Gotham (TV series)

[Pex]

Bruce Wayne is part of the mythology as anyone else. The main character is Detective Gordon, but Bruce has every right to be there as any other supportive character. We know he becomes Batman. They know we know. What we are getting are the influences he picks up as a child that make him the superhero he becomes. I like seeing that. I don't care if it's obvious, such as the Balloon Man episode instilling Do Not Kill into his modus operandi. Seeing young Bruce is new storytelling of the mythology. In the comics Batman is established, but I don't read the comics anyway. In the movies we see him as a young adult going through physical training and exploration. I'm glad for the first time I get to enjoy watching Bruce Wayne growing up, to become the superhero he will eventually be.

[Legato Endless]

Spoiler: Second Episode

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And Bruce Wayne…I'm really not sure where they're going with Bruce Wayne.

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Adolescent Detective fights crime? With the strange villains and meddling kids, Gordon and the GCPD may all be that stands in the way of this show turning into some neo noir version of Scooby Doo.

Touch nitpicky, but I'm kind of nonplussed with 10 (11?) year old Bruce pulling an offscreen teleport on Gordon in episode 2. It's pulls too far as an allusion without standing on its own within the narrative. Something better established that felt more organic would be better. Bruce is trying to sneak through the house (for a discernible reason) and Alfred asks what's he doing. Or he tries to sneak away from someone such as Gordon, and Gordon turns and asks what's he doing.

[Dienekes]

So I watched episode 3.

I'll be honest, I'm now solely watching this show because of Penguin.

[Palanan]

I have a feeling I'll understand when I see Episode 3.

I'll give it that much more...but not feeling too drawn to this anymore. Gordon's girlfriend annoys me out of all proportion to her actual screen time. And despite what Pex said about the mythology, which I'll grant to a point, I just can't see a Gordon/young Wayne partnership, which seems to be where they're going.

[Derthric]

So I watched episode 3.

I'll be honest, I'm now solely watching this show because of Penguin.

As of the last(3rd) episode I agree with this.

I don't know why but I feel like this show is just missing a component that brings it together. Or maybe has too many elements to ever come together. I think I will keep catching it on streaming after it airs but not going to be excited about it week to week.

[Nilan8888]

As of the last(3rd) episode I agree with this.

I don't know why but I feel like this show is just missing a component that brings it together. Or maybe has too many elements to ever come together. I think I will keep catching it on streaming after it airs but not going to be excited about it week to week.

Funny, because I thought the last episode was the best so far.

I wouldn't call it GOOD, mind you... just better.

[Palanan]

Just watched the third episode, increasingly unimpressed.

Spoiler

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This was a bland, by-the-numbers cop story, which despite the weather balloons had no intrinsic interest. Proto-Catgirl continues to be extremely annoying, and Penguin is quickly becoming a one-note psychopath.

The problem with most of the other characters is they're so flat and one-dimensional they don't even qualify as cardboard; maybe closer to wax paper. Gordon's partner is a shallow jerk, and he's at least plausible, but there's nothing remotely individual about the character--not a hint of depth, nor a shred of redemptive potential. Same for every other member of the GCPD. Gordon is supposed to be conflicted and caught in a web of lies and corruption, yadda yadda, and yet I feel absolutely nothing for him. There's nothing there for me to empathize with.

The dynamic between Alfred and Bruce Wayne is more interesting; Alfred is guardian and wise counsel, yet not a parent and not entirely an authority figure. Although that makes for some interesting moments, I'm still not sure where they're going with this. Either Bruce gets in shape and capes up way too early, or we'll have a whole season of his slow awakening to the concept of a vigilante detective. Neither option is really appealing.

Nor is Fishy Whatzername, who's a strangely plastic and artificial villain. Some folks can pull off that air of deliberate artificiality, but this actress seems to be playing it straight, and that just doesn't jibe.

All of it adds up to some disappointed frustration, because I was ready to be sold on the series after the premiere. But so far, I'm just not enjoying it. I don't enjoy relentless urban corruption, and even though Gordon is supposed to be the one good man caught up in it all, there's not enough of him to matter to me.
.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm disappointed with this. The direction is fairly solid and most of the actors are capable, but it's just mediocre.

Mostly it's brought down by the Miller-esque relentless sense of futility. Gotham is terrible and will always be terrible because that's the point of the setting, and no amount of Bruce Wayne-related foreshadowing is helping. In fact it's making the whole thing worse, both because it's quite hack writing and the fact that it's just one long and bloody set-up for the true protagonist... who is still in goddamned grade school.

Otherwise. I could probably like this show despite its cliched writing. I got through Agents of SHIELD's first season after all and heaven knows that was a journey into bleh for more than half a season, so I could probably get through this as a sort of Life On Mars without the quirk or flare if it gave me more of a reason to do so beyond it existing.

On another note, as I was watching I couldn't help but think they should have used a more of an anthology style. If it's going to be about the origins of these character, well, why not give that precedence? Rather than just, "oh you wacky Gotham writers, that's the Riddler... working forensics!" You could really tell the story of each of these characters starting from the night of the Wayne's murders as the beginning point and use Gordon and Bullock as a thread to connect them all. A sort of Rashomon with Batman's rogues gallery and supporting cast with various perspective - when put together - make a compelling story about Gotham.

[Palanan]

"Mediocre" is much too kind for these past couple episodes. "Aggressively rote" is more like it.

And I'm keeping the first season of S.H.I.E.L.D. in mind...not to mention the first season of TNG, which was nakedly cringeriffic compared to what the series eventually became.

But both of those shows had an interesting premise and a setting which had already been developed in movies and/or TV. I suppose you could say the same for Gotham, at least loosely, but it's several iterations removed from previous screen versions--it's a retelling rather than part of a broader continuity.

Also, no idea what Rashomon is, but that approach sounds better than what they're doing now.

I'll give them one more episode, because I'm curious what a certain someone is doing at Gordon's front door, but not feeling enough of an emotional connection for anything more.

[The New Bruceski]

Also, no idea what Rashomon is, but that approach sounds better than what they're doing now.

Rashomon is a movie which has the same events as told/seen by different people, and they take on quite a different tone when recounted by the murderer, the victim, et cetera. If Gotham had attempted that it would have been amazing, much less if they had pulled it off.

For a similar idea in modern television, see "The Rashomon Job" episode of Leverage.

[Dienekes]

Rashomon is a movie which has the same events as told/seen by different people, and they take on quite a different tone when recounted by the murderer, the victim, et cetera. If Gotham had attempted that it would have been amazing, much less if they had pulled it off.

For a similar idea in modern television, see "The Rashomon Job" episode of Leverage.

I dunno. Rashomon is amazing, don't get me wrong. But it's an hour and a half long. I do not think you can sustain telling the same story over 7 weeks. That was one of the major complaints of the last season of Arrested Development, when they tried to do a very similar thing. If you extend it too long and it becomes too convoluted the story gets muddled.

That said, turning this into another dime a dozen cop show just with unsubtle hints about what a bunch of villains will one day become is definitely the wrong way to go about it.

The show must show some kind of change, but that change cannot be Gotham is getting better, since well, Batman. So they have instead elected to just stagnate on Gotham is crap. Which worked for the Wire because the stories of the characters were so well done, and that was kind of the point to show how screwed up the war on drugs was. It also dangled progress in front of our faces the whole time (will they capture the Barksdale crew? will the mayor actually make successful changes?). So far Gotham has not had any interesting characters, except potentially Penguin, and hasn't given us hope for change because we know it's not happening.

Personally, I say they should have gone the other way. Show Gotham progressively getting worse. If you want to start with the death of the Waynes (now what I would have done, but whatever), show how their deaths opened up problems for Gotham. Show how their philanthropy allowed the few non-corrupt people to succeed, and with it gone dirty deals are being made and the Falcone's are coming into power. Show Harvey and Gordon starting out as two essentially good cops and watch as the world progressively beats them down, until by the end Harvey has fallen. And pick a select few famous faces to go with. No *wink wink* it's the Joker. Or *nudge nudge* that's Riddler. You'll want the cops: Gordon and Harvey. One guy to show the mob side of things: Penguin. And someone to show the corruption of the politicians: I'd nominate Rupert Thorne. That's it. Others should be brought in only if they'd serve a purpose in fleshing out the setting. While I'm not opposed to seeing a young Selina Kyle episode of her life degrading and ending up on the streets, it should be as a show of how the mob is gaining more control of the city and it's effects on the common people. Not an excuse to show off how badass Catwoman is even before she hit puberty.

Also get rid of the actress playing Fish. She's horrible.

[Kitten Champion]

I dunno. Rashomon is amazing, don't get me wrong. But it's an hour and a half long. I do not think you can sustain telling the same story over 7 weeks. That was one of the major complaints of the last season of Arrested Development, when they tried to do a very similar thing. If you extend it too long and it becomes too convoluted the story gets muddled.

I was thinking of it more in terms of an initial framing device. All the stories begin around the time of the Wayne murders as a sort of flag-pole for chronological purposes and in that way it would be like Rashomon, otherwise it would follow the lives of the characters until some nebulous point in the present. Although I would also have the characters use their own perspective and possibly noir-styled narration rather than displaying it objectively, as you could bring in lots of interesting issues regarding the unreliable narrator. You could even do a Joker arc since none of the events established need be true from the mind of such a psychopath.

You could more effectively use the 1970's New York City aesthetic by implying it's all Gotham's past, although how that would work chronologically I'm not sure. You could also follow through on the idea of the Waynes' demise being the catalyst for the degradation of the city, as choosing those events specifically as a jumping off point would be particularly significant if they directly or indirectly begin the true story of modern Gotham itself and not just Batman's eventual crusade.

Basically the point would be an anthology about the lives of the Batman rogue gallery and supporting cast and how they shaped Gotham and Gotham shaped them with Gordon and Bullock as a singular common thread that unites them. To simply have the show be about the premise which it promised rather than having it couched in a gritty cop drama with largely insignificant comic references that doesn't differentiate itself from better television of its type.

Yes, it could be a real mess no question about it, but with proper planning it could make for an interesting experiment in modern story telling that would be something special on network television.

[Dienekes]

I was thinking of it more in terms of an initial framing device. All the stories begin around the time of the Wayne murders as a sort of flag-pole for chronological purposes and in that way it would be like Rashomon, otherwise it would follow the lives of the characters until some nebulous point in the present. Although I would also have the characters use their own perspective and possibly noir-styled narration rather than displaying it objectively, as you could bring in lots of interesting issues regarding the unreliable narrator. You could even do a Joker arc since none of the events established need be true from the mind of such a psychopath.

You could more effectively use the 1970's New York City aesthetic by implying it's all Gotham's past, although how that would work chronologically I'm not sure. You could also follow through on the idea of the Waynes' demise being the catalyst for the degradation of the city, as choosing those events specifically as a jumping off point would be particularly significant if they directly or indirectly begin the true story of modern Gotham itself and not just Batman's eventual crusade.

Basically the point would be an anthology about the lives of the Batman rogue gallery and supporting cast and how they shaped Gotham and Gotham shaped them with Gordon and Bullock as a singular common thread that unites them. To simply have the show be about the premise which it promised rather than having it couched in a gritty cop drama with largely insignificant comic references that doesn't differentiate itself from better television of its type.

Yes, it could be a real mess no question about it, but with proper planning it could make for an interesting experiment in modern story telling that would be something special on network television.

Ahh, yeah that could be interesting. Definitely as much if not more potential than what we're currently being given. And it gave me the idea of a fun Joker episode in which after each commercial break his core story progresses but a bunch of different elements are completely different. In one he has a kind loving family, in the next he's living on the street with no explanation given, that sort of thing. It'd be interesting anyway.

[leafman]

Alright so there is something that is bugging me. When most characters on the show say Falcone they pronounce the last half "cone", like a traffic cone. However, in the Nolan films and even Alfred in tonight's episode pronounce it "coney", like Coney Island or a coney dog. So which is the correct way to pronounce Falcone? I'm inclined to believe it is the second way.

[Ravian]

Alright so there is something that is bugging me. When most characters on the show say Falcone they pronounce the last half "cone", like a traffic cone. However, in the Nolan films and even Alfred in tonight's episode pronounce it "coney", like Coney Island or a coney dog. So which is the correct way to pronounce Falcone? I'm inclined to believe it is the second way.

I'm pretty sure it's coney. It's an Italian name, which typically end with a hard vowel.

[Legato Endless]

Assuming he's named after the place, then the latter is correct.

Also, I don't think the Riddler understands what 'Paradox' actually means.

[Dienekes]

I'm pretty sure it's coney. It's an Italian name, which typically end with a hard vowel.

Carmine Falcone was created by Frank Miller, who has said its Fal-cone. However, since people don't often listen to interviews to get names before sounding them out in your head, and Falconey sound more Italianish most people I know say it that way. I also think it sounds better, but that's just me.

[Ravian]

Carmine Falcone was created by Frank Miller, who has said its Fal-cone. However, since people don't often listen to interviews to get names before sounding them out in your head, and Falconey sound more Italianish most people I know say it that way. I also think it sounds better, but that's just me.

Interesting. It's not the only instance of different pronunciations from the creators intent in Batman. Ra's Al Ghul is pronounced it "Raz" in the Nolanverse but the original creator and the animated series used "Raysh" (where it was actually a running gag in some episodes to mispronounce his name as Raz)

Frankly I'm more inclined for Fal-coney. That is the Italian pronunciation after all. Though to be fair technically the arabic pronunciation of Ra's is Ra-us, which is closer to Raz than Raysh, even though I prefer the creator's pronunciation. Maybe just due to a general dislike of Frank Miller, though honestly I wasn't aware of him being the original creator of Falcone before now

[Dienekes]

Interesting. It's not the only instance of different pronunciations from the creators intent in Batman. Ra's Al Ghul is pronounced it "Raz" in the Nolanverse but the original creator and the animated series used "Raysh" (where it was actually a running gag in some episodes to mispronounce his name as Raz)

Frankly I'm more inclined for Fal-coney. That is the Italian pronunciation after all. Though to be fair technically the arabic pronunciation of Ra's is Ra-us, which is closer to Raz than Raysh, even though I prefer the creator's pronunciation. Maybe just due to a general dislike of Frank Miller, though honestly I wasn't aware of him being the original creator of Falcone before now

If it helps, Frankie created him back when he was only a bit off, not yet a full blown psychotic.

[Aedilred]

Alright so there is something that is bugging me. When most characters on the show say Falcone they pronounce the last half "cone", like a traffic cone. However, in the Nolan films and even Alfred in tonight's episode pronounce it "coney", like Coney Island or a coney dog. So which is the correct way to pronounce Falcone? I'm inclined to believe it is the second way.

I believe both pronunciations might be accurate depending on the appropriate Italian dialect. In the case of Falcone it could conceivably be either. Some unremarked in-character disagreement/misunderstanding about pronunciation of a foreign or unusual name makes a degree of sense anyway, I think, although it could get confusing.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So episode 4's out, and while I can't really comment on the quality of it since I don't watch a lot of cop shows (I have watched a good amount of Criminal Minds and Flashpoint, but those aren't the standards this show draws off of; I haven't watched CSI or Law & Order for the basic cop show, or The Wire or The Shield for stuff about lots of corruption), I will say what's keeping me interested. I want to see what kind of Batman verse will become of this. So basically I'm hoping it's good enough to get it to become a Batman continuity, then make a Batman show for it. Having Gordon as a significant force in Bruce's childhood, the interactions with Penguin.

But the only way to get me to accept the Poison Ivy thing is to say that the girl was just a girl named Ivy. Pam is someone else.

[Pex]

Conjecture

While it's obvious the Waynes were murdered because of Arkham, the who dunnit is the McGuffin. Fish briefly held the necklace, but that doesn't mean she gave the order, granted she's still a likely suspect. Any of the mob could have placed the order as well as the Mayor or the Police Captain. My conjecture, though, is who pulled the trigger. It could be some glorified extra hired gun, but I'm inclined to believe it's someone we're seeing in the series. Fish's Lieutenant fits the build we saw but still too obvious. I think the identity of the triggerman is a big deal. It's going to mean something in show and metashow, to have oomph in the drama. One could say anyone would be too obvious, but someone has to be the guilty party if it's not a glorified extra to be hired later. My guess:

Spoiler

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Harvey Bullock

[Derthric]

I actually really liked this episode. The climax was interesting because the mayor could die, Gordon could fail to stop the hit. Unlike last week where I know nothing is going to happen to Gordon hanging onto Balloon man or that Selina isn't going to die because the mythology demands otherwise. I like that there was risk, I had a feeling it wouldn't happen but the scene had just a bit more weight because of it and that helped.

And Pex, I agree.

[Nilan8888]

Just saw Epsiode 5, "Venom".

There were a couple of things off, but this was actually the best one yet. The main story had a number of the regular flaws, but it was easier to ignore them this time around.

I would even go so far to not only say I liked this episode (I liked the last one too) but that it was a "good" episode. I haven't really been able to say that yet, but this one was good.

[Yana]

I think what made this episode work was the fact that it was far more subtle about future events and characterizations than we've seen in weeks past.

Namely

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We see Bruce take his first steps towards becoming The World's Greatest Detective in earnest with his desire to unravel the mob connections between Wayne Enterprises and Falcone/Maroni over the Arkham development. Here, Bruce was far more proactive than he has been in weeks past where he was content to remain in Wayne Manor for Gordon to conveniently bring him into the loop about the latest case. That we weren't bashed over the head about his future as Batman (at least, I didn't pick up any obvious lines about this) was another welcome development.

It also helped that the writers were less heavy handed about potential future villains. Yes, we had Edward Nygma show up again. However, unlike in the past episodes we've seen him in, he refrained from attempting to speak in riddles or trying to work a question pun into every sentence. The closest we got to him being outright spelled out as a villain in the making was his fascination with the aftereffects of the Viper drug.

And speaking of Viper, I called it early on as a Venom precursor and it was neat to hear that Venom exists in this universe, but not have Bane be mentioned yet. (Interesting anecdote, when watching this with my father who is a Marvel buff, he jumped on my case when I said that the drug was Venom because he was thinking about the Spider-Man villain).

[Pex]

I think what made this episode work was the fact that it was far more subtle about future events and characterizations than we've seen in weeks past.

Namely

Spoiler

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We see Bruce take his first steps towards becoming The World's Greatest Detective in earnest with his desire to unravel the mob connections between Wayne Enterprises and Falcone/Maroni over the Arkham development. Here, Bruce was far more proactive than he has been in weeks past where he was content to remain in Wayne Manor for Gordon to conveniently bring him into the loop about the latest case. That we weren't bashed over the head about his future as Batman (at least, I didn't pick up any obvious lines about this) was another welcome development.

Spoiler

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It was Alfred, not Bruce, who got the character development. Seeing the corruption of Wayne Enterprises, Alfred finally starts to work with Bruce instead of just trying to protect him. That plays into him being support for Batman.

[Bhu]

So has anyone else read the weird fan theory about Oswald Cobblepot

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being the Joker.

[Dienekes]

No, but I'm almost painfully procrastinating my work and wouldn't mind a weird read.

[Bhu]

No, but I'm almost painfully procrastinating my work and wouldn't mind a weird read.

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/10/...e-time-2363195

[Ravian]

So has anyone else read the weird fan theory about Oswald Cobblepot

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being the Joker.

Eh. Seems unlikely, and kind of a waste of what's probably the best version of the Penguin I've ever seen.

Plus most of the claims the theory makes have very shaky premises. Yes, Penguin looks different then most interpretations. He's also much younger than most interpretations, with plenty of time to get fat once he becomes Gotham's new mob boss. Plus that waddle of his is incredibly distinctive, and definitely doesn't match most interpretations of the Joker.

It just seems like a waste of a good character, especially since the Joker works best when he pops out of nowhere.