How Vaarsuvius may deal with Xykon in the next fight.

[Atomburster]

Given what Vaarsuvius learned from his/her first solo fight with Xykon and the mother dragon, i hypothesize that she/he may defeat Xykon by using spells to effectively nullify Xykon's usefulness in battle.

For instance:
: Energy Drain
: Wall of Force

Or even just cast antimagic field near Xykon and Redcloak and have the rest of the order stomp them. Thoughts?

[Keltest]

Antimagic field would ironically make Xykon more difficult to defeat, as all of the order's weapons are heavily enchanted, and liches have a good deal of damage reduction.

[jidasfire]

I think the main lesson the strip has been teaching to everyone is that no one can defeat Xykon on their own. Everyone who has tried (except Soon Kim, who was a holy ghost paladin and is no longer around) has had their posterior handed to them. Roy died, and V, despite in some ways having a massive power surplus, was hamstrung by Xykon's mage-buster tactics. So when they do someday fight Xykon again, I am sure it won't be the elf who single-handedly wins the fight so much as it will be the team working in tandem, to whatever degree they are able. There's also the chance that V will be out of commission because of the IFCC during said battle, though that is hard to accurately speculate at this juncture. Considering Xykon is all but immune or at least highly resistant to every form of magical attack, V would be far better served by engaging defensive or supportive magic.

[Kish]

Or even just cast antimagic field near Xykon and Redcloak and have the rest of the order stomp them. Thoughts?

Xykon's epic-level spells will work just fine in an antimagic field, even in the (in my opinion, unlikely) event that Rich decides Xykon's Superb Dispelling will not blow away the field.

[Gryndel]

Anti-magic field affects Supernatural abilities. A lich's paralyzing touch AND damage reduction are listed as supernatural abilities.

[orrion]

Given what Vaarsuvius learned from his/her first solo fight with Xykon and the mother dragon, i hypothesize that she/he may defeat Xykon by using spells to effectively nullify Xykon's usefulness in battle.

For instance:
: Energy Drain
: Wall of Force

Or even just cast antimagic field near Xykon and Redcloak and have the rest of the order stomp them. Thoughts?

Well, hopefully, that particular outlined scenario would be:

(before the fight) Some incarnation of : Mass Death Ward

If V has Sunburst by that point, it would be just about the best offensive choice. If V ever gets to the point where he learns Meteor Swarm, he could counterspell one of Xykon's.

[Atomburster]

Xykon's epic-level spells will work just fine in an antimagic field, even in the (in my opinion, unlikely) event that Rich decides Xykon's Superb Dispelling will not blow away the field.

Repeated casting of antimagic field will reduce reduce Xykon to what amounts to an undead with really high AC and awful damage output for CR. Also, V can cast more A-M fields than Xykon can cast Superb Dispellings, not to mention that Xykon is takes damage and wastes his turn every time he casts Superb Dispel. Or just have Roy grapple Xykon like he did in the first Gate Fight.

Well, hopefully, that particular outlined scenario would be:

(before the fight) Some incarnation of : Mass Death Ward

If V has Sunburst by that point, it would be just about the best offensive choice. If V ever gets to the point where he learns Meteor Swarm, he could counterspell one of Xykon's.

If V was being efficent, the best route would be to ready all his spells. Well, I still think that A-M fields are the best choice to use as "counterspells"-with Xykon's spell list, V should know that he has no offensive spell that can go through an A-M field. It also lets V make the point that:
Superb Dispelling.
(A-M field destroyed)
: A wizard can cast nearly everything. A sorcerer can but cast a small fraction of magic. You never did have a real chance of winning a battle when you opponent knew all your spells. True power is found in flexibility. Sorcerors have none of that. Anti-Magic Field, again.
*Rest of Oots*: *Attacks Xykon*

[Keltest]

If V was being efficent, the best route would be to ready all his spells. Well, I still think that A-M fields are the best choice to use as "counterspells"-with Xykon's spell list, V should know that he has no offensive spell that can go through an A-M field. It also lets V make the point that:
Superb Dispelling.
(A-M field destroyed)
: A wizard can cast nearly everything. A sorcerer can but cast a small fraction of magic. You never did have a real chance of winning a battle when you opponent knew all your spells. True power is found in flexibility. Sorcerors have none of that. Anti-Magic Field, again.
*Rest of Oots*: *Attacks Xykon*

Id like to point out the irony of claiming flexibility as an advantage, followed by performing exactly the same action as before.

[AgentofOdd]

Repeated casting of antimagic field will reduce reduce Xykon to what amounts to an undead with really high AC and awful damage output for CR. Also, V can cast more A-M fields than Xykon can cast Superb Dispellings, not to mention that Xykon is takes damage and wastes his turn every time he casts Superb Dispel. Or just have Roy grapple Xykon like he did in the first Gate Fight.

Antimagic field is a good strategy but I'd definitely have a Plan B in place just in case Xykon created an epic variation of something like Violent Ultimatum specifically to take out mage killers who think a single spell could be used to take out epic casters like him.

[Leviting]

couldn't Xykon just... leave the anti-magic field? Like with his legs?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The best way for Vaarsuvius to take on Xykon is to not have it be a solo fight and instead have as many people as possible fighting Team Evil. Vaarsuvius may even try to do what they did first against the slavers, by taking a more supporting role. I would advise against Vaarsuvius talking down to Xykon for being a Sorceror, as that always seems to end poorly.

[orrion]

Repeated casting of antimagic field will reduce reduce Xykon to what amounts to an undead with really high AC and awful damage output for CR. Also, V can cast more A-M fields than Xykon can cast Superb Dispellings, not to mention that Xykon is takes damage and wastes his turn every time he casts Superb Dispel. Or just have Roy grapple Xykon like he did in the first Gate Fight.

So far we don't even know that V has AMF scribed, and I don't think V is likely to just prepare all his 6th and over spell slots as AMF on the off-chance of running into Xykon.

I mean, if we're thinking strategically, it would be a fail to prepare more than 1 or 2.

Also, I wasn't aware that we knew how many Superb Dispel spells Xykon can cast.

If V was being efficent, the best route would be to ready all his spells. Well, I still think that A-M fields are the best choice to use as "counterspells"-with Xykon's spell list, V should know that he has no offensive spell that can go through an A-M field. It also lets V make the point that:
Superb Dispelling.
(A-M field destroyed)
: A wizard can cast nearly everything. A sorcerer can but cast a small fraction of magic. You never did have a real chance of winning a battle when you opponent knew all your spells. True power is found in flexibility. Sorcerors have none of that. Anti-Magic Field, again.
*Rest of Oots*: *Attacks Xykon*

Uh, you can't have V say "Flexibility is awesome" followed by "I cast the same spell again." That's the opposite of flexibility.

AMF is a 10 foot radius around Vaarsuvius. I'd be slightly leery of getting within 10 feet of a lich. Aside from that AMF essentially renders V useless for the rest of the fight (as it did against the ABD until he was spliced) because it would nullify anything else he casts. Not to mention the effects it would have on the rest of the party - Roy's +5 Greatsword with the awesome deadly-against-undead effect, for instance, would be rendered worthless.

All in all, casting AMF would seem to hinder the Order more than Xykon.

--

The reason I said "if V gets Meteor Swarm" is because as per the rules, Counterspelling is usually reserved to countering the same spell. So if V had Meteor Swarm, he could counter Xykon's. I suppose he could also use something like Cone of Cold because it's an opposite element or Dispel Magic as a generic counter, but I'm not well versed enough in the nuances to say those would absolutely work.

[zimmerwald1915]

Superb Dispelling.
(A-M field destroyed)
: A wizard can cast nearly everything. A sorcerer can but cast a small fraction of magic. You never did have a real chance of winning a battle when you opponent knew all your spells. True power is found in flexibility. Sorcerors have none of that. Anti-Magic Field, again.
*Rest of Oots*: *Attacks Xykon*

This strikes me as redundant, and thus, not likely.

What strikes me as much more likely is that V is doing something irrelevant off-panel when Xykon is destroyed.

[ti'esar]

Honestly, the thought of Xykon being defeated in a straight-up fight at all strikes me as very unlikely.

[orrion]

This strikes me as redundant, and thus, not likely.

What strikes me as much more likely is that V is doing something irrelevant off-panel when Xykon is destroyed.

V gets intentionally taken out of the fights where he could stomp all over everything and provide every answer to the problems the Order faces (like the Fly spell to save Roy).

Since it's unlikely that V can stomp all over Redcloak and Xykon there's no particular reason to assume that he'll be absent for a final showdown.

[Keltest]

V gets intentionally taken out of the fights where he could stomp all over everything and provide every answer to the problems the Order faces (like the Fly spell to save Roy).

Since it's unlikely that V can stomp all over Redcloak and Xykon there's no particular reason to assume that he'll be absent for a final showdown.

Besides, I think many people, including Rich, would find it an unsatisfactory conclusion if the collective nemesis of the entire order was beaten by any group other than a united Order of the Stick.

[zimmerwald1915]

Besides, I think many people, including Rich, would find it an unsatisfactory conclusion if the collective nemesis of the entire order was beaten by any group other than a united Order of the Stick.

What a pity, then, that he's taken a thousand pages to establish them as everything other than up to the task.

[Keltest]

What a pity, then, that he's taken a thousand pages to establish them as everything other than up to the task.

well theres no story if the characters are immediately able to accomplish the end goal without any growth.

[Atomburster]

Also, I wasn't aware that we knew how many Superb Dispel spells Xykon can cast.
Uh, you can't have V say "Flexibility is awesome" followed by "I cast the same spell again." That's the opposite of flexibility.

I think of it as a statement that sorcerors can't change their spells, meaning that all V literally had to do to defeat Xykon what to amend his entire spellbook to countering him, like how Zz'dtri tried to amend his entire spellbook and build just to defeat Vaarsuvius and ended up doing decently well until dominate person came about. Difference being that since V already knows all of their spells and abilities, they can't quite do the same thing to them.

AMF is a 10 foot radius around Vaarsuvius. I'd be slightly leery of getting within 10 feet of a lich. Aside from that AMF essentially renders V useless for the rest of the fight (as it did against the ABD until he was spliced) because it would nullify anything else he casts. Not to mention the effects it would have on the rest of the party - Roy's +5 Greatsword with the awesome deadly-against-undead effect, for instance, would be rendered worthless.

All in all, casting AMF would seem to hinder the Order more than Xykon.

It also nullifies anything Redcloak can cast, plus any non epic-spell from Xykon.

The reason I said "if V gets Meteor Swarm" is because as per the rules, Counterspelling is usually reserved to countering the same spell. So if V had Meteor Swarm, he could counter Xykon's. I suppose he could also use something like Cone of Cold because it's an opposite element or Dispel Magic as a generic counter, but I'm not well versed enough in the nuances to say those would absolutely work.

If V was within melee range of Xykon, Prismatic walls would start becoming an amazing choice that blocks almost anything. Or just start using Resilent spheres,Forcecages and Wall of Forces, which also work on a feeling Xykon. It would mark the second time he's had to run away.

[Kish]

If V was within melee range of Xykon, Prismatic walls would start becoming an amazing choice that blocks almost anything.

...if Xykon didn't possess an item that makes him immune to fire, natural immunity to cold, electricity, poison, and mind-affecting spells, and saving throws of Ha Ha Keep Dreaming Elf for the one thing that might otherwise moderately inconvenience him (the random plane shift), that is.

As it is, Xykon would stroll through a Prismatic Wall from Vaarsuvius with approximately as much difficulty as he would have walking down a corridor. Unlike Antimagic Field he wouldn't even need to cast a spell for that.

[Atomburster]

...if Xykon didn't possess an item that makes him immune to fire, natural immunity to cold, electricity, poison, and mind-affecting spells, and saving throws of Ha Ha Keep Dreaming Elf for the one thing that might otherwise moderately inconvenience him (the random plane shift), that is.

As it is, Xykon would stroll through a Prismatic Wall from Vaarsuvius with approximately as much difficulty as he would have walking down a corridor. Unlike Antimagic Field he wouldn't even need to cast a spell for that.

Well, there are still Wall of Forces. It would be mildly amusing if Xykon got trapped within an A-M field and Wall of Forces on 4 sides. Or even quickened wall of forces, although I seriously doubt V would do something like that. Perhaps a combination of invisibility and Major image/Ghost Sound? It would definitely continue the theme of using low-level spells to defeat high-leveled sorcerors, not to mention how using spells from the illusion school might deeply embarrass Eugene Greenhilt the illusion specialist by pointing out how illusion spells are useful.

[orrion]

What a pity, then, that he's taken a thousand pages to establish them as everything other than up to the task.

Where's the suspense if we were just waiting for the Order to go in and smoke Xykon, MiTD, and Redcloak?

Find me a good story where the major character(s) is/are ever up to the task going in. I'll wait.

I think of it as a statement that sorcerors can't change their spells, meaning that all V literally had to do to defeat Xykon what to amend his entire spellbook to countering him, like how Zz'dtri tried to amend his entire spellbook and build just to defeat Vaarsuvius and ended up doing decently well until dominate person came about. Difference being that since V already knows all of their spells and abilities, they can't quite do the same thing to them.

Except by doing that, V isn't being flexible. He is in fact tailoring himself around a particular strategy. What happens, for instance, if V meets Redcloak before Xykon?

Everything about V's development is to move him AWAY from trying to solve everything by himself and from building around a particular strategy he thinks is infallible. The scenario you're painting moves this 10 steps backward by trying to make V into a catchall for Xykon and relying on one thing.

It also nullifies anything Redcloak can cast, plus any non epic-spell from Xykon.

Yeah, because both Xykon and Redcloak are going to conveniently stay within 10 feet of Vaarsuvius. I mean, Xykon probably casts Overland Flight on himself every day. He flies, V is screwed. Unless he gets within 10 feet of Xykon midair and then casts AMF.. but frankly, V going that close to Xykon is a suicide mission.

Also, it doesn't nullify Redcloak's summons. They would wink out and reappear if V moved.

If V was within melee range of Xykon, Prismatic walls would start becoming an amazing choice that blocks almost anything. Or just start using Resilent spheres,Forcecages and Wall of Forces, which also work on a feeling Xykon. It would mark the second time he's had to run away.

Kish answered the Prismatic Wall. Xykon has (Greater) Teleport, so he'd be able to get out of Spheres and Forcecages. Redcloak has Dispel Magic. Besides, if V is that close with AMF up.. we already know Forcecage doesn't work in an AMF and I don't think a Sphere or Wall of Force would either.

Well, there are still Wall of Forces. It would be mildly amusing if Xykon got trapped within an A-M field and Wall of Forces on 4 sides. Or even quickened wall of forces, although I seriously doubt V would do something like that. Perhaps a combination of invisibility and Major image/Ghost Sound? It would definitely continue the theme of using low-level spells to defeat high-leveled sorcerors, not to mention how using spells from the illusion school might deeply embarrass Eugene Greenhilt the illusion specialist by pointing out how illusion spells are useful.

: Disintegrate. No more Wall of Force.

Putting aside for the moment that V is unlikely to have prepared 4x Wall of Force spells, how exactly is he supposed to cast them when the AMF is centered on him? I mean, I guess he could precast the Walls and then somehow get Xykon to move with him until he was in the center, but that seems highly unlikely for several reasons. Chief among them is that at the moment it seems unlikely that the Order will have control of the battlefield, so they won't be able to prepare something like that.

Far a quickened Wall of Force goes, V won't be able to do that. Wall of Force is 5th level, so quickening it uses a 9th level spell slot. V won't have any 9th level spell slots to waste like that, let alone multiple 9th level slots.

[Porthos]

Folks, Redcloak is able to cast 9th level spells. Xykon is some level of Epic (exact details being left to the side as being irrelevant).

I wouldn't want to place any bets on Recloak being unable to cast Epic spells by the time there would be a hypothetical showdown.

An Epic Cleric and an Epic Sorcerer is a scary scary SCARY combination. Hell, even 'only' a 17+ level Cleric and an Epic Level Sorcerer Lich is a scary enough on its own.

Try not to undersell them too much when constructing these scenarios.....

[Kish]

Besides, if V is that close with AMF up.. we already know Forcecage doesn't work in an AMF and I don't think a Sphere or Wall of Force would either.

Wall of Force says in the spell description that it will work in an anti-magic field. (Someone got banned for flaming Rich for not extending that to Forcecage, which has no such line but is described as similar to a Wall of Force.) The Sphere would be right out. That said, I think "won't block Xykon's epic spells" really makes the antimagic field tactic a non-starter; if there's a final battle, it's not going to consist of Vaarsuvius showing Xykon and all the nonoptimizers in the OotS universe how superior a mid-level wizard is to an epic sorcerer. (If it gives Vaarsuvius a bigger role than Haley I'll be kind of surprised.*)

*Missing-or-dodging-the-point posts about how weak rogues are incoming in 3...2...1...

[Keltest]

Wall of Force says in the spell description that it will work in an anti-magic field. (Someone got banned for flaming Rich for not extending that to Forcecage, which has no such line but is described as similar to a Wall of Force.) The Sphere would be right out. That said, I think "won't block Xykon's epic spells" really makes the antimagic field tactic a non-starter; if there's a final battle, it's not going to consist of Vaarsuvius showing Xykon and all the nonoptimizers in the OotS universe how superior a mid-level wizard is to an epic sorcerer. (If it gives Vaarsuvius a bigger role than Haley I'll be kind of surprised.*)

*Missing-or-dodging-the-point posts about how weak rogues are incoming in 3...2...1...

Blah blah rogues are terrible, blah blah bow damage, blah blah stupid thieves.

Now then, I can totally see V opening with AMV, only to get blasted to some other part of the dungeon by Xykon's epic magic.

[zimmerwald1915]

mid-level

Letting low-level be level 1 through level 7, letting mid-level be level 8 through level 14, and letting high-level be level 15 through 20, most of the Order has been high-level throughout Blood Runs in the Family and are definitely so now. Unless they are subjected to a great deal of level drains before the climax of the story, they will still be high-level at the time Xykon is destroyed.

[Kish]

Letting low-level be level 1 through level 7, letting mid-level be level 8 through level 14, and letting high-level be level 15 through 20

--a mid-level wizard can cast Antimagic Field, which makes one able to trump a thoroughly-epic sorcerer if Vaarsuvius can trump Xykon simply by casting Antimagic Field. That Vaarsuvius would have (but not have a use for, in that fight) higher-level spells is immaterial.

[zimmerwald1915]

--a mid-level wizard can cast Antimagic Field, which makes one able to trump a thoroughly-epic sorcerer if Vaarsuvius can trump Xykon simply by casting Antimagic Field.

Which would be a point totally lost on "the nonoptimizers" in the audience, never mind in-universe. Another point against this whole scenario, as if the thematic and character points weren't enough.

[SavageWombat]

Why not say, instead, that V has learned that - with Xykon's powers a mostly-known concern - V's best tactic is to focus on countering Xykon's spells and leave damage-dealing to Roy?

[Brendanicus]

Seeing that Xykon can outgun V, and that V's character arc has resulted in a more support-focused mentality, I'm sure (s)he won't go in evoking away, at least not on Xykon.

Now, MitD and Redcloak may end up feeling a bit more fireball, though I'm sure they can handle it.