Book Club in the Playground: DUNE

[Artemis97]

Ladies and gentlemen it is time for a new installment of the Giant in the Playground Book Club! Using the results of our first round of voting, we've discovered that the next most popular book is Frank Herbert's DUNE, the epic sci-fi tale of scheming nobles fighting for control of the desert planet Arrakis, also known as Dune, the sole source in the universe of the substance Malange, or Spice, a key ingredient for long distance space travel. Herbert weaves a rich world, with much hinted at beyond the scope of the novel. Please join us in reading it!

We will start the discussion next Wednesday, August 13th, to give everyone time to get a copy of the book. Also, this time, we will be going through the book at a slightly faster rate than we did before. I'm thinking 3 chapters at a time. As usual, anyone may post a description of the set of chapters we're currently on, and then the discussion can flow! Once the discussion of each part dies down, we'll move onto the next one.

Happy reading everyone!

Spoiler: Previous Books

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1. Shades of Milk and Honey

[happyturtle]

As I said in the last thread, I am not a fan, so I'll be providing the contrary opinion.

Though one advantage of this book is that any used book store with a good sized science fiction setting is likely to have a few copies of Dune rattling around, and libraries will almost certainly have it. So hopefully it will be easy for everyone to acquire.

[Math_Mage]

Rereaders welcome, right?

[happyturtle]

Absolutely! Just mind the spoilers for new readers.

[Math_Mage]

HAY GAIS IT WAS HIS SLED THAT KILLED DUMBLEDORE IN A DREAM ABOUT JON SNOW WHO WAS A GHOST THE WHOLE TIME ON EARTH

okay that's out of my system

[happyturtle]

"No, Dune. I am your father."

[IthilanorStPete]

Read it a million times, I'll definitely be joining in the discussion. I like the book, I think it's a landmark in the genre, but it definitely has its flaws.

[Morty]

I read it a long time ago, but I have a weirdly good memory for books, so perhaps I'll be able to contribute to the discussion even if I don't re-read it now.

[turkishproverb]

I love how terrified people are of this book just because the original hardcover could eat a horse.

[happyturtle]

I found Dune to download for £2.99 on both Amazon uk and Kobo books. I got a few pages into it last night and already found things to bash, so this should be fun.

[Artemis97]

Already?! =P

I am, meanwhile, working through one of the prequels his son wrote, waiting to start Dune proper next week. I happen to like them, though my opinion seems to be in the minority. Just for fun, have anyone else read them? What's your opinions?

And I guess we should keep possible spoilers to a minimum. Even if they are prequels...

[turkishproverb]

Eh, the stuff written after Herbert's death is massively contradictory to the books he wrote, particularly the first, anyway.

[Artemis97]

Having not read the original Dune book since high school, I may not have noticed the contradictions. I just recall the later books getting weird. I'll have to look for those contradictions as we read.

[Kitten Champion]

I actually played the Dune RTS game, which was like Command and Conquer but with Dune. I've seen the David Lynch Dune movie as well, which was a tragedy all around since David Lynch didn't get to do the Return of the Jedi which clearly was in desperate need for more WTF and Patrick Stewart.

...but I haven't read the book, and well, why not?

[happyturtle]

Hey guys? I don't know if it's just the formatting in my copy of the ebook (from Kobo books) or if it's like that in the original, but I don't have any chapter breaks. If Herbert didn't actually put any in, I guess we'll have to wing it on discussion blocks.

[Math_Mage]

Hey guys? I don't know if it's just the formatting in my copy of the ebook (from Kobo books) or if it's like that in the original, but I don't have any chapter breaks. If Herbert didn't actually put any in, I guess we'll have to wing it on discussion blocks.

There are definitely chapter breaks.

[IthilanorStPete]

Hey guys? I don't know if it's just the formatting in my copy of the ebook (from Kobo books) or if it's like that in the original, but I don't have any chapter breaks. If Herbert didn't actually put any in, I guess we'll have to wing it on discussion blocks.

They're not numbered, but each epigram marks a new chapter.

[GloatingSwine]

"No, Dune. I am your father."

Read far enough into the series and that is a spoiler!

[happyturtle]

Chapters 1-3
Overview

Each chapter has a header quote by Princess Irulan.
Also, I'm narrating these chapters in the style of Ovid of Myths Retold.

Chapter 1: Muad'Dib belongs on Arrakis

The Duke of Atreides and his family live on Caladan.
But forget that place, because they're all packing up to move to Arrakis.
The Duke's son is named Paul.
His mother Jessica lets a creepy old woman spy on him in bed,
Even though he's 15 and might have been jerking off.
But he wasn't, because he's special. He has super powers to put himself in a trance.
And super powers to have magic dreams. And super powers that make him a lie detector.
The old woman puts Paul's hand in a box full of pain.
And if he takes his hand out, she'll stab him with poison.
He thinks his hand is on fire, but he keeps it there.
And the witch says "Congratulations, you're human.
If you were an animal, you'd have died.
But humans can ignore all pain. At least the ones who have superpowers.
Oh, and you might be the Kwitzach Haderach."

See, Jessica and the witch are both Bene Gesserit.
Which are women with superpowers.
And they want a boy Bene Gesserit,
Who would be called the Kwitzach Haderach.
Though Boy Gesserit would sound more like a superhero name.
And Boy Gesserit would be more superpowerfully than the Girl Gesserits.
But every boy who tried the test is dead.

Chapter 2: The bad guys are the Harkonnens

On Planet Harkonnen, there's an evil Baron.
Which is so far below a Duke's rank that he ought to be polishing Duke Atreides's shoes.
But instead, he's plotting the Duke's doom.
Baron is fat and gay.
Make sure you remember that, because it's going to be repeated a lot.
"Bwahaha! I'm so evil! Why don't I have a white cat to stroke?
The Atreides are my enemies, and I shall destroy them."
He talks about his evil plan a lot with his evil advisor and evil nephew.
Baron Harkonnen used to rule Arrakis. But now Duke Atreides will go there.
And then the Baron will go back and attack him and kill him.
Because it's easier to kill him on Arrakis than where he is now.
Oh and there are other people mentioned, but it gets all a bit confusing.
But remember, the Baron is fat.

Chapter 3: "Reverend Mothers need to be sexy until they're old and cunning."

There's a big argument between the Reverend Mother and Jessica.
Because Jessica had a son when she was ordered to only have daughters.
It seems a little late to fight about that, but they do anyway.
Then Paul comes in and there's more talk about the Kwitzach Haderach business.
And seeing visions of the future.
And the witch says "BTW, your father's doomed.
Doomity doomed doomed. Nothing we can do.
Try not to die too."


Comments

The thing I hated most about this section was the fat-shaming and homophobia. It's clearly meant to mark the Baron out as particularly evil and repulsive. Of course he is evil and repulsive, but that could have been portrayed without using the shortcut of mocking him for being fat and gay. And it goes on the whole book. Virtuous people are physically fit. If you try to do something physically difficult and succeed, it proves your virtue further. This is no universe for the disabled. Or even the ordinary person who reaches middle age and puts on some fat along the way.

Then there is the prophecy stuff. It's a Reese's moment: You got your fantasy in my science fiction story! The whole idea that if you take the right drugs, you can see along your genetic past and future just strikes me as silly.

Despite the things I didn't like, the narrative is compelling, sweeping the reader along, flinging details and names out, and yet keeping the tension of the story. You want there to be a way to save Duke Leto. You dread what the agent, Dr Yueh, might do. You wonder what secret lessons Jessica has been given Paul, and whether they will be enough. And you can't wait to see Arrakis.

[Artemis97]

Oh my goodness. I pop in here to apologize for a delay because I've misplaced my copy of the book and find that ^. I'm laughing, oh I really don't know what to say about it. I have no response. That's just... hehehe.

[IthilanorStPete]

Nice summary.

Agreed on all counts on the bigotry. Interestingly, I didn't pick up on the Baron's orientation when I first read the book. Looking back, it's not terribly subtle. As for fitness, not that it cancels out anything, but Feyd-Rautha is definitely a fit, muscular guy (he gets described in quite a bit of detail later, if memory serves) that's assuredly not virtuous. I'm surprised you didn't mention the gender essentialism going on with the Bene Gesserit and Kwisatz Haderach, though it hasn't really picked up yet.

Buckle in for the fantasy elements; they don't go away. I think it's a product of the times; you see references to psychic stuff a fair bit in Golden Age/New Wave SF.

The narrative, especially the worldbuilding, is strong. The world of Dune is what makes the book so memorable, really; Arrakis itself, of course, but the entire pseduo-feudal future it depicts, with all the weirdness of Mentats and the Bene Gesserit and the Guild. In contrast, the prose itself isn't great, especially at first. There's a lot of infodumping. The whole first scene with the Baron is a textbook example of the "As you know" style of exposition; Reverend Mother Mohiam and Jessica's conversation has a bit of that as well.

[Inigo Montoya]

Oh goodie! We've started!
Three points to make before I begin. First, I'm going to have two thoughts. The stuff in the spoiler tags are for people who have already read the book. If this is your first time reading it DO NOT OPEN THE SPOILERS. Seriously. This is for your own good.
Secondly, I have the audio book version of this, so my post will be a bit rambling as I make notes as I listen to it.
Third, I am a huge fan of the book, so my bias may shine through a bit. If I seem completely off or I don't understand a point you're trying to make, let me know.

Chapter 1:

Spoiler: Don't read if you haven't read the book

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First thought, I really love how the epigraphs let you meet the Princess and have some idea of her character before hand.

The book starts almost like a fantasy. This talk of a castle, there's almost no suggestions of sci-fi. And the Reverend Mother is shown to be...not a character to trust, right from the start. His mother shows her all deference but is that really a reason to trust her?

I agree with IthilanorStPete, there is a lot of infodumping. I'm going to start making a running list. First info dump: Paul and the basic plot of the story (Hey, there's a planet called dune! We are going there! It might be a trap!)

Another thing I like is the repetition with Paul, as he speaks of the planet. "Arakis. Dune. Desert Planet" I don't know why, that just...appeals to me.

Seeing as I have an audiobook, I was /so/ excited when I got I my hands on a physical copy for the first time and realized that there was a glossery. Because holy wow do they throw a /lot/ of terms at you all at once. Also, yay for the first mention of the fremen, God help you poor people. You're just going to end up pawns in some other person's game soon enough.

Spoiler: Don't Read if you haven't read the book

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That part of the book I find most fascenating and disturbing. It's a book about politics, and exploiting people to your own ends. Never once does Paul question the system he's been thrown into. It is his /right/ to rule these people. He may the rule them justly, but he /will/ rule them.

Being concious by choice...The bene geserit are fascinating. The dichotomy between their religious aspects (which in of itself has a dichotomy, Man/Animal) and it's true purpose, which is just selective breeding. (Another slightly uncomfortable aspect.)

Listening to the 'conscious by choice' thing, it rings heavily of eastern teachings. "All things, cells, beings, are impermanent, strive for permanence." It's a mantra. He's meditating.

When Paul meets the Reverend Mother, you can see the politics already in play.

Spoiler: Don't read if you haven't read the book

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I love how the book start mention now that the Barron is Paul's grandfather. Super creepy.

The Reverend Mother can't help but think of Paul in terms of breeding and his place. She's completely thrown by him, and it pisses her off.

THE VOICE! SUPER POWERS!

The Gom Jabbar is one of my favorite things in the book. The scene's tension is perfect and it introduces the litany against fear, which will become an important aspect of the story for the first half.

I always wonder how that green box works. Does it grab hold of his fingers?

Another thing I like is the fact that the Gom Jabbar is the poison, not the box itself.

The duke will mention it again, but imagine what sort of political hellhole these people must live in if they have different words not just for the poisons, but how it's administered.

OH MY GOSH THE LITANY AGAINST FEAR IS SO GOOD.

Again, the dichotomy between man and animal.

"Ever sift sand through a screen?" I remember reading somewhere that the question she asks him is basically a koan. The book bares this out.

"I both and love and hate you." Another example of dichotomy.

Jessica really gets a short shrift in these early chapters. She doesn't really come into her own till later.

First mentioning of Paul's 'terrible purpose'.

His truth sense is never really used as much as it should be. It's like a video game skill you only remember half the time.

Info dump 2: Backstory, Bene geserit and the spacing guild.

Even Paul thinks the bene geserit breeding programs are full of BS. Granted, he thinks that for a different reason.

One of kookier things about the book (but one I still love) is Frank Herbert's vision of the future. Apparently in this far future feudal society everyone's three sheets to the wind all the time.

Speaking of dichotomy, I notice that there is another one. Between the reverend mothers looking only into their maternal genetic memory, and the Kwisatz Haderach who will be able to look into masculine memory.

Chapter 2 to come later!

[turkishproverb]

My but I never know where to begin responding to long posts. I just began my own re-read and still find the first paragraph, a fictitious citation, interesting, both for the way it remind me of discussion of Lawrence of Arabia, and the way it reads like a less than subtly-biased textbook.

[Seerow]

Oh man I wish I had known this was going to happen like 2-3 months ago. I have been sitting on Dune for literally two years, and just sat down and read it at the start of Summer. I would have held on to it for a group read along if I'd known.

Oh well, I'll be following along the thread. Enjoy!

[Kitten Champion]

I'm a bit miffed about these opening chapters.

The first one was okay, but I have the strong sense that "Paul acts morally superior to shrewish supercilious women" is going to be a thing, and that was not exactly my favourite part of Wheel of Time. Although Rand going gradually insane and some of the Aes Sedai being depicted as being in the right and reasonable took the edge off that as time went by. I'm also not fond of implications that humans aren't animals, I get the general connotation behind the dichotomy but I personally still find it troubling when we remove ourselves from our nature on an ideological level. I'm also not fond of the "is he the Kwitzach Haderach?" question... because of course he is. This has the same level of dramatic uncertainty as the Matrix gave us when questioning whether Neo was the Saviour. We can marvel as he fulfills all the vaguely worded prophecies!

The second chapter was pretty terrible. Happyturtle explained why, but to me it really felt like being dipped in oil, just unsavoury all around. Aside from that, it's the villain discussing his plans, which isn't not something I'm exactly a fan of. It's rather hokey.

As to the third chapter, it's good that we're getting insight into the bene gesserit and into the main players of the setting. Certainly the best chapter thus far. The world is interesting, I'm not just sure about the characters which inhabit it.

This all feels kinda Lensmen-esque to me.

[happyturtle]

My but I never know where to begin responding to long posts. I just began my own re-read and still find the first paragraph, a fictitious citation, interesting, both for the way it remind me of discussion of Lawrence of Arabia, and the way it reads like a less than subtly-biased textbook.

Just begin however you like. Say what you liked or didn't like about the chapters or the characters or anything. Critique my glib overview. Agree or disagree with others. Irulan may say the beginning is a delicate time, but that doesn't hold true for forum discussions.

Oh man I wish I had known this was going to happen like 2-3 months ago. I have been sitting on Dune for literally two years, and just sat down and read it at the start of Summer. I would have held on to it for a group read along if I'd known.

Oh well, I'll be following along the thread. Enjoy!

Few of us are reading it for the first time, so don't be a lurker. Jump in with your own thoughts!

[yoshi67]

I actually like the way the book starts throwing stuff at you like you know what the terms and people are. It immerses me and makes it feel like an actual place that I just found out about but others already know. I think it might be important to remember it was written in the 60s. Homophobia was pretty real then and he was definitely painting a big ole EVIL sign on the baron. Doesn't make it right though.

[turkishproverb]

I actually like the way the book starts throwing stuff at you like you know what the terms and people are. It immerses me and makes it feel like an actual place that I just found out about but others already know. I think it might be important to remember it was written in the 60s. Homophobia was pretty real then and he was definitely painting a big ole EVIL sign on the baron. Doesn't make it right though.

I actually felt that the choice of viewpoint characters was excellent in that regard. Everything is stated matter-of factually, but the person experiencing the events tends to be unfamiliar enough with the setting to allow exposition to flow naturally.

Just begin however you like. Say what you liked or didn't like about the chapters or the characters or anything. Critique my glib overview. Agree or disagree with others. Irulan may say the beginning is a delicate time, but that doesn't hold true for forum discussions.

Ok, well this replies to a couple people, but still:

As to the homophobia, I am admittedly not very far on my re-read, but so far I have found the contempt being as much toward everything about Harkonnen, rather than anything that makes that particular trait look like it's an example of why to dislike him. Then again, as I said it has been a while since I read the book, and I'm not very far (only a bit over 50 pages so far) on the re-read.

On the topic of rank differences (baron evidently being higher than Duke), I actually didn't mind that. I've always liked the use of ranks that don't quite match the real world as an illustrator of a different reality, yet still using terms known to the audience to breed a degree of familiarity. Further, Herbert was american, and "Baron" seems to have more negative subtext than "duke" in the U.S.A.

[happyturtle]

Overview

Chapter 4: Muad'Dib had no friends

Paul has no friends except his teachers.
Three of them are bodyguards of different flavours.
And I can't tell them apart.
So they are all Duncan Idaho here.
Because that name makes me giggle the most.
Paul is also friends with Dr Yueh,
The dude who is about to betray him.
Personally, I would rate that dude as an acquaintance at best.
Or maybe friends-with-detriments.

So Duncan Idaho catches Paul sitting with his back to a door.
And makes him sit in the naughty corner or something.
He says that Arrakis is so dry
That you have to wear special stillsuits.
Which let you drink your pee and sweat.
It's part of the Circle of Life, you see.
"Water's precious there," says Paul.
Which to Duncan Idaho is proof that Paul is smart.
Paul asks why they don't get weather control.
Duncan says they could
If Duke Atreides was rich.
Spoiler - he's not.
Even though he owns a whole planet.
It starts raining, and Paul says, "Water."
MAN DOES HE EVER STOP WITH THE GENIUS?!

Then we get a flashback
Back to the Reverend Mother.
She reminds Paul that Arrakis is dry.
And reminds him that his father is doomed.

Then another Duncan Idaho comes in.
This one plays music.
And fights with Paul.
And remembers being a slave to the Harkonnens.

Chapter 5: Dr Yueh = Traitor

Paul is laying face down on a table
When Dr Yueh comes in.
This is probably worse than having your back to a door.
But Dr Yueh just gives him homework
And thinks about how sad it is that he has to betray Paul
So he gives Paul a fancy space bible.

Chapter 6: Like father like son

Duke Atreides comes to meet with Paul.
To tell him Arrakis is dangerous.
And that Itsatrap.jpg.
And probably that water is important.

Arrakis is the only planet with Spice.
Spice is super valuable.
And gives people long lives.
Because if there's one thing the universe needs.
It's more old, rich men.

Duke Atreides has a plan though
He sent another Duncan Idaho to Arrakis
To recruit the Fremen as soldiers
Oh rite, the Fremen are the Noble Savages of Arrakis
I probably should have said this before.

And because Paul is not special enough
With his superpowers,
And the Boy Gesserit business,
And his ability to recognize water,
Dad tells him he's a Mentat.
Which basically means he can be a Duncan Idaho when he grows up.


Comments

This section was a bit weak, with more "As you know, Bob..." exposition. And someone's going to probably be indignant that I can't tell Gurney, Thufir, and Duncan apart, but really. I can't. And there is way too much "Oooh, Paul is so special!" going on here, when he didn't do anything particularly special in these chapters. Except recognize that water is valuable on a desert planet.

[Artemis97]

Having finally found a copy of the book I can read, I'm going to address both sections we've gone over so far.

In rereading all this, I'm definitely getting the sense that Paul is special, too special, overly special. He's the Kwizats Haderach, he's got truth sense, he's a good swordsman, he's super observant, he's a mentat, oh and he's the heir to the Duke and potentially the ruler of the most important planet in the known universe, because everyone's dependant on Spice. Oh Spice, without which the spacing guild couldn't navigate, and the nobility of the universe couldn't stay young and beautiful for far longer than they should.

The second shapter, with the Harkonnens was definitely a "look how evil we are! muahaha!" thing. The Baron's fat and greedy and creepy, and that homophobia y'all are seeing, I'm thinking it's actually that he's a pedophile, which we can all agree is just vile. He keeps calling his nephew 'my darling' which is a bit too familiar, so perhaps some incest here too? And Feyd's fairly young, as well. Not to mention he comments on Paul, who's only 15! So, yes, Evil Baron is Evil. His Nephew Feyd comes off as... bored and probably spoiled. Even as The Baron and Piter are explaining their scheme, it's like he's not interested, or he is as he mentions being glad that the Baron is letting him in on the plans, but Feyd doesn't quite grasp all the subtleties. And then there's Piter. Creepy, drug addicted, sadistic. He's a tool and a weapon and the Baron uses him to cause pain and cruelty to others. And what does Piter want out of this? Other than the Spice he's already addicted to, he wants Lady Jessica, the Duke's wife, for who knows what. Whatever it is, you know she's not going to be into it, so... man, I think Piter might be worse than the Baron, I'm not sure.

And reading these six chapters. Everyone seems to know what the big plans are to bring down the Duke, up to and including the Duke himself, and yet they're still going to Arrakis. It's finally explained why in the last chapter, there. They see the trap and know it's coming and can't ignore the Emperor's order for them to rule there. They're making the best plans they can to defend themselves, but it all seems to hang on befriending the Fremen and using them against the Emperor's shock troops. But they're only just making contact via Duncan Idaho? (Silly name, I agree, good choice Happy, seeing them all as him, even though he's yet to make an appearance, but having read the later books makes it even funnier.)

Though we don't get to see much from her point of view, I almost feel sorry for the Lady Jessica. She's doing the best she can for her lover and her son. She disobeyed orders and gave the Duke a son because he wanted an heir, not the daughters she was supposed to bear him. It's strange too that the Emperor has only been given daughters as well. I highly suspect Bene Gesserit involvement there. Anyways, Jessica is doing everything she can to protect her son and the Duke, out of love for them both, but the Reverend Mother tells her the Duke is doomed, and possibly Paul along with him. Jessica hears this and knows it to be true, but you know she's still going to fight tooth and nail for them both. She loves them. Reminds me a lot of Catelyn Stark, actually, from A Game of Thrones.

hmm... gonna talk about Dr. Yueh might drift into spoilers for later chapters, so I'll stick them in a tag, but for now! We know he's the one who's going to betray the Duke and his family. He's above suspicion because of the conditioning and training he has, but the evil Baron has somehow found a way to convince him to break his oaths and possible psychic whim-whamming to betray people he cares about. He's not an assassin or a murderer. He feels guilty about what he's going to do. He gives Paul the fancy Bible out of concern for the boy's soul. Paul might die, but maybe he'll find the peace Yueh knows he won't have for himself. The bit about the second passage is a bit strange, where Paul finds the shallower mark on the book. Dr. Yueh tells him very specifically what passage he's looking for, but Paul reads this other one instead, not remarking that "oh this is the wrong one. Did I do it wrong? How do I use this complicated and delicate thing anyways?" and then Yueh jumps down his throat, getting angry at the reminder of his dead wife.

Spoiler time!

Spoiler: More on Dr. Yueh's Motivations

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I repeat his DEAD wife. As in gone, can't come back. She is no more. In later chapters we find that the lever the Baron has over Dr. Yueh is his dead wife's corpse. Now, the potential desecration of a loved one is a terrible thing, but is it worse than killing the family you care about and care for as a teacher and a doctor? Is it really enough to make you break your conditioning and betray them? What happened to the Hippocratic Oath in the far future? Aren't doctor's still held to the belief that they should do no harm? But no, my wife's corpse, her physical lifeless form (which he should be especially aware of as a medical professional) might come to harm. Let me betray everything I should believe in as a doctor and the people I care about and endanger countless lives and potentially cause a war for a corpse. Unless he's got some grand plan to revive her (though I don't recall that he does) then.... I don't know. Dr. Yueh's a necrophilliac.