Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

[Raven777]

Speaking of Paladins, Pathfinder has Hellknights! Of particular note, the Order of the Godclaw has Paladins of Iomedae and Inquisitors of Asmodeus working together for the Greater Good Law.

[Beowulf DW]

*looks at Sarenrae*
*looks at the occasions when she's lost her temper and the usual fallout*

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Sarenrae, to be honest. For a goddess of redemption, she has a nasty temper when that slow-burning fuse finally pops.

That being said, it was Dahak (evil dragon-god) who did it according to the dragons.

True, she did put the fires of the sun at the center of Golarion as an everlasting torment for the Rough Beast. She certainly lives up to the idea that "good is not nice," when it's clear that words won't work at all. That or maybe she's a living lesson about what happens when you do not-nice things to formerly nice people?

[Alleran]

Speaking of Paladins, Pathfinder has Hellknights! Of particular note, the Order of the Godclaw has Paladins of Iomedae and Inquisitors of Asmodeus working together for the Greater Good Law.

Read Iomedae's portrayal in Wrath of the Righteous? The way she acted in that she felt like Miko, except in some ways worse.

True, she did put the fires of the sun at the center of Golarion as an everlasting torment for the Rough Beast. She certainly lives up to the idea that "good is not nice," when it's clear that words won't work at all. That or maybe she's a living lesson about what happens when you do not-nice things to formerly nice people?

I was actually thinking about how she finally reacted when she blew a fuse at Gormuz "back in the day" for killing her Herald. Descending from the heavens, personally smiting the city with her flaming scimitar and turning it into a wasteland with the Pit of Gormuz that the Spawn use to reach the surface. Granted, she didn't exactly mean to go quite that far with the destruction and consequences, but still.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Read Iomedae's portrayal in Wrath of the Righteous? The way she acted in that she felt like Miko, except in some ways worse.

I'd just blame that on the obscenely bad writing in the later sections of that AP: Not once, but twice the DM is instructed to introduce an invincible, omnipotent NPC and use them to troll the players. At least it's in-character for a demon lord "ally" to do this (but railroading the PCs to go beg for her help is unforgivable), but using Iomedae for it just makes the writer look like an *******.

[Alleran]

I'd just blame that on the obscenely bad writing in the later sections of that AP: Not once, but twice the DM is instructed to introduce an invincible, omnipotent NPC and use them to troll the players.

Nocticula? She's hardly omnipotent. Aggravating, absolutely, but not invincible. By the time the player characters meet her, I wouldn't put it past them to have moderately decent odds of killing her.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Nocticula? She's hardly omnipotent. Aggravating, absolutely, but not invincible. By the time the player characters meet her, I wouldn't put it past them to have moderately decent odds of killing her.

Clarification: Intended invincible, omnipotent NPC. My test characters killed her in two rounds, but it's clear that the PCs aren't supposed to be able to touch her (notice how, unlike Deskari and Baphomet, the writer gives no indication on what should happen if the PCs challenge her and win).

[Alleran]

Clarification: Intended invincible, omnipotent NPC. My test characters killed her in two rounds, but it's clear that the PCs aren't supposed to be able to touch her (notice how, unlike Deskari and Baphomet, the writer gives no indication on what should happen if the PCs challenge her and win).

Ah. That makes a bit more sense - I took the "not supposed to be able to kill her" to be more a factor of using her as an ally, since she also appears in Book 6 (where any of the PCs could easily one-round her) and the aid she gives to the PCs is noted as having a follow-up then.

What were the test characters you used, out of interest?

[Craft (Cheese)]

Ah. That makes a bit more sense - I took the "not supposed to be able to kill her" to be more a factor of using her as an ally, since she also appears in Book 6 (where any of the PCs could easily one-round her) and the aid she gives to the PCs is noted as having a follow-up then.

What were the test characters you used, out of interest?

Transmuter wizard, Superstitious Barbarian (specced for pouncing), Cleric of Desna (a skillmonkey primarily but also a pretty capable Clericzilla), and a Saurian Druid (because Dinosaurs). The transmuter won initiative and dazed her with a Dazing Spell (DC 47 or thereabouts), then the Barb, Cleric, and Druid ripped her to shreds (regeneration 30 doesn't cut it when you've got 3 people doing 100+ damage *per attack* on you). She never even got to act. That's how most of the bossfights in that AP went tbh, just about nobody has immunity to daze and their saves don't scale fast enough to keep up with all the boosts to DC a mythic spellcaster who specializes in save-or-lose can get, so you can use the same stupid trick over and over to trivialize everything.

[Beowulf DW]

Transmuter wizard, Superstitious Barbarian (specced for pouncing), Cleric of Desna (a skillmonkey primarily but also a pretty capable Clericzilla), and a Saurian Druid (because Dinosaurs). The transmuter won initiative and dazed her with a Dazing Spell (DC 47 or thereabouts), then the Barb, Cleric, and Druid ripped her to shreds (regeneration 30 doesn't cut it when you've got 3 people doing 100+ damage *per attack* on you). She never even got to act. That's how most of the bossfights in that AP went tbh, just about nobody has immunity to daze and their saves don't scale fast enough to keep up with all the boosts to DC a mythic spellcaster who specializes in save-or-lose can get, so you can use the same stupid trick over and over to trivialize everything.

It's somewhat comforting to know that Paizo still hasn't quite come to grips with how powerful some characters can be relative to their adventure paths. It can allow us to compensate for the aforementioned crappy writing.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It's somewhat comforting to know that Paizo still hasn't quite come to grips with how powerful some characters can be relative to their adventure paths. It can allow us to compensate for the aforementioned crappy writing.

Well, the issue is that their game has an optimization ceiling that I'd argue is a bit harder to hit but lower than 3.5's (because 3.5's ceiling was infinite power), and they can't really plan for that level of minmaxing. New players have to be able to get through APs, too.


It would probably help if their game wasn't overly complicated with giant feat chains, FAQs that are errata but only sometimes, that they don't always use identical language for identical effects, and that (apparently) some rules like Sacred Geometry, because they are published in a smaller supplement, aren't always looked over by the design team.

*sigh* Sometimes I wonder if it would make more sense to call Paizo an adventure path company than a game publisher. Similar to how Games Workshop is really miniatures company and not a game company.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I actually agree; AP's shouldn't be designed under the assumption that the PC's are as highly optimized as my test characters were. Still though, they shouldn't assume that they aren't. WotR isn't even the worst example I know of; That would have to be Second Darkness. I swear, Alicavniss Vonnarc is The Illusive Man 2.0.

[Beowulf DW]

I actually agree; AP's shouldn't be designed under the assumption that the PC's are as highly optimized as my test characters were. Still though, they shouldn't assume that they aren't. WotR isn't even the worst example I know of; That would have to be Second Darkness. I swear, Alicavniss Vonnarc is The Illusive Man 2.0.

Oh, I agree, but I think that a few side bars with suggestions for when the PCs decide they've had enough of an allegedly important character might nice. A friend of mine once DMed an adventure path wherein the PCs killed an important NPC about 6 levels before they should have. Suddenly the AP had to be put on hold because that was the only NPC that could point them onwards and my friend had to come up with a way to continue the bread crumb trail.

[Coidzor]

^: Suggestions about what to do with plot-critical NPCs and redundancies for murderhoboing are good, aye. As are suggestions for how to ramp up the power level or scale it down as necessary.

And a base point that's ideally supposed to be challenging without insurmountable things like confronting low level characters with incorporeal threats that they can't avoid or flee from.

Read Iomedae's portrayal in Wrath of the Righteous? The way she acted in that she felt like Miko, except in some ways worse.

I was actually thinking about how she finally reacted when she blew a fuse at Gormuz "back in the day" for killing her Herald. Descending from the heavens, personally smiting the city with her flaming scimitar and turning it into a wasteland with the Pit of Gormuz that the Spawn use to reach the surface. Granted, she didn't exactly mean to go quite that far with the destruction and consequences, but still.

I guess they're going for a sorta Kiplingesque "The Female of the Species is More ****ing Insane than the Male?"

[Tanuki Tales]

Only on page 6 (so catching up), but as to "Failed Martyrdom", I feel like that explains the tragedy of Miko Miyazaki to a T. Maybe even "False Worship" as well, if you take that meaning as venerating a deity/deities/pantheon but in the wrong way.

[Todd Stewart]

Huh, I'm really not sure how I missed this thread in the first place.

Suffice to say I wrote the cosmology sections in the Inner Sea World Guide (and the 3.5 PFCS before that), the 'Great Beyond' cosmology sourcebook, and the third of the 'Book of the Damned' series. Most of my freelancing for Paizo has been on planar related material, and I've had a hand in a lot of the cosmology. I find it very much non-sucky, and in many ways a giant love letter to 2e Planescape, but that's just my opinion. :)

That being said, at least as far as material that I've worked on, I can certainly field any questions relating to the Pathfinder cosmology.

[123456789blaaa]

Huh, I'm really not sure how I missed this thread in the first place.

Suffice to say I wrote the cosmology sections in the Inner Sea World Guide (and the 3.5 PFCS before that), the 'Great Beyond' cosmology sourcebook, and the third of the 'Book of the Damned' series. Most of my freelancing for Paizo has been on planar related material, and I've had a hand in a lot of the cosmology. I find it very much non-sucky, and in many ways a giant love letter to 2e Planescape, but that's just my opinion. :)

That being said, at least as far as material that I've worked on, I can certainly field any questions relating to the Pathfinder cosmology.

You appear to be committing Thread Necromancy. The last time this thread was posted in before your post was August 13.

Afro started up the fifth of his planar questions thread series some time ago. Why not hop on over there? I have a bunch of Golarion fluff questions I can't really ask right now since Afro doesn't do Pathfinder.

[Vaynor]

You appear to be committing Thread Necromancy. The last time this thread was posted in before your post was August 13.

Afro started up the fifth of his planar questions thread series some time ago. Why not hop on over there? I have a bunch of Golarion fluff questions I can't really ask right now since Afro doesn't do Pathfinder.

The Red Towel: Indeed. Thread locked.