Military magic, on the tactical/operational level?

[Milodiah]

Now, while D&D wasn't strictly designed with the intent of featuring armies and battles, such a thing can quite obviously still come up depending on the world and campaign you're running. Such a thing obviously can't be thought of in the typical party dynamics of D&D, where the most you'd ever really expect to be dealing with is twenty or so combatants on the field. Also, most of the combatants aren't actually crazy-optimized prestige-classed high-level heroes and adventurers, but instead warrior NPCs, almost never above 5th level, and lacking magical inclination across at least 95% of the board. The standard pieces of medieval warfare still apply; archers and crossbowmen, cavalry versus pikemen, skirmishers screening advances, etc...but wait. That gentleman over there just shot a fireball out of his hand and wiped a pike square off the face of the planet.

How, exactly, are high-level spellcasters figured into the truly massive battles that (obviously must) occur in the world? How are they countered, and how would the standard tactics present in medieval armies be altered to compensate for walking artillery who can also jerk the Universe around on a whim?

[bjoern]

Now, while D&D wasn't strictly designed with the intent of featuring armies and battles, such a thing can quite obviously still come up depending on the world and campaign you're running. Such a thing obviously can't be thought of in the typical party dynamics of D&D, where the most you'd ever really expect to be dealing with is twenty or so combatants on the field. Also, most of the combatants aren't actually crazy-optimized prestige-classed high-level heroes and adventurers, but instead warrior NPCs, almost never above 5th level, and lacking magical inclination across at least 95% of the board. The standard pieces of medieval warfare still apply; archers and crossbowmen, cavalry versus pikemen, skirmishers screening advances, etc...but wait. That gentleman over there just shot a fireball out of his hand and wiped a pike square off the face of the planet.

How, exactly, are high-level spellcasters figured into the truly massive battles that (obviously must) occur in the world? How are they countered, and how would the standard tactics present in medieval armies be altered to compensate for walking artillery who can also jerk the Universe around on a whim?

The logistical power that a caster brings to the table changes the whole game of warfare. Sieges are now pointless because of teleport. Get all the supplies you need. Get messages in and out. If you think about it, large armies are kind of silly when one or two casters can wipe them out .

Much the same way that you don't see huge volumes of armies IRL swarming over places like a horde of locusts. Its always done with drones (scrying) and missile strikes (dying)

[Milodiah]

Basically, what you're saying here is that armies are useless because they can be knocked out in one or two hits if the enemy tries hard enough.

That's true in the real world, too. Tactical nuclear weapons. But you'd better believe we've still got armies, and you'd better believe that hundreds of millions of man-hours have been put into dealing with the threat of tactical nuclear weapons. Also, one thing I know for sure about the D&D magic system is that almost every spell has a counter to it. Teleport can be anchored/locked against, by one guy in the immediate area or by a network across the entire area. You'll have reconnaissance troops moving to locate and exploit holes in those defenses just like electronic warfare today.

All these things and implications are here, and we can't just ignore them.

[Dunsparce]

Dragon Magazine #309 has War Spells, a special spell type that requires you to take a feat first. They have crazy long casting times, but have gigantic effects, like the 3rd level spell Summon the Pack and Herd. 10 minute casting time, but it acts like SNA II except you get 25 creatures per caster level.

[Milodiah]

Right. My question isn't "what do spellcasters do on the battlefield", it's "what effect do they have on the battlefield"? Nobody in-universe going to just let that happen to their troops, shrug their shoulders, and immediately start plotting to nerf casters like we do on this board, so what are they doing about it instead?

[bjoern]

Basically, what you're saying here is that armies are useless because they can be knocked out in one or two hits if the enemy tries hard enough.

That's true in the real world, too. Tactical nuclear weapons. But you'd better believe we've still got armies, and you'd better believe that hundreds of millions of man-hours have been put into dealing with the threat of tactical nuclear weapons. Also, one thing I know for sure about the D&D magic system is that almost every spell has a counter to it. Teleport can be anchored/locked against, by one guy in the immediate area or by a network across the entire area. You'll have reconnaissance troops moving to locate and exploit holes in those defenses just like electronic warfare today.

All these things and implications are here, and we can't just ignore them.

Good points, but at that point the only purpose of a wizard is to counter other wizards.
A warlord showing up at a city with hundreds of guys is asking for it.

What I was getting at before was that the presence of magic makes warfare more tactical. Id say even.more so than IRL. With such awesome power, what really is the purpose of soldiers besides to help maintain The epic fantasy setting. I'd think they would just be a liability on a battlefield against a single epic caster.

If I was a d&d warlord I don't think I'd risk revealing my army until I had all the casters handled. Using reconnaissance and assassination to ensure that my army was safe. Once that was secured, then send in the ground troops to steam roll the city.

[JusticeZero]

Compare a medieval siege to what combat looks like today with drones, nuclear weapons, air drops, nuclear submarines, and the like.
Modern-day warfare is what battle looks like if you have lower-mid-level casters, more or less. If both sides have access to high level spellcasters, you need to start digging into speculative military scifi, and is generally found described under the general title on this board as a "Tippy-verse". Seriously, just E6 already starts making you have to fiddle with tactics a bit, and it still looks like a fantasy setting. And my game was DSP Psionics-only, which is a bit more balanced and less disruptive to standard tactical thought.

[Milodiah]

Good points, but at that point the only purpose of a wizard is to counter other wizards.
A warlord showing up at a city with hundreds of guys is asking for it.

What I was getting at before was that the presence of magic makes warfare more tactical. Id say even.more so than IRL. With such awesome power, what really is the purpose of soldiers besides to help maintain The epic fantasy setting. I'd think they would just be a liability on a battlefield against a single epic caster.

If I was a d&d warlord I don't think I'd risk revealing my army until I had all the casters handled. Using reconnaissance and assassination to ensure that my army was safe. Once that was secured, then send in the ground troops to steam roll the city.

You say that ground troops don't matter, but then mention your ground troops.

There will be ground troops no matter what, because all of warfare says so. In the 21st century when the President of the United States, the President of the Russian Federation, the Prime Minister of France, etc. etc. have the theoretical ability to kill all life on Earth with a simple order (making them...what? Level 100 wizards?), we have infantrymen and rifles. And I'm not about to get into nuclear game theory, I do that far too much already. What I want to know is how the introduction of magic to the battlefield will change the battlefield, just like how tanks did, aircraft did, the Gatling gun did, chariots and cavalry did, and all other things throughout the ages.

[bjoern]

Right. My question isn't "what do spellcasters do on the battlefield", it's "what effect do they have on the battlefield"? Nobody in-universe going to just let that happen to their troops, shrug their shoulders, and immediately start plotting to nerf casters like we do on this board, so what are they doing about it instead?

I believe there's a class in silver marches (maybe) silverymoon something or other. That is geared towards that.

Purpose of a mage on the battlefield

Defending mages job is to dispell any magics protecting the troops and then gas them all or whatever. Watch out for teleporting mages behind the wall and dropping demons in there. Have sorcerers on hand to counter spell possibly.

Offensive mages. Already have your buffs in place. Counter spell enemies dispell magics . This is important because if you let just a couple enemy spells get off, you start losing lots of men. Try to breach the wall and cause chaos without falling into a trap.

Its a huge gamble waging open war for both sides the lives of both armies boils down to a few casters and who makes the first mistake.
Much safer to play that game with small seek and destroy parties consisting of the best mage killing set up you can think of.

[JusticeZero]

Start here.
I do not know if there was ever a full description of warfare in such a world.

[Milodiah]

Right. My question isn't "what do spellcasters do on the battlefield", it's "what effect do they have on the battlefield"? Nobody in-universe going to just let that happen to their troops, shrug their shoulders, and immediately start plotting to nerf casters like we do on this board, so what are they doing about it instead?

You re-answered the question I said I didn't have. Not trying to be rude, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as it, but what I'm asking about is the second part of this rather than the first. Infantry in the First World War didn't just hold still and wait for the gas, artillery, and machine guns to kill them because those three things are OP, they adapted to it and found ways to not die immediately, which was trench warfare. I'm asking how those same line infantry would be adapting to the crazy things magic can do here.

[bjoern]

You say that ground troops don't matter, but then mention your ground troops.

There will be ground troops no matter what, because all of warfare says so. In the 21st century when the President of the United States, the President of the Russian Federation, the Prime Minister of France, etc. etc. have the theoretical ability to kill all life on Earth with a simple order (making them...what? Level 100 wizards?), we have infantrymen and rifles. And I'm not about to get into nuclear game theory, I do that far too much already. What I want to know is how the introduction of magic to the battlefield will change the battlefield, just like how tanks did, aircraft did, the Gatling gun did, chariots and cavalry did, and all other things throughout the ages.

It changes the battlefield by eliminating the validity of a large ground army. Look at WW1. huge loss of life.....massive. never before had the world seen weapons that could enable 10 men to wipe out 1000.

WW2 was much less loss of life. Because the world realized that if you congregate for long you're in big trouble.


The large army is necessary for maintaining control once the war is over. But the war is already won or lost before the legions start marching in.

[JusticeZero]

They adapt to it the same way modern day phalanx troops with tower shields and short swords do. By not existing.

[Milodiah]

Fortunately, the one thing I don't have to worry about in my setting is large-scale teleportation becoming ultra-efficient strategic airlift systems. So, minus that capability in this discussion.

I suppose it's a good thing I unintentionally dodged the Tippyverse implications before I even knew what they were

[Milodiah]

It changes the battlefield by eliminating the validity of a large ground army. Look at WW1. huge loss of life.....massive. never before had the world seen weapons that could enable 10 men to wipe out 1000.

WW2 was much less loss of life. Because the world realized that if you congregate for long you're in big trouble.


The large army is necessary for maintaining control once the war is over. But the war is already won or lost before the legions start marching in.

Rough estimates, WWI casualties: ~37,000,000
Rough estimates, WWII casualties: ~72,000,000

?

[bjoern]

You re-answered the question I said I didn't have. Not trying to be rude, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as it, but what I'm asking about is the second part of this rather than the first. Infantry in the First World War didn't just hold still and wait for the gas, artillery, and machine guns to kill them because those three things are OP, they adapted to it and found ways to not die immediately, which was trench warfare. I'm asking how those same line infantry would be adapting to the crazy things magic can do here.

OK. I see you're angle now.

Don't group up. You've got more people than he has spells.
Misdirection, some sacrificial lambs try to district while another group sneaks up.
Have MDJ grenades handy if affordable. Something to disable his sight. Like smoking rhe battlefield or something. Silence.
Movement is key. A teleport item to get right next to him and take him down (maybe)

Or just overwhelm with ludicrous volumes of manpower and swarm like undead

[Milodiah]

GUYS. GUYS. GUYS.


I think the answer I've been somewhat unwilling to accept is true.

High-level casters might be analogous to tactical nuclear weapons, in that their deployment on the battlefield constitutes an escalation of the war which will likely immediately precede the D&D equivalent of strategic nuclear warfare, which I shudder to even consider. At the very least, deploying their top-tier spells would be. Laws & customs of war and whatnot, mutually assured destruction. We didn't use chemical weapons in WWII, the Nazis didn't either, primarily because neither side wanted to open that can of worms, maybe 5th level spells up would be like that.


But the question still is "How does your army of mostly dudes with spears plan for the occasional dude who shoots fire from his hands"? Skirmishers dedicated to surgically removing them from the enemy ranks before the lines hit? Counter-wizards trying to block inbound spells? What?


And to the above, troop dispositions are a valid but not ideal answer. A close order formation breaks cavalry but opens you up for magic annihilation. An open order formation invites cavalry charges but reduces loss of life from casters. It's a solution and an element of D&D-universe strategy, but I personally want to explore every option.

[bjoern]

Rough estimates, WWI casualties: ~37,000,000
Rough estimates, WWII casualties: ~72,000,000

?

I'm not counting civilian dead

WW 1 military dead about 39m
WW2 military dead about 22m

[JusticeZero]

Next one I saw..
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...Wizard-vs-Army
There's a thread that pits one solitary 20th level Wizard against the entire planet Earth circa right now. As I recall, Earth was completely hosed barring extreme houseruling assistance. Not sure where it is atm though.

[bjoern]

GUYS. GUYS. GUYS.


I think the answer I've been somewhat unwilling to accept is true.

High-level casters might be analogous to tactical nuclear weapons, in that their deployment on the battlefield constitutes an escalation of the war which will likely immediately precede the D&D equivalent of strategic nuclear warfare, which I shudder to even consider. At the very least, deploying their top-tier spells would be. Laws & customs of war and whatnot, mutually assured destruction. We didn't use chemical weapons in WWII, the Nazis didn't either, primarily because neither side wanted to open that can of worms, maybe 5th level spells up would be like that.


But the question still is "How does your army of mostly dudes with spears plan for the occasional dude who shoots fire from his hands"? Skirmishers dedicated to surgically removing them from the enemy ranks before the lines hit? Counter-wizards trying to block inbound spells? What?


And to the above, troop dispositions are a valid but not ideal answer. A close order formation breaks cavalry but opens you up for magic annihilation. An open order formation invites cavalry charges but reduces loss of life from casters. It's a solution and an element of D&D-universe strategy, but I personally want to explore every option.

A wizards big thing is getting away from you. Whether its flying with wind wall, teleport, haste. If you can keep him from getting away then he dies....assuming he doesn't kill you first. Simplest things I can think of is to take away his spell components. Deafen him, blind him, smoke grenade him so he is chocked up and unable to speak.

[Milodiah]

In that case it's an issue of getting adventurer-grade guys into the inevitable defensive strongpoint the spellcaster(s) would occupy in the ranks, and then neutralizing him.

...ironically, the best way to adapt the party-versus-encounter scale of D&D into full-scale warfare is seeming like it is to deploy small parties into encounters with the biggest threats.


I'm even more hesitant to broach the topic of "the D&D air force"...

[bjoern]

In that case it's an issue of getting adventurer-grade guys into the inevitable defensive strongpoint the spellcaster(s) would occupy in the ranks, and then neutralizing him.

...ironically, the best way to adapt the party-versus-encounter scale of D&D into full-scale warfare is seeming like it is to deploy small parties into encounters with the biggest threats.

Right. It has the best ROI . If it succeeded then you took out a caster and serious threat to your army. If it fails, you just lose a handful of guys.

[Milodiah]

Right. It has the best ROI . If it succeeded then you took out a caster and serious threat to your army. If it fails, you just lose a handful of guys.

While at the time appealing to this generation's obsession with getting to be "the special ops guys"...

[Frostthehero]

Really the only way to counter a high level mage is with another mage. Interestingly enough, Hinjo from order of the stick said that "a sorcerer that powerful doesn't engage enemies, he alters the course of entire battles". But even a really high level mage is unlikely to be able to wipe out an entire army. In order to stop a high level arcane caster from crippling you, you have three options.

1. counter him with another mage, or a band of lower level mages. The small mages can spread out and smash him with force damage, forcing him to either pick them off one by one, or to try and do as much damage to the attacking force, thereby removing him from later. Or those low level mages could just use spectral hand and shivering touch.

2. send your conscripts forward as cannon fodder, and hope he wastes most of his good spells

3 go home.

[Milodiah]

I'm glad somebody remembered that strip, it's been in the back of my mind as I try to puzzle this out. But you can't ever disregard the power of massed troops deployed well...aka Tucker's Kobolds.

[Lightlawbliss]

A wizards big thing is getting away from you. Whether its flying with wind wall, teleport, haste. If you can keep him from getting away then he dies....assuming he doesn't kill you first. Simplest things I can think of is to take away his spell components. Deafen him, blind him, smoke grenade him so he is chocked up and unable to speak.

your thinking too late in the game, you should send people in the day before to steal the wizards spellbooks (or destroy if necessary but those things are expensive), start big fires, and generally make preparing spells a pain. it would be even better to make the mages cause all the problems and get them locked up in the "secure" part of the dungeons.

I'm sure some mercenaries would love the job of "go into this city and take every magic item or spellbook you can as far from the city as possible.

[Milodiah]

You're functioning on the magic = spellbook assumption, but there are quite a few caster classes (especially the main battle caster class, the freaking warmage), that don't operate on spellbooks.

Also, the whole sneaky-sneaky schtick doesn't transfer as well to grand tactics. Sure, misdirection and subversion have their roles, but they are rather limited on the actual field of battle. Which is what we're discussing here.

[Lightlawbliss]

You're functioning on the magic = spellbook assumption, but there are quite a few caster classes (especially the main battle caster class, the freaking warmage), that don't operate on spellbooks.

I was actually not running on that assumption. I was suggesting making preparing spells a pain, which taking spellbooks away is part of. Starting fires (another task I listed) is also very good at taking resources, reducing moral, and consuming time for casters to sleep (especially if there house is one of the ones you burn).

edit: also, when have spys NOT been part of the grand plan?

[JusticeZero]

When you are dealing with high (not mid) level wizards, all those measures you are talking about to neutralize a caster simply don't work. At that point, things like Rope Trick are quaint and primitive techniques by which you learned the basics. Now, the Wizard hangs out on an inaccessible demiplane and sends projections and the like to do their mayhem. Go ahead and kill them; they'll be back shortly. Their spellbooks are going to be inaccessable and likely indestructible. It's not just "I have so many abjurations on that thing even I don't remember what they all do", but then add "Oh, and I have some spares scattered around the multiverse with reset clones too".

[bjoern]

You're functioning on the magic = spellbook assumption, but there are quite a few caster classes (especially the main battle caster class, the freaking warmage), that don't operate on spellbooks.

Also, the whole sneaky-sneaky schtick doesn't transfer as well to grand tactics. Sure, misdirection and subversion have their roles, but they are rather limited on the actual field of battle. Which is what we're discussing here.

Without some kind of out of battle trickery like create a ruse to get the enemy mage to leave town or something, then you're back to going toe to toe with him. Which isn't a goodplace to be.

Let's look at time stop. That right there can be a killer. During those free rounds he's going to annihilate huge swaths out of your army using delayed traps that trigger when the TS ends.

Or even something dumb like a trench pit, concealed by an illusion. There are just so many ways to gobble up soldiers its not funny.

If your looking for ways that a squad of troopers can take on a mage then surprise is your only hope. And move quickly. Each round that he lives is another round that he can wipe out your chances of victory.

Tricking the mage into being where he isn't needed and making sure that battle critical areas are where he is not.