfisher is an offense paddle, while the catfish makes a easy navigation paddle.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Magic Paddles
    Honestly, I think it would be easiest if you would be so kind as to allow me to edit them as I move them to the first post. No disrespect to your efforts, I love what you have so far, but I could get them to playable by the end of the day, rather than having the discussion drag out for another week.

    Here's something that occurs to me. Since paddles are now written up as weapons, should these be treated as specific magic weapons? Should I just write them as +1 weapons, or make the special qualities into paddle-only enchantments, so they could be applied to different kinds of paddles?

    Otter
    The thing is, while the item does create a vortex, it is pretty much completely unrelated to the vortex spell at this point. the vortex spell creates a 30 ft wide, 50 ft deep vortex, whereas this one if 5x5. That vortex deals damage to people and boats, this one just keeps them trapped (unless they're in the presence of some other hazard). Vortex is a 7th level spell, while I would hesitate to say this is worth anything more than, say, 2nd or 3rd level.

    Kingfisher
    As mentioned above, there is no mechanical effect to your see through water ability. The negate-cover ability would be sort of rolled into it.

    Salmon
    Did you see my proposed version written above?
    Freedom of movement would cover the grapple attempts, but I don't think we have any rules regarding heavy seaweed and such, and while freedom of movement allows you to avoid movement-impairing effects, I don't think it protects you from effects that would move you, such as gust of wind or a strong current.

    Catfish
    It wouldn't be blindsense while YOU were underwater, just the paddle. Basically like mith said, in that you would have blindsense that only works under the surface of whatever body of water the paddle was in contact with.

    Rapids

    Disorientation
    I agree this would probably be the most dangerous part of the rapids, though exactly how it can be described is a challenge.
    Should it be a controllable chance, in that you roll some sort of skill, with more experienced individuals being more likely to avoid it, or is it inherently chaotic and should just be a percentage roll of some sort? Maybe it's a reflex save? I think we want to keep it down to one, maybe two rolls a turn, any more than that is getting needlessly complex and slows the game.

    Damage
    I think that's probably too low, we want something that will potentially seriously damage the canoe.
    How about 2d6 damage for shallow rapids, 4d6 for swift rapids, and 6d6 for dangerous rapids. A successful save/check turns the damage into nonlethal damage.

    Overall
    Hmm. To be full representational, I would say it's a reflex save to reduce the damage to nonlethal, and if you succeed on the check, you can make a str check to hold onto a rock or something. You have to reroll the str check each round to maintain your hold, and can attempt a swim check to move around in the rapids, but if you fail, you're right back into the current where you started.
    However, that's three distinct DCs in each entry, and it is a little complicated. I'm not sure how to simplify it, though.
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Eh, I guess you can go ahead and finish em off, Squish. I kind of stubbornly wanted to do them all myself, but then I realized that with all the help I've already gotten from you and Debihuman, they're already a collaborative effort. So go ahead and take em. Jus make sure to keep the image, so players have an idea what they look like.

    Can I still have credit for their inception, since their inclusion was my idea to begin with?

    P.S. the disorientation should be inherently chaotic. I'd go with a percentage roll, because experience can't really protect you from the river's fury, no matter how good a swimmer you are.

    Other than that, I think I like your upped damage from rocks better, and the Str check to hang onto a boulder. Everything else looks fine.
    Last edited by SuperDave; 2014-08-22 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Okay, I just added a big ol' thing about the effects of being in the rapids, with numbers and everything. Whether those are appropriate numbers remains to be seen, but hey, they're there now. i hope it's not too complicated. But I think I will probably have to come back to it with various 'what ifs' and foolproof it.

    And I'm starting to edit the paddles, thank you for your brave sacrifice, dear brother.
    I'm still not sure if they should be enchantments that you apply to paddles, like keen, or if they should be unique paddles.
    By the way bro, you have any ideas relating to double paddles? I haven't really had time to think on it, but I suspect there are some unique concepts that could be worked with. Maybe a sisiutl paddle with two heads?
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    Default Re: Canoeing [New use of Swim][Crossroads]

    Enchantments vs. Unique Objects
    I had initially envisioned these as unique objects, but I could also see them as being commonplace permanent enchantments which are added to mundane paddles. I could also see them going by different names in different regions (for example, "Paddle of the Catfish" becomes "Paddle of the Sturgeon" in the Great Lakes region)

    Paddle of the Sisiutl
    A sisiutl paddle, eh? Hmm, that's a tricky one. Maybe it grants you the ability to command, calm, or speak with aquatic creatures? Gives you a bonus to handling canoes on oceans and other bodies of salt-water? Bonus to Diplomacy and leadership checks? I don't really think that size-changing or a gaze attack are really appropriate here...

    Oh man, I never even considered paddles based on magical beasts! This opens up a whole new frontier in the enchanted watercraft-propellants industry!

    Disorientation
    Under "Disorientation" you wrote "25% (20?)". What does the number in parentheses mean? Is that the DC to overcome the disorientation?

    Overland Movement
    A thought occurs: we really should have some kind of overland travel mechanic to simplify long-distance canoe trips. We should probably include the watercraft equivalents of walking, hustling, and running, any maybe forced march, too. Any modifiers for heavy loads should probably be reduced from whatever they are for overland travel, since it's much easier to move extremely heavy loads by water.

    Here's my basic idea for how it would work: you figure out whether you're going upstream or down, how fast the river is moving or how flooded it is, and then make a single Swim check which represents X hours of travel. Once the players reach a hazard, like rapids or a waterfall, they'd have to decide whether they want to portage or shoot the rapids, and then you roll for the result (Is any cargo lost/damaged/wet? Is the canoe damaged, and how badly? Does anyone go overboard and get swept downstream?)

    Portaging
    Oh, and I guess we should probably also include something about portaging, huh? This article says "It takes, on average, twenty minutes to portage 1000 meters (2000 yards)," but their math is off: 1000 meters is 1093.61 yards, or 0.6213 miles. By my calculations, the average portage moves at about 1.8639 mph, but as the article points out, "each trail has some painful characteristics: slippery rocks, steep inclines, bug-infested hollows, boot-sucking mud, and wrong turns."
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