How did Xykon manage to kill Durakon?

[andhaira]

In the Beginning of Evil book, when Durakon is fighting Xykon he even says that he has been planning to fight Xykon for almost a year, the entire time Xykon was camped outside. Being a powerful wizard, Durakon also undoubtedly has knowledge of liches.

So why didn't he find some way to protect himself from Energy Drain? That's like Undead 101, it's their main attack.

The fight really bothers me. I wish Xykon had won some other way, by cheating, by using outside help, etc.

What do you all think?

[FujinAkari]

Because he didn't know anything about liches. I'm not sure why you think a wizard would have excessive amounts of points invested into Knowledge: Religion, but it is evident he didn't.

Vaarsuvius knew nothing about Liches.
Roy, who EXPLICITLY STUDIED liches, couldn't find anything about them.

The knowledge simply isn't available.

[NerdyKris]

He was cocky. He didn't think Xykon was a threat because he was a sorcerer. He only came out because

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Xykon threatened to force Lirian's soul to watch her zombified body get eaten, thus revealing the location of her soul that he'd been searching for.

So right away he was acting on emotion for an attack he never intended to have. Dorokan's plan was to just ignore Xykon. He was forced into a battle. He was not planning on attacking him at any point, so he had no defenses set up.

[SaintRidley]

So why didn't he find some way to protect himself from Energy Drain? That's like Undead 101, it's their main attack.

No, not really. It's a type of attack common to several varieties of undead, but by no means the main attack type. Nor is there any particularly compelling reason to suspect a lich as capable of draining energy without knowing a lot more about the specific lich in question than Dorukan did.

Plus what Kris said.

[orrion]

In the Beginning of Evil book, when Durakon is fighting Xykon he even says that he has been planning to fight Xykon for almost a year, the entire time Xykon was camped outside. Being a powerful wizard, Durakon also undoubtedly has knowledge of liches.

So why didn't he find some way to protect himself from Energy Drain? That's like Undead 101, it's their main attack.

The fight really bothers me. I wish Xykon had won some other way, by cheating, by using outside help, etc.

What do you all think?

Undead don't routinely have access to 9th level spells. Nor is there any reason to assume a particular Sorcerer has the Energy Drain spell over any other spell. Whatever knowledge Dorukan may have had about liches, he had zero knowledge about Xykon in particular. He also didn't go into that fight prepared and thinking logically. He went into that fight angry, desperate, and emotionally distraught.

Kinda did cheat. Not saying Prismatic Spray would have won the fight, mind you, but the way it failed.. yeah.

[factotum]

Yeah, Xykon had Energy Drain because he was a high-level sorcerer who happened to hate wizards and had thus optimised himself to fight them--it had nothing to do with him being undead. Also, as pointed out above, Dorukan had not prepared for *this* particular fight--he'd no doubt prepared to fight Xykon once he'd fought past the outer defences, not out on the open field in the middle of Xykon's army. That was why he lost--he thought with all his power he could jump into the middle of an army led by a high-level sorcerer and curbstomp them, which was not the case.

[dancrilis]

I think I will stick with these two.

I would say Xykon won fairly.
Dorukan was not planning to fight, after all Xykon had been out there for 6 months to memory and had not annoyed him much, so it can be assumed that Dorukan was just getting on with his life.
This means that Dorukan's spells would be for is normal usage, i.e magic items, scrying, calling helpers, etc.
They would not be geared for combat, except that which he felt would be needed taking into account the traps in the tower.

Also he immediately teleported out and attacked Xykon, i.e teleport and a quickened fly spell.
Consider the fact that he is a venerable wizard, which means he has a -6 to constitution. Assuming a 12 to start with that leaves 6 (a minus 2) penalty.

That leaves a level 30 wizard with a maximum of 60 hit points and that is not enough to cause even a mid range spellcaster any trouble with a decent spell.
Gate allows the wizard to cast buffs on himself to increase his saves and hit points, (bears endurance alone for an extra 60 hit points in the above example). This is the reason given in the book for why Dorukan did nothing during the Gate.

And why does the gate needs to be an army instead of a single powerful creature?
In order to ensure that the enemy is focused on them rather then attacking the wizard while he is casting buffs, if a Solar was summoned in Xykon might just have attacked Dorukan in the hope that it would disappear when he was dead, defeating an army on the other hand could take precedence as otherwise there amount of attacks might begin to take a toll.

Now to the energy drains and the amount of them.
We will say that the first gets 5 levels.
Dorukan is now down his epic spells (call it 3 slots) and his top two 9th level spells, considering he already cast one of them he only has one left, it might not be useful in a fight, for example Dominate Monster, or it could have been a Time Stop used while Xykon fought the angels, and used to cast more buffs, in case Xykon did attack him or the goblins started shooting him, or a Disjunction that he felt would not be helpful etc.

Then looking through the spell list for Wizards there are a lot of spells that would be useless in that fight, but could be prepared easily for general use.

Unfortunately I do not have the book with me to give a full play by play of the fight.

But Dorukan acted rashly from emotion, after an extended period of ignoring Xykon almost completely, other then the occasional scrying which would reveal very little about Xykon since Xykon had no need to cast spells during that time.

Xykon won because Dorukan was arrogant, not due to any special plot enforced powers.

Having said all that there is a certain amount of plot protecting all aspects of the story, as after all the story does follow a plot.

Further ... Xykon ... is a Lich, he could happily have no necromancy at all and basing your strategy on him having energy drain is foolish, you would be much better enhancing fortitude for Wail of the Banshee and HP for Power Word Kill, which may automatically kill you, rather then Energy Drain which may mess you up but is not an automatic win if it succeeds.
Because had Xykon won automatically with either of those you may still be complaining about the fight.

Similarly Dorukan would also need to be prepared for Xykon having a Time Stop, or Shapechange, or a Meteor Swarm, because Dorukan does not have Xykon's spell list (not to mention all the other spells Xykon may have outside the core book, or unique spells he researched himself).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I actually really like that fight because it shows one of the more interesting things about Xykon: his hatred for Wizards. I also think that if the fight had been won with "outside help" like you suggested, it would only serve to make Xykon look like less of a threat. As for why Dorukan wasn't protected, I agree with everyone else.

[Reathin]

Assuming you are referring to Dorukan, the epic level wizard and former member of the Order of the Scribble rather than Dura-kon, the semi-annual convention of individuals with high Con scores (last year with special guest O-Chul!)...


Keep in mind Dorukan's mental state at that moment. For the most part, he's been resisting every taunt Xykon's thrown his way, but when he's finally shown something that really strikes a nerve (sorta. He didn't respond for quite the reason our favorite necromancer expected, but it was still a very emotional moment), he's not operating at perfect, "sitting in my armchair reading a webcomic" calmness. Further, there's something of a time-crunch. As a caster apparently capable of casting Soul Bind, Xykon likely has means of getting out of there very quickly if he wants (ie. Teleport is likely in the repertoire of such a character), so Doru's likely to prioritize getting

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his lover's soul

back over defenses against one specific type of spell (the lich touch is so below the notice of an epic character he would only have to worry about Eneveration and Energy drain. Turns out that was relevant, but he didn't know that at the time).

I honestly suspect it's more the emotional thing than concern about loosing his target though. Combine that with the fairly common wizardly arrogance of superiority over sorcerers and protecting himself didn't seem as critical to him as his primary objective in that fight.

[SlashDash]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't a major issue in that fight and the book in general was how wizards were constantly underestimating sorcerers?

[Kish]

It was.

And frankly, threads like this generally strike me as exhibiting the same attitude: Why did the wizard lose to the sorcerer? Wizards are Batman!

As other people have noted, without Xykon's spell list, Dorukan had no reason to prepare for being level drained; Xykon is a lich, not a vampire, and he didn't even have any wights among his minions at the time.

[Morty]

Xykon won because he played to his strengths and against Dorukan's. Dorukan wasn't planning to go outside and fight - he was obviously banking on the enemies storming his stronghold and getting pulverized by his defences. He certainly didn't intend to fight Xykon head-on outside the dungeon, which Xykon exploited by finally providing an incentive to leave he couldn't ignore, leading to Dorukan facing him without the benefits of a custom-tailored spell list.

[jidasfire]

The idea, I think, was that Durokan was probably prepared for a ton of varying attacks, spending all his free rounds waiting for Xykon to fight the angels putting a variety of defenses in place. But, underestimating sorcerors the way he did, he singly did not consider that Xykon would simply use one remarkably dirty tactic over and over and over again.

It's not really that absurd, even if you consider the idea that Xykon simply had to win for the story to progress. Dorukan was a man whose entire magical strategy was built around defense in great strength and variety. He likely assumed his battle with Xykon would be one of straight attrition, and given his greater number of spells and Xykon's probably stupidity, he would be able to take the day. He might have stood a better chance had he pressed an attack during the angel fight, but his psychology suggests he would do what he did, and over-prepare. Xykon, on the other hand, seemed ready for this, and knowing that there is no easy magical defense against Energy Drain, slammed his opponent with overwhelming force.

In addition to being a meta-commentary on how spellcasters work, it was completely fitting for both characters, and thus Xykon's victory, while luck may have played some role in it, was no mere fluke or simple author fiat trumping logic.

[Khay]

Dorukan lost because of plot. That's not to say he lost because of author fiat - he didn't - just that his defeat can be directly traced to factors not related to mechanics. And he stopped casting spells post-Gate. It's hard to win a battle when you do that.

[Terrador]

Beyond the obvious plot reasons, Dorukan fell because of wizardly arrogance. He was operating on the assumption that his class was superior, while failing to utilize the reason that his class is superior. A well-built Sorcerer can and will have a better day-to-day "looky loo what will we be fighting today?" setup than a similarly-built Wizard; the trick is that the Wizard comes back in twelve hours with all the right spells and stomps the encounter, if he doesn't like it to begin with. Not to mention that Xykon likely had far superior HP and somewhat superior saves (no Con or Dex penalty; Xykon has a Wis boost from lichdom), so he wins straight-up numbers games even harder.

[Angelalex242]

It's interesting Xykon curbstomped Durakon (the Tier 1 Wizard) while getting curbstomped himself by Lord Soon (The Tier 5 Paladin.)

Xykon was toast right there if Miko hadn't interfered.

[factotum]

It's interesting Xykon curbstomped Durakon (the Tier 1 Wizard) while getting curbstomped himself by Lord Soon (The Tier 5 Paladin.)

Soon had the enormous advantage of being incorporeal throughout the fight, meaning Xykon couldn't actually hit him half the time with his most powerful spells--plus he may have had other advantages we don't know about from being a positive energy spirit. The living Soon would likely not have fared so well.

[mouser9169]

It's interesting Xykon curbstomped Durakon (the Tier 1 Wizard) while getting curbstomped himself by Lord Soon (The Tier 5 Paladin.)

Xykon was toast right there if Miko hadn't interfered.

Other than the obvious, both were victims of PLOT, Soon caught Xykon totally by surprise.

As to the first in general, liches are one of the few undead where what they ARE isn't nearly as important as what they WERE. All are obviously high level casters, but the exact details of what kind of caster and what other special abilities they bring to the table can vary greatly from one lich to the next, especially when you throw epic levels into the mix (where you can have a 20/20 cleric/sorcerer or something similar).

About the only trait I can think they all seem to have in common is susceptibility to boredom: hence the "game" of the Twisted Rune, among other things.

[Koo Rehtorb]

He picked up the idiot ball.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's interesting Xykon curbstomped Durakon (the Tier 1 Wizard) while getting curbstomped himself by Lord Soon (The Tier 5 Paladin.)

Xykon was toast right there if Miko hadn't interfered.

Xykon's near-loss there was pretty much entirely because he was taken by surprise by the ghost-martyrs and had no idea how to deal with them until Redcloak told him. Soon also couldn't be hit with some of Xykon's better spells.

[Morty]

It's interesting Xykon curbstomped Durakon (the Tier 1 Wizard) while getting curbstomped himself by Lord Soon (The Tier 5 Paladin.)

Xykon was toast right there if Miko hadn't interfered.

It's almost as if the tier system doesn't mean jack when it comes to this story. Imagine that.

[NerdyKris]

It's almost as if the tier system doesn't mean jack when it comes to this story. Imagine that.

It's almost as if there's well thought out, explained reasons why fights go the way they do, that readers could see if they dropped their "X always beats Y!" bias!


Nah, that can't be it. Let's have fifteen more posts about how it's "plot contrivance" and "idiot balls" from people who haven't read the reasons already posted.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's almost as if there's well thought out, explained reasons why fights go the way they do, that readers could see if they dropped their "X always beats Y!" bias!


Nah, that can't be it. Let's have fifteen more posts about how it's "plot contrivance" and "idiot balls" from people who haven't read the reasons already posted.

Of course not. There's no way logic and reasoning could overcome the commandment "spellcasters always win, especially the wizards".

[NerdyKris]

I'm also curious how many people saying Xykon shouldn't have won have actually read the book, or at least looked back at it before posting. Because more than a few seem to be under the impression Dorukan planned to attack Xykon outside the mountain, and therefore would have been prepared, which is the opposite of what happened.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Come on. He literally stopped casting spells for multiple rounds and just stood there and let Xykon beat on him.

[NerdyKris]

No, we see Xykon counter the first spell, then cast energy drain.
Then we see him cast another energy drain. Here there might have been another spell from Dorukan prior to his casting, but it's reasonable to assume it was just not shown.
Dorukan then casts a flame spell and it does no damage.
Xykon casts energy drain again and Dorukan's flight spell goes away and he starts falling.
This prevents him from casting another spell and Xykon casts energy drain again.
Then one more time kills him.

At the point he's falling, it's unlikely he had any spells left capable of damaging Xykon, so why show them? We clearly see Xykon counter one spell and resist another. So the implication is that he was reisting the one other possible spell Dorukan might have cast, but it would have broken up the panels. We don't need to see every action taken.

After the first energy drain, most of the spells Dorukan could have harmed Xykon with were gone. (He'd already cast a bunch anyways) So the implication when Xykon resists whatever that flame spell is was that Dorukan was already doomed. There were no spells left to harm Xykon with.

[Darth Paul]

Come on. He literally stopped casting spells for multiple rounds and just stood there and let Xykon beat on him.

Yes, it was almost lifelike, as if he were stunned by the sudden loss of his best (remaining) spells, frantically thinking "what do I do now?"; and Xykon, who had no such quandaries, hit him again while he was on the ropes. Almost as if Dorukan were a real person in real time, rather than being a player who can take 10 minutes to read through their character's spell lists, calculate ranges and area of effect, discard six or seven options, and then finally decide which spell to cast. Which is, quite frankly, the most irritating thing about spellcaster players in D&D; their insistence that their characters should be able to perform in a 6-second round, by instinct, what it takes the player 5 minutes in real time with a calculator to do. (I'm guilty of it too, but I try not to be.)

Dorukan fell apart. That's all there is to it. He was stunned by the viciousness of Xykon's attack, couldn't come up with a response under pressure, and then was just being slammed over the head with Energy Drain. He had not planned on this fight, and when it started going south, he was routed.

I found Dorukan's fall realistic and hard to read, and at the same time a crowning moment of badassery for Xykon.

[Koo Rehtorb]

No. The fight was a plot contrivance.

It is conceivable that, with literally a year to prepare, Dorukan was completely unprepared for the fight. After all, he wasn't expecting to be attacking Xykon at that very moment. One might think that, considering he knew that Xykon killed an epic level druid, he might have at least taken the fight seriously, but it's not inconceivable that he was dangerously overconfident.

What's a plot contrivance is that an epic level wizard who has to have seen hundreds of dangerous fights over his career was unprepared to the point of lacking so much as a Dimension Door to get away when things went sour. Someone incompetent enough to teleport into an enemy army, against an (unknown at best) undead creature, without knowing either exactly what it was capable of or having a means of escaping is too incompetent to have reached the level that he did.

In the words of Xykon to V, "How you can have 10th level spell slots and still blow a Concentration check THAT easy is beyond me". The same principle applies here. No high level character should be dropping the ball on these sorts of things, but the difference is where V was unprepared for high level fights due to the unique situtation; Dorukan shouldn't have been. He had earned his level the hard way. But hey, maybe he'd just gone senile.

That being said, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with characters messing up fights that they shouldn't have. 3.5e is a lousy framework for telling a story in and it probably demands some fudging. It doesn't bother me.

[NerdyKris]

He wasn't incompetent, his love was about to be tortured to the point of insanity. It made him react emotionally. He didn't want to dimension door away because he still wanted to save Lirian. The love of his life was being held captive. So he kept the fight going past the point he could have escaped. Like I pointed out, we see him casting two spells that Xykon counters and resists. He was getting desperate. You're looking at this in a cold and calculating manner. Dorukan was looking at it as someone who's wife was about to be forced to watch her own body be eaten, and then taken away to be lost again.


And as mentioned, both here and in the scene, Dorukan NEVER prepared for the fight. He NEVER planned to face Xykon at all. Even Xykon pointed out going inside the mountain would be suicide, due to the traps. Up until the conversation where he showed Dorukan the gem containing Lirian's soul, Dorukan hadn't prepared a single spell, plan, tactic, or ANYTHING to deal with Xykon. It was the same as if he'd just ran up to the mountain that second. Dorukan himself said he was simply ignoring Xykon, like any other wandering person outside the mountain.

Have you actually read the book? Go back and read the entire scene starting from "six months ago". It's very clear what happened and why.

[Koo Rehtorb]

So he kept the fight going past the point he could have escaped.

With the way that negative levels work it is extremely unlikely that he would lose the ability to cast Dimension Door before he died. Unless he either:
1) Had already used a ton of high level spells before the fight.
2) Had teleported into the middle of an army without an escape prepared.

Either of which would paint him as dangerously incompetent.

You're looking at this in a cold and calculating manner. Dorukan was looking at it as someone who's wife was about to be forced to watch her own body be eaten, and then taken away to be lost again.

In his own words he said he wasn't worried about her mental state. He knew she was strong enough to take that. He just wanted to rescue her. He knew Xykon wanted the tower badly enough to siege it for a year, therefore he knew that Xykon wasn't about to leave immediately after destroying her body. He could have waited for a day, prepared for the battle, and then gone in and saved her. He also could have retreated after his impulsive attack, then come back the next day and saved her.

And as mentioned, both here and in the scene, Dorukan NEVER prepared for the fight. He NEVER planned to face Xykon at all. Even Xykon pointed out going inside the mountain would be suicide, due to the traps.

He certainly claimed to have prepared for the fight, but granted he wasn't expecting to fight Xykon at that moment outside of the tower. Doesn't matter. Over the course of a year he certainly should have put some thought into planning for all contingencies, that's what a competent wizard does. "Spells useful for fighting Xykon inside my tower" and "spells useful for fighting Xykon outside of my tower" have a good deal of overlap.

It strains credibility that an epic level wizard would be that inept. Careless and foolhardy adventurers don't survive to a ripe old age.