Gotham (TV series)

[Brother Oni]

Bringing a small ray of light to an otherwise depressing day: Fox is bringing Batman's origin story to the small screen, focusing on newly badged detective, James Gordan.

Trailer.

Thus far it seems interesting, although it probably won't have the legs to go more than one or two seasons.

[BRC]

There was another thread about this a while back.

Personally, I'm curious. It CAN be a good show, but it needs to be a good show on it's own merits. If all they have is "In ten years or so these characters will become Batman Villains", with lots of dramatic chords as Nigma sketches question marks, or a tiny Poison Ivy hands out "Save the Rainforest" brochures.

They can't make an entire show around hinting that the bad stand-up comedian in the background of one scene MIGHT ONE DAY BE THE JOKER GUYZ!

[Kitten Champion]

There was another thread about this a while back.

Personally, I'm curious. It CAN be a good show, but it needs to be a good show on it's own merits. If all they have is "In ten years or so these characters will become Batman Villains", with lots of dramatic chords as Nigma sketches question marks, or a tiny Poison Ivy hands out "Save the Rainforest" brochures.

They can't make an entire show around hinting that the bad stand-up comedian in the background of one scene MIGHT ONE DAY BE THE JOKER GUYZ!

Yeah, the premise could get stale pretty quickly.

[DigoDragon]

I'm hoping this show will break away from some of the established canon and build it's own legend (Sorta like what Smallville did). Design some new villains, focus on Gordon and Gotham PD, don't bother with including Bruce as a regular in the mix. That sort of thing.

[BRC]

I'm hoping this show will break away from some of the established canon and build it's own legend (Sorta like what Smallville did). Design some new villains, focus on Gordon and Gotham PD, don't bother with including Bruce as a regular in the mix. That sort of thing.

I think they already need to be deviating from Canon for the timeline to work. IIRC they mentioned Rene Montoya is already going to be on the force. In the comics she's significantly younger than Gordon, so that doesn't work.

[Dienekes]

It's interesting how it will work, as the point of Batman is to combat the complete degradation of Gotham. Meaning focusing on Gordon would mean we have to watch our protagonist utterly fail to make a difference for however many seasons the show airs. Which could be a hard sell for a show.

But then again, I did watch all of the Wire, which has the whole concept of, "Drug wars are bad, come watch why they're bad and how nothing anyone does actually matters."

I'd honestly be more interested, I think if there wasn't such a focus on famous Batvillains in the trailer. Pick Gordon, Bruce, and one mobster style villain (personally I'd pick Penguin as he can rather easily be recreated as a more down to Earth mob criminal and is often much older than Bruce) and just watch as these characters react and participate in Gothams steady corruption.

[BRC]

Personally, I think the show will get better the less Bruce Wayne is in it. All Bruce can do is brood, be sad, and hint that he might one day become Batman.
We KNOW Bruce Wayne is going to become Batman. He's going to sit in his house and brood and eventually go off to train and become Batman.

[DigoDragon]

I'd honestly be more interested, I think if there wasn't such a focus on famous Batvillains in the trailer. Pick Gordon, Bruce, and one mobster style villain (personally I'd pick Penguin as he can rather easily be recreated as a more down to Earth mob criminal and is often much older than Bruce) and just watch as these characters react and participate in Gothams steady corruption.

Personally, I think the show will get better the less Bruce Wayne is in it. All Bruce can do is brood, be sad, and hint that he might one day become Batman.
We KNOW Bruce Wayne is going to become Batman. He's going to sit in his house and brood and eventually go off to train and become Batman.

If there was a 'Like' button, consider it clicked. Twice.
I'm all for these ideas.

[Calemyr]

Count me in the "Intriguing potential, astoundingly easy to screw up" camp.

So you take "the one good cop" and place him in a city where nobody wants him. His peers are either out to turn him as corrupt as they are, despise him for holding his morals even in a cesspit like this, or resent him as a threat to their lifestyle. The crooks see him as naive or powerless. The citizenry completely fail to see a difference between him and the crowd of tarnished badges around him. He has no support, he has no friends, he has nothing... well, almost nothing. He does have one thing, a burning drive to fix this diseased city, and to do it by the book. So he sifts through the muck and the crap and any victory he can get, no matter how small. It will be hard, so very, very hard, but he must persevere. He is the first spark of a purifying flame that will spread through Gotham, and what little good he can manage, what few friends he can find and what few victories he can achieve, will make the space for the Bat that will follow.

But Gordon is not the Bat. He doesn't wear a mask, he wears a badge. The criminals know his name, and know where he lives. There is no hiding, no charade, no turning back, and none of the dirty little shortcuts the Bat uses to circumvent the Law in the name of Justice. Every victory is earned, and every loss costs just that much more. How far can the Law bend before it's broken? How much muck can a man wade through before he becomes dirty? An in a city where there are no good choices, how many bad choices can a cop make before he becomes corrupt?

As I said, it could be an interesting potential. They Waynes could even be a part of the story (because it's always been Lt. Gordon who consoles young Bruce in any version I've seen), friends and supporters of the isolated cop, only to be brutally and senselessly cut down and leave behind a lonely and traumatized little boy. And the story is set in a world that is as dark and corrupt as realistically possible. No supervillains, no giggling maniacs, just a city that is rife with all the common, everyday evils that corrupt the soul and the seeds, only just starting to be planted, that will grow into the caped crusader and his gallery of rogues.

Of course, there's a 85% chance that it'll be crap. Or is that too optimistic?

[BRC]

Count me in the "Intriguing potential, astoundingly easy to screw up" camp.

So you take "the one good cop" and place him in a city where nobody wants him. His peers are either out to turn him as corrupt as they are, despise him for holding his morals even in a cesspit like this, or resent him as a threat to their lifestyle. The crooks see him as naive or powerless. The citizenry completely fail to see a difference between him and the crowd of tarnished badges around him. He has no support, he has no friends, he has nothing... well, almost nothing. He does have one thing, a burning drive to fix this diseased city, and to do it by the book. So he sifts through the muck and the crap and any victory he can get, no matter how small. It will be hard, so very, very hard, but he must persevere. He is the first spark of a purifying flame that will spread through Gotham, and what little good he can manage, what few friends he can find and what few victories he can achieve, will make the space for the Bat that will follow.

But Gordon is not the Bat. He doesn't wear a mask, he wears a badge. The criminals know his name, and know where he lives. There is no hiding, no charade, no turning back, and none of the dirty little shortcuts the Bat uses to circumvent the Law in the name of Justice. Every victory is earned, and every loss costs just that much more. How far can the Law bend before it's broken? How much muck can a man wade through before he becomes dirty? An in a city where there are no good choices, how many bad choices can a cop make before he becomes corrupt?

As I said, it could be an interesting potential. They Waynes could even be a part of the story (because it's always been Lt. Gordon who consoles young Bruce in any version I've seen), friends and supporters of the isolated cop, only to be brutally and senselessly cut down and leave behind a lonely and traumatized little boy. And the story is set in a world that is as dark and corrupt as realistically possible. No supervillains, no giggling maniacs, just a city that is rife with all the common, everyday evils that corrupt the soul and the seeds, only just starting to be planted, that will grow into the caped crusader and his gallery of rogues.

Of course, there's a 85% chance that it'll be crap. Or is that too optimistic?

The Pilot is going to deal with the Wayne's murder, so I doubt we'll see Thomas and Martha as anything except corpses, or maybe a few minutes of them leaving the theater before Joe Chill shows up.

Part of the issue with the "Lone Cop Out To Clean Up The Streets" is that we know how the story ends. We know Gordon Fails.

Or does he. I don't know the exact canon timeline (Which is irrelevant here anyway, since they're not sticking to any one canon) Gordon becomes Commissioner. Which means he makes enough of an impact to get some support. SOMEBODY is willing to back this detective who refuses to let Gotham bring him down to it's level.

[Calemyr]

The Pilot is going to deal with the Wayne's murder, so I doubt we'll see Thomas and Martha as anything except corpses, or maybe a few minutes of them leaving the theater before Joe Chill shows up.

Part of the issue with the "Lone Cop Out To Clean Up The Streets" is that we know how the story ends. We know Gordon Fails.

Or does he. I don't know the exact canon timeline (Which is irrelevant here anyway, since they're not sticking to any one canon) Gordon becomes Commissioner. Which means he makes enough of an impact to get some support. SOMEBODY is willing to back this detective who refuses to let Gotham bring him down to it's level.

Well, that's a pity. Make it a 90% chance, then. I would have much rather them given us a rare chance to see the Waynes in a new light. Make us like them, even though we know they're destined to die, so that it hurts even when we knew it was coming. Make them some of the only people supporting him in the early days, the good people that hold him on the path when he can't find it.

But Gordon doesn't necessarily fail. He isn't fantastically successful, but Gordon's crusade has at least some critical impact on the Batman. Somehow he becomes Commissioner, placing an honest man at the top spot, with enough support that he can get away with cooperating with a vigilante, at least at an off-the-books level. Given how bad the city is supposed to be at that point, this alone is an astonishing achievement. Gotham could be used to tell parts of the story that so often get glossed over.

[TheEmerged]

File me under "Intrigued But Not Hopeful". It's going to run into the same problem with the lack of tension most other prequels have to face. It's only real chance is to throw continuity out the window early and make it clear they're going their own path.

I'm actually reminded of a script I read once that started out looking like Just Another Robin Hood Movie... except you find out about the end of Act 1 that Robin is the *villain* of the piece, not merely a criminal. They're going to have to do something similar here, I think (like killing Bruce off before, say, episode 9 or so). If all they're doing is giving us all the villain origins, it's not going to make it.

[BRC]

The other option is that they make a cop drama (Not a police procedural), using the comic-book roots as fuel for plotlines and an excuse to go big without an urge to ground things in realism. A semi-fantastical cop show. If we accept that this is a world where, someday, a woman will gain the ability to control plants, then they can get away with Gordon and the GPD going up against a mad scientist with a weather machine or something. Kind of a "Batman would handle this, but he's 12 years old, so how does the GPD handle it" situation.

They can make this a good show, perhaps even a great one. The question is will they realize that. The story of Oswald Cobblepot using cunning and ruthlessness to rise through the ranks of the Gotham Underworld could be an interesting and compelling story. The story of Edward Nigma, a genius CSI, developing his compulsive urge to prove himself smarter than the detectives he works with, and later against, could be a compelling story. Doctor Leslie Thompkins dealing with the death of her good friends The Waynes, ect ect.


BUT, all those plotlines would have to stand just fine if you could swap the names out. Oswald Cobblepot's story can't rely on the fact that he's Oswald Cobblepot.

This is why I'm worried about the inclusion of child characters like Selina, Pamela (They've named her "Ivy Pepper" here for some reason), and Bruce. There isn't really room to tell interesting stories about them besides "THEY WILL ONE DAY BE INTERESTING!"

What I'm worried about is that they're advertising this as if it's purpose is to satisfy our curiosity about these character's origins. We're not really curious about these character's origins, especially not this alternate universe take on these origins. These are good characters with potential for interesting stories. But the lazy option will be to just tell the basic plot beats we already know are going to happen (Cobblepot rises in the ranks, Selina becomes a thief with a heart of gold, Victor Fries falls in love with the beautiful Nora), without bothering to move beyond that.

"in this episode JIM GORDON is temped to take a bribe, HE DOES NOT!"
"in this episode BRUCE WAYNE comes to an important realization, CRIME IS BAD BUT SO IS KILLING!"
"in this episode OSWALD COBBLEPOT decides that BIRDS ARE COOL!"

"CHARACTER takes a step towards BECOMING THE CHARACTER YOU KNOW ABOUT" is in of itself not a compelling story. It's a good BASE for a story, but on its own it's nothing.

[Ebon_Drake]

So Comics Alliance are lukewarm about the pilot. Pretty typical for Comics Alliance though, they seem to hate most comic book TV shows. Still, renaming Pamela Isley to Ivy Pepper? Not cool. Calling her dad Mario Pepper? Bizarre and hilarious.

They can't make an entire show around hinting that the bad stand-up comedian in the background of one scene MIGHT ONE DAY BE THE JOKER GUYZ!

You know what would be amazing (read: terrible, but I'd find it entertaining)? If every single episode had a brief scene that seemingly sets up the Joker's origin, but the scenes all contradict each other and each of the proto-Jokers is played by a different actor. They could string it out for a whole season or more before finally having the actual Joker appear and be played by another different actor. Dear Fox executives: call me, we'll do lunch. Bring your cheque book.

[Tiki Snakes]

You know what would be amazing (read: terrible, but I'd find it entertaining)? If every single episode had a brief scene that seemingly sets up the Joker's origin, but the scenes all contradict each other and each of the proto-Jokers is played by a different actor. They could string it out for a whole season or more before finally having the actual Joker appear and be played by another different actor. Dear Fox executives: call me, we'll do lunch. Bring your cheque book.

I would approve of this.

[Prime32]

They're going to have to do something similar here, I think (like killing Bruce off before, say, episode 9 or so).

Time travel. They'll probably resort to time travel to bring in some of the more popular characters at some point. Or use the Flashpoint version of Batman. Or both.

[Kitten Champion]

Clearly if they're going to make a Batman prequel-ish-thingy it should be to the 1960's Adam West Batman series. With Before Catwoman Eartha Kit, Before Penguin Burgess Meredith, and Before Joker Cesar Romero. You could use the old sets and put in lots of puns.

This the Gotham I want to see.

[Metahuman1]

I dunno, personally, I feel like there not going in a direction that's gonna be good for making a solid show for a serious length of time.

If we had Batman Active and we hear about stuff second hand that he's done or once in a blue moon see him chat with Gordon on a roof top or do something in the back ground, and focused the rest of the time on the cops dealing with the city and his Rogues Gallery when he's not dealing with them form time to time, that's cool. Or if were weren't seeing any of his Rogues Gallery except dedicated Mafia boss types like Rupert Thorn or Black Mask, and those were what young Jim Gordon was trying to beat, that would be cool.

So, I guess I'll try it but I'm not holding out a lot of hope on this one.

[Pokonic]

The other option is that they make a cop drama (Not a police procedural), using the comic-book roots as fuel for plotlines and an excuse to go big without an urge to ground things in realism. A semi-fantastical cop show. If we accept that this is a world where, someday, a woman will gain the ability to control plants, then they can get away with Gordon and the GPD going up against a mad scientist with a weather machine or something. Kind of a "Batman would handle this, but he's 12 years old, so how does the GPD handle it" situation.

They can make this a good show, perhaps even a great one. The question is will they realize that. The story of Oswald Cobblepot using cunning and ruthlessness to rise through the ranks of the Gotham Underworld could be an interesting and compelling story. The story of Edward Nigma, a genius CSI, developing his compulsive urge to prove himself smarter than the detectives he works with, and later against, could be a compelling story. Doctor Leslie Thompkins dealing with the death of her good friends The Waynes, ect ect.

This is probably the best we could hope for. Hopefully, the Court of Owls could show up at one point or another, or is at least hinted to, because it's the one really sinister extranormal organization that's native to the city that didn't spring up during Bruce's adulthood.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly I think having some stuff with Selina would be interesting. A street urchin with stealth and freerunning capabilities, acting as an informant for multiple criminals or perhaps taken under the wing by one (who I think would be an original character, but I don't have a ton of Batman knowledge) who teaches her the skills she'll use as Catwoman.

There's really not much to do with Bruce or Pam though.

[Dienekes]

Honestly I think having some stuff with Selina would be interesting. A street urchin with stealth and freerunning capabilities, acting as an informant for multiple criminals or perhaps taken under the wing by one (who I think would be an original character, but I don't have a ton of Batman knowledge) who teaches her the skills she'll use as Catwoman.

There's really not much to do with Bruce or Pam though.

Pam would just be a girl who decides to go for her PHD in botany or whatever the study of plants would be. If you really want to make a statement with the character you can do a suppressed homosexual arc, but honestly I generally find those rather hamhanded and boring. Though that may just be because I've watched a lot of them recently.

Bruce though, canonically (for awhile anyway, I honestly don't know what's what since the universal reboot a few years ago) he started his training to be Bats by this time. Learning the entire Gotham city streets, infiltrating gangs, and joining up with officers a few times to stop petty crimes. Mind you, he did all of this under various aliases, but it's there. Hell, you could probably do a whole show focusing on his relationship with Alfred going through all this stuff. There's a lot more you can do with Bruce than just brooding around. It's a troubled young kid going through the most important moment of his life, that would define him until he died. Off the top of my head I can think of several character arcs to go with a character like that. Not saying they're any good, mind you, as I'm not a writer (or at least not a talented one). But get some professionals on it and you could definitely do something.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Bruce though, canonically (for awhile anyway, I honestly don't know what's what since the universal reboot a few years ago) he started his training to be Bats by this time. Learning the entire Gotham city streets, infiltrating gangs, and joining up with officers a few times to stop petty crimes. Mind you, he did all of this under various aliases, but it's there. Hell, you could probably do a whole show focusing on his relationship with Alfred going through all this stuff. There's a lot more you can do with Bruce than just brooding around. It's a troubled young kid going through the most important moment of his life, that would define him until he died. Off the top of my head I can think of several character arcs to go with a character like that. Not saying they're any good, mind you, as I'm not a writer (or at least not a talented one). But get some professionals on it and you could definitely do something.

Yeah I don't really know much about Bruce's training (I've basically just played Arkham City and watched two seasons of Batman Beyond, which I might get around to the last one of after watching the two seasons of The Venture Bros that are on Netflix). I just figured that if he did start his training immediately, it would be the occasional cutaway scene to him learning martial arts and studying technology around the world. But yeah, being on the streets of Gotham and, even when just learning the stuff I mentioned, his interactions with Alfred could really provide material.

[Dragonexx]

If you play around with timelines a bit, Black Mask could make a decent villain for a season. Perhaps they'll have several villains debue early?

Also, though I would like it to, I seriously doubt they'll make this tie in with Arrow and Flash.

[Brother Oni]

There was another thread about this a while back.

Ooops, my bad. I looked through the last three or so pages, but didn't see anything.

Kind of a "Batman would handle this, but he's 12 years old, so how does the GPD handle it" situation.

So sort of like Torchwood's 'Children of the Earth' series with "The Doctor would handle this, but he's away, so how does Earth handle it", to which the answer is 'Very badly and with great sacrifice'.

In any case, this autumn looks to be either very interesting or incredibly dire as the Constantine TV series is also starting up in October.

[Hopeless]

Makes me wonder what would happen if the war they're all talking about is because when the Wayne's were killed they unknowingly eliminated the secret head of the Council of Owls, Thomas Wayne himself!

Now use that as a revelation near the end of the first season, might help boost ratings especially if Bruce's training was actually being assisted with a view for him to join the Council only to turn into its greatest adversary...

Gordon's career is helped because he's seen as a calming influence on young Bruce, after all they don't want him too unstable to be of any use to them and meanwhile the criminals run amok because of the power vacuum they're all striving to fill...

Well I'd have rather seen the first season show the influence the Wayne's had on Gotham rather than have their deaths be in the pilot.

Have them killed in either the second to or last episode to set up season 2 maybe have Gordon pick up on leads as Thomas Wayne helps him without him knowing it explaining how he made Lieutenant.

I don't really have high hopes for Gotham but that just leaves them plenty of room to surprise me...

Constantine has potential, not sure I like the sudden change in their pilot since that doesn't bode well for the season if they're not ready by now.

Flash... looks the best of the bunch, but tied to Arrow it should do better, as I haven't heard anything about Gotham to make me think otherwise I hope they've thought this through.

I actually like the 60's Batman...

[jesley]

Gotham t.v. series has been announced to release on 22 of September,2014. So waiting for the Pilot episode to release, my expectations are much higher from this show.

[Benthesquid]

Just watched the first episode. Immediate impression- geez, Penguin is creepy.

[BRC]

Partway through the first episode.Specifically, about 20 minutes in. Some opinions so far.

Spoiler

Show

This show is either going to become great or terrible.

Right now it's terrible, it's trying to find its feet and shove worldbuilding down our throats. Its showing off it's cast of Baby Villains, and in some cases doing a really bad job of it.

So you have Edward Nygma as a CSI tech, and you want him to do a bit where he asks questions rather than just telling people answers.
Okay, that works. Have him start with a question, then have Bullock shut him down, indicating that this is something he does a lot. Character trait established.

DON'T have him do the whole 'Question" thing THREE TIMES. That's not a quirk, that implies he's literally incapable of talking without asking questions. Sell me that he's a CSI tech and a person BEFORE you sell me that he's the future-riddler.


That said, the show is billing itself as a Batman Prequel. But, in their rush to play in the Batman Sandbox, the writers have written themselves out of anything approaching any version of Batman. Joe Chill was supposed to be some random desperate mugger, I'm not even halfway through episode 1 and they've already got him as some sort of hitman. Renee Montoya is supposed to be a few decades younger than Jim Gordon, here she's older. Barbara just showed up when I stopped watching, but I take it she's Jim's sister rather than his daughter now?

My point is, you can't sell your show as a "Batman Prequel", where you see familiar characters years before they became the characters we know, and at the same time set things up so that these characters are all but incompatible with their supposed "Future" versions.

Anybody who knows the name "Renee Montoya" is going to know her as working under a grey-haired, mustachioed Jim Gordon. You can't say that this Montoya is supposed to be a younger version of that Montoya, when she's older and more experienced then Jim.

It's not really a Bad thing necessarily, but the show is definitely counting on name drops, and the only people who get the name drops will be the ones bothered by the inconsistencies.

[Brother Oni]

Bah, Channel 5 aren't starting showing this until the middle of October.

[BRC]

Bah, Channel 5 aren't starting showing this until the middle of October.

I don't know where you live, but it's on Hulu if you can get that.

Having finished the episode

Spoiler

Show

It grew on me in the back half, once they got all the "HEY LOOK AT THIS CHARACTER YOU KNOW!" stuff out of the way.

Specifically, two characters: Harvey Bullock and Carmine Falcone.

The theme of the story is that Gotham is corrupt down to the core. Corruption and crime are not just rampant, they're Systemic. Harvey doesn't embrace that system because he's a bad person, it's just that he surrendered to it long ago.
Even his conversation with Mooney. He appeals to the system, "If you kill my partner, I have to come after you".

That final scene on the pier is probably going to define the show for a while. Bullock has surrendered himself to the system mind, body, and soul, while Gordon is forced to pantomime the corruption he needs to survive long enough to clean things up, all without compromising his principles.


And then there is Falcone, the ultimate enforcer of the System, who walks in and blow Mooney's men away for daring to cross his authority. "There are RULES" he says. They're not the right rules, but they exist.

And that's how the show can be great, with all the characters as rebels against the Rules that protect people like Mooney and Falcone. Penguin is a rebel because he wants to replace them, Gordon is a rebel because he wants to put them away.