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    Exclamation [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Howdy friends! Looks like the Advanced Class Guide is out, and I've been thumbing through my copy all night. So let's bump our heads together and see what new and awesome things we can come up with!

    I've been playing a Oracle-leaning Oradin as of late, and it seems that there's a single feat which makes my two-level dip into Paladin somewhat redundant: Divine Protection, which gives +CHA to all saving throws. It's basically Divine Grace for the rest of us.


    Anyone else seeing any face-wrecking combos?

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    I heard there was a magus arcana that allowed you to take Swashbuckler deeds, replacing Arcane Pool for Panache, including the 'passive as long as you have 1 point remaining' type. Such ones include one that gets you your level as precision damage with piercing weapons (also, scimitar with one feat or slashing weapons with another feat), another which gave you Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    I am salivating over the Investigator (which was always my favorite concept) - particularly the iconic investigator, Quinn, and his excellent backstory. (Defense attorney powers, activate!)

    I'm also highly interested in the archetypes. I'm going to help update Cieryn's excellent combo handbook in a little while here.
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Heard there are 2 new feats for Animal Companions, one that gives it Shaman abilities (including fast healing and dr5/adam) and another that's an Evolve Familiar counterpart.

    Wonder if you can give any companion pounce. Evolve Familiar explicitly says your familiar doesn't need the flight evolution for wing buffet, just have wings, so unless the wording has changed you should be able to on any quadruped. Should fix how cats are clearly better than anything other non-flying choice.

    Should be interesting to play an animal companion focused character now, even without animal ally cheese.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2014-08-14 at 10:11 AM.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Heard there are 2 new feats for Animal Companions, one that gives it Shaman abilities (including fast healing and dr5/adam) and another that's an Evolve Familiar counterpart.

    Wonder if you can give any companion pounce. Evolve Familiar explicitly says your familiar doesn't need the flight evolution for wing buffet, just have wings, so unless the wording has changed you should be able to on any quadruped. Should fix how cats are clearly better than anything other non-flying choice.

    Should be interesting to play an animal companion focused character now, even without animal ally cheese.
    My Samurai/Mammoth Rider wants that first one.
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    I saw an archetype that gave wizards exploits! Talk about silly redundancy! Sadly most archetypes amount to let's give this existing class one of these new mechanics. Some work and might be cool, but it gets pretty boring reading trough archetypes after a while. That also sums up my general feelings, it's okay and fun, but lacks a good wow factor.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    I heard there was a magus arcana that allowed you to take Swashbuckler deeds, replacing Arcane Pool for Panache, including the 'passive as long as you have 1 point remaining' type. Such ones include one that gets you your level as precision damage with piercing weapons (also, scimitar with one feat or slashing weapons with another feat), another which gave you Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.
    So Swashbucklers still have to pay a Not Errol Flynn Feat Tax if they want to use non-piercing weapons? Is there at least an archetype that includes the feat?

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    There's some nice feats in here. Twist Away lets you use Reflex in place of Fort as an immediate action. Skilled Rager lets you use a skill while raging you normally could not use. Recovered Rage lets you get back rage rounds by killing foes. Raging Absorption lets you eat spells to fuel your bloodrage. Pack Flanking lets you be considered flanking with your animal companion even if your companion is adjacent to you or sharing your square. Lunging Spell Touch lets you deliver touch spells 5 feet away etc.
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Has the Arcanist been buffed yet again?

    Because to be fair, it's the only class in that book I'm a bit hyped about, and I'd really rather it not be that gamebreaking.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Not sure what can be done with it but Arcanist 19/sorcerer 1 giving up one level of Arcanist casting and an exploit for a full sorcerer bloodline is kinda cool.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    There's some nice feats in here
    Anything Bard (or Bardic Performance, because at least 3 other classes can get it) specific? Paizo's previous bard feats have been so poor as to be useless or so good as to be mandatory.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by magotter View Post
    I've been playing a Oracle-leaning Oradin as of late, and it seems that there's a single feat which makes my two-level dip into Paladin somewhat redundant: Divine Protection, which gives +CHA to all saving throws. It's basically Divine Grace for the rest of us.
    o.0

    What are the prereqs? That would have been great for the bard I was playing... His fort save could have used a boost. Maybe the SoD wouldn't have killed him had he had this!
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asteron View Post
    o.0

    What are the prereqs? That would have been great for the bard I was playing... His fort save could have used a boost. Maybe the SoD wouldn't have killed him had he had this!
    Divine Protection
    Your deity protects you against deadly attacks.

    Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks,
    ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells; blessings†, domains,
    or mystery class feature.

    Benefit: You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma
    modifier on all saving throws. If your Charisma modifier
    is already applied as a bonus on all saving throw (such as
    from the divine grace class feature), you instead gain a +1
    bonus on all saving throws.
    So no to bards, or sorcs, or any spontaneous arcane caster.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Hunter is really, really strong now. Their animal companion can learn the combat tricks from the Skirmisher archetype as its normal handle animal tricks (!!!), and she gets both the Ranger and Druid spell list, learning a spell in whatever the lowest level either class gains it. By level 3 you can be getting +6 to hit when flanking with your animal companion (Outflank and your AC using aiding attack from the Skirmisher) while dropping Lead Blades on your primary weapon and maybe also sharing a damage boosting feat like Precise Strike.
    I think he's kind of the unexpected power-house from the ACG, with a lot of strong potential.

    Skald is pretty much what I expected, potent but a little boring.

    I was hoping the White Mage Arcanist archetype would be a little bit more than it turned out to be, but it basically just trades a couple exploits to get a very expensive version of the cleric's spontaneous casting + breath of life.

    For all the hype, Slayer just felt a little boring. Between him and the Investigator I probably won't ever need to play a Rogue, but I was already playing Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, and Rangers instead of Rogues anyways.

    Shaman may be my favorite after the Hunter. Lot of good stuff there.

    I'm not feeling super impressed by Warpriest Blessings, but maybe I'm missing something. The class in general is solid.

    Big fan of the Brawler being able to just straight up knock people out starting at level 4. That's cool.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    So no to bards, or sorcs, or any spontaneous arcane caster.
    I had wondered. The name made seem like it would have those prereqs... I guess Sonny was fated to die!
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    So, oracles no longer get a level five feat, just divine protection as a class feature. And the rest are wisdom based, so it doesn't help them much. I guess you could dip for the domain/mystery/blessing and meet the spell requirement with a racial sla.
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssalarn View Post
    I was hoping the White Mage Arcanist archetype would be a little bit more than it turned out to be, but it basically just trades a couple exploits to get a very expensive version of the cleric's spontaneous casting + breath of life.
    That's actually good to hear: It's Paizo's normal modus operandi to make a huge deal out of arcane casters being able to cast Cure Light Wounds, but the Arcanist seems to be the new Mary Sue class so I was genuinely worried they'd do something like a "Trade one exploit to get all divine spells forever!" kinda deal.

    I'm not feeling super impressed by Warpriest Blessings, but maybe I'm missing something. The class in general is solid.
    In the playtest the warpriest had so much competing for their swift action every round (and blessings were generally so weak) that none of the blessings would ever really come into play in-game.

    I actually took the time to rewrite all the Warpriest Blessings while the playtest was going on; Can't say I'm surprised none of the devs took my advice.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by stack View Post
    I guess you could dip for the domain/mystery/blessing and meet the spell requirement with a racial sla.
    Or dip 1 level of Oracle and take the Wood mystery's Bend the Grain revelation to gain a 2nd level Divine sla.
    Last edited by Oazard; 2014-08-14 at 02:01 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    A lot of the archetypes for the old classes are kind of bland. Most of them are just ways to tack ACG features on an old class. Get aspects on a Druid or a super AnC on a ranger or inspiration on an alchemist and so on.

    There's a lot of other minor annoyances too. The investigator archetype that gains firearms trades class features for deeds but doesn't gain grit.

    The slayer felt like it didn't get enough effort put into it. It gets three or four new slayer talents (compare to twenty or so investigator talents). Its study target feature is basically just studied combat again and its quarry feature is basically the sand feature a second time.

    Still a fun book overall.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    I really like Orator. I doubt a lot of people will take it since it's basically 2 feats to let an intelligence based character play party face, but I think it's going to end up in some of my builds anyway.

    I feel like an imbecile not realizing that Pummeling Style was a style feat. Derp.

    The fortuitous weapon ability looks promising (second attack of opportunity at -5 when you hit a target with an attack of opportunity).

    Even though I have the pdf, I'm still eager to see it on d20pfsrd since I find that a lot easier to navigate, especially when cross-referencing would be useful.
    Last edited by jaydubs; 2014-08-14 at 02:07 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    So some initial thoughts:

    Jesus @#$*ing Christ, the Arcanist looks like the most broken-arse monster of a class that has ever crawled out of Game Balance's nightmares. This thing is going to cause some frigging arguments at my table unless I'm hugely overestimating its power relative to other classes. Not looking forward to that.

    The Brawler is pretty damn cool. I was initially thinking it wasn't going to be worth much on account of parent class original sin, but...it has one of the crappiest capstone abilities in the game besides Monk of the Healing Hand, but the rest of it's good stuff. Martial Flexibility's the real selling point there, and I like that it and the Swash get to dodge around needing to be smart enough to cast a frigging Fireball just to use half the combat maneuvers without getting punched in the face. Definitely going to roll one of these. I'm thinking Pummeling Style giving it a Clustered Shot Pounce around level 8 will make it surprisingly lethal, even if it means I gotta give up Dragon Style. I like that gauntlets, brass knuckles, and other Close weapons are actually pretty good on this thing, too. Brawling Armor property gives a real nice cheap +2 to unarmed strikes and grappling, and the new Brawling WEAPON property on a gauntlet should allow me to buff CMB pretty decently. This is my new pick for the thinking man's full BAB class.

    Swashbucklers are cool as hell, I just really really really hope it's not a class that's all flash and no substance in gameplay. Several of its decisions in design are baffling to me, however; two bad saves is a deep @#$*ing grave to dig yourself out of for a front liner, and it feels like the class has too many swift/immediate actions competing with its ability to buff those bad saves. I was really putting my bets on an alleged feat that would let you sub in your reflex save on a fort or will, but the actual feat, Twist Away, isn't much use to the swashbuckler, so I'm really thinking I've got no choice but to blow a LOT of wbl on buffing saves or take a 1-level dip into cleric to snag Divine Protection and get the Divine Grace I feel the class deserves.

    Investigators tickle my fancy as the new skill master in this game while being more handy to have around than your average rogue. The Mastermind Archetype seems like a great BBEG, too, because he can block out a ton of the spy, scry, and fry strategies PCs attempt against their enemies without expending any resources at all. Great for baddies in social campaigns.

    Shamans seem really cool, but I've been focused on their spirits and such rather than the spell list. They are probably the most MAD spell caster in the game, but you know? I'm OK with that. That's how it should bloody be for 9th-level casters.

    Eldritch Scion Magus is a great archetype. It's an unprecedented paradigm shift, but I wanted a sorcerous-type spontaneous magus, and Paizo has obligingly made my favorite magical swordsman get in touch with the CHA side!
    Last edited by BlackDragonKing; 2014-08-14 at 02:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    What's it do exactly? You could already stick Student of Philosophy on an int based character for just a trait.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragonKing View Post
    Jesus @#$*ing Christ, the Arcanist looks like the most broken-arse monster of a class that has ever crawled out of Game Balance's nightmares.
    Got some good news for you. The baseline wizard can (through an archetype) trade his spell school for Arcanist exploits/arcane pool. So it can't be the most broken thing ever when the wizard can pick up all its class features without the broken spell progression or limited spells prepared.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    So, first of all: the book is gorgeous. I've only bought 3rd party pdfs the last few months, so seeing a book this well done with such a low price tag was very nice.
    I've spotted a few editing mistakes (Investigators study their targets as a move action, but their Quick Study talent refers to standard actions), but nothing major.

    I'm wondering what happens when an Arcanist takes Eldritch Heritage and the bloodline exploit. As per RAW, I think they would have a virtual sorcerer level of ECL-2, but would add their arcanist level to that - and if you're a single classed Arcanist, that is going to end up with a virtual sorcerer level higher than your character level (well, not "end up" - you surpass a Sorcerer at level 5). You would still need to spend feats to unlock higher level abilities, though. It's nothing gamebreaking, but I expect errata.

    I liked the same classes I liked in the ACG, and I'm liking the archetypes even more. Snakebite Striker sounds very fun. I like Daring Champion specially because it allows an unmounted Cavalier. I also like the idea of Dares - it's not very powerful, but it's thematically appropriate. A Gunslinger that doesn't use guns is weird, but I understand why they did it. I'm a bit disappointed with the Feral Hunter - I expected something more along the lines of Cernd from Baldur's Gate 2. Steel Hound and Sleuth both appeal to me far more than standard Inquisitor, since it feels more thematically apropriate. Arcane Deed is overpowered. I don't like the Kata Master - there is no connection between kata and panache and having both a ki pool and a panache pool sounds awful. Can't see why Wildcat is a Monk archetype instead of a Brawler archetype. I like all of the Slayer archetypes. In fact, I like all things Slayer. Mysterous Stranger is less than I expected, but still cool. Not sure why Picaroon gets abilities that only work with two-weapon fighting but keeps Precise Strike.

    Gotta hit the bar now, but I still have to check the feats. All in all, 10 dollars well spent.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    What's it do exactly? You could already stick Student of Philosophy on an int based character for just a trait.
    It lets you use linguistics instead of diplomacy/bluff/intimidate to change attitudes or make people do what you want.

    I'm not saying it's optimal, since it's usually better just to let someone else handle it. I'll probably end up using it in my builds nonetheless because:
    1) There are so many great traits I often end up taking a drawback and the additional traits feat and still running out.
    2) Student of philosophy doesn't make bluff/diplomacy into class skills, so you need two more traits if you want those to be high. And it doesn't cover intimidate. So if you actually are aiming for similar coverage with traits, you end up spending 2 feats worth of them, plus more skill points, and you wouldn't get skill focus or end up speaking every language ever. (Skill focus in linguistics is the prerequisite, so it's like getting skill focus in 4 skills.)
    Last edited by jaydubs; 2014-08-14 at 02:59 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Got some good news for you. The baseline wizard can (through an archetype) trade his spell school for Arcanist exploits/arcane pool. So it can't be the most broken thing ever when the wizard can pick up all its class features without the broken spell progression or limited spells prepared.
    A well prepared wizard might still have slight edge at certain levels thanks to earlier access to high level spells, but an Arcanist is a wizard with an easy button. You get to be 95% of the awesome with 5% of the preparation. Especially if the arcanist has quick study. At that point it's virtually a sorcerer with access to the entire class spell list (yeah, a wizard with the archetype can do it, too, but he only gets one instance of the spell instead of 4+).

    Eldritch Scion Magus is a great archetype. It's an unprecedented paradigm shift, but I wanted a sorcerous-type spontaneous magus, and Paizo has obligingly made my favorite magical swordsman get in touch with the CHA side!
    It's the archetype we've been waiting for since the Magus was created. I think the concept always made more sense as a fighter-sorcerer mix than as prepared caster. Too bad they nerfed spell combat in the process (not badly enough to make it unusable, but enough to make it annoying).

    There's a lot of other minor annoyances too. The investigator archetype that gains firearms trades class features for deeds but doesn't gain grit.
    The Amateur Gunslinger feat grants a grit pool, albeit a gimped one in that doesn't replenish past 1 with rest.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaakon View Post
    A well prepared wizard might still have slight edge at certain levels thanks to earlier access to high level spells, but an Arcanist is a wizard with an easy button. You get to be 95% of the awesome with 5% of the preparation. Especially if the arcanist has quick study.
    My point was that thanks to Exploiter Wizard, the Wizard can pick up gems like quick study too.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    And my point was that the exploits are nice, but the arcanist would be ridiculously broken even if its only class feature was the casting mechanic. It's nearly as good as wizard and much, much easier to play up to its potential.

    Also, that Quick Learner is more effective with the archanist mechanic than Vancian casting, since re-memorizing a spell slot can result in multiple castings.

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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    I have to say, I'm looking forward to a chance to play a Brawler. They seem like a martial class that is fun and useful and fits a favourite character of mine that I've been itching to play for a while.
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    Default Re: [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaakon View Post
    And my point was that the exploits are nice, but the arcanist would be ridiculously broken even if its only class feature was the casting mechanic. It's nearly as good as wizard and much, much easier to play up to its potential.

    Also, that Quick Learner is more effective with the archanist mechanic than Vancian casting, since re-memorizing a spell slot can result in multiple castings.
    I'm gonna make the same suggestion I made during the playtest:

    1. Reduce spells prepared per day to something like the spirit shaman progression. (It sounds like they've already done this with the Eldritch Font archetype but I'd have to see the book myself to judge.)

    2. Change the spellbook to something else (even if it's mechanically identical) just to give an arcanist some flavor distinction from the wizard. My suggestion is/was to say that an arcanist is surrounded by a "cloak" of whirling spell energy that she "pulls" her daily spells from, in place of a spellbook. As the arcanist increases in level and learns more spells, the spellcloak grows in visual intensity: Starting as a barely visible aura and ending as a whirl of rainbow colors that outshines the sun, unless the arcanist takes measures to hide it.

    3. Take the exploits and place them in thematically coherent packages, and only allow each arcanist access to one package. Separate the really good exploits (after some nerfs to make them more reasonable) like MyLittleIncantatrix and UncannyMemoryLoss into different package sets.

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