Animal intelligence of 0

[Drumbum42]

I have a 1st Ed AD&D question that someone else may know, but first a little background.

I have a Dwarven city, and I'm looking for a suitable subterranean mount for my dwarves. Using a charm spell you can train a great number of things that are not of opposing alignment. One of the creatures that may work is a Subterranean Lizard, but it's intelligence is "Non-" or 0.

So my question is, can you train an animal with an intelligence of 0? How stupid is 0? Is it on par with ant or bee Int? I mean it's classified as "large" so it's must be slightly smarter then a bug. And if it's too dumb to be trained, would a permanent charm spell tame it?

Thanks in advance!

[Angelalex242]

That's actually a misprint.

Int 0 or Int - is actually Zombie/Construct only. Living creatures, even vermin, still have Int 1. Or they should.

[Yora]

There's actually wide range of animals listed as having intelligence 0. It seems all insects, fish, reptiles, amphibians, and slimes are rated as such.

Except snakes and spiders, for some indiscernable reasons.

[Thrudd]

Animal Friendship is the spell you're looking for (1st level druid). It applies to any animal that is not above semi-intelligent level, and it is permanent. You can teach the creature one trick for each point of intelligence it has.
Animal intelligence is 1. Semi-intelligent is 2-4. I would think a lizard is definitely of animal intelligence, regardless of what the book says. Non-0 intelligence is like green slime. Now the only question is, how do your dwarves get access to druid spells?


If you're the DM creating this world, and you want your Dwarves to train lizards as mounts, then just say it is so. You don't need a rule or a spell to make it possible. There are no hard rules regarding the mundane process of training animals. It's a thing the DM would have to decide based on common sense.

[hamlet]

The charm spell does not train creatures. In fact, it doesn't work on animals. Only humans or humanoids, and then it makes these beings your friends, not slaves.

Animals with 0 or non-intelligence aren't necessarily stupid, just too alien in outlook to train by humans.

[LibraryOgre]

Whereas I'd allow them to be trained, but they're slow to learn. I agree, they probably should've been noted as 1, but they're subject to Animal Friendship. Stupid as they are, I'd make the training time double and reduce the kinds of things they can learn by half (mostly "don't eat me" and "carry me into battle")

[Toofey]

I actually see this as one of those charming little inconsistencies you get due to the high level of editorial control at early TSR. I would chalk this up to the person who wrote the monster being of the opinions that animals/animal like monsters have "no intelligence" because they don't have human like intelligence.

I would guess their intent was to say" it's just an animal and just works on instinct, as opposed to saying the animal was particularly stupid for an animal.

For spell effects etc... (if relevant I'm not sure how this would work) I would make this argument to the DM and ask them to assign an INT for the animal. But I really doubt that the author actually meant the 0 as a relative score.

(I mean srsly what would have a 0, clams?)

[Drumbum42]

Sorry, I meant charm monster. I tent to agree with the general consensus though, while they can be trained doesn't mean they should be trained. They most likely would not be the "faithful steed" type, but more likely to eat the rider when charm monster wore off. They seemed to be a great choice, except the fact that they are rather violent lizards, I hoped to breed that out through magic or selective breeding. Either way I should probably consult a DM.....

And about the intelligence of 0, Gygax never gave a description of what each intelligence level really meant. He probably assumed it was self-exclamatory, as he probably never though characters would try to domesticate random monsters. It's not like there are any great kingdoms of Dwarves in the original world of Greyhawk, so dwarves riding Subterranean Lizards wasn't a big concern.

What about magical means though? Such as artificially raising their intelligence to 2, then using charm monster or possibly some custom spell or magic item to permanently subdue them? Maybe make a sub-race like dogs vs wolves? I might be able to pitch that to a DM, but generally when I get too creative DMs get irritated, so I'll need a solid justification as to why this is possible. Like will a magically increased intelligence pass to the next generation? Or will that require some sort of wish spell?

[Lord Torath]

Anyone ever go through D1-3, Descent to the Depths of the Earth/Vault of the Drow? The drow had domesticated subterranean lizards to use as mounts and beasts of burden. They didn't need constant charm effects, and the "mules" were able to be controlled by whip. Not certain how the "warhorses" were controlled, but it was probably similar to the way surface warhorses are controlled, with (spiked) bit and bridle, and (sharp) spurs (being drow).

BECMI had a Creature Catalog that featured "Rockhome Lizards" that dwarves had domesticated to pull carts and such.

So probably no extraordinary measures will be required (unless you, as the DM, decide they will be! )

[CE DM]

I have a 1st Ed AD&D question that someone else may know, but first a little background.

I have a Dwarven city, and I'm looking for a suitable subterranean mount for my dwarves. Using a charm spell you can train a great number of things that are not of opposing alignment. One of the creatures that may work is a Subterranean Lizard, but it's intelligence is "Non-" or 0.

So my question is, can you train an animal with an intelligence of 0?

No

How stupid is 0? Is it on par with ant or bee Int?

pretty much, or perhaps, worse. Giant ants have a 1, for example. Giant Bees have INT 5-7.

I mean it's classified as "large" so it's must be slightly smarter then a bug.

One would think...I'd be inclined to give them an INT of 1, if I had made them up, but that's for the DM to rule on. INT 0/non can be an advantage in D&D/AD&D, sometimes a good one.

And if it's too dumb to be trained, would a permanent charm spell tame it?

sure, although it's only going to be "tame" with regards to the one who has it charmed. charm monster has a duration in weeks (save each week to break), but it's not "permanent" per se. animal friendship won't work as it is (needs INT 1-4)

Thanks in advance!

You are welcome.

The D series mentions: "Pack Lizards: These creatures are a breed of subterranean lizard - slow, sturdy, strong, stupid, and not easily panicked. The statistics on these creatures are:
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 6+6
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SIZE: L (15’ long, broad backed)
These creatures seldom will attack anything unless harmed first. Their loads are carried on special back harnesses." D1 pg 5

although it's not said, I'd say they have an INT of 1.

From D3 page 9: "Lizard Mounts are a species of subterranean lizards which the Dark Elven nobles breed. Each lizard has AC 5, moves 15", has 4+4 hit dice, and will attack by biting for 2-8 points of damage. These creatures are as large (L) as a small horse, with longish legs for a lizard. For purposes of mounted attack, treat them as medium horses when a lance is wielded from atop one."

Those seem useful for you

[Drumbum42]

The D series mentions: "Pack Lizards: These creatures are a breed of subterranean lizard - slow, sturdy, strong, stupid, and not easily panicked. The statistics on these creatures are:
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 6+6
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SIZE: L (15’ long, broad backed)
These creatures seldom will attack anything unless harmed first. Their loads are carried on special back harnesses." D1 pg 5

although it's not said, I'd say they have an INT of 1.

From D3 page 9: "Lizard Mounts are a species of subterranean lizards which the Dark Elven nobles breed. Each lizard has AC 5, moves 15", has 4+4 hit dice, and will attack by biting for 2-8 points of damage. These creatures are as large (L) as a small horse, with longish legs for a lizard. For purposes of mounted attack, treat them as medium horses when a lance is wielded from atop one."

Those seem useful for you

Hmm... that seems doable. I'll have to read some stuff from D1&2, I think I actually have those, just never played them. I may need to raid a Dark Elf city and steal them, as their move and hit die are different, not sure if I can breed that. BUT, at least this proves that it's possible, with some work.

If that's not possible the only other thing I can do is tame Rock Reptiles, they're slower and can't walk on ceilings, but easier to train.

Thanks Lord Torath and CE DM on the Dungeon Module tip!

[CE DM]

You're welcome, again, but you want module D3 & not D1-2 so much. Easy enough to find online if you don't have it.

[Angelalex242]

Well, int 1 is a 'dumb animal', like a sheep.

Int 2-4 is a 'smart animal', like dogs, dolphins, horses, and so on.