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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gotham (TV series)

    Hmm, if done right it could be interesting. Have Gorden the main character, and as the years pass we see him winning small victories here and there, but the city just keeps getting worse. Corruption is growing as the cops around him get dirty, the judges become bought and paid for, and the crime families run the city. Gordon and a couple of his friends on the force do their best and sometimes win, but in general we watch the city slowly sink into the muck it becomes when batman arrives. If it lasts long enough, Batman ends up being like Angel from the early season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He shows up, drops a few clues, then vanishes again. No bat signal yet, no trust between them, just a cop trying his best to keep the city from falling apart, slowly starting to adjust to the vigilante in his midst. Sometimes he and his men solve the crime, other times he shows up and finds the bad guys tied up already. Maybe deal with that too. What sort of legal ramifications are there for a vigilante catching the bad guys in the act and leaving them at the scene of the crime?
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    I don't know where you live, but it's on Hulu if you can get that.
    I live in the UK, so can't watch Hulu without some proxy shenanigans to redirect my location.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2014-09-23 at 03:37 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    My thoughts on the show:
    Spoiler
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    It's a wonderful setting for a crime drama, but ultimately it feels hampered by the license rather then aided by it. Do we get anything out of Oswald being Penguin rather than some geek of a mobster whose future stays unknown? Catwoman as silent observer to all the events in a role that would have high-school literature teachers wetting themselves? (compare to the billboard of Dr. T. J. Eckleburg in Great Gatsby, or that sign with an eye in The Sound and the Fury) Did the girl in the apartment HAVE to be Ivy?

    When you get to the non-shtick characters of Gordon, Falcone, and Bullock the show really looks like it has potential. These are characters with actual motivation and personalities, and they play off them well (Bullock in particular shows himself to be a bit deeper than he seems at the start of the show, even if he's still neck-deep in the corruption). I'd include Oswald in there as well but he just seems too burdened by having a sigh saying "Penguin" hung around his neck.

    Still, this was the first episode, and I imagine they felt the need to be a bit heavy-handed to establish that this is Gotham. Also, I don't think there's a single show I love that didn't have a very rocky start before they found their stride (see: first 15 episodes of Agents of SHIELD or season 1 of Stargate). End verdict: the show hasn't won me yet but I'll give them more chances. Particularly since there nothing in their timeslot I'd be interested in watching instead.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    It was better than I expected it to be.

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    Good performances by the young Jim Gordon and the cynic Harvey Bullock. Falcone was excellent as well.

    I think most people hit the main potential concern. It looks like it may be playing the "Look, we're going to be Batman. Here's all your favorite villains!" card a little too heavily. Let's do a list (note: I'm not a huge batman fan so I may have missed a few). Just in the premier we saw:
    Poison Ivy, Penguin, Riddler, Falcone (reoccurring in comics often enough to be considered), Cat Woman, Solomon Grundy (reference only), and Joker (presumably). With the addition of Fish Mooney (new villain), that's 8 villains in the premier alone. This universe will get very crowded very quick if they keep that up.

    I think I would have preferred a little slower appearance of some of the villains. Pick 2 or 3 for the premier. Maybe one more for the next episode. Then do a good job of fleshing them out. But as it was, it felt a little rushed.

    I see potential and I will keep watching. I think if they slow down just a hair, and accept that they aren't Batman, it will be really good.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    It was better than I expected it to be.

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    Good performances by the young Jim Gordon and the cynic Harvey Bullock. Falcone was excellent as well.

    I think most people hit the main potential concern. It looks like it may be playing the "Look, we're going to be Batman. Here's all your favorite villains!" card a little too heavily. Let's do a list (note: I'm not a huge batman fan so I may have missed a few). Just in the premier we saw:
    Poison Ivy, Penguin, Riddler, Falcone (reoccurring in comics often enough to be considered), Cat Woman, Solomon Grundy (reference only), and Joker (presumably). With the addition of Fish Mooney (new villain), that's 8 villains in the premier alone. This universe will get very crowded very quick if they keep that up.

    I think I would have preferred a little slower appearance of some of the villains. Pick 2 or 3 for the premier. Maybe one more for the next episode. Then do a good job of fleshing them out. But as it was, it felt a little rushed.

    I see potential and I will keep watching. I think if they slow down just a hair, and accept that they aren't Batman, it will be really good.
    Spoiler
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    To be fair, only three of those (Falcone, Penguin, Fish Mooney) seem likely to be relevant antagonists in the immediate future, and they're all solidly part of the same "Mob runs Gotham," conflict. I think the rest were just meant to be easter eggs/early groundwork for future storylines. Except Selina, who'll be important, but probably not out and out antagonistic

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    I think they really over did it on showing the origins of canon characters in this, Was Ivy in anyway necessary? no she shouldn't have been in that episode might as well have called her Annie. Riddler? no he also wasn't necessary and he was really annoying.

    Penguin actually served something of a plot point so he's fine, Obviously Falcone was a villain in Gotham long before Batman came into being so he fits perfectly, and I'll give Catwoman a pass because she's always had a connection with Batman. But overall it seems like they stuffed a lot of Easter eggs just for attention.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    But overall it seems like they stuffed a lot of Easter eggs just for attention.
    In a TV pilot? Say it ain't so! I mean that's what I suspect the reason for them doing that is. They need ratings and they need them now because Fox will have their finger on the cancellation button from the opening credits. Effing Fox.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    I'll give this a pass.

    I'll accept that they stuffed in Baby Villains because it's a TV pilot. But there are warning signs to a more systemic sucktitude that will go beyond just rocky pilot requirements:

    (1) Misnaming Poison Ivy. There's no excuse for this other than the same reason as "Oh, your name is Robin? That's a nice name." I ***hated*** that so much.

    (2) Killing off the Waynes. I'd shoot all the idiots (and their wives and leave their orphaned sons bawling on the ground) who thought this is a good idea. In order to show you "LOOK THIS IS CRIME ALLEY GUYS!!" the show killed off 2 characters whose lives and eventual deaths held so much amazing plot/ drama/ empathy/ characterization potential, and replaced it with a murder scene before we care, and then with a brooding child who we've already seen numerous times in movies, and who realistically can't do anything important at this age and point in time.
    This decision, more than anything else, signals that the writing team has no season-long vision of what they're doing. There are so many reasons why this is a bad choice, I don't know where to begin.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post

    (2) Killing off the Waynes. I'd shoot all the idiots (and their wives and leave their orphaned sons bawling on the ground) who thought this is a good idea. In order to show you "LOOK THIS IS CRIME ALLEY GUYS!!" the show killed off 2 characters whose lives and eventual deaths held so much amazing plot/ drama/ empathy/ characterization potential, and replaced it with a murder scene before we care, and then with a brooding child who we've already seen numerous times in movies, and who realistically can't do anything important at this age and point in time.
    This decision, more than anything else, signals that the writing team has no season-long vision of what they're doing. There are so many reasons why this is a bad choice, I don't know where to begin.
    Everything I'd seen on the show framed it as Gordon investigating the deaths of the Waynes. I'm pretty sure starting there was a conscious decision.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benthesquid View Post
    Everything I'd seen on the show framed it as Gordon investigating the deaths of the Waynes. I'm pretty sure starting there was a conscious decision.
    I'm saying it's a dumb decision.

    Throughout all the past Batman shows/ cartoons/ movies/ more movies, we've only ever seen the Waynes through the lens of their deaths, and that effect on young Bruce Wayne. Now we had the opportunity of a PREQUEL. What does it do? Rehash the plot angle of seeing the Waynes through the lens of their deaths, and that effect on young Bruce Wayne. Oh joy, I've never seen that before.

    They had prime dramatic character candidates in front of their faces: Courageous philanthropic prominent citizens with the capability of helping Gordon move the plot. They had the opportunity to finally make us empathize with said characters, so we don't see them as just corpse fodder like in all the cartoons and movies. The writers dropped the ball. Nothing they accomplish with their current well-worn plot angle will ever make up for the potential they already squandered.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    I'm saying it's a dumb decision.

    Throughout all the past Batman shows/ cartoons/ movies/ more movies, we've only ever seen the Waynes through the lens of their deaths, and that effect on young Bruce Wayne. Now we had the opportunity of a PREQUEL. What does it do? Rehash the plot angle of seeing the Waynes through the lens of their deaths, and that effect on young Bruce Wayne. Oh joy, I've never seen that before.

    They had prime dramatic character candidates in front of their faces: Courageous philanthropic prominent citizens with the capability of helping Gordon move the plot. They had the opportunity to finally make us empathize with said characters, so we don't see them as just corpse fodder like in all the cartoons and movies. The writers dropped the ball. Nothing they accomplish with their current well-worn plot angle will ever make up for the potential they already squandered.
    I think this bugged me the most.

    Firstly, there's the focus on the Wayne murders. This bothers me for roughly the same reason that Jack Nicholson's Joker being the perpetrator truly annoyed me in the Burton movie - and in contrast why Batman Begins succeeded - the specifics of the Wayne's death weren't important. It's more symbolic in nature, representative of the cruel injustice in the world. The mugger was just a faceless criminal endemic to the plight of the city. I really don't want some conspiracy surrounding their deaths, it just feels so hack.

    Secondly, your point - something could be done here that's much more than the perfunctory box to check off in the "Batman references people generally know" list. Exploring the possibilities of these characters who are otherwise just faceless martyrs in the Church of Batman the Redeemer would have been worth pushing back that particular bit of canon. What surprising complexities lay underneath the otherwise idealized Waynes is a question bursting with creative potential.

    Putting that aside,

    On the whole it's a potentially excellent crime drama but the Batman license feels tacked on top of it like cheap shag carpeting over rich hardwood floors. I genuinely hadn't expected it to be so contrived to fit with all the promo material, or that it could be so annoying. I had assumed we'd meet these characters in each consecutive episode or thereabouts, providing fresh curiosity each week for who's appearing next and what they'd be like. But... it's a pilot, and I can count on one hand the number of those which were effective. I'm just worried how much of this show is going to be strangled to death by executive/corporate meddling.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2014-09-25 at 12:33 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Just watched the premiere and I really enjoyed it. Not perfect, but a solid beginning.

    Spoiler: The Origin
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    I've seen the Bruce Wayne origin story any number of times--comics, movies, seems like countless versions. This was the first time I actually felt a visceral empathy for Bruce. Not sure what it was about it--maybe that the thug aimed the gun at Bruce, or that his father had cooperated completely; I'm not a Batman connoisseur and don't recall the details from the movie versions.

    But whatever it was…they really nailed it. A genuinely powerful opening sequence.


    Spoiler: Gordon
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    Not a fan of the actor, but he sells this role well enough. I'm not clear on whether the series will focus on Gordon fighting crime, or if it's something more diffuse with multiple origin tales, but this version of Gordon works for me.

    However, I absolutely can't $&%#@!! stand his perfect blond girlfriend. I'm also not sure how a hardworking street detective ends up in a stylish modern loft with all the comforts.

    Other than, well, perfect blond girlfriend.




    Spoiler: Catfemme
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    I have to say, for a character with no speaking role she made for an interesting presence. I'm not sure what to make of her evident empathy for Bruce Wayne; it's been long years since I looked at a Batman comic and I don't have much sense of the "original" character, if there is such a thing these days.

    Also not sure what to make of the goggles. She doesn't seem to ever use them, and as a fashion statement they tend not to help you blend in.

    And a possible continuity error: when she stole the bottle of milk from the woman's shopping bag, presumably it was straight from the grocery store and unopened. But when she pours the milk for the alley cat and sets down the bottle, it's almost empty, with barely an inch of milk remaining in the bottom. There didn't seem to be time for her to have poured out the rest of it for other cats, much less swigged it herself.


    Spoiler: Everyone Else
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    So, we have the future Riddler, the future Penguin, the future Poison Ivy. Fine, the previews said as much, and it makes sense for them all to be circulating in or around Gotham. Presumably Scarecrow is being creepy in grade school or something.

    But it felt way too much for all of them to be so tightly interwoven into Bruce Wayne's early history. Catgirl witnesses the murder of his parents, Nigma handles the evidence, Poison Ivy is the daughter of the man framed for the killing? Again, I don't know the comics at all, but this seems way too pat, and the convenient early connections can only trivialize what's yet to come.


    Spoiler: The Grimdark City
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    The city really was a character in itself here--absolutely dripping with a brooding visual style. I'm ordinarily not a swooning fan of all things grimdark, but in this case it was beautifully done and with what felt like a certain restraint.


    So, overall an excellent opener. I'm not much of a Batman fan--I didn't even bother to see TDKR in the theater--but this has me acutely interested in the characters (apart from Gordon's &%$#@!! girlfriend) and wondering where it'll go from here. Monday's premiere of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. left me feeling flat and indifferent...and yet this show, for which I had zero expectations and barely remembered to watch, has me hooked.
    Last edited by Palanan; 2014-09-26 at 09:45 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Just watched the premiere and I really enjoyed it. Not perfect, but a solid beginning.
    Wow. That sounds even worse than I expected.
    This sort of tactless pandering is like combining the worst of Hollywood habits with the worst of comic book habits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Wow. That sounds even worse than I expected.
    This sort of tactless pandering is like combining the worst of Hollywood habits with the worst of comic book habits.
    If I thought every episode was going to be the premiere, I would drop the show right now.

    That said, I have a feeling that now that they've gotten the pandering out of the way by hamfistedly shoving cameo-characters into our faces, they can move on to the more interesting stuff that they've hinted at in the pilot. Give the characters some room to breathe.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Just watched the premiere and I really enjoyed it. Not perfect, but a solid beginning.

    Spoiler: Gordon
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    Not a fan of the actor, but he sells this role well enough. I'm not clear on whether the series will focus on Gordon fighting crime, or if it's something more diffuse with multiple origin tales, but this version of Gordon works for me.

    However, I absolutely can't $&%#@!! stand his perfect blond girlfriend. I'm also not sure how a hardworking street detective ends up in a stylish modern loft with all the comforts.

    Other than, well, perfect blond girlfriend.


    Spoiler: Very Minor episode spoiler with another spoiler tag inside
    Show
    The loft is Barbara's, not Gordon's. In fact, there's a line about him moving in there at some point in the future. Seems he may just spend most nights there.

    In fairness, I'm not sure how much we are supposed to like her.

    Spoiler: Barbara/Gordon Spoilers
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    In the comics Gordon and Barbara get married, but they have a lot of problems and eventually get a divorce. in fact, in IMDB one of the characters involved in all of that is credited in the series, but we haven't met them yet.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    I'm saying it's a dumb decision.

    Throughout all the past Batman shows/ cartoons/ movies/ more movies, we've only ever seen the Waynes through the lens of their deaths, and that effect on young Bruce Wayne. Now we had the opportunity of a PREQUEL. What does it do? Rehash the plot angle of seeing the Waynes through the lens of their deaths, and that effect on young Bruce Wayne. Oh joy, I've never seen that before.

    They had prime dramatic character candidates in front of their faces: Courageous philanthropic prominent citizens with the capability of helping Gordon move the plot. They had the opportunity to finally make us empathize with said characters, so we don't see them as just corpse fodder like in all the cartoons and movies. The writers dropped the ball. Nothing they accomplish with their current well-worn plot angle will ever make up for the potential they already squandered.
    Agreed. I was hoping we would get a season or more to establish and build the Waynes up as characters and make their eventual death mean something in a context outside of its affect on Bruce. It would also have been a perfect opportunity to flesh out the world building that is ostensibly the point of much of the show. Especially since they fit such a pointedly different social strata than Harvey. Right now this is all flavored through a street level view with the cops and crooks. While this makes Falcone's deus ex machina quite appropriate, getting some divergent POVs would be a better long term solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Spoiler: Very Minor episode spoiler with another spoiler tag inside
    Show
    The loft is Barbara's, not Gordon's. In fact, there's a line about him moving in there at some point in the future. Seems he may just spend most nights there.

    In fairness, I'm not sure how much we are supposed to like her.

    Spoiler: Barbara/Gordon Spoilers
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    In the comics Gordon and Barbara get married, but they have a lot of problems and eventually get a divorce. in fact, in IMDB one of the characters involved in all of that is credited in the series, but we haven't met them yet.
    Spoiler
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    That's pretty soon to call, but the show pings more against the Renee and her partner in terms of sympathy. Harvey's our scrappy, somewhat dirty but still likable veteran and he hates them. Gordon is immediately set up at odds with them as well, albeit for different reasons. And then we see Renee's attempt overt manipulations to to break the two of them up. The whole thing is shot like Renee's some sort of predator and Barbara's been burned and trying to move on with her life. Which, if true, is a tad disappointing for the show's token lesbian, but things might be more nuanced than that, it's just the premier after all.


    On a different note, while the visuals are certainly lush for a television show, I'm a bit surprise with how unrefined the camera work was. The show tilts between pedestrian shots to some rather questionable decisions. The most egregious being the undulating face shots of our hero running after the perp which were equally immersion breaking and confusing.

    My biggest annoyance remains with the dialogue. Gordon and young Bruce had a perfectly serviceable scene until we got the cringe inducing light dark duality invocation. Because that's what people say to grieving 8 year olds. More troubling is the handling with the more colorful members. Riddler is here too? Fine. No, you don't need to have him repeat the riddle gimmick multiple times in a 2 minute exchange. It's obnoxious, and lessons his actual transition later. If there's going to be an arc at all, you don't already give us the character to be so recognizable as to be indistinguishable from his more iconic rendition.

    Penguin has a similarly heavy handed treatment. Not the actor, Falcone, Bullock and he were definitely the standouts performance wise. But the repeated insistence of his nickname was less than nuanced, the trailer for next week means this is going to be an ongoing pattern. Something more naturalistic would be appreciated. Penquin has come back on the scene, and in some venerable moment someone calls him the Penquin at an appropriate cue, and the name sticks, as nicknames are wont to do. Or maybe when he attempts a hostile takeover Mooney's boys start calling him it as a smear and he decides to go with it. That's fine. Don't just have everyone come to the same magical conclusion, oh look. He's a bird man. Especially when, given the visual depiction we've seen so far, the name was kind of stretch to begin with.

    As an episode, this wasn't inspiring, but few pilots are. Once we've gotten past all the fan service (I'm really hoping that comedian in Moony's bar was not a hamfisted bit of foreshadowing later) there's certainly potential, but I'm not wholly optimistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legato Endless View Post
    As an episode, this wasn't inspiring, but few pilots are. Once we've gotten past all the fan service (I'm really hoping that comedian in Moony's bar was not a hamfisted bit of foreshadowing later) there's certainly potential, but I'm not wholly optimistic.
    Oh damn, I hadn't thought of that.That would be truly wretched.

    I don't think Fox or whoever understands fandom particularly well. At least from my experience there's a general affection for the Easter Egg approach, where the reference is subtle enough that people in the know are pleased by it but since it doesn't really mean anything within the narrative and is just a cool little reference putting a spotlight on it just ruins the effect. Arrow is pretty good at this, you can make a decent-sized list of comic references in each episode, stuff that doesn't necessarily impact the story in any significant fashion but which fans like to point out.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2014-09-27 at 01:24 PM.

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    The pilot did for me what a pilot should, got me interested enough to watch next week. That being said there are significant flaws the show has but I want to see where they go and how they handle things. Probably do for them what I did for SHIELD and give them a full season before making a call.

    I too have to agree that they seem to have made everyone and everything connected and that feels a bit needless. Others have made the point before me and done well doing it, so no need for me to repeat.
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    I watched the pilot a second time before writing this.

    Spoiler: 'Gotham' Review -- SPOILER INSIDE
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    For a network show, it's good. I mean, it's crap compared to 'Game of Thrones' or 'The Wire', but that's somewhat to be expected.

    They should have left out all the villains that didn't fit or weren't necessary. I don't think Edward Nygma as a CSI tech is worthwhile: it makes him older than Batman, and it's really just riffing off of 'Dexter'. Clumsy, didn't like it.

    There was also no reason to have Poison Ivy in there. Distracting and it was just too much.

    Catwoman sort of fits, but they have to do something interesting with her.

    Really the only 'Batman Villains' who have a real proper place here are Penguin and Falcone. Falcone's playing his part from Year One, but the real contribution here is The Penguin: The Penguin IS sort of older than Batman, so it makes sense he would have been involved in the previous regime.

    I like the idea that Cobblebot got into trouble with the powers that be -- that he found himself exiled long before Batman came into the picture. Accidental or not, that strikes me as a REAL IDEA. That he just didn't fit in with the underworld because he was just too odd, and too ambitious -- and when the real 'Freaks' come along (Joker, Scarecrow, Nygma), he won't 'fit in' with them because he won't be odd or ambitious enough.

    This could be a good show and it has great potential, but I'm skeptical that it will have the storytelling discipline to pull this off. That they would even show Nygma or Ivy suggests it doesn't, nor does this idea of making Barbra Gordon bisexual (or post-bisexual).

    If this is a pre-Batman show, having a young Catwoman in it is bending the rules enough. You can have Penguin, you can have Falcone and Maroni, you can even have Hugo Strange. But that's mostly it.

    I'm most annoyed by the fact that there's rumors they're already looking to cast Harvey Dent, and that he'll be older than Batman. That's another wrong move IMO: Dent should be a young man right now at the very oldest, they shouldn't introduce him until the 2nd or 3rd season, and frankly when he shows up, he's going to be one of the good guys through and through for basically the entire rest of the show, if Batman never shows up.

    So, I dunno: it seems to me that this show has only about 2 seasons worth of possible material before they say all there would be to say. Then they should probably start taking jumps forward in time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nilan8888 View Post
    I watched the pilot a second time before writing this.
    They just want to make a Batman TV show, but got handed the wrong script.
    There is such a massive disparity between premise and intent here. It's like Darkseid lives in Smallville.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Ettin in the Playground
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    This article is just right on the money in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    They just want to make a Batman TV show, but got handed the wrong script.
    There is such a massive disparity between premise and intent here. It's like Darkseid lives in Smallville.
    Sort of, yeah. Whether it's the showrunner or executives who stand behind the show-runner, there's very much the sense of "let's have a Batman TV show".

    I think the show is too good for it to be ENTIRELY about that -- I think someone involved in the decisions might actually be interested in the concept -- but I don't think it's enough. If the show were interested enough in itself, it would be immersed in its present, rather than constantly alluding to its future.

    You've got to have discipline to pull this off: Bruce Wayne is a small boy. That means the people he fought are also young kids as well. Otherwise you've got a riddler that's... what, 12 years older than Batman? When has THAT ever been the case? And what does that lead to? Pretty soon you've got a Joker that's on the scene before the caped crusader, completely nullifying the entire idea that the Joker's appearance is part of the reaction to Batman's appearance, and a Two-Face origin that doesn't have Batman in it at all, which is nonsense.

    The problem with the Star Wars prequels ISN'T that nobody wants to see a young Anakin Skywalker -- Patton Oswalt is wrong in that -- it's that it told us almost nothing NEW. Or at least, not enough to justify a new story.

    If Gotham wants to succeed, it has to tell us something new. And if it had something substantially new (which it could) it wouldn't need to waste time with 'fanservice', because it would be too interested in what's already there, and frankly Penguin, Gordon, Bruce Wayne, Alfred and Falcone would be fanservice enough.
    Last edited by Nilan8888; 2014-09-28 at 04:54 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    I watched the premiere a couple of days ago. I'm just not sure. I thought some sort of definite opinion would form about whether or not I'd want to watch it again, but nothing sparked.

    Spoiler: Gotham premiere. Was okay.
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    I loved the opening with Cat Teen, Gotham, and the feel of the city. Started me off happy to be watching and predisposed to like what followed.

    Some things I did really like.

    Gotham looks great. It sets a wonderful atmosphere.

    This show counts as a period piece, right?

    Penguin was weird and creepy, and the best cast character (still waiting to see more of Cat Teen, though).

    I like Jada Pinkett Smith.

    Gordon's corrupt partner was interesting.

    The Major Crimes duo seemed like upright cops, so what's up with them?

    On the down side, there seemed to be way too many villains thrown in just because. The plot to frame Pepper suffers from some major holes if that was a fake necklace (where did it come from? Yeah, like the insurance company won't notice). Also, he supposedly was not a killer, but had a gun and appeared to be doing his best to shoot Gordon with it. With no backstory as of yet and no character building for the Waynes, the mystery of who assassinated them is sort of boring, for now at least. All in all, it was sort of messy. There are a lot of characters, and they need some character building.


    I guess I should give it a few more episodes. I'm not sure I like it as of now, but I do feel it has potential. I'll see what they do with that potential.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Just watched the premiere and I really enjoyed it. Not perfect, but a solid beginning.

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    I've seen the Bruce Wayne origin story any number of times--comics, movies, seems like countless versions. This was the first time I actually felt a visceral empathy for Bruce. Not sure what it was about it--maybe that the thug aimed the gun at Bruce, or that his father had cooperated completely; I'm not a Batman connoisseur and don't recall the details from the movie versions.

    But whatever it was…they really nailed it. A genuinely powerful opening sequence.
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    In the first Batman, the killer (the Joker) pointed the gun at Bruce and seemed to debate killing him, but (iirc) was called away. But then the Burton films changed it from a random killing to a paid hit anyway.

    In Batman Begins, Thomas cooperates and hands over his wallet calmly, but when Chill demands Martha's pearls and points the gun at her, Thomas steps in the way and is shot. Then Chill panics and shoots Martha too. (I watched the films very recently; I'd never previously appreciated that the pearls Selina Kyle steals from Bruce in TDKR aren't just "his mother's pearls" as he mentions when he catches her; they're the pearls she was wearing when she was killed and indeed the proximate cause of their death. I don't know what it says about Bruce that he had the necklace repaired then locked it in a safe.)

    I haven't seen the Gotham version to compare them.
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    Default Re: Gotham (TV series)

    30 minutes into the second episode, the directing feel disjointed. Penguin's bits are fluid and nervous and a wonderful match of character to story. On the other hand Fish just did a monologue where she didn't change expression at all, it feels like they took a single comic panel and put it on TV. It's just back and forth all episode, some scenes are soft and casual and then everything feels over-dramatic and scripted. It's not working for me.
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    People are complaining the show doesn't mirror the comics in continuity? That is dumb. The show is its own thing. I don't give a Hoover how old Catwoman or Ridder are in the comics compared to Batman. The comics are the comics. This show is its own telling of the mythology, and I don't need the comics to direct the scripts.
    Last edited by Pex; 2014-09-29 at 11:17 PM.
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    Just watched the second episode, liked it more than the pilot.


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    The fact that they don't explicitly tell you who the dollmaker is or what he/she/it/they would do with the kids is pretty dark.
    I like Bullock more this episode than the last
    So Sarah Essen is dirty and the captain? Of all the character changes this is one I like the least.
    I do like what they are doing with Gordon filling in a role guiding young Bruce, though rough and gruff Alfred seems a bit of an odd character choice, but one I', curious to see where they go with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derthric View Post
    Just watched the second episode, liked it more than the pilot.


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    The fact that they don't explicitly tell you who the dollmaker is or what he/she/it/they would do with the kids is pretty dark.
    I like Bullock more this episode than the last
    So Sarah Essen is dirty and the captain? Of all the character changes this is one I like the least.
    I do like what they are doing with Gordon filling in a role guiding young Bruce, though rough and gruff Alfred seems a bit of an odd character choice, but one I', curious to see where they go with it.
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    Well, with regards to Essen, she didn't give her opinion on the matter. She might not like it, but that's the way business is done in Gotham.

    I personally like how they're slowly building up to Maroni, and that he and Falcone are clearly rivals -- in "The Long Halloween" they seem to have a sort of unlikely long-term business arrangement.

    I'm also liking this version of Cobblepot -- firstly, laying out that's not really his last name and that it's a bastardization of what's probably an Eastern European name (removing probably one of the most awkward points about the character... who HAS that last name?), and that his mother had a considerable influence on his life, which has sort of been either overlooked or not really explained all that well. Here, he's given a very 'second-generation immigrant' feel that fits the character's preoccupation with class and society.

    The show isn't written particularly well scene-to-scene, but I find that the world is structured well. I think it's already adding to the mythos.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nilan8888 View Post
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    Well, with regards to Essen, she didn't give her opinion on the matter. She might not like it, but that's the way business is done in Gotham.

    I personally like how they're slowly building up to Maroni, and that he and Falcone are clearly rivals -- in "The Long Halloween" they seem to have a sort of unlikely long-term business arrangement.

    I'm also liking this version of Cobblepot -- firstly, laying out that's not really his last name and that it's a bastardization of what's probably an Eastern European name (removing probably one of the most awkward points about the character... who HAS that last name?), and that his mother had a considerable influence on his life, which has sort of been either overlooked or not really explained all that well. Here, he's given a very 'second-generation immigrant' feel that fits the character's preoccupation with class and society.

    The show isn't written particularly well scene-to-scene, but I find that the world is structured well. I think it's already adding to the mythos.
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    Well if I remember correctly, his overbearing mother is part of the reason he ended up with the moniker Penguin. She made him dress in a suit as a child and always carry an umbrella, which led to teasing classmates. She also had a pet shop, where he developed his obsession with birds.

    I definitely think this is one of the most interesting versions of the Penguin I've ever seen, though, and his mother in this episode definitely helped cement that claim in my mind. No gimmicks, no goofiness, just a young mobster on his climb to power with a chip in his shoulder the size of Texas.
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    Well, the second episode was much less enjoyable than the premiere.

    Spoiler: Second Episode
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    Much as I wanted to like it, this was a rather uninteresting muddle of cop tropes. The story was plain if not threadbare, and the week's villains were apparently sendups of something from the comics I've never come across. They were too goofy to take seriously and too predictably evil, in a plastic sort of way, to ever be involving.

    In fact, the only character who didn't come across as plastic was the Proto-Penguin, who's played just this side of incipient lunacy. Everyone else was thoroughly one-dimensional: the abusive jerk partner, the perky perfect girlfriend, the dangerous femme fatale, none of them remotely interesting. Gordon's girlfriend is a particular annoyance; she's devoid of personality and generally inane. And the city's mob kingpin, Don Tropeone, hits all the top-boss notes and still comes out sounding flat.

    As for Cat, I liked her better when she wasn't saying anything. It turns out that when she talks, she's incredibly annoying. She also seemed oddly passive and easily herded, especially for someone who so easily flits ghostwise through the rooftops.

    And Bruce Wayne…I'm really not sure where they're going with Bruce Wayne. I have the feeling that since they cast him for the premiere, they figure they might as well include him somehow. But it's the second episode and already he's in touch with Gordon about cases, getting himself involved. It's generically humanitarian so far, but Gordon is also getting to know him, and evidently is being set up as a father figure of sorts. I don't know much about the Batman mythos, but I never had the impression Gordon was that close to young Bruce Wayne.

    So, a flat and uninvolving episode, a letdown after the premiere. Still willing to give it a chance, but they'd better start trying now.
    Last edited by Palanan; 2014-10-05 at 11:16 PM.

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