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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    a commoner would almost instantly fail his wisdom check vs the allip and go about as crazy. The allip does not really have a motivation to kill the tarrasque. At lower wisdom i bet the tarrasque would be raging and destroying, most things. I believe you have to cast your spell as well as actually land a killing blow (good luck commoner doing that to something with crazy high AC) Also not really seeing anything allowing you to get a 9th level spell slot or the spell miracle.

    Also no DM would allow half these things to work. May work in a purely technical sense but easily screwed up and in practice not really viable (for instance asking for a knowledge check the DM could say a commoner would not know how to make a demonic pact ect)

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by maniacalmojo View Post
    a commoner would almost instantly fail his wisdom check vs the allip and go about as crazy. The allip does not really have a motivation to kill the tarrasque. At lower wisdom i bet the tarrasque would be raging and destroying, most things. I believe you have to cast your spell as well as actually land a killing blow (good luck commoner doing that to something with crazy high AC) Also not really seeing anything allowing you to get a 9th level spell slot or the spell miracle.
    If you are afraid of going Allip-Crazy, buy some wax and put it in your ears. This is explicitly stated to prevent Sonic effects from working.

    Indeed, the Allip has no motivation. That's why you are Commanding it to do your bidding. Allips are CE and quite insane, so I would be surprised if it doesn't follow a trail of fleshy, drainable bodies (your chickens).

    No, you do not have to land the killing blow. You just need to cast Miracle or Wish at the unconscious Tarrasque's body, and then it dies.

    The spell miracle is gained by the Arcane Disciple feat, which lets you add Miracle to your spell list. (yes you have one, Magical Training gives you a spell list)
    The spell slot is gained by the Pact, which gives you a spell slot of any level.

    This character is a caster with a spell slot of the intended level, an ability score high enough to cast the spell and the spell on his spell list. What else would he need to cast the spell? I doubt Kurtulmak would be very opposed to slaying the Tarrasque.

    Quote Originally Posted by maniacalmojo View Post
    Also no DM would allow half these things to work. May work in a purely technical sense but easily screwed up and in practice not really viable (for instance asking for a knowledge check the DM could say a commoner would not know how to make a demonic pact ect)
    Of course a DM wouldn't allow this. This is TO. The point is that this works by RAW, and if a DM goes restricting parts of it, then that isn't this build's problem.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2014-08-08 at 02:56 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quoth Dire_Stirge:

    This character is a caster with a spell slot of the intended level, an ability score high enough to cast the spell and the spell on his spell list. What else would he need to cast the spell?
    5000 XP, maybe?
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    5000 XP, maybe?
    not for killing the tarrasque
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    XP-free miracles are only for duplicating lower-level spells, undoing harmful status conditions, and other effects of the same power level as those. Finishing off the Tarrasque does not fit into any of those categories, and therefore must be a greater request, which costs XP.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    XP-free miracles are only for duplicating lower-level spells, undoing harmful status conditions, and other effects of the same power level as those. Finishing off the Tarrasque does not fit into any of those categories, and therefore must be a greater request, which costs XP.
    Heroics and spells which duplicate racial or class features cover 1-4th level spells in arcane and divine, removal or suppression of those is reasonably within the power of the spell

    you cant influence whether the tarrasque can remain dead while alive, and it does not declare wish or miracle requiring XP to keep him down.

    The tarrasque does not fall under the definition of natural Disaster (despite being one), by the point it can be miracled dead the battle is over so miracle cant swing the battle, and its definitely not precision gate
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    The list of things that don't cost XP is specific and exhaustive. The list of things that do cost XP is not, and consists of "everything else". Taking away the Tarrasque's ability to come back isn't at all remotely like a 4th-level spell: The only other thing that can do it is a ninth-level non-cleric spell, which rather definitively proves it's not comparable to any spell that Miracle can copy.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    The list of things that don't cost XP is specific and exhaustive. The list of things that do cost XP is not, and consists of "everything else".
    This is correct.

    it does not declare wish or miracle requiring XP to keep him down
    This is also correct.

    Does the specific-ness of the latter trump the general-ness of the prior? Surely there must be piece of RAW out there that resolves wheter the specific-trumps-general rule applies when a spell-application is referenced by something outside the spells description.

    As to the question whether "undo auto-ressurect" is within the realm of a 4th or lower level spell... The Kiss of the Grave poison from the WotC Fey ariticle archives seems to be the closest thing to this effect, as it explcitly turns immortals mortal as its secondary effect, and can only be reversed with a miracle or wish. Surely one can draw a reasonable comparison from that.
    Spoiler: Kiss of the Grave
    Show
    Kiss of the Grave Contact DC 20 1d4 Con Mortality* 5,000 gp
    Crafting this poison also carries the prerequisites of Craft Wondrous Item and bestow curse. *The secondary damage causes immortal creatures, such as fey, to become mortal and renders all creatures unable to be raised or resurrected. The secondary damage is permanent and can be reversed only with a miracle or wish spell.


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    Last edited by Jowgen; 2014-08-09 at 09:09 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    We all know the Tarrasque is far, far, over CR-ed. A moderately optimized party could easily take him down at 10th level, or even at 5th level. However, killing him is not as easy, is it?

    In this thread, I present a build that can kill the Tarrasque at 1st level, with no dependency on classes, items or spellcasting services. (but a high dependency on rule of silly )

    So, how is it? I'd love to gain some feedback on this.
    This is impressive.. but unfortunately, Madness Tarrasqueslayer's fame would be short-lived, as there is now an Allip attacking the city, and it is not nearly as easy to kill as a Tarrasque.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quoth Jowgen:

    Does the specific-ness of the latter trump the general-ness of the prior? Surely there must be piece of RAW out there that resolves wheter the specific-trumps-general rule applies when a spell-application is referenced by something outside the spells description.
    What specific-ness of the the latter? It doesn't say anything about whether the Miracle costs XP, just that it can be done with a Miracle. If it doesn't say, then we go by what the general rule says (which is, after all, the point of having a general rule). The general rule says it costs XP, and there's nothing that contradicts that, so it costs XP.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowLord79 View Post
    This is impressive.. but unfortunately, Madness Tarrasqueslayer's fame would be short-lived, as there is now an Allip attacking the city, and it is not nearly as easy to kill as a Tarrasque.
    He's still got it under his Command. The command 'keep floating all the way to the east' is already a good way to keep it from attacking you.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    He's still got it under his Command. The command 'keep floating all the way to the east' is already a good way to keep it from attacking you.
    That's assuming he is able to control the Allip, and it's not just "chasing chickens," so to speak...
    "Save your tears, my fetid friends, the dead have Wept enough!"
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowLord79 View Post
    That's assuming he is able to control the Allip, and it's not just "chasing chickens," so to speak...
    Then run all the way east, creating chickens on the way. It's less elegant, but hey, it works.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    5000 XP, maybe?
    He already got the XP by defeating the Tarrasque.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Hm, true, the point when he needs the Miracle is after the Tarrasque is defeated. But the XP tables don't extend as far as an ECL 1 character defeating a CR 20 foe, and even if they did, the most XP you can ever gain from an encounter is enough to put you one point short of two levels higher (less than 3000, for a first-level character).
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Could you miracle for some souls? Souls can be used to pay an xp cost and have a gp value. Just have your pet allip take another swing at the tarrasque until you can get your spells back.

    Alternatively, if you defeat the tarrasque and then kill the allip, is that enough XP to pay the cost?

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Once you've got Big T down, you have all the time in the world: Ability drain doesn't heal on its own, not even for the Tarrasque. But you can't just miracle up some souls, because producing items isn't on Miracle's freebie list, either.

    There are ways around this, of course: You could use Miracle to emulate Planar Binding to call an efreet and use one of its wishes to finish off the Tarrasque, for instance. But once you start down that road, it's a slippery slope to Pun-Pun, or something not too far removed from him.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    the most XP you can ever gain from an encounter is enough to put you one point short of two levels higher (less than 3000, for a first-level character).
    no such rule, thats a DDO mechanic to allow better xp farming
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Will provide citqtion once I get home, but I believe it is a rule, Toapat. Like 90% sure.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Level advancement may depend on what ruleset you are operating under. The D&D 3.5 PHB has this on pg. 58:

    "A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained."
    Source: Jonathan Tweet, et. al., (2003) D&D Player's Handbook v3.5, 1st printing, c. Wizards of the Coast

    Previous editions had a similar rule. I don't see anything similar under Pathfinder rules.
    Last edited by Lord of Shadows; 2014-09-21 at 06:22 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Wow this is amazing. Up next: Negative Levels the stab-happy Commoner, and the horde of Wights that keep popping up a day behind him.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    This is..."beautiful" isn't the right word but the only one I can come up with.
    ...look at all the pretty lights...

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Madness was born a lowly commoner named Eric on the outskirts of town. His family ran a small house farm that made just enough scratch to feed the kids. His parents believed that education was the only way to improve their lot and they traded favors and their bodies to send all of their children to school for as long as they could afford. Eric excelled in the religion classes. This life was difficult, considering that Eric needed to return home for chickenmancy lessons on the farm.

    When his 7th sister was born, Eric was pushed out of the house at the age of 15 to find his own way and during a run as a migrant farmer/chicken rancher, he was kidnapped along with a few of his coworkers by a...coven(?) of kobolds that were upset by the encroachment of the plantation of a mixed hardwood forest that the group of kobolds needed for premium traps to deal with their own subterranean dwarf & gnome problems. The kobolds didn't understand that humans have heirarchies, and that migrant farmers are on the bottom of it, so no help was sent. The commoners were just replaced.

    Trapped underground in tiny prison cells, Eric and his friends were tended to daily by the regional kobold sorcerer/priest of Kurtulmak who was acting as a chaplain. After a few weeks, Eric was enthralled by the religious teachings of the kobolds, waiting with baited breath and all sorts of questions for the chaplain. This was the first time that Eric was exposed to sorcery, arcana, non-human gods. He honestly cried when he thought of the injustice of garl glittergold's "prank" on the then hardworking diety of Kurtulmak. Eric identified with that struggle. Plus, all of these conversations reminded Eric of the best parts of his schooling, with none of the obligations of a chickenfarming commoners life. Meanwhile, the other prisoners hatched a plan that involved taking the chaplain hostage with a wooden knife they fashioned from a stray piece of wood left in the cell. This would guarantee that the maximum number of humans escaped, as the hostage taker would get all of the humans out of the warrens before releasing the kobold.

    The Chaplain needed these prisoners to be relatively well kept, just in case they could be used in a prisoner exchange for formally recognized kobold territory boundaries. The kobolds wanted stability with the above earth kingdoms right now, while they waged a war with the underkingdom demihumans.

    Eric whelched on the compact of migrant farmworkers. He whispered the plan to the Chaplain the next day while also attempting to leverage his possible tutelage from the Chaplain. He promised and begged to stay with the kobolds. The fellow workers overheard this and raged in their cells. One of them cursed Eric, "From now on, you will be known by what you sincerely have become, and you have become Madness!" At this, the chaplain chuckled and alerted the guards to the escape attempt.

    Kobold warriors entered the hall and whispered with the chaplain. Then the local chieftan entered the room and joined the conversation as well. They agreed that this plan had already yielded the results they wanted. Commoners refused to fell anymore trees in the patch of forest and the traps they left in the forest perimeter were further dissuading to the human populace. Fear and a perception of danger may be the most effective tool to maintain the access to the mixed hardwood forest. The chieftan directed the chaplain to scar the migrants into telling the most ferocious stories of the kobold strength underground.

    The Chaplain cast a spell that made all of the commoners eyelids invisible. The Chaplain and his assistants then tortured a few of the prisoners in front of all of the other prisoners. One of the people chosen for this torture was Madness. The chaplain took a sharpened piece of obsidian and carved the outline of kobold scales along Madnessess arms, back, and legs. Then he poured rotten wine on the wounds. The chaplain had assumed a few things: The prisoners may assume that he liked Madness and would take it easy on him. So to really prove the message that the kobolds are ruthless, he singled out Madness and really made him into an art project. The bitter irony that chaplain layed out on Madnesses' skin was to make him look like the kobold that he apparently wished he could be.

    Things did not go as the Chaplain had intended. Madness persevered and laughed during the process. The maddening pain was ok to Madness as he viewed this ironic spectacle as an induction ceremony of sorts. He sputtered and shrieked and laughed through the pain, viewing himself as suffering similar to kurtulmak. His response, in full view of his fellow human prisoners made them incredibly disturbed. This turn of events just happened to align with the kobolds' need for the humans above to fear the kobolds below. As the human prisoners were set free, the warriors explained to them the awesome mind control powers of the kobolds just to stoke their human fears.

    To roll with the punches, the Chaplain decided to keep Madness behind. He and the kobolds continued to call him madness and they allowed him more freedom. He learned forbidden secrets and discovered his magical aptitude and intuition under the tutelage of the chaplain. These secrets led him to develop a slight power over undead and knowledge of the allip.

    A year or so after living with the kobolds, a gnomish counterstrike slew all of them. They found this scarred up human prisoner and decided to return him to the surface in a different human kingdom than where he came from because that was the best output of resources for a POW who they had no interest in.

    At the surface, Madness, who adopted his curse name, returned to plantation work.

    Now, at first level, A rumbling in the distance marks the approach of the tarrasque.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    BURN THE FOUL NECROMANCER!


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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    BURN THE FOUL NECROMANCER!
    An ironic statement, coming from an Avatar of Vecna whose avatar is a necromancer, raising a skeleton.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    An ironic statement, coming from an Avatar of Vecna whose avatar is a necromancer, raising a skeleton.
    Even the Avatar of a Lich Deity fears understands and respects the mighty Ban Hammer.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Rise, ye thread, long since dead, haunt the forum from whence ye came.
    Copy this to your signature if you love Jade_Tarem, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

    Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2015

    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Idk why everyone on the internet hates thread necromancy. That post was golden. Yay backstory!

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Jan 2014

    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    So, you're using an argument of "not RAW but it's logical", and that's the part of the build that you're objecting to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And besides, it's a ludicrous way of breaking the game by twisting rules beyond all recognition. Kobolds have to be involved in there somewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    This thread is spawning so much great quotes.
    Apparently I can't make a reply that's just quotes so here are some words that aren't quotes.

    Now which of these do I add to my signature...

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    I'm not sure the name helps create an allip. It says the person has to be "afflicted by madness" not "afflicted by Madness"
    Thanks to Kurien for drawing my avatar, and NightWolf16a for coloring it.

    Spoiler: The master lurker
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