OOTS #960 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

He also has the downside that the Order has spent several more months getting to know each other better. I mean, when the Elan/Nale switch happened, they'd only been adventuring together for, what, a few months? If that?

[Gusion]

1. Regarding blood: If you look at 957 (et. al), I always assumed that red was due to blood around internal tissue.

2. Regarding Belkar's new weapon... well. This reminds me of FFVII. Specifically what happened to Aerith right after she got the Princess Guard.

3: I really think the potentially most interesting part is what Belkar is telling V prior to the text we see in panel 1. Does he knows why he jumped off the ship? Even just describing the feeling, is that enough for V to know? Why doesn't Belkar ask for help specifically to avoid being subject to that weakness?

4. And lastly:

... One design problem, IMO, with 3.5 is that it's so well-balanced

HAHAHAHAHAHA, I think that's the first time I've ever heard that said without irony.

Actually, I do feel it's kind of "Typical Tarquin", or rather: Typical just like your father would do: Pick the most expensive (+5, that is) equipment, and pick the most boring and un-imaginative feature (a flat, non-rollable +5 to damage). A younger and more creative spirit might have preferred a weapon with some fancy visual effect, or something subject to fate (needing a die roll).

I think you vastly misjudge Tarquin.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Come to think of it, how many times has V attempted humor? Not often, I think, so sarcasm counts for a lot.

Also, when I first read this, I thought the ninth panel was the punch line.

I suppose the other three panels were worth it to see Belkar’s high-dive face again.

The Good party members all seem to believe that Durkula is simply Durkon in vampiric form. The Neutral (ish) party member recognizes that Durkula is not Durkon, but is not prepared to judge Durkula's intentions. The Evil party member not only believes that Durkula is separate from Durkon, but is convinced that Durkula is an abomination that must be destroyed.

You're onto something, but I think it's not so much their alignments as the fact that they have fonder relationships with Durkon -- something helped/hurt by personalities, and alignment are part of personalities.

Roy/Haley/Elan respected Durkon as a fellow hero and relied on him as a sturdy and helpful friend. They looked forward to having him back.

Looking at Don't Split the Party, V regarded Durkon as preachy, annoying, and entirely different in priorities. They reconciled pretty well when they reunited, but the mutual respect isn't quite friendship.

And Belkar seldom trusted anyone, unless you count planning for them to be suckers that he could get to help him. (He's shifting recently, but that's another discussion.)

Now, some people suggested Haley's suspicious nature, so I'll link them. It's a fair point, and I wouldn't be surprised if it does come up. I'd just say that alignment isn't the source of their trust so much as it and their buddy status with Durkon are both products of their outlook.

Hypothetical explanation: good-aligned people are more likely to lend the benefit of the doubt, in charity, because they think of other people as innately good. Meanwhile, evil-aligned people think that everyone's really just a scumbag with varying amounts of facade.

You see a reflection of yourself in others.

I think it has more to do with life experience than alignment per se.

Consider : Haley is untrusting -- or at least she started that way -- because she grew up in an environment where telling the truth was a death sentence. But this doesn't stop her from doing right by people, or sacrificing her own diamond for the sake of someone else. That's why she's chaotic good.

[...]

So I suspect trustfulness is more an artifact of whether the person in question grew up in a threatening environment than their alignment. Obviously evil people in a good society have to be a little bit deceptive, or they will be outcast, driven out and hunted down. But I wonder if the reverse wouldn't hold true in the usually evil goblin society -- whether a goblin which chose to harbor good sympathies and actions would have to conceal it, dressing up in a black cloak and only pretending to drink the blood of the innocent, for example.

I'm flashing back to "1984," but it's been a while since I read that, so I'm not sure if it counts or not. "The Bourne Identity" might be a better fit, where Bourne acted the role of a cold-blooded killer even though he'd rather avoid it whenever possible. That job literally drove him insane.

Still, trying to pull a cover role like that would have some serious story potential. Nice observation of yours!

3: I really think the potentially most interesting part is what Belkar is telling V prior to the text we see in panel 1. Does he knows why he jumped off the ship? Even just describing the feeling, is that enough for V to know?

...Huh. Do mind-controlled characters know that someone else made then do it? I'm unsure from the comic, seeing as Belkar didn't talk after Malack controlled him. On one hand, Thanh thought he bore some responsibility for his actions, at least for a moment. But on a better hand, Belkar's first leap overboard got followed by such heightened outrage that I think he must have connected the behavior to not-Durkon, at least as a suspect.

You're all getting it wrong. OotS-pleather is "psionic leather," carefully flayed from, well, considering the former owner I'm going to guess "psionic characters." As long as the "donor" stays alive, the pleather remains living, soft, and supple (thanks to a psionic link).

So, still in poor taste, but EVIL.

Ouch. One can only hope this decoration method did not extend to any Bleedingham palace furniture. That'd be one way to make Tarquin's attempts at wooing even more aversive.

[...]

Is it just me or does V look a little different from the last time we saw him/her/it?

[Seward]

Actually I think it's time for V to take Mind Blank on his next level up.

It's an 8th level spell, lasts all day and protects all those weak willed party members....

Of course deciding WHICH weak willed party member to protect is tricky. Still going to have only 3 8th level spell slots, plus an evocation slot at level 16, and if V makes 17 I doubt very much V will want to waste 9th level slots on an 8th level spell, no matter how useful.

Hm...scrolls maybe. For the climactic battle etc. The lich doesn't seem to go for will save spells but Redcloak's got plenty in his inventory.

[Lombard]

This strip should reasonably indicate that HPoH is a liar, shouldn't it?

When threatened he went right back to the same M.O. that he used before... that he denied using.

Unless nobody else observed it. In which case, from the perspective of the others, Belkar is either telling the truth or jumping overboard repeatedly just to frame HPoH.

Anyways Belkar is going to need much more than a ring of mind blank to take on HPoH. Make it past the dominate and you've still got a high-level vampire cleric to deal with in all other respects.

[Devils_Advocate]

Really, Rich? "Pleather"? You should know by now that, by D&D law, post-Renaissance materials as well as technologies must be replaced by otherworldly equivalents, whether direct or approximate. Titanium and aluminum alloys instead of adamantine and mithral are no more permissible than non-magical video games and cell phones. (Or course, you're not forbidden from including magic video games and cell phones. Why, that would just be silly!)

I guess I can let it slide this time.

Perhaps there was enough pleather on the hilt that it's removal counts as weapon shrinkage.

Upon reflection, that seems rather likely. If a katana can count as a masterwork bastard sword, then a dagger with a reduced hilt is darned well at least close enough to a smaller short sword to count as one.

Durkon merits investigating because he is not Durkon yet claims to be, which probably means an ulterior motive of some sort.

Well, obviously it's because he wants the others to trust him. And it's entirely plausible that he wants them to trust him because he wants to be able to work together with them to save the world out of self-interest.

Not that that would at all preclude, say, secret plans to turn them all into vampires too in preparation for the final battle with Xykon.

[Porthos]

This strip should reasonably indicate that HPoH is a liar, shouldn't it?

When threatened he went right back to the same M.O. that he used before... that he denied using.

Unless nobody else observed it. In which case, from the perspective of the others, Belkar is either telling the truth or jumping overboard repeatedly just to frame HPoH.

(to Belkar and 'Durkon'): Dammit! Will you two drop your stupid little feud and get back to saving the world!
(mumbles under breath): Gods, I just got Belkar and Vaarsuvius to stop fighting. Now these two are at each other throats. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't have it better off when I was dead. At least then I would have had some peace and quiet and I wouldn't have to deal with petty bickering like I am now.


=====

I don't think Roy really cares right now which one is lying. This isn't really all that different, from his perspecitve, from when V and Belkar were engaging in their prank war. If it starts to get out of hand, he may have to put his foot down. But until then, he's just going to sulleny accept it as his lot in life.

[Aquillion]

Actually I think it's time for V to take Mind Blank on his next level up.

It's an 8th level spell, lasts all day and protects all those weak willed party members....

Of course deciding WHICH weak willed party member to protect is tricky. Still going to have only 3 8th level spell slots, plus an evocation slot at level 16, and if V makes 17 I doubt very much V will want to waste 9th level slots on an 8th level spell, no matter how useful.

Hm...scrolls maybe. For the climactic battle etc. The lich doesn't seem to go for will save spells but Redcloak's got plenty in his inventory.

Protection From Evil works just as well for that purpose (while providing other useful benefits) and is 1st level. It doesn't last all day, but it lasts long enough.

[dtilque]

You're all getting it wrong. OotS-pleather is "psionic leather," carefully flayed from, well, considering the former owner I'm going to guess "psionic characters." As long as the "donor" stays alive, the pleather remains living, soft, and supple (thanks to a psionic link).

Wouldn't those "donors" be the Naugas? Don't know about their psionicness, though.

So, still in poor taste, but EVIL.

But yes, they're definitely Evil.

[yuffiek]

Compared to some of the other weapons the OOTS have available (Haley's +5 Icy Burst shortbow, Roy's +5(?) Undead Bane greatsword), a +5 Collision Dagger isn't much.

For a +7 total weapon bonus, and the fact Tarquin is EXTREMELY genre savvy, I would have expected something likea +2 Keen, Collision, Psychokinetic Burst dagger (1d4+2+5+1d4 force, 17-20 crit threat, +1d6 force on critical hit)

[Barnacle]

I'm surprised none of the other characters are worried about Belkar's mental health, given that he keeps jumping over the side of the airship.

[Coidzor]

So, "maximal efficiency" plus "shifting mass" means that instead of (say) 1D6+1, it does 6+2 damage ?

Efficiency enhancements = euphemism for enhancement bonuses, I believe. So it's a +5 Collision Dagger, since it's not an epic weapon. If it were an epic weapon, those go up to... +10? Yeah, +10, but then that'd cost a cool 2 million before factoring in Collision and the 302 for the masterwork dagger as the base. So it deals... 1d4+5+5+Str or Str/2, depending.

Except it's a bit wonky with a Human dagger wielded by a Halfling and whether to do sizing penalties or just count it as a Halfling's shortsword ala Tolkien.

And weapons don't resize by default and I can't remember any canon examples of weapons resizing aside from the weapon shrinkage retcon joke.

Huh. I just realized that we can categorize the party's view of Durkula along the good/evil axis.

The Good party members all seem to believe that Durkula is simply Durkon in vampiric form. The Neutral (ish) party member recognizes that Durkula is not Durkon, but is not prepared to judge Durkula's intentions. The Evil party member not only believes that Durkula is separate from Durkon, but is convinced that Durkula is an abomination that must be destroyed.

This probably means something, but it's entirely possible that I'm reading too much into things.

Just might, yeah.

I'd say it's a pretty decent way of splitting up the different alignments' likely reactions to this sort of situation, myself. A closer look at what Haley thinks will cement it one way or the other, I think.

You mean other than, say, a Good Cleric or Paladin's reaction of DESTROY THE ABOMINATION so we can bring back our dead comrade? Good is not always dumb, after all.

It's nice, I guess, but I would think that a character who can afford such a costly weapon might find a more useful way to spend those 48,000 Gp?

Probably. Shax's Indispensable Haversack, for instance.

Much simplifies things for telling the story to only have one pertinent property to explain, though.

Right, I know that this comic is NOT a DnD game played out and illustrated. But still, it's a nice enhancement bonus for me to try to figure out what the rules might tell us about this - after all, DnD is first and foremost about telling a story with the aid of a rule set.
As for the OOTS, I'm kind of curious how this dagger was able to kill Nale with one hit. Or rather; yes, he was severely injured at that time, so I can easily imagine that one hit from a high-STR character, was enough to kill him. But was that +5 bonus from Collision property enough to make a difference at that instant? I suspect this has been discussed before, but for Nale to insta-die like he did in this comic, he would need to be brought from at least 1 Hp to -10 Hp; a Hp loss of 11.
If Tarquin had a STR of 16 (seems way too low, for an Epic melée-type character ruling a kingdom), that +5 dagger would in itself not be certain to kill off Nale; it would deal 9-12 damage. Indeed, in such a situation, the +5 Collision damage would make that hit a certain killer, with damage ranging from 14 to 17. Thus, with even 6 Hp remaining, one lucky strike might be enough to kill Nale.

I'd say Tarquin would have a Strength around 20 as the low end, he's almost certainly got a +6 item even if he is Old and has a -3 to Str. 16 to start +6 item -3 Old=19 ...so +1 from leveling up = 20.

So 1d4+5+5+5+Misc with a 19-20/x2 crit range is doing 16 minimum, 32 minimum on a crit. Without Collision that'd be 11 damage minimum, 22 on a crit. Collision becomes better in the presence of multipliers, such as Valorous(all weapons do 2x damage on a charge ala lances while mounted, lances with the property do 3x while mounted or 4x with the Spirited Charge feat when used while mounted) or expanding the crit range (Keen effect, Improved Crit) or crit mulitiplier (kaorti resin/ribbon material).

But still, I'm kind of surprised that this very lethal-looking weapon didn't have any more deadly enchantments to it. Is perhaps Tarquin an Assassin or something, using Death attack? In short: Which is the most lethal - Tarquin or the dagger?

If he had even half-decently selected combat feats, Tarquin. The dagger could definitely be better, though I honestly can't recall the better properties for a dagger. I know TWFers like extra damage sources/dice, and Collision is pretty decent amongst those, because it's a guaranteed 5 damage so there's only a 1/3 chance that a +1d6 property such as Flaming would equal or better it and it's 5 damage that helps punching through DR instead of being an energy type. Even Energy Resistance 2 or 5 basically hobbles those properties, especially on commonly resisted energy types such as Fire or Cold.

Also, IIRC, Collision will get multiplied on a crit due to being a flat damage bonus.

Having a +5 weapon is a sign of vanity or of a lack of regard for crunch. Maybe conspicuous consumption. Given Tarquin, probably vanity with a side of conspicuous consumption. Well, that or a sign that one had to deal with punching through DR/+5 back before updating from 3.0 to 3.5 without backup from a magic-user who'd have a magic weapon equivalent to get a +5 bonus to bring up a +1 weapon to +5 performance.

Compared to some of the other weapons the OOTS have available (Haley's +5 Icy Burst shortbow, Roy's +5(?) Undead Bane greatsword), a +5 Collision Dagger isn't much.

A vampire has Energy Resistance 10 against Cold and Electricity(Resistances under Special Qualities). So that's either 1d6+2d10(shortbows have +2d10 on a crit) or either 1d6 or 2d10(if crit) from Icy Burst. But vampires are crit immune, so unless it activates whenever a crit would occur if not for immunity, that 1d6 cold damage is completely irrelevant.

Even with the most potent case 2d10+1d6 that's still average 11+3.5 = 14.5 damage - 10 = 4.5 damage average from that. And since it's not a composite bow, she's just got a piddly 1d6 unless I've forgotten some route she's taking advantage of to get her Dex to Damage.

Because she sure as heck isn't Sneak Attacking without some magical support.

Roy's Greatsword is the most potent weapon they have to bring to bear in melee against Durkula. I believe it's specifically Disruption instead of Undead Bane, though.

Edit: Cold is not the energy type of choice against Undead, though. Skeletons, the generally superior mindless minion type, are completely immune to Cold. And IIRC it's fairly commonly resisted by most Undead besides.

V is avoiding making assumptions about Durkon based on his vampirism. The assumption that Durkon merits investigating because he is a vampire is an assumption based on Durkon's vampirism. Ergo, V is not investigating Durkon. And good on her.

You mean fie on V. Not investigating a new party member whose loyalty and aims are uncertain at best is just plain silly.

Especially when there's no Metagamium to allow it to be handwaved in interest of playing sometime this century and in this sort of context where a responsible person could be trusted to actually resolve the matter rather than leave it to escalate whether out of misunderstanding or malevolence, considering that Haley and Roy have no interest in actually resolving the matter themselves despite it being a problem waiting to grow into a powder keg.

...which is a fact that is true, but also a fact that no one (including Belkar) knows or has any reasonable grounds to suspect.

No, I'm pretty sure being raised as an Undead that's not a Necropolitan is reasonable grounds to suspect that sort of thing. Largely because those, at least, are explicitly just switching someone from living to undead, nothing more, nothing less.

Considering Belkar's awareness of such obscurity as the walls, floor, and ceiling getting in an argument over which one gets to eat the adventurers, Helms of Opposite Alignment and the potentially long-running problems arising from them and other magical forms of alignment change (not every PC is stupid enough that their EVUL version would suicidally attack the party)

[Koo Rehtorb]

Compared to some of the other weapons the OOTS have available (Haley's +5 Icy Burst shortbow, Roy's +5(?) Undead Bane greatsword), a +5 Collision Dagger isn't much.

For a +7 total weapon bonus, and the fact Tarquin is EXTREMELY genre savvy, I would have expected something likea +2 Keen, Collision, Psychokinetic Burst dagger (1d4+2+5+1d4 force, 17-20 crit threat, +1d6 force on critical hit)

It's a sidearm.

[Porthos]

In regards to Tarquin, as I see it, the dagger was one of his backup weapons. His axe was the go to "I wanna smack something into next week" fun type weapon. As a point of reference to back this up, when he was fighting with Elan, he was more or less toying with him. It never looked like he tried to really go all out with it. But when a real fight came down, out came the axe.

If his backup weapon was the equivalent of a +7 weapon, who knows what the primary ended up at.

Also, the dagger was his 'walking around town, all casual like' weapon as well, judging by the scenes in the EoB. Just like a spellcaster might have a 'Town List' memorized for when they're not expecting an all-out throw down, so to might Tarquin have a casual like weapon for when he is walking around.

That it is plenty deadly enough to do the job there also says something about where Tarquin was in the grand scheme of things.

[hamishspence]

Efficiency enhancements = euphemism for enhancement bonuses, I believe. So it's a +5 Collision Dagger, since it's not an epic weapon. If it were an epic weapon, those go up to... +10? Yeah, +10, but then that'd cost a cool 2 million before factoring in Collision and the 302 for the masterwork dagger as the base.

Actually:

There is no limit to an epic magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, to the market price modifier of an epic magic weapon special ability, or to the total of an epic magic weapon’s enhancement bonus and market price modifier.

[Coidzor]

Actually:

There is no limit to an epic magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, to the market price modifier of an epic magic weapon special ability, or to the total of an epic magic weapon’s enhancement bonus and market price modifier.

Ahh, accursed skimming and looking for the first table available. Well, we know it's not epic, at any rate, since it didn't kill Durkula by doing a retroactively ever increasing amount of damage based upon its constantly growing enhancement bonus.

[Domino Quartz]

He obviously picked it up at the local Aberzombie & Fitch store. It's in many of the same shopping malls as Quest Buy, don'tcha know.

You spelled that wrong. It should be "Aberzombie and Lich".

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

I dub the Dagger 'Last Breath Ever', it has been drawn!!!

[Socksy]

Someday, Belkar's going to get ahold of a ring of mind blank. That should change things considerably.

Maybe when they finally kill Tarquin, he can take his?

Mordenkainen's magical wrap?

Is that what you cast before Mordenkainen's Lucubration and Mount?

Actually, the first plastics were made with plant esters. Which I can totally see Laurin doing, just to make elves and druids cry about the poor mutilated plants.

I can imagine her debating internally over this. Whether to wreck the plants and have to endure the... bold weapon fashion statement, or whether to leave it.

But don't Elves believe a slain animal disrupts nature more than a harvested plant? Why not actual leather?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm surprised none of the other characters are worried about Belkar's mental health, given that he keeps jumping over the side of the airship.

I think the rest of the Order decided my ago how mentally healthy Belkar is. (The answer is "not very")

You spelled that wrong. It should be "Aberzombie and Lich".

This made my morning.

[dancrilis]

I liked this comic - character development, comedy, a cat, expansion on the current plot ... everything was good.

The bit of character development that I have to say that stuck out for me was the last panel - Belker actually came back seemingly just to say 'thanks' it is seemed fully natural, something unimaginable a few hundred panels ago.

[Gusion]

Also, Giant, not to nitpick... but technically I think it should be, "it's fine; thanks" with a semicolon instead of a comma. Granted it has been a while, but I'm fairly certain anyway.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, Giant, not to nitpick... but technically I think it should be, "it's fine; thanks" with a semicolon instead of a comma. Granted it has been a while, but I'm fairly certain anyway.

Semicolons are used to join two independent clauses together. "Thanks" is not an independent clause, so a comma must be used.

[Aedilred]

Semicolons are used to join two independent clauses together. "Thanks" is not an independent clause, so a comma must be used.

Debatable. "Thanks" is often used as an independent clause. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it usually is.

Still, there's nothing wrong with "It's fine, thanks".

[Keltest]

Debatable. "Thanks" is often used as an independent clause. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it usually is.

Still, there's nothing wrong with "It's fine, thanks".

I believe theyre both correct. It would change how its spoken, but in a work of pure text both are fine.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Debatable. "Thanks" is often used as an independent clause. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it usually is.

Still, there's nothing wrong with "It's fine, thanks".

That's a good point. I guess I don't usually think of single words as independent clauses.

[Reddish Mage]

Hah, nice catch.

Why is everyone giving Roy (and the order) such a hard time for not figuring Durkon out already? I mean, I wonder what people were saying back when Nale was impersonating Elan. I was half expecting Haley to play the "I would never mistake the one I love" trope back then, not to mention Nale wasn't doing half the act Durkula is doing now.

But maybe we have higher expectations for them, now.

Durkula has Durkon's memories and accent and hasn't skipped a beat at playing Durkon from what I've seen despite what he told Hel. There really is no reason, other than the undead status, to suspect that Durkon isn't Durkon. It appears V has enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know that its a new being, but isn't especially suspicious of the creatures motives.

[Crod]

Belkar tip-toeing to accept the dagger is a work of true art. I'm really growing fond of the art upgrade.

[Amphiox]

Stickworld doesn't have plastics, but Tarquin's lack of taste is so epic that he has a pleather-hilted dagger anyway.

Laurin made that dagger. Maybe she Gated to the Plane of Cheap-Petroleum-Based-Immitations-of-Luxury-Goods?

Also, does if Laurin is the one who made it, does it say anything about what she actually thinks of Tarquin that she didn't use real leather?

I find it interesting that, of all the characters, the degree to which they accept Durkula's ruse is in precise proportion to how 'good' they are in D&D terms. As if any form of prudent paranoia or lack of trust is somehow associated with evil.

Stupid Good = Trust always

Smart Good = Trust first, but verify when able (ie Tit-for-Tat, where cooperation is the default first move)

Neutral = Verify first, do not trust until verification is complete

Evil = Do not trust, regardless of verification

The difference between Smart Good with prudent paranoia and Neutral with prudent paranoia is how nicely one treats the object of the paranoia while waiting for verification. As such we do not actually know yet if Haley, or even Roy, is exercising prudent paranoia. As HPoH has not done anything that either of them know about that would count as verification, they are treating him nicely, even if they might privately harbor suspicions and are watching him closely privately (Haley more likely so that Roy, probably). Whereas neutral V is treated HPoH standoffishly while watching for verification.

I'm glad the Giant explained how Tarquin could kill Nale so easily with a dagger. Makes me wonder what his axe could do!

No actually reason that the axe is guaranteed to be superior to the dagger, though. We don't even know for sure which of the two is Tarquin's primary weapon. The only time we saw him use the axe it was when his intent was to "test" Elan and he wasn't serious. And we do see him use, and carry, the dagger more....