Want to get back into Marvel comics

[Shinken]

Quesada you're not fooling anybody with that disguise!

Quesada has not been chief editor for years now. It's Axel Alonso who is running the show.

[Anteros]

That's why they made a fake.

Wait, then who was the guy in the trench coat that went and got the real hammer out of the crater? It was never made explicit and fake Thor showed up right after, so I just assumed it was him. The end of Civil War was so bad that I stopped reading and must have missed the followup.

And yes, it was a fake hammer, since I seem to recall at the last battle, the one the writers had to totally forget every scrap of Captain America's Canon in the biggest chunk of Bull crap Deus Ex Machina garbage Butt Pulls I'd ever seen at the time, that Hercules took it from the clone and beat the clone to death with it in a fury because of it being an impersonation of a dead friend of his.

I just assumed Hercules was worthy to wield the thing since he's supposed to be the actual Greek demigod and stuff.

You realize you're dismissing forty years of comics because of one issue?

It's one issue that literally erased every single plot point that took place before it, and heavily influenced every single plot point that came after.

When you're thinking of heroes people care about...people care about Iron Man. They care about Thor. They care about Batman and Superman...and they care about Peter Parker. He's the one with real world problems. He's not some icon, or symbol of the greater good. He's a real person. A kid, who learned some tough lessons about responsibility who always tries to do his best. He's the one character we're supposed to relate to the most as a human being.

There's nothing relatable for me in a story about a terrible person who sold his marriage to the devil, even if the writers go back to pretending he's a good person afterwards.

[Reverent-One]

Wait, then who was the guy in the trench coat that went and got the real hammer out of the crater? It was never made explicit and fake Thor showed up right after, so I just assumed it was him. The end of Civil War was so bad that I stopped reading and must have missed the followup.

It's been a while since I read it, but didn't the real Thor come back from Ragnarok around the same time/right after? I think that kickstarted Thor's return. I believe the guy had the initial's "D.B." on him somewhere, indicating that it was Donald Blake.

[Shinken]

It's one issue that literally erased every single plot point that took place before it, and heavily influenced every single plot point that came after.

It really didn't.

It's been a while since I read it, but didn't the real Thor come back from Ragnarok around the same time/right after? I think that kickstarted Thor's return. I believe the guy had the initial's "D.B." on him somewhere, indicating that it was Donald Blake.

That's correct. Donald Blake even gets to play hero (as a doctor) in JMS's run.

[Lord Raziere]

It's one issue that literally erased every single plot point that took place before it, and heavily influenced every single plot point that came after.

When you're thinking of heroes people care about...people care about Iron Man. They care about Thor. They care about Batman and Superman...and they care about Peter Parker. He's the one with real world problems. He's not some icon, or symbol of the greater good. He's a real person. A kid, who learned some tough lessons about responsibility who always tries to do his best. He's the one character we're supposed to relate to the most as a human being.

There's nothing relatable for me in a story about a terrible person who sold his marriage to the devil, even if the writers go back to pretending he's a good person afterwards.

Yeah, If I ever get the reins of Spiderman myself, first thing I'm gonna do is have Spiderman somehow get clues that remind him of the deal, and then because of curiosity he tries to solve the mystery, applying his brain to the problem to solve it like a detective and it somehow leads him to the Devil, and he is like "I remember now. the deal is off, give me back my marriage before I beat it out of you." and the Devil is like "but your Aunt- she will die!" and Peter is like "And? we will all die someday. Death is apart of life. and I was an idiot for not accepting that sooner. I realize now- I need to move on. I just can't keep being guilty about everything and beating myself up over every single bad thing that happens in my life. Thats not healthy. Thats not responsible. Give. Me. It. Back. Before I make you." and then he does so, and Peter is back with Mary Jane and its a joyous reunion, and then it ends with them standing over her grave and Mary Jane assuring him that he made the right choice.

and after that, Peter after thinking about this whole kind of debacle realizes he can't keep juggling this life all the time with his friends and family in danger, and that he needs to ensure the safety of those he loves even when he is not around, decides to join the Avengers, making a deal with Nick Fury to give protection to his family with SHIELD agents so that they can't be used against him and allowing himself to get paid to be a superhero basically by being apart of the Avengers, where he will be doing the most good by working with a team and making sure his loved ones are protected by the highest funded forces around. if that isn't cleaving to "Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" I don't know what does.

You still have Peter Parker, you can still have all his human foibles, but it would show growth, show that he trying to do the best he can with his powers, that and he would get to work with both Tony Stark AND Dr. Banner....but then again this might've already happened, but I still think its a good idea.

[Anteros]

It really didn't.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I'm happy for you that you can still enjoy the character. A lot of people disagree with you.

Yeah, If I ever get the reins of Spiderman myself, first thing I'm gonna do is have Spiderman somehow get clues that remind him of the deal, and then because of curiosity he tries to solve the mystery, applying his brain to the problem to solve it like a detective and it somehow leads him to the Devil, and he is like "I remember now. the deal is off, give me back my marriage before I beat it out of you." and the Devil is like "but your Aunt- she will die!" and Peter is like "And? we will all die someday. Death is apart of life. and I was an idiot for not accepting that sooner. I realize now- I need to move on. I just can't keep being guilty about everything and beating myself up over every single bad thing that happens in my life. Thats not healthy. Thats not responsible. Give. Me. It. Back. Before I make you." and then he does so, and Peter is back with Mary Jane and its a joyous reunion, and then it ends with them standing over her grave and Mary Jane assuring him that he made the right choice.

and after that, Peter after thinking about this whole kind of debacle realizes he can't keep juggling this life all the time with his friends and family in danger, and that he needs to ensure the safety of those he loves even when he is not around, decides to join the Avengers, making a deal with Nick Fury to give protection to his family with SHIELD agents so that they can't be used against him and allowing himself to get paid to be a superhero basically by being apart of the Avengers, where he will be doing the most good by working with a team and making sure his loved ones are protected by the highest funded forces around. if that isn't cleaving to "Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" I don't know what does.

You still have Peter Parker, you can still have all his human foibles, but it would show growth, show that he trying to do the best he can with his powers, that and he would get to work with both Tony Stark AND Dr. Banner....but then again this might've already happened, but I still think its a good idea.

I don't know. This scenario has Peter actively killing his Aunt, which isn't really any better.

I think if I had it to write I would have him get back together with MJ on his own, have Mephisto reveal himself and threaten May if they stay together, and have May herself tell him to go to hell, she made her own choices in life, and her life isn't a bargaining chip for the devil to use. Then you have Peter do the right thing and punch him in the mug. (And team up with Strange or someone to stop Mephisto from actively murdering May. I'm fine if she dies one day, but not due to a deal Spidey makes with the devil.)

[Shinken]

and after that, Peter after thinking about this whole kind of debacle realizes he can't keep juggling this life all the time with his friends and family in danger, and that he needs to ensure the safety of those he loves even when he is not around, decides to join the Avengers, making a deal with Nick Fury to give protection to his family with SHIELD agents so that they can't be used against him and allowing himself to get paid to be a superhero basically by being apart of the Avengers, where he will be doing the most good by working with a team and making sure his loved ones are protected by the highest funded forces around. if that isn't cleaving to "Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" I don't know what does.

Spider-man has been an Avenger since before you were born. Nick Fury has not been director of SHIELD for a good 10 years. You're making it really clear that you didn't read Spider-Man comics even before OMD.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I'm happy for you that you can still enjoy the character. A lot of people disagree with you.

I didn't mean it like that. You said that OMD influences 'everything that came after it' but that's simply not true. After Slott took over, he undid basically everything that storyline did (aside from reviving Harry Osborn, but he was written out of the books anyway). You keep saying it's oh, so terrible that Peter would give up his marriage (a piece of paper - he still lived with MJ for years) for his aunt's life. I'm guessing you can't forgive Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch as well? Are Ray, Blue Devil and Red Devil also irredeemable characters in your eyes? Because what I see is an editorial mandate from someone who didn't know better, a writer that managed to turn it around (for huge critical acclaim and strong sales, I might add) and people who haven't read a Spider-man comic in years claiming the character is ruined forever.

[Clistenes]

Didn't they hook back up around the time the Avengers Broke up in the Avengers: Dissassembled story line?

That was decades after the infamous slap incident and their divorce. Hank Pym has returned to the Avengers and left again like a dozen times and has hooked with Jan again at least twice, and he has never been abusive since that one time he slapped her.

Anyways, the Hank Pym from Dissassembled was a skrull.

[Anteros]

Spider-man has been an Avenger since before you were born. You're making it really clear that you didn't read his comics even before OMD.

They were clearly suggesting he become an official shield agent, revealing his identity to them and going on their payroll. I don't think there's any need for the hostility.

I didn't mean it like that. You said that OMD influences 'everything that came after it' but that's simply not true. After Slott took over, he undid basically everything that storyline did (aside from reviving Harry Osborn, but he was written out of the books anyway). You keep saying it's oh, so terrible that Peter would give up his marriage (a piece of paper - he still lived with MJ for years) for his aunt's life. I'm guessing you can't forgive Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch as well? Are Ray, Blue Devil and Red Devil also irredeemable characters in your eyes? Because what I see is an editorial mandate from someone who didn't know better, a writer that managed to turn it around (for huge critical acclaim and strong sales, I might add) and people who haven't read a Spider-man comic in years claiming the character is ruined forever.

Redemption requires that the character actually be aware of their sins, try to atone, and actively correct what they did wrong. Peter isn't even aware he sold a part of his soul to the devil. It's not impossible to write a redemption story for Peter Parker after OMD...but they have not done so. They would have to somehow restore his memory and have him actually take action to redeem himself. Redemption does not come simply because the new writer pretends he never did anything wrong and he's suddenly a good person again.

[Lord Raziere]

They were clearly suggesting he become an official shield agent, revealing his identity to them and going on their payroll. I don't think there's any need for the hostility.

Yeah, thats what I meant. the only Marvel comics I've really read is like the first couple issues of Ultimate Marvel universe of Avengers, X-Men and Spiderman. I may be interested in the characters, but everyone knows how hard it is to get into the sprawling continuity mess both big companies are.

I'm just sayin': have Peter work on SHIELD full time. he gets to keep doing the superhero thing, his family is better protected, and in his downtime he finally gets to apply his brain to things like he should in SHIELD. guy figured out his spider-web invention and is like, 30 by now. I'm pretty sure they could make use of his smarts somehow when he is not web-slinging around. that seems to be upholding his motto the best.

[Anteros]

The problem is, that while that may make sense for Peter Parker, it would kill a lot of the "down on his luck superhero" stories that they love to use him for. I don't think Peter Parker will ever really "get his act together" long term, because that's a large part of the characters appeal.

[Shinken]

I'm just sayin': have Peter work on SHIELD full time. he gets to keep doing the superhero thing, his family is better protected, and in his downtime he finally gets to apply his brain to things like he should in SHIELD. guy figured out his spider-web invention and is like, 30 by now. I'm pretty sure they could make use of his smarts somehow when he is not web-slinging around. that seems to be upholding his motto the best.

Being a SHIELD agent is against everything Spider-Man stands for. He is mostly a loner and an underdog (which is why it took 20-something years for him to be a reserve Avenger) and being a SHIELD agent removes that aspect of him. Now, he is much more of a team player nowadays (what with being in a dozen Avenger squads), but Peter resents authority. He always did. He doesn't like to take orders. He simply doesn't work as a SHIELD agent.

You seem to think the Avengers work for SHIELD, but that simply does not happen. Every now and then they have had SHIELD liasons and both groups work together at some points, but the organizations are completely separate.

Also, revealing his secret identity is what got May shot to start with. So you can't really have him protect the people he loves by doing that. There is also the fact that Spider-Man is a lot more competent than any at SHIELD. With all their resources, SHIELD still gets their secrets stolen every other week and they can't catch Doctor Octopus by themselves. Peter does all that in his off hours.

Also, Peter Parker has been stuff with his brain for a long, long time. In the 90s, when he quit being Spider-Man, he became a full time scientist. Just before Civil War, he was Tony Stark's protegee. Under Dan Slott, he became a successful inventor in Horizon Labs, creating gadgets that helped him as Spider-Man and were patented for everyday use. Now, he is CEO to Parker Industries.
I recommend you read Dan Slott's Spider-Man. He is doing most of the stuff you wanted to see done and he is doing it well. He even teased having Spider-Man punch Mephisto in the face back when he still used formspring.

Also, Spidey is officially 29.

Also, the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon has him working for SHIELD (as a superhero only). Ultimate Marvel also had Peter training to join SHIELD as a full-fledged agent just before he died and has his female clone becoming a full time SHIELD agent as well. It just does not work with 616 Peter, though, as I said before.

The problem is, that while that may make sense for Peter Parker, it would kill a lot of the "down on his luck superhero" stories that they love to use him for. I don't think Peter Parker will ever really "get his act together" long term, because that's a large part of the characters appeal.

That's exactly what Dan Slott did with him. It turns out you can still suffer from all of the Parker luck even if you have your own company. Or should I say, specially if you run your own company?

[Metahuman1]

Is Peter Married to MJ in Canon again? No? Then there just pretending it never happened. He has done Not a thing to correct what he did. The writers and Editors have done not a thing to correct what he did. And if Quesada's not running the show at Marvel anymore, why the hell is he showing up every time I see a special about super hero's to talk about them as an expert?


And why the hell hasn't what is easily the most reviled story line in Marvel History being totally removed form Canon post haste? (That's right folks, not Hero's Reborn, Not Avengers Arena, Not Civil War, Not Ultimatum, Not the friggen rape of Miss Marvel (Carol Danvers.), Not even freaking Marville, One More Day is the one that has the infamy of being the single most reviled thing Mavel comics has published to date.)


As for One More Day, this is not that hard to Fix. Mephisto Overstepped his bounds offering the deal. It comes to Death's Attention that this is the case. She Grabs that big purple guy that she's got wrapped around her finger, you might know him by the name of Thanos, and they go find Mephisto and run him through a freaking metaphysical wood chipper. So he breaks the deal. Because, however, it's not cool to do this, Death throws Peter a small Boon, making sure he knows that May is in a better place and making sure she get's to say good by and letting him have a chat with Ben and finally getting some closure, and they work it out so that his ID is still secret, as if he never outed himself during Civil War which is what set all the OMD BS into motion.


And now that he's not feeling totally Guilty, He goes to see Tony Stark, and drops a list of the times he (Parker) as done something that has directly saved Starks freaking Bacon. And he tells him in no uncertain Terms Stark is gonna give him a Patent Lawyer who won't screw him. Stark Agree's being that right this minute he's in no position to alienate the other supers (Maybe have like Cap, Thor, Dr. Strange and Banner in on the meeting so Stark Knows there are multiple Heavy Hitters who will wipe him off the face of the earth like an ant if he tries anything.)

From here, two ways you could go. He could patent a half dozen or a dozen or so smallish items that won't really appreciably change life much in the Marvel U form he real world, but will make him a very nice 6-8 figure income with out him having to do anything other then collect the royalty's, or you just have him patent the web fluid which would have massive applications for Medical Science, Construction Industry, Fire Fighters And Law Enforcement (Imagine a weapon that can, with the same distance and precision of a firearm and even better reliability, subdue a crook with out killing them, and subdue crooks with super powers that conventional gunfire would be a waste of effort against. Think about what Security Company's, Law enforcement and Intelligence Agency's, The NSA/Defense Department, The Military, and the Privet Self Defense Market would do for that.) and he becomes a billionaire himself on one patent. Hell, Shield Alone would probably due a lot of good with that Tech and pay through the nose for it if you wanted to go that route and still keep the effects minimal in universe.

Now, that done, he's got Money enough to Live Comfortably and raise a family with out any real fiance worry's, hell, depending on how you play it, he could even Do something to/for the Daily Bugle to make sure the people there who don't deserve to get fired when it stops having those exclusive spiderman pics to publish and it goes out of business as a result to make sure there taken care of and thus he can't be guilty about that, he's freed up time, he's got himself free of the endless guilt trip, almost (still guilty about getting talked into making a deal with the devil that threw MJ under the bus. Getting to that.), he might even be doing things that are saving lives and improving quality of life for people that has nothing to do with the costume. Hell now there's even room for him to have Kids and show fans of the Spider girl Comics that they will get them some day.

From here, let's have something Super Happen to MJ for a bit. The what is not terribly important. All that's important is that good comes out of it and it let's him forgive himself for making the deal cause good came out of it and he had a part in that and he's generally done good for the world and overall, redeemed himself finally, for real this time. And with that, hey, we know the Canon says there suppose to eventually have a kid, let's let MJ finally get pregnant (Yes I know this happened before, it was implied that that got wiped out two in One More Day. And before that when it happend it was the Clone Saga and we all know that prior to one more day THAT was the thing in Spiderman's past everyone wanted to forget ever happened cause it was horrible. And they still want to forget it. And this time at least Marvel Executives and Editors and Writers Agree. ), and have the baby. And so we have Spiderman, A family man doing decent things for the world and who after all the struggle and trials and tribulations proved that it can get better even when it takes a very dark turn. Or even a lot of very dark turns.




Give me something fairly close to this, and make me certain that Quesada isn't working for them any more, and I will buy every Spiderman title from after one more day (when I stopped buying Spiderman Titles.) on. And hell, do those things and throw in a bit someone can show me a scan of in a Captain America Comic or something with someone informing someone else who's been on a mission that there's a bit of good news, the Super Hero Registration Act was fully repealed by Congress and in doing so ensure that the next time the writers/editors/execs at Marvel decide they don't like whomever won and election they can't make that person force numerous supers to be evil again by Signing another executive Order to bring it back, and I'll buy every Marvel Book not Named Avengers Arena or Avengers Vs. X-men since Civil War.

They'd never due it mind you cause it would require them to be competent and give a crap, but the offers there.



Raz: Oh, and if your curious why I didn't make him an avenger, he works well with the group in smaller stents, but he doesn't see eye to eye with them on a lot of things a lot of the time. Occasional Team Ups are good, but he had admitted many times before the Civil War even that he didn't mesh well with them as a permanent member. The writers forgot that around the time Civil War was being built up too. Pity for the writers I didn't.

[Man on Fire]

The most important rule to follow is: Writers not characters.

It's tempting to say "I'm a fan of X character, I read their books", but chances are you're a fan of the way a specific writer portrayed that character, not the character themself. And for a while, if that portrayal was popular, other writers will ape elements of it, but it will fade over time and you'll think "X is crap now".

Buy comics because that writer you like is writing them, then you'll get good comics.

Corrollary to the rule, specific to Marvel: Eventuall Bendis will ruin it.

This owrks only for the characters who already made loads of money, try to apply it to characters who don't and they end with their books cancelled and themselves killed off because editorial thinks they don't sell and nobody cares about them (Avengers Arena is a good example). this way leads to universe becoming poorer and less interesting, as all we are left with are only books about big name characters, because everyone else will be ruined beyond repair (Runaways) or killed (sentinel) by crappy writers. And I don't want to live in that world, the most beautiful parts of Marvel Universe are the C-Lsiter stuff. I've never read Avengers story I liked, 90% of X-men bore me to death, but there are great stories with the likes of Runaways, Young Avengers, New Warriors, Beta Ray Bill, Imperial Guard, Starjammers, Doctor Strange, less known C-listers, characters who still have potential. but nobody will utilize it if people will drop their books because nobody they like is writing them.

Much better approach would be to follow writers and follow character recommendation. I've been big fan of Runaways and I heard BKV wrote Doctor Strange mini. I've read it, loved it and went looking from other well-received Doctor Strange comics. This way I've found wonderful Lee/Ditko tales of good doctor, Roger Stern and Mike Mingola's Triumph & torment, DeMatteis and green's Into Shamballa, Marvel Premiere in which Strange battles Shuma-Gorath and meets God Himself.... I wouldn't ever have discovered these gems if I'd only follow the writer.

Also, some people like to follow the artists as well. For example, many people only picked All-New Ghost Rider because of Tradd Moore's awesome art. I jsut hope some of them will stay once he leaves because this is great book.

[Shinken]

Raz: Oh, and if your curious why I didn't make him an avenger, he works well with the group in smaller stents, but he doesn't see eye to eye with them on a lot of things a lot of the time. Occasional Team Ups are good, but he had admitted many times before the Civil War even that he didn't mesh well with them as a permanent member. The writers forgot that around the time Civil War was being built up too. Pity for the writers I didn't.

Spider-Man has been a core member of the main Avengers team for 2 years when Civil War happened.
Dan Slott did most of what you said would 'fix' OMD. You are the one saying OMD is 'the most reviled' comic Marvel ever did. Marvel uses flexible chronology. They had Frank Castle become an angel and just ignored it. They had Tony Stark become a teenager and just ignored it. They had Captain America lose the supersoldier serum (twice) and just ignored it (now they are going at it for the 3rd time). They had OMD and just ignored it. You are grossly overreacting.

Also, some people like to follow the artists as well. For example, many people only picked All-New Ghost Rider because of Tradd Moore's awesome art. I jsut hope some of them will stay once he leaves because this is great book.

Tell me more about this book, I'm considering picking it up. Is he the host to Zarathos? What happened to Johnny Blaze?

[Metahuman1]

Spider-Man has been a core member of the main Avengers team for 2 years when Civil War happened.
Dan Slott did most of what you said would 'fix' OMD. You are the one saying OMD is 'the most reviled' comic Marvel ever did. Marvel uses flexible chronology. They had Frank Castle become an angel and just ignored it. They had Tony Stark become a teenager and just ignored it. They had Captain America lose the supersoldier serum (twice) and just ignored it (now they are going at it for the 3rd time). They had OMD and just ignored it. You are grossly overreacting.

During which time all there Cosmic everything either died or got busy way far away form earth, and the Avengers Fell Apart and the Hulk Got Busy out in the Middle of no were cause they were setting up so that when Civil War happened, Stark would get the most powerful characters and therefore they could hand him the win. They knew he was gonna win before they knew why they were gonna fight.


And no, no they didn't. He's not with MJ, and everything you've listed is just them trying to sell us "See how much better life is when you sell your marriage to the Devil?! See how well making a deal with the Devil works for you?!".

No. You do not get to profit after you make a deal with the Devil. It was established Canon for decades in the Marvel U and pretty much everywhere else with a very few nitch exceptions (Hello Sandman, nice to see you again.) that this was the case. The fact that he's profiting from the deal as the writers try desperately to sell us that this was a good thing is just pouring and rubbing sulfur into the wounds. I can't believe that this is such a hard thing to grasp.

[Man on Fire]

Tell me more about this book, I'm considering picking it up. Is he the host to Zarathos? What happened to Johnny Blaze?

It's a new character, Johnny is still a GR in Thunderbolts and will guest starr in issue #8. As for ANGR: Robbie Reyes is a latino-American teenager living in East L.A., taking care of his wheelchair-bound brother Gabe. He is very mature and responsible for his age, but living-conditions he and Gabe have to go through are horrible (it is a gang-controlled part of LA) so in desperate attempts he steals a car and tries to win money in a street race. Car turns down to belong to drug dealer, Robbie gets shot, dies and comes back as Ghost Rider. He isn't host of Zarathos, but a spirit named Eli, who so far remained mysterious but seem to not be as smart as he pretends to be (who he is might be explained once Johnny shows up).
It's a really well-crafted book, Felippe Smith has a way of building really likeable character and Moore is god on the artwork. There are many interestign themes going through the book - contrast between Robbie and villainous Doctor Zabo, screwing with reader's first impressions (people we immiediatelly were made to think as bad often get a chance to prove they are much better than we were willing to give to them)

They had Tony Stark become a teenager and just ignored it.

Actually they had that kid be merged with alternate universe adult Tony and then ignored it to pretend it's good old Tony since then.

[Shinken]

And no, no they didn't. He's not with MJ, and everything you've listed is just them trying to sell us "See how much better life is when you sell your marriage to the Devil?! See how well making a deal with the Devil works for you?!".

Him not being with MJ has nothing to do with the Mephisto thing. They still lived together for all those years. MJ broke up with him after that, because she didn't feel safe around him anymore (like she did in the past). She is still his friend and she features prominently in the book, but they are not together. You are acting as if the deal changed all of reality. It really didn't - it just meant that instead of getting married, they moved in together before doing so (which is a lot more sensible, even). The pact wasn't about Peter and MJ's feelings - it was about a worthless piece of paper and a fancy dress.

No. You do not get to profit after you make a deal with the Devil. It was established Canon for decades in the Marvel U and pretty much everywhere else with a very few nitch exceptions (Hello Sandman, nice to see you again.) that this was the case. The fact that he's profiting from the deal as the writers try desperately to sell us that this was a good thing is just pouring and rubbing sulfur into the wounds. I can't believe that this is such a hard thing to grasp.

Well, I can't believe you still don't understand that not having read the last 7 years of Spider-Man comics means you have no freaking idea what's going on. You keep acting like it's all about OMD and saying 'nononono' whenever you tell that it isn't. The point of OMD was to make Peter a down on his luck bachelor with severe mother issues. He is anything but that right now. Dude, that was 7 years ago. Get over it already.

It's a new character, Johnny is still a GR in Thunderbolts and will guest starr in issue #8. As for ANGR: Robbie Reyes is a latino-American teenager living in East L.A., taking care of his wheelchair-bound brother Gabe. He is very mature and responsible for his age, but living-conditions he and Gabe have to go through are horrible (it is a gang-controlled part of LA) so in desperate attempts he steals a car and tries to win money in a street race. Car turns down to belong to drug dealer, Robbie gets shot, dies and comes back as Ghost Rider. He isn't host of Zarathos, but a spirit named Eli, who so far remained mysterious but seem to not be as smart as he pretends to be (who he is might be explained once Johnny shows up).
It's a really well-crafted book, Felippe Smith has a way of building really likeable character and Moore is god on the artwork. There are many interestign themes going through the book - contrast between Robbie and villainous Doctor Zabo, screwing with reader's first impressions (people we immiediatelly were made to think as bad often get a chance to prove they are much better than we were willing to give to them)

I'm sold on it. Gonna buy a few issues in the Marvel app tomorrow so I can read it on the plane going home.

Actually they had that kid be merged with alternate universe adult Tony and then ignored it to pretend it's good old Tony since then.

Yeah, that's what I meant. It's handwaving away a bad story - exactly like OMD.

[TheThan]

This is why I was saying Marvel and DC should just end their current universes and create new ones.

If they could handle a transition smoothly then it solves all of the continuity problems both companies are having by simply having no continuity to begin with. I'm talking about a clean start, starting fresh. Creating a new universe allows the writers to make smarter decisions from the beginning with regards story lines and do a more consistent job of characterizing their characters without trying to explain why the character acted so stupidly or out of character previously.

[Shinken]

This is why I was saying Marvel and DC should just end their current universes and create new ones.

If they could handle a transition smoothly then it solves all of the continuity problems both companies are having by simply having no continuity to begin with. I'm talking about a clean start, starting fresh. Creating a new universe allows the writers to make smarter decisions from the beginning with regards story lines and do a more consistent job of characterizing their characters without trying to explain why the character acted so stupidly or out of character previously.

Marvel already did that with Ultimate and every once in a while they release a new continuity for kids (Marvel Adventures, Make Your Own Universe, that kind of thing). It worked out pretty well, specially with Ultimate.
However, some people like continuity. I don't want a Marvel universe lacking Spidey vs Juggernaut. I don't want a Marvel universe that ignores how Bucky was Captain America for a while. I don't want a Marvel universe that doesn't acknowledge that Spidey began adventuring at 16 and is now 29. I don't want teenage Spider-Man, learning to be a hero all over again. I want adult Spider-Man teaching others what it means to be a hero.
When DC did reboot everything, it became a mess. They got good sales numbers for a few months and then Marvel got the lead again. It didn't work that well and now they are forced to release 11 Batman books a month (plus a weekly) and make everyone else feel like they are in a Batman comic just to get even. It didn't work very well.

[Lord Raziere]

okay, okay, whatever, won't touch Spiderman, got it, geez.

comic book heroes are as controversial as alignment these days, so many different ways of portraying them mean everyone has got their own little version running around in their heads. seems I'm right in sticking to making my own original stuff.

[Jayngfet]

Marvel already did that with Ultimate and every once in a while they release a new continuity for kids (Marvel Adventures, Make Your Own Universe, that kind of thing). It worked out pretty well, specially with Ultimate.
However, some people like continuity. I don't want a Marvel universe lacking Spidey vs Juggernaut. I don't want a Marvel universe that ignores how Bucky was Captain America for a while. I don't want a Marvel universe that doesn't acknowledge that Spidey began adventuring at 16 and is now 29. I don't want teenage Spider-Man, learning to be a hero all over again. I want adult Spider-Man teaching others what it means to be a hero.
When DC did reboot everything, it became a mess. They got good sales numbers for a few months and then Marvel got the lead again. It didn't work that well and now they are forced to release 11 Batman books a month (plus a weekly) and make everyone else feel like they are in a Batman comic just to get even. It didn't work very well.

Now we're on the same page. One of the best comic book experiences I've ever had was going through basically all of Green Lantern from the silver age up until like the early 90's. There was a very clear progression even between writers and ages as Broome's work was referenced by O'Neil which served as the basis for the corps stuff in the 80's, then by the 90's Hal had seen so much he'd gone old and grey and kinda bitter about the whole thing since about 40 years of adventures had basically broken him down(Even if the ridiculous timeline said they happened in a slightly more rapid pace) and turned him bitter even without the whole parallax thing. There's a very clear and consistent character development as you watch a character go from point A to point B to point C while keeping reasonable consistency, and even through big event stuff like Millennium, which served more to advance the overarching plot than anything else.

Which is kind of why I got tired of Slott's Spider-Man, to be honest. He can't just commit to Peter doing anything or being anything and his big stuff like Spider Island was just filler even before Superior, which was always going to be temporary and ultimately not amount to much by it's very nature. Just like a large amount of the other comics by Marvel and DC I've picked up and then dropped. There's so much time spent rebooting and going back to basics and resetting things that you can't really get a character worked into a specific groove that well. Getting something consistent for a full decade is basically unthinkable, and the big, winding, decades long yarns that are some of the best stuff in the medium don't really factor into things at this point, since all anyone cares about is crapping out as many trades as possible.

[Man on Fire]

This is why I was saying Marvel and DC should just end their current universes and create new ones.

If they could handle a transition smoothly then it solves all of the continuity problems both companies are having by simply having no continuity to begin with. I'm talking about a clean start, starting fresh. Creating a new universe allows the writers to make smarter decisions from the beginning with regards story lines and do a more consistent job of characterizing their characters without trying to explain why the character acted so stupidly or out of character previously.

And I'm still telling you this way we'd lose all superheroes who are women or POC except Falcon, Gamora, Black Widow, maria Hill and Sif. Elektra, Storm, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, most of Runaways, all X-Men girls - none of them exist anymore because they do not exist in MCU. at best case scenario we would get from currently Marvel having 10 books about women (Elektra, Black Widow, Storm, X-Men, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, upcoming Spider-Woman, upcoming Thor, upcoming Angela ) to one, maybe two.

[tomandtish]

Alright, while I'll admit Hank isn't the best guy in the world (by a long shot). When he hit Wasp he was obviously suffering from a sever mental breakdown. Also, Wasp has stingers that have hurt the Hulk and has been hit by heavy enemies before. She should have kicked his ass three ways to Friday. Also, he's not the only super who hit their significant other while not under mind control. I know Peter Parker did it at least once, and I'm pretty sure Mr. Fantastic did it as well. The problem is, Hank never got a storyline past that. He's just that guy who went crazy and hit his wife. He doesn't have a strong character, he doesn't have that core redemptive storyline. He's just that guy who did something terrible. He doesn't even have a core role in any particular group. He's not the smart guy, which gets filled by Mr Fantastic or Tony Stark, he isn't the strong guy, he's just there.

Of course this is main continuity Pym. Ultimates Pym was just a raging abusive ******* as long as I followed that book.

As to the comics themselves. Uhh, I can give you some recommendations for some that I've enjoyed reading, but no ongoing stories. I tend to just wait for the TPB of good stories and pick them up.

But I think you are too hard on Hank Pym; he slapped Jan once during a mental breakdown. The guy is canonically mentally ill (nowadays he has built a machine that detects his crisis early, and he locks himself in a cell with a lot of videogames until he feels better), and Wasp knew that. She married him while he was suffering a psychotic episode and was claiming to be somebody else who had murdered Hank Pym; if somebody is at fault for what happened later it was the Avengers for not forcing him to seek medical help.

Metahuman1 - No, it wasn't estabilished that Hank has been physically abusive prior to the slapping incident. In fact, according to Jim Shooter, this scene wasn't even supposed toshow up - the script says Hank slaps Janet accidentially during energetic gesticulation. It was only over 30 years later when somebody treated it as years of an abusive relationship and that was Chuck Austen, whose book was so bad people ignored it anyway.

I'll stay out of any discussion of Utimates. i was well out of comics by that time (except for very specific occasional stories on advice of friends).

But Man on Fire is correct. Jim Shooter stated in an interview that what was supposed to happen was that hank was waving his arms in frustration, a kind of "go away gesture behind his back". Jan had come up behind him and he was supposed to have hit her accidentally because he hadn't realized she was right behind him. Unfortuately, this was not at all clear to Bob Hall (who was drawing) and what we got was the full blown no-holds barred punch. IT was apparently too late to have it redrawn.

However, even by the time I got out of comics in the early 90s, there had been quite a few references to the issues, and comments from other about Hank abusing Jan. Other comments had been made about possible past physical abuse (nothing ever shown or specifically spoken of), and a LOT of their past interaction looks very poor when viewed in the light of a potential abusive relationship. That is, he looks very controlling in who she sees, what she wears, etc. Of course, a lot of the interaction between Reed and Sue Richards looks the same way, but no one was focusing on it since he hadn't hit her.

Of course, bottom line is: What they chose to release was an issue where Pym clearly punches Wasp (no accidental about it). IF they felt strongly about it, they could have chosen to delay. They didn't, and we live in a world where Pym is known as a wife beater.

[Metahuman1]

I'll stay out of any discussion of Utimates. i was well out of comics by that time (except for very specific occasional stories on advice of friends).

But Man on Fire is correct. Jim Shooter stated in an interview that what was supposed to happen was that hank was waving his arms in frustration, a kind of "go away gesture behind his back". Jan had come up behind him and he was supposed to have hit her accidentally because he hadn't realized she was right behind him. Unfortuately, this was not at all clear to Bob Hall (who was drawing) and what we got was the full blown no-holds barred punch. IT was apparently too late to have it redrawn.

However, even by the time I got out of comics in the early 90s, there had been quite a few references to the issues, and comments from other about Hank abusing Jan. Other comments had been made about possible past physical abuse (nothing ever shown or specifically spoken of), and a LOT of their past interaction looks very poor when viewed in the light of a potential abusive relationship. That is, he looks very controlling in who she sees, what she wears, etc. Of course, a lot of the interaction between Reed and Sue Richards looks the same way, but no one was focusing on it since he hadn't hit her.

Of course, bottom line is: What they chose to release was an issue where Pym clearly punches Wasp (no accidental about it). IF they felt strongly about it, they could have chosen to delay. They didn't, and we live in a world where Pym is known as a wife beater.

So what your telling me is I have been given not great information here in this thread about Mr. Pym to cast him in a more favorable light then actually aquring and reading his whole main universe history could lend? Do I understand that right?



Shinken: Refresh my memory, didn't you say awhile back that Quesada wasn't with Marvel anymore? Cause According to his Wikipedia, he's not the editor in chief anymore cause he got a freaking promotion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Que...ditor_in_chief Little bit of a difference form leaving the company. In that it's the opposite of such and further, Only compounds my problems with the man and the company.

Which, if you did say that, makes me call into question, particularly if my understanding of the above gentleman's statements is in fact correct, just how straight your being with me about what's actually going on in these titles, or if your in fact bending the events and the impact and other details in order to try to make me thing I should be giving them my money again. You most certainly would not be the first die hard marvel fan who's tried this with me since I stopped buying there comics if that is indeed the case.

[TheThan]

Marvel already did that with Ultimate and every once in a while they release a new continuity for kids (Marvel Adventures, Make Your Own Universe, that kind of thing). It worked out pretty well, specially with Ultimate.
However, some people like continuity. I don't want a Marvel universe lacking Spidey vs Juggernaut. I don't want a Marvel universe that ignores how Bucky was Captain America for a while. I don't want a Marvel universe that doesn't acknowledge that Spidey began adventuring at 16 and is now 29. I don't want teenage Spider-Man, learning to be a hero all over again. I want adult Spider-Man teaching others what it means to be a hero.
When DC did reboot everything, it became a mess. They got good sales numbers for a few months and then Marvel got the lead again. It didn't work that well and now they are forced to release 11 Batman books a month (plus a weekly) and make everyone else feel like they are in a Batman comic just to get even. It didn't work very well.

That’s true, there’s always the potential to alienate some of their audience. But no matter what they do, they will alienate some of their audience. There are plenty of strong characters in the DC universe outside of batman but DC needs to give them the chance to be made into strong characters (hireing good writers would help).

Now we're on the same page. One of the best comic book experiences I've ever had was going through basically all of Green Lantern from the silver age up until like the early 90's. There was a very clear progression even between writers and ages as Broome's work was referenced by O'Neil which served as the basis for the corps stuff in the 80's, then by the 90's Hal had seen so much he'd gone old and grey and kinda bitter about the whole thing since about 40 years of adventures had basically broken him down(Even if the ridiculous timeline said they happened in a slightly more rapid pace) and turned him bitter even without the whole parallax thing. There's a very clear and consistent character development as you watch a character go from point A to point B to point C while keeping reasonable consistency, and even through big event stuff like Millennium, which served more to advance the overarching plot than anything else.

Which is kind of why I got tired of Slott's Spider-Man, to be honest. He can't just commit to Peter doing anything or being anything and his big stuff like Spider Island was just filler even before Superior, which was always going to be temporary and ultimately not amount to much by it's very nature. Just like a large amount of the other comics by Marvel and DC I've picked up and then dropped. There's so much time spent rebooting and going back to basics and resetting things that you can't really get a character worked into a specific groove that well. Getting something consistent for a full decade is basically unthinkable, and the big, winding, decades long yarns that are some of the best stuff in the medium don't really factor into things at this point, since all anyone cares about is crapping out as many trades as possible.

This is kinda what I’m getting at. By starting over Marvel and DC can build a new timeline, a new continuity and have character grow naturally as they go about their adventures. Assuming they don’t screw it up of course.

And I'm still telling you this way we'd lose all superheroes who are women or POC except Falcon, Gamora, Black Widow, maria Hill and Sif. Elektra, Storm, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, most of Runaways, all X-Men girls - none of them exist anymore because they do not exist in MCU. at best case scenario we would get from currently Marvel having 10 books about women (Elektra, Black Widow, Storm, X-Men, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, upcoming Spider-Woman, upcoming Thor, upcoming Angela ) to one, maybe two.

The MCU is rather popular right now judging from how well their movies are doing in the box office. So that’s a good place to start, more characters can be added to the comic universe as they progress forward.

But personally I’d rather have fewer strong female leads than more mediocre or bad female leads.

[Jayngfet]

This is kinda what I’m getting at. By starting over Marvel and DC can build a new timeline, a new continuity and have character grow naturally as they go about their adventures. Assuming they don’t screw it up of course.

The issue being that we start over way too frequently to get the full effect, or at least try to.

Hal Jordan's story lasted what, thirty to forty years. That's an extreme outlier but it illustrates the point perfectly. In the grand scheme of things it takes a decade at minimum to work a proper groove up and wring a character out properly of every bit of story they're worth. Anything less just leaves a whole lot unsaid. DC has been trying to hit the reboot button way too frequently and Marvel won't commit either given the constant ridiculous events going on.

The MCU is rather popular right now judging from how well their movies are doing in the box office. So that’s a good place to start, more characters can be added to the comic universe as they progress forward.

But personally I’d rather have fewer strong female leads than more mediocre or bad female leads.

Agreed. The people involved have to legitimately want it instead of just fill a quota to actually do it properly. Sadly for both companies we get a lot more quota-filling than we do actually wanting it.

[Shinken]

It's a new character, Johnny is still a GR in Thunderbolts and will guest starr in issue #8. As for ANGR: Robbie Reyes is a latino-American teenager living in East L.A., taking care of his wheelchair-bound brother Gabe. He is very mature and responsible for his age, but living-conditions he and Gabe have to go through are horrible (it is a gang-controlled part of LA) so in desperate attempts he steals a car and tries to win money in a street race. Car turns down to belong to drug dealer, Robbie gets shot, dies and comes back as Ghost Rider. He isn't host of Zarathos, but a spirit named Eli, who so far remained mysterious but seem to not be as smart as he pretends to be (who he is might be explained once Johnny shows up).
It's a really well-crafted book, Felippe Smith has a way of building really likeable character and Moore is god on the artwork. There are many interestign themes going through the book - contrast between Robbie and villainous Doctor Zabo, screwing with reader's first impressions (people we immiediatelly were made to think as bad often get a chance to prove they are much better than we were willing to give to them)

I read it and liked it a lot. Thanks for the suggestion. Looks like I have a new book to follow.

okay, okay, whatever, won't touch Spiderman, got it, geez.

comic book heroes are as controversial as alignment these days, so many different ways of portraying them mean everyone has got their own little version running around in their heads. seems I'm right in sticking to making my own original stuff.

I don't see why you're being so defensive. You have to know your source material if you want to write any character.

Now we're on the same page. One of the best comic book experiences I've ever had was going through basically all of Green Lantern from the silver age up until like the early 90's. There was a very clear progression even between writers and ages as Broome's work was referenced by O'Neil which served as the basis for the corps stuff in the 80's, then by the 90's Hal had seen so much he'd gone old and grey and kinda bitter about the whole thing since about 40 years of adventures had basically broken him down(Even if the ridiculous timeline said they happened in a slightly more rapid pace) and turned him bitter even without the whole parallax thing. There's a very clear and consistent character development as you watch a character go from point A to point B to point C while keeping reasonable consistency, and even through big event stuff like Millennium, which served more to advance the overarching plot than anything else.

I remember fondly Peter David's run on Hulk and Mark Waid's run on Flash. Good times.

Which is kind of why I got tired of Slott's Spider-Man, to be honest. He can't just commit to Peter doing anything or being anything and his big stuff like Spider Island was just filler even before Superior, which was always going to be temporary and ultimately not amount to much by it's very nature. Just like a large amount of the other comics by Marvel and DC I've picked up and then dropped. There's so much time spent rebooting and going back to basics and resetting things that you can't really get a character worked into a specific groove that well. Getting something consistent for a full decade is basically unthinkable, and the big, winding, decades long yarns that are some of the best stuff in the medium don't really factor into things at this point, since all anyone cares about is crapping out as many trades as possible.

I respect your opinion, but I really don't see that in Slott's Spider-Man. Spider Island was great on its own and it advanced several of his plots, while getting Kaine in the superhero biz.

Shinken: Refresh my memory, didn't you say awhile back that Quesada wasn't with Marvel anymore? Cause According to his Wikipedia, he's not the editor in chief anymore cause he got a freaking promotion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Que...ditor_in_chief Little bit of a difference form leaving the company. In that it's the opposite of such and further, Only compounds my problems with the man and the company.

I never said he left the company.
Quesada doesn't interfere with creative decisions anymore, because that's not his job.

Which, if you did say that, makes me call into question, particularly if my understanding of the above gentleman's statements is in fact correct, just how straight your being with me about what's actually going on in these titles, or if your in fact bending the events and the impact and other details in order to try to make me thing I should be giving them my money again. You most certainly would not be the first die hard marvel fan who's tried this with me since I stopped buying there comics if that is indeed the case.

I'm not a diehard Marvel fan, I complain a lot when they do stupid stuff. I think the new direction Thunderbolts took is a disgrace to the title's name, I think cancelling Fearless Defenders was a huge mistake, I think Avengers Arena was an awful substitute for Academy, I think the ongoing Guardians of the Galaxy book doesn't hold a candle to the DnA run, I haven't read X-men since Whedon left Astonishing. I don't care about how you spend your money, either. I just don't like when you keep saying X and X happened when it clearly didn't, because someone on the internet was overreacting and you took it as gospel.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't see why you're being so defensive. You have to know your source material if you want to write any character.

what is your problem? I'm not trying to offend you or anything, chill out. your breaking the "Don't Be Hard On Newbs" Rule. Not cool. I even acknowledged stuff like that might've already happened even if I didn't know it, so what is your problem?

[Anteros]

I don't think Shinken is intentionally trying to offend anyone. He just picked a few poor word choices. I do it myself all the time, and I rarely, if ever intend to offend anyone.

As to Spidey and MJ. I don't really care if they are together or not. They could have gotten divorced, or MJ could have died and it would have been ok as long as it was a natural result of the characters and a well told story. I will not however, ever support a "hero" that thinks it's ok to sell parts of his soul to the devil in order to solve his problems. Especially a hero who's main theme is taking responsibility for your actions. The deal went against everything Spiderman ever stood for, and completely invalidates his entire character.

Spidey and MJ could get remarried in the comics tomorrow, and it wouldn't solve the problem. The problem is that Peter Parker is now a terrible person in my opinion and I don't relate to him at all.