How did Xykon manage to kill Durakon?

[Tvtyrant]

Xykon beat Durakon because Durakon was a person first and a wizard second, which is exactly how Xykon beat Lirian before this. We might as well ask "why did an epic level druid with access to 9th level spells not have Sunburst and other undead-killing spells prepped when she knew that Undead were not effected by her Virus?" Because she believed inherently in her defenses, which included a gigantic army and a mcguffin curse that let her beat an epic level Sorcerer with a punch to the face.

Durakon could have had Imprisonment prepared and hoped for a failed will save, or quickened anchor+forcecaged him for extra time to figure out how to kill him, or even used Disintegrate (Undead have really bad fort saves.) He did not do any of those things because he believed he would never have to go out and fight, and would have weeks of warning before a confrontation. If Xykon had gone into the castle-o-horrors he likely would have been destroyed, but instead he got Durakon to leave the castle.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Again I don't think he was incompetent, to repost from earlier.

Okay yes, granted. He may well have been perfectly competent and it just wasn't shown on screen. It's impossible to say.

Had Dukokon fled via teleport he would be down his spell books - he would never have been able to challenge Xykon again, because he could not replenish his spells (even assuming he could get a restoration cast on himself with no money).

Personally I sort of assume that he could do something like teleport or dimension door to the other side of his tower and just walk in the back door before Xykon could hunt him down, but really that's just speculation.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I take it you think it's beside the point that Luke was basically a bumbling incompetent at that point in Star Wars anyway?

He wasn't incompetent; he was just low level. There's a difference.

He was a perfectly capable of person in numerous other things he did over the two movies; he was just completely outclassed by Vader at the time.

[Deliverance]

Had Dukokon fled via teleport he would be down his spell books - he would never have been able to challenge Xykon again, because he could not replenish his spells (even assuming he could get a restoration cast on himself with no money).

Since we are dealing with what-ifs, I'd like to note a detail you may have overlooked: we already know that Durokan deliberately left a hole in his defenses by allowing summoning spells through the Cloister. This was not a little hole only tuned to the specific summoning spell he used for Lirian's visits as it also worked for the summoning of Celia via the Talisman. To the best of our knowledge, it works like Celia says it does, no blocking of summoning spells at all.

If I were a highly intelligent great wizard and my spellbook was important for me to have access to magic, and I created a great magic that would make it impossible for me to approach my spellbook by magical means, but left a hole in that magic that allowed the summoning of objects through those defences, I'd probably spend the time on creating magical means for me to fetch my spellbook and make sure to always have it available. (Well, that and stashing at least one copy of the spellbook or at least a spellbook with the most important magic somewhere else. I'm paranoid like that: I hate single points of failure situations and think in terms of contingency planning.)

But then, I'm not a highly intelligent great wizard. :D

If we ARE making what-ifs in the first place and hence extrapolating based on the knowledge we've been presented with, I consider it much more likely that a powerful D&D wizard in that situation would do as I suggest than that he'd not do it.

The simplest non-cheesy way to do it would probably be via the level 7 arcane summoning spell Instant Summons, though that one has the attendant danger of not working if somebody else has taken possession of the item, so something more powerful might be preferable.

[orrion]

He wasn't incompetent; he was just low level. There's a difference.

He was a perfectly capable of person in numerous other things he did over the two movies; he was just completely outclassed by Vader at the time.

Ok. And Dorukan was a perfectly capable person in numerous things he did before he spent however many decades at his stronghold getting older and not adventuring. He just got owned by Xykon at the time (because Xykon took advantage of his weaknesses).

[Koo Rehtorb]

Ok. And Dorukan was a perfectly capable person in numerous things he did before he spent however many decades at his stronghold getting older and not adventuring. He just got owned by Xykon at the time (because Xykon took advantage of his weaknesses).

Again, there's a difference. Dorukan was supposedly a legitimate challenge for Xykon, roughly equal in terms of power with a small possible variance one way or another. Luke was outclassed in terms of ability compared to Vader.

Dorukan was powerful but incompetent. Luke was competent but weak. Different concepts.

[Unisus]

@Koo: Do you know "Willow"? I guess you would not like the way Willow defeated the evil queen Bavmorda... it's very similar to Xykon defeating Dorukan.

[Angelalex242]

Luke actually didn't win his fight against Vader and the Emperor. What he did was turn his much more powerful father against the Emperor, and that did the trick. Inverse Dun Moch, they call it, filling a target with positive feelings and love to snap them out of the Dark Side. After all, he was still a level 10-11 vs. a level 19 and a level 20.

[The Giant]

The fact of the matter is that there is no possible set of tactics that would ever satisfy the folks who have decided that wizards are always prepared for everything, and therefore, it is a waste of space for me to show such a battle in any more detail than I did. If I had spent six pages showing a complex back-and-forth, the same people would still be complaining because they would claim that the wizard should have prepared such-and-such spell—and then I would have wasted six pages of a finite physical book that could have been devoted to the actual story. It's a moving target that I will never be able to hit, so I've long since stopped trying.

Because let's face it: Dorukan is irrelevant. Narratively speaking, he doesn't matter at all. When you start reading that book, you already know that Xykon kills him and takes over his dungeon. There's no tension there. All the tension in that battle revolves around what Redcloak is going to do about his brother, and that's resolved on the page before. Once that's out of the way, the actual death of Dorukan is an extraneous piece of bookkeeping that needs to be dispensed with in order to get on to the next important part—namely, the final conversation between Xykon and Redcloak. That I even spent three-quarters of a page on it is attributed solely to completing Xykon's "arc," bookending the opening scene with the ersatz Professor X by actualizing the character's emergent philosophy. A bunch of fancy countermeasures and tricks by Dorukan would just undermine the impact of what Xykon was saying.

If it helps, think of that page as a montage scene rather than a direct moment-to-moment narrative. I'm sure Dorukan pulled out a spell or two between panels, but since they obviously didn't affect the outcome (because we all know he died before strip #1), I didn't need to show them. It also would have been equally valid for me to just have started page 106 with Xykon holding Dorukan's dead body (which would really have had the wizards-are-always-prepared people howling). Because all you really need to know for the story is, "And then Xykon killed Dorukan." Form follows function, and there's no dramatic function to be had in dwelling on the minutiae of a foregone conclusion.

[Porthos]

If I had spent six pages showing a complex back-and-forth, the same people would still be complaining because they would claim that the wizard should have prepared such-and-such spell—and then I would have wasted six pages of a finite physical book that could have been devoted to the actual story. It's a moving target that I will never be able to hit, so I've long since stopped trying.

And even when you do try, you still get the complaints.

*cough the discussion about the Malack/Durkon fight cough*

The fact of the matter is that there is no possible set of tactics that would ever satisfy the folks who have decided that wizards are always prepared for everything

Sadly I have to agree, having seen that discussion over and over again on this fourm. And it's not even restricted to wizards, unfortunately...

*cough the discussion saying that Malack should have had Word of Recall prepped after he got a bad case of sunburn from Nale *cough*

As I said earlier in the thread, Fun times.

[Rodin]

I'd just like to re-state from earlier in the thread that the scene as written did have a powerful impact as a supposedly crafty wizard got beaten down with a sledgehammer to the face. It sits at #2 in my "Top Xykon moments" list, right behind his speech about the nature of power during the fight with Darth V.

[lio45]

Sadly I have to agree, having seen that discussion over and over again on this fourm.

Yes, having seen that discussion over and over again on this forum over the years tells me that it's likely the way Dorukan lets himself get killed like an Epic amateur leaves to be desired, narratively.

Otherwise, it wouldn't be brought up that often and that regularly by random readers.

Because all you really need to know for the story is, "And then Xykon killed Dorukan." Form follows function...

Sure, but it still has to be plausible.

To take an extreme example, if the story called for Elan to defeat Xykon single-handedly, that "fight" would have to be explained in a satisfying manner. Even if the readers already knew the outcome.

Looking statistically at the recurring complaints on this forum, I'd say Dorukan's death is among the few little flaws (i.e. things that could've been improved) that your entire opus has.

It's no big deal, obviously. It's impossible for a 1000+ page art work by a human being to be absolutely flawless.

[Darth Paul]

Lio: Dorukan's defeat is only "ïmplausible" if you don't believe that Xykon is an overpowering, ass-kicking, nigh-invulnerable, crazy-prepared, supernatural undead horror. See, I believe he is most of those things most of the time, because that's what I took away from SoD. Not the brainiest or wisest, but when you want sheer cunning and badass quotient, turn to Xykon.

Along with everything else, Dorukan underestimated him, pure and simple. He saw him as a "mere" sorceror and said so, if I recall correctly. He paid the price.

Historical example; Custer underestimated Sitting Bull's men at the Little Big Horn and was convinced that they would not stand to fight. Boy, was he ever wrong. That didn't make Custer an amateur, it made him human and capable of making a mistake, for which he and a lot of men paid with their lives.

[Morty]

It's only implausible if you refuse to be satisfied with a combat that does not obey exactly the strictest letter of D&D 3e rules and optimization standards. At which point the offence becomes self-inflicted.

[orrion]

Sure, but it still has to be plausible.

He just finished you that he can't make it plausible to anyone who thinks Batman-Wizarding is the way things should always happen and so he chose not to try.

To take an extreme example, if the story called for Elan to defeat Xykon single-handedly, that "fight" would have to be explained in a satisfying manner. Even if the readers already knew the outcome.

Looking statistically at the recurring complaints on this forum, I'd say Dorukan's death is among the few little flaws (i.e. things that could've been improved) that your entire opus has.

It's no big deal, obviously. It's impossible for a 1000+ page art work by a human being to be absolutely flawless.

Dorukan's death isn't even important to the narrative, except insofar as it has huge implications for Redcloak and shows off one of Xykon's berserk buttons. If Dorukan himself had been the narrative star, then the fight would have been unsatisfying, but he wasn't. He was dead and we already knew he was dead and how he got that way is beside the point.

[Koo Rehtorb]

A bunch of fancy countermeasures and tricks by Dorukan would just undermine the impact of what Xykon was saying.

While I do agree that the whole scene really was more representative than literal, I do have a quibble with this line. Personally I thought that the scene as it is actually undermined Xykon's speech.

It wasn't really a demonstration of raw power beating tactics, because Dorukan didn't really display any particularly exceptional tactics. It was more a demonstration of raw power beating up an ill-prepared old man. Personally I think the speech would have been more poignant if Dorukan traipsed out there with some line about being warded and prepared for every possible attack Xykon could throw at him, and then ate a Superb Dispelling to the face.

However, again, not the biggest deal.

[allenw]

Guys and Gals, you're all (even Rich) looking at this the wrong way.
By doing what he did, when he did it, Dorukan ended up in a private love-shack with Lirian, potentially forever.
Maybe the super-genius Batman-wizard knew what he was doing?

(His apology to Lirian was just a ploy for pity-sex.)

[Emanick]

If it helps, think of that page as a montage scene rather than a direct moment-to-moment narrative. I'm sure Dorukan pulled out a spell or two between panels, but since they obviously didn't affect the outcome (because we all know he died before strip #1), I didn't need to show them.

Thanks for that, Giant. For what it's worth, that helps at least one reader with his suspension of disbelief in that scene.

I've never subscribed to the "wizards are Batman" school of thought by any means, but I always found it difficult to buy just how poor a showing Dorukan put up against Xykon. I haven't participated in this thread up to this point because it wasn't a huge deal to me, but it definitely bothered me whenever I reread that section in Start of Darkness. It makes a lot more sense to me as a montage, though.

So yeah, thanks for that. Your forum posts are not in vain!

[Kish]

While I do agree that the whole scene really was more representative than literal, I do have a quibble with this line. Personally I thought that the scene as it is actually undermined Xykon's speech.

It wasn't really a demonstration of raw power beating tactics, because Dorukan didn't really display any particularly exceptional tactics. It was more a demonstration of raw power beating up an ill-prepared old man. Personally I think the speech would have been more poignant if Dorukan traipsed out there with some line about being warded and prepared for every possible attack Xykon could throw at him, and then ate a Superb Dispelling to the face.

The problem with that, is that it's something a wizard could have done just as well. The point of Xykon's speech is that he won by fighting like a sorcerer, finding one spell his enemy was vulnerable to and casting that one spell, over and over, more times per day than a wizard could have--not simply by being higher level (though he may, or may not, also have been higher level).

[Porthos]

Yes, having seen that discussion over and over again on this forum over the years tells me that it's likely the way Dorukan lets himself get killed like an Epic amateur leaves to be desired, narratively.

Otherwise, it wouldn't be brought up that often and that regularly by random readers.

I was not referring to only the Dorukan fight, but all of the times that any spellcaster loses to an 'inferior'.

Also, with literally 80+ thousand members, even the tiniest nitpick that only matters to a few people is going to be brought up time and time again. Especially if one gives enough time for the subject matter to appear.

"All of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but never all of the people all of the time" is well known for a reason, IMO.

[137beth]

Ok. And Dorukan was a perfectly capable person in numerous things he did before he spent however many decades at his stronghold getting older and not adventuring. He just got owned by Xykon at the time (because Xykon took advantage of his weaknesses).

Again, there's a difference. Dorukan was supposedly a legitimate challenge for Xykon, roughly equal in terms of power with a small possible variance one way or another. Luke was outclassed in terms of ability compared to Vader.

Dorukan was powerful but incompetent. Luke was competent but weak. Different concepts.

But Dorukan did have a weakness! He was extremely weak in one way, and Xykon exploited it. You keep ignoring Dorukan's weakness, and then using that to claim Dorukan shouldn't have lost. You aren't speaking about Dorukan, though, you are speaking of a character like Dorukan but without Dorukan's weakness. No such character exists, or has ever existed, in OOTS.

[Seraph1]

I've got to be honest, I play nothing but wizards in games, and NOTHING wrecks you as bad as instant death (fort) saves, level drain, and attribute drain. You MUST always have an answer for this be it spells, items (soulfire anyone?), contingencies, etc. I would be embarrassed if I played an epic level wizard and got laid low by level drain. His item selection was frankly garbage given that much power, time, and wealth.

Heck, as an epic level wizard, he can craft any number of all day protection spells to ward this kind of thing, and with an army at my gates, you can be dang sure I would always be prepared for the inevitable combat that would ensue.

As far as being prepared for other eventualities that an 9th level sorcerer could throw out, high level dispels, counter spell contingencies/rings, and high saves with luck re-rolls would neuter most other offensive options.

In reality, it is like the giant said, the reason Dorukan died was because he was meant to, if he was being played like an epic D&D Wizard should be played, there is no way Xylon would pose any threat to him.

Frankly, with that much time to plan, Dorukan could cast time stop, several delay offensive spells, teleports, and protection/contingencies, likely ONE ROUND Xylon, OR capture the item with the soul he wanted OR lay waste to large parts of Xylons army/lackies. Heck, if it didn't work, he can port out and try again tomorrow because he is a WIZARD and can prepare himself for ANY fight if he has advance knowledge.

[Kish]

Heck, as an epic level wizard, he can craft any number of all day protection spells to ward this kind of thing,

"It's an inappropriate failing in Dorukan that he didn't invent an epic ImmunityToXykon spell" is a level of goofy this thread hadn't yet seen...

he is a WIZARD

Sigh.

[Morty]

It's amazing enough that people might demand a worse story just for the sake of faithfulness to a barely functional (on a good day) tabletop system.

[Koo Rehtorb]

But Dorukan did have a weakness! He was extremely weak in one way, and Xykon exploited it.

Yes, well, granted. But I don't think "being bad at playing a wizard" is really an appropriate weakness for an epic level wizard. YMMV though.

[Koo Rehtorb]

The problem with that, is that it's something a wizard could have done just as well. The point of Xykon's speech is that he won by fighting like a sorcerer, finding one spell his enemy was vulnerable to and casting that one spell, over and over, more times per day than a wizard could have--not simply by being higher level (though he may, or may not, also have been higher level).

Eh. The way the Energy Drain thing felt to me was that Xykon lucked out in finding the one thing he was vulnerable to. It didn't really say anything about raw power. Blowing all his intricate preparations away with a dispel would have felt more like a display of raw power to me than him essentially just finding a hole in Dorukan's defenses and exploiting it.

That's really more of an opinion though I guess.

[Kish]

It didn't really say anything about raw power. Blowing all his intricate preparations away with a dispel would have felt more like a display of raw power to me than him essentially just finding a hole in Dorukan's defenses and exploiting it.

So, your counterargument is, "You're right"?

Or have you confused Xykon's speech to Dorukan with his speech to Vaarsuvius?

[BroomGuys]

I think having a bit of your experience ruined by your knowledge of D&D mechanics is a bit like being bored by the climax of a movie that hinges on stopping a nuclear bomb because you're a nuclear physicist, or like watching House if you're a medical professional and being aware of exactly how many times he should lose his medical license per episode. Realism can hurt these kinds of stories by taking away dramatic opportunities, and not all of the audience will be particularly well-versed in the ways in which you're taking artistic license, and as Rich mentioned, devoting time to satisfying realism will just seem to get bogged down in superfluous minutiae to the majority of the audience.

I make this point as someone whose familiarity of D&D rules pretty much only comes from reading OotS. For me, when I read the scene in which Xykon kills Dorukan, I was pretty shocked to see Xykon whoop him like that (I think I even recall thinking "whoa, can he DO that?") but because I wasn't aware of all the hypothetical countermeasures that could've been available to Dorukan, my shock and surprise didn't translate to losing my suspension of disbelief (if it would have anyway). It felt almost unfair that Xykon managed to win, but that added to the general mood of desolation that pervades the conclusion to SoD. I dunno the demographic statistics of OotS's readership, but I'd be surprised if my reaction to that scene was an uncommon one.

[theNater]

I've got to be honest, I play nothing but wizards in games, and NOTHING wrecks you as bad as instant death (fort) saves, level drain, and attribute drain. You MUST always have an answer for this be it spells, items (soulfire anyone?), contingencies, etc. I would be embarrassed if I played an epic level wizard and got laid low by level drain.

How many wizards did you go through before you figured this out? How many wizards has Dorukan been?

In reality, it is like the giant said, the reason Dorukan died was because he was meant to, if he was being played like an epic D&D Wizard should be played, there is no way Xylon would pose any threat to him.

But I don't think "being bad at playing a wizard" is really an appropriate weakness for an epic level wizard.

Mechanically optimal is not the only way to play a wizard, nor is it inherently better than other ways.

[BlackDragonKing]

I sort of assumed Dorukan's downfall was that Xykon managed to force the fight on his terms, primarily. Had Xykon had to go in there and get him, past all those defenses he'd spent years building up against any possible attack, Dorukan probably would have kicked Xykon's butt, but the circumstances under which they finally did battle forced Dorukan to abandon his tactical advantage and run right into a face-full of wrong context magic.

I imagine Dorukan never fought a sorcerer that particularly challenged him in his adventuring life. There probably were some during the time he was with the order of the scribble, but most of them would either be minions, and have been lower-level than himself where the disparity between a wizard and a sorcerer is more pronounced, or the odd boss sorcerer, who in most cases is heavily outnumbered by the party and can't demonstrate what he's fully capable of. Sorcerers don't appear to be particularly common in OotS compared to Wizards anyhow, so it's likely a lot of Dorukan's magical battles were against fellow wizards. On that basis, I think Dorukan didn't just shoot in there without a plan, but in his haste he overlooked the gaping flaw in his plan, that he couldn't expect his opponent to fight like a "normal" magic user would.

Under this notion, his strategy seems pretty clear to me. Dorukan planned to open up a Gate and let a small army run interference while he buffed up as he'd likely been ready to do every day for the months Xykon was besieging the dungeon. In all likelihood, Dorukan's past experience with fighting other mages was sophisticated combo moves, often relying on a particular type of spell doing most of the work and then finishing the job with lesser ones. He probably spent the turns he was buffing off-screen to set up an incredibly formidable set of defenses, which would let him shrug off that kind of fighting style and pound his enemy into the dirt with his remaining spells. He likely considered the risk of Xykon having something that could get through his defenses a small, acceptable one; with the right array of defensive spells and other such buffs in place, it might be reasonable to assume Dorukan didn't foresee anything getting through but a corner-case spell a fellow wizard would only prepare once for that day "just in case". Even getting hit with one energy drain or something else he wasn't prepared for, he probably felt confident he could power through and triumph.

But as is established, Xykon is a sorcerer. He didn't have to plan out which spells he could cast that day, he just needed to find one spell Dorukan had failed to shield himself from and use that same spell over and over and over and over and over until he won.

Imagine you're a sword-fighter in a variation of fencing where you can only make a certain number of moves in your bouts for the day, and you must tell the judge ahead of time which ones you picked, and execute them in whatever order and combination you please. You can't cover every defense against every kind of attack with your limited number of movements, but you can prepare a generalized array of defenses, safe in the knowledge only a great fool would commit heavily to a single kind of attack you hadn't prepared for with no way of knowing your defenses.

Then one day you have to outline your prepared moves to the judge in a great hurry, before rushing out to the arena to find out nobody ever told your opponent the rules but you still have to fight the proper way.