Gotham (TV series)

[Nilan8888]

They're also forgetting that while his laugh is normal and he is thin, he's also overly mannered -- note how off-kilter his language is compared to the two jocks who pick him up in Episode 2 -- and he has a desire to fit in up to and a bit beyond the point of being naiive.

The naiive has come up a few times with the Penguin (I think mostly in the romantic sense, though), but the desire to fit in is a BIG DEAL for him.

The Joker doesn't care about fitting in. Not. one. little. bit.

He also hates his name, consistent with comic-book Penguin. In fact, I think he's the only one batman villain who doesn't like his moniker -- most either enjoy it, or don't care. The Joker embraces his name, or at least what people call him doesn't get to him nearly as much, whatever the name may be. For such a chaotic person, it would be odd for that to be a persistent quirk.

Plus there's the presence of his mother, which draws from the comics as well.

I think a lot of this is because there really hasn't been a live-version of the Penguin that reflects the modern comics. The Burgess Meredith version was only skin-deep, and Danny DeVito's character was almost nothing like him (except for that desire to 'fit-in', which was way over the top compared to what we see in Gotham).

[Avilan the Grey]

Well, I just binge-watched the show and I'm in love. First new show for years I truly enjoy.

[Brewdude]

Yeah, I'm not feeling the hate here, but then I don't read the comics much. It's a perfectly decent Batman Prequel series. I LIKE the pandering. But yes, the story of the rise of the penguin is stealing this show, just like the story of the drug dealers steals the show in the Wire.

[Avilan the Grey]

I used to read a lot of comics, and I still keep up with the lore. However this fits me, I guess because Bats was never one of my favorite characters. I prefered the other characters, around him. I think my favorite bat characters were Gordon, Stephanie!Batgirl, Barbara!Batgirl, Harley Quinn, Huntress, Penguin etc etc in that order. But at least I cared for Bats, unlike Superman who I just... don't care about at all.

I also consider the Joker overused and overrated.

As for the series... A few things are clear, of course. Fish will sleep with the fishes quite soon. After all by the time Bruce takes up the Cowl, she is not even a blip on the radar. As in nobody is talking about her, even.
Speaking of Bruce, I think the idea of having him a secondary, but important character is just the right balance. You get to see him slowly develope, but the story is not about him.

Also, for the moment Gotham is my favorite police series, closly followed by Brooklyn Nine Nine. Of course I am not really a fan of police dramas in general.

[The New Bruceski]

The best line in this episode would really have to be the entire last ten minutes, but if I had to choose it would be a tie:

Spoiler

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"You're under arrest for conspiracy to murder, coercion, and frankly some thiungs I think we're gonna have to name after you."

Or

"I didn't kill Oswald Cobblepot."
"I believe you, buddy."
"No, I REALLY didn't kill Oswald Cobblepot!"
*Penguin shows up*
"You son of a BITCH!"
*end episode*

I know the second one's more than one line, but really, where could you possibly break that whole scene up to pick one part of it? The show seems to be finding its stride now and I've gone from "I hope this gets watchable because I really like Penguin" to "I want to see if they can keep this up and keep Barbara/Fish off-camera as much as possible."

[grolim]

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I think the best line was when Dix told Gordon to watch out for Harvey, he thinks he is some kind of white knight.

Gordon's....what Harvey are you talking about because it certainly is not this one..look was priceless.

[Avilan the Grey]

Absolutely love this episode.
The Goat was very creative.

[Pex]

Spoiler: Bullock

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Presuming Bullock joining Gordon's side is legitimate there goes my theory he killed the Waynes. Having Penguin be in cahoots with Falcone all along is credible. Bullock also being in on it would be far fetched. While the Falcone/Penguin reveal is not a new idea, it was an unexpected one to me for the show so that was a nice surprise. Penguin is that rare villain I actually like watching. I'm really interested in what he's up to, and I like I'm always becoming disappointed with him when he shows his true villainous murderous self, to be reminded of his Team Evil credentials.

[comicshorse]

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I really enjoyed this episode and it feels like 'Gotham' has hit its stride. It was good to see one of the comic characters being used well (Victor Zsasz) and Penguin's growth as a Gotham power-player continues to intrigue

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, the show's been keeping me interested in everything that's happening with Penguin and Bruce. Gordon, not so much.

[Pex]

Gotham is back. Yay!

Morena Baccarin is practically typecast now to play villains. It nice to see her play an innocent character for a change. Jim Gordon have her a seal of approval of innocence relatively early in the show, but the plot still kept some doubt until the final act.

Boo on Barbara for her hypocrisy of Jim Gordon having a woman in his apartment. It was actually Ivy playing a prank and Gordon didn't know she was there, but Barbara didn't know that. Barbara got all upset over it. No confirmed proof yet she's angry at Gordon specifically for alleged behavior while they were "on a break" rather than at this mysterious woman trying to take her man, but Barbara has no moral righteousness soap box to stand on to lay blame. I do hope she never becomes Batgirl's mother. Gordon is much better off without her.

[comicshorse]

A nice episode and Bullock is rising fast to be my favourite character. The interplay between him and Gordon as they bamboozle the head of Arkham was hilarious

[Lizard Lord]

Gotham is back. Yay!

Morena Baccarin is practically typecast now to play villains. It nice to see her play an innocent character for a change. Jim Gordon have her a seal of approval of innocence relatively early in the show, but the plot still kept some doubt until the final act.

Boo on Barbara for her hypocrisy of Jim Gordon having a woman in his apartment. It was actually Ivy playing a prank and Gordon didn't know she was there, but Barbara didn't know that. Barbara got all upset over it. No confirmed proof yet she's angry at Gordon specifically for alleged behavior while they were "on a break" rather than at this mysterious woman trying to take her man, but Barbara has no moral righteousness soap box to stand on to lay blame. I do hope she never becomes Batgirl's mother. Gordon is much better off without her.

Its either shes the mother or Jim names his daughter after an ex....


Which might make sense if the ex dies while they were still a couple but either way I think they are going to have to get back together just once.


But yea, I don't like Barbara in this either.

[Pex]

A nice episode and Bullock is rising fast to be my favourite character. The interplay between him and Gordon as they bamboozle the head of Arkham was hilarious

I'm thinking Bullock is starting to like Gordon, for reals. He's not reformed yet to support Gordon's ultimate goal, but seeing a true cop in action may be getting to him.

[comicshorse]

It's already been strongly hinted that Bullock used to be an idealist, I thinking working with Gordon is reminding him of how he used to be before Gotham ground him down

[Pex]

Looks like Morena Baccarin is sticking around for awhile as Gordon's new love interest. Good. Maybe she's Batgirl's mother. I approve. As for Barbara, she runs back to her snobbish parents. If we're meant to feel sorry for her it failed with me. I only care about her as much as it takes not to care, and if this was the last episode we see of her great. However, it's inevitable she'll confront Gordon's new love.

Note: I have nothing against the actress who plays Barbara. It's only the character I have contempt for and don't begrudge the actress staying on the show having the gig.

[comicshorse]

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Is this the end of 'Fish' ? I really hope so, though I think her enforcer Butch is interesting enough to keep around

[Pex]

I'm liking how they are handling The Riddler's origin story. They're going right for the sympathy vote, and it's working. I'm rooting for him not to become The Riddler. That would be an acceptable twist.

I find it a cop-out for how Penguin escaped being crushed to death. It would be too much to ask for another Falcone cavalry rescue as per last week against Fish, but the phone call to the driver was gimmicky.

Geek Jealousy Alert - Ben McKenzie is one very lucky actor to get to kiss Morena Baccarin. McKenzie fans from The O.C. and/or Southland can say the reverse is true too.

[grolim]

I find it a cop-out for how Penguin escaped being crushed to death. It would be too much to ask for another Falcone cavalry rescue as per last week against Fish, but the phone call to the driver was gimmicky.

While I somewhat agree, it fits perfectly in character of Penguin so far. Always gets in over his head and comes out ahead. Plus he does it by going around his target. He bought one guy's thugs off, this time he bluffed or scared the henchman off. Got Fish by telling Falcone about Liza, but at the right time. He does stupid things to get in trouble by over reaching, but seems good at thinking fast when put on the spot.

[Pex]

I understand why Gordon didn't go to Penguin's party, and he wasn't wrong, but I suspect trouble ahead. It will likely be related to Penguin's plot to kill Maroni. You know he's plotting. He has to get rid of him. Penguin is already a villain, but I'm guessing when at moment Penguin is in trouble and Gordon doesn't help and/or does not behave like his friend, that's when Penguin becomes The Penguin! of Batman lore.

Looks like Morena Baccarin has officially joined the cast. Goody. Gordon is definitely being too goody-two-shoes not wanting any kissy-kissy at work. It's his strength, but it's also his weakness. We've already seen that caving in to Falcone because of Barbara, who didn't deserve him.

Interesting they're continuing Fish's story. Jada-Pinkett Smith must have signed on for the long haul.

He had to come in eventually. They even made a big deal about it in the show's tag as his intro. Next week, The Joker.

[grolim]

He had to come in eventually. They even made a big deal about it in the show's tag as his intro. Next week, The Joker.

I don't know. Sure it looks it, and may well be but I like that the trailer said that this week's villain is no joke. It would be funny to mean it literally...he is no Joker.

[Pex]

This episode the writers ignored cop drama and just went with comics. The only reason we knew Jerome was the killer was because they made such a big deal of it in last week's previews. Hardly a spoiler. He doesn't go creepy Joker until the end. Obviously they don't outright call him Joker and have him reference himself that way, but they give you the grin and laugh. Disappointing they didn't seek Nigma's help in solving the riddle. They're hinting he's resenting the new medical examiner, but it would have been nice to indulge his riddles when the great opportunity presented itself. There really wasn't a mystery. It's a leap of logic how Gordon figured out what was going on. The audience was given no clues. We just had to accept his word for it until the suspects confessed. Maybe "comics" is the wrong word. More "Agatha Christie" perhaps.

The B, C, and D stories are just set-up for later episodes.

[Pex]

My beef with SyFy's "Defiance", especially the first season, was its cliched predictability. I knew everything that was going to happen in an episode after just watching the first 10 minutes.

Gotham is the opposite.

Wow! Fish (spoilered in white) poking her eye out took me completely by surprise. I figured she wasn't getting off easy in her rebellion just because she was granted a meeting with the Powers That Be, but to have taken the direction they did, awesome. You can start to feel sympathy for her, and I wonder if out of all of this she finds Redemption and Honest True wants to save the Basement People. She'd eventually escape where ever she is and returns to Gotham to hunt down those responsible. She might even ask Bruce Wayne and Alfred for help to return her previous kindness, even if just a safe house to stay in. In the process she tells Bruce all she knows about his parents' murder. Could be related. That's just conjecture on my part but a plot development I can get behind.

(Spoiler) Alfred's stabbing, while plot issue done before in many a show, was also surprising to me in this instance. I didn't know where they were going with this and was wondering where last week's previews of this episode were. They came at the end of the episode to tie the plot and it makes sense, but they did a good job of hiding what was going on. That made the ending fulfilling, and I want to see more.

As for the Red Hood story, given the show is a "prequel" the original, first Red Hood makes sense to show up, but I couldn't care less what was going on there. The other plots were a lot more interesting, even Penguin's liquor problem. I still like Jim Gordon and am rooting for him as the Hero, but his plot was unimportant to me this time.

I partially take it back. The Red Hood story was more interesting than one other plot - Barbara's moping. Just go away already.

[Brewdude]

These last few episodes have been great! I've got nothing but good opinions on Gotham. It's been keeping up it's quality throughout the season.

[Brother Oni]

Wow! Fish (spoilered in white) took me completely by surprise. I figured she wasn't getting off easy in her rebellion just because she was granted a meeting with the Powers That Be, but to have taken the direction they did, awesome. You can start to feel sympathy for her, and I wonder if out of all of this she finds Redemption and Honest True wants to save the Basement People. She'd eventually escape where ever she is and returns to Gotham to hunt down those responsible. She might even ask Bruce Wayne and Alfred for help to return her previous kindness, even if just a safe house to stay in. In the process she tells Bruce all she knows about his parents' murder. Could be related. That's just conjecture on my part but a plot development I can get behind.

The whole basement plot is a great example of how ruthless and charismatic Fish is. Sometime it veers into silly territory (her standing on the bloke), other times it wanders into "Holy crap! I can't believe she just did that!", but all of it is very understandable - if your body is the only thing worth value to the opposition and denying it to them is the only way you can fight back, it's only a question of whether you have the determination and willpower to take that step.

As mentioned earlier, Fish appears to be forgotten entirely by the time Batman arrives (Falcone and Maroni are still in power though), which doesn't bode well for her getting out of this alive, let alone getting back to Gotham.

[Calemyr]

The whole basement plot is a great example of how ruthless and charismatic Fish is. Sometime it veers into silly territory (her standing on the bloke), other times it wanders into "Holy crap! I can't believe she just did that!", but all of it is very understandable - if your body is the only thing worth value to the opposition and denying it to them is the only way you can fight back, it's only a question of whether you have the determination and willpower to take that step.

As mentioned earlier, Fish appears to be forgotten entirely by the time Batman arrives (Falcone and Maroni are still in power though), which doesn't bode well for her getting out of this alive, let alone getting back to Gotham.

Honestly until this episode I was wondering if she would evolve to become Amanda Waller, as I refuse to believe Fish is her given name. She's got the right ruthless streak and could easily become Waller if experiences forced her to reconsider her priorities. Waller is one of my favorite characters to watch in any DC series I've seen her in (not many can play tit-for-tat with the Bat like she can). Might be a bit old, but so is Dent, so we're already dancing with age issues and Waller has no need to be a physical threat.

And, yes. This series has done a pretty good job of raising the "Holy CRAP!" quotient from being a quasi police procedural supported by ham-fisted cameos to being a very interesting show to watch in its own right. Fish used to be low on my watch list (just another femme fatale, and not even a particularly elegant one), but since leaving Gotham she's actually become quite impressive.

Also liked the Red Hood plot. It was technically pretty forgettable, but that's the best part of it. We never see the Joker. We see lots of hints of the Joker - the carnie kid with the evil laugh, the failing comedian, the charismatic robber in the red hood, the clearly troubled youth who takes picks it up at the end - but all of them are just allusions to the Clown Prince rather than the Wild Card himself. They set up the tradition without taking advantage of it. Not yet, anyway.

And, finally, I like what they've done with Butch. I was afraid he'd be a brainwashed automaton now, but he's still Butch in all his glory, just with his priorities shifted from his boss to their club. I like Butch, so I'm glad they've managed to pull him free of Fish and give him more spotlight at the same time.

[Pex]

It's a stretch, but there may be an in-joke to the episode as it guest starred Jeffrey Combs as the mad doctor. Jeffrey Combs starred in a direct to dvd movie called "Would You Rather". He played a rich guy who offered to fully pay the financial needs of charity cases but only to the winner of a game of Would You Rather. People are tasked to choose to do one of two dares, both of which involve torture. In one particular dare a person has to stab himself in the eye with a razor blade. Similarly, in Gotham the mad doctor gives Fish two choices, but she opts for the third choice popping out her eye.

Also in the movie, playing his son, is Robin Lord Taylor - The Penguin

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

The Barbra story gets to me the most... she should be the character I identify with (well ok, I'm not from money, but still bi confused woman looking to figure out her life and experimenting with drugs to hide from her problems, and maybe sabotaging her best relationship due to fear of intimacy) but I just can't feel anything for her.

I didn't even understand the whole having no problem with Ivy and Cat in her place...

[Brewdude]

"I didn't even understand the whole having no problem with Ivy and Cat in her place... "

She didn't have no problem, she clearly decided to see where this led. The girls are a window into Jim's life, and kids are usually easy to get information from. Not that she's consciously thinking in that direction, just more of a "it's time to be a rebel, and maybe hanging out with these girls can get me there." They were a curve ball that led to a direction she wanted to go anyway.

[comicshorse]

It's a stretch, but there may be an in-joke to the episode as it guest starred Jeffrey Combs as the mad doctor. Jeffrey Combs starred in a direct to dvd movie called "Would You Rather". He played a rich guy who offered to fully pay the financial needs of charity cases but only to the winner of a game of Would You Rather. People are tasked to choose to do one of two dares, both of which involve torture. In one particular dare a person has to stab himself in the eye with a razor blade. Similarly, in Gotham the mad doctor gives Fish two choices, but she opts for the third choice
Also in the movie, playing his son, is Robin Lord Taylor - The Penguin

There's also this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-Animator