[PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

[Snowbluff]

Pick a spell that's on your list, it's not the end of the world. This nerf was absolutely needed.

Blandification! It's a 3 feat chain for 2 spells you wouldn't otherwise know. How isn't that fair?

If "worse off" still lands me in T2, I'll take two with a side of fries, thanks.

Power != good game design. Oracle was a misstep.

This gives you a very situational spell at a moment's notice, and the cleric list is chock-full of those. How often do you need to remove a curse, or remove blindness/paralysis, or restore someone to flesh - not often enough to need it as a spell known, I'll bet, but when you do need it I bet you'll be very glad to have it. Especially since you don't have to trek back to Magic Mart to do it.

I'll roll a sorcerer and solve the problem before it happens, or I'll roll a cleric and save myself the action, race choice, and complaints.

Right, so those two classes (and the Brawler, which is their hybrid) are the kings of style feats. That's fine! Working as intended!

Obviously the intent is to make the game worse by digging more holes in the graves of failed game designs.

People should be getting styles that function more readily with more weapons with less investment in order to improve mundane characters in terms of variety and functionality.

I disagree. Improved Unarmed Strike is a desirable feat for several characters that don't get it as a bonus feat (specially good for natural attack builds that want to keep iteratives). You can't get much use out of the maneuvers if you provoke every time you attack anyway. Unless your point is that unarmed strikes should never provoke... no, wait, I disagree with that as well.
I mean, I understand where you're coming from with feat taxes, but I don't think it applies here. IUS is not like Combat Expertise, which you only ever take because it's a prerequisite for something else - it's the feat you take when you want to fight unarmed and it makes you better at fighting unarmed. Not requiring IUS for a Style feat would make no sense, IMHO.

Thanks for the response, but that's generally wrong. Natural attack build HATE iterative attacks in PF. Their weapons loses their primary status, which costs considerable damage per hit and gives a -5 attack penalty. Almost all of them (and 100% of the good ones) have 3/4 BAB or worse, so iteratives are less of a concern and penalties tend to hurt more. Of course, there are times that you would want to pick it up for a cheap extra attack, but the math generally doesn't support it in PF.

Unarmed Attack should always provoke, and characters with that try should lose limbs. That's just my opinion of the concept for the most part. That has nothing to do with THIS. I just don't like monks in the first place. This is a feat problem, not a monk.

Why does it have to be unarmed? Where are the other style options that don't require you to train at a monastery to use? I like halberd styles and longsword fencing, for example. Where do I find the feat for a mordhau, or to jab the guy over and over with the blunt end of my polearm?

[squiggit]

Power != good game design. Oracle was a misstep.

I'm not seeing it. Oracle is one of the cooler classes (design wise) in pathfinder's repertoire and easily one of the best fixes around to an inelegant 3.5 class.

[Snowbluff]

I'm not seeing it. Oracle is one of the cooler classes (design wise) in pathfinder's repertoire and easily one of the best fixes around to an inelegant 3.5 class.

What? In the end it's just another caster that does nothing to stand out from the changes made to the other classes. In terms of the classes it's easily Summoner (adds custom monster) > Alchemist (preferring vivisectionist, actually building around faulty rogue design) > Magus (these guys blend casting+fighting, crits are crazy)> Witch (wizard but with the new wizard class features are now hexes) >= Oracle (divine sorc, redundant). Compared to the other PF original classes it really falls short. Probably the best part to give it credit is that it (for the most part) gets to choose in what order it gets it class features, but most of them are locked by level anyway.

[Psyren]

Blandification! It's a 3 feat chain for 2 spells you wouldn't otherwise know. How isn't that fair?

You can still do that - they just have to be from your list now. There's plenty of goodies there. Useful without being broken.

Anyway, just use Expanded Arcana instead and now it's one feat (or none!) for that situational spell you need. Free/low-cost Limited Wish, available to oracles/bards and at a much lower level, is worth it.

Obviously the intent is to make the game worse by digging more holes in the graves of failed game designs.

Fine, fine, rage if you must but plenty of us are happy with this change. *shrug*

I'm not seeing it. Oracle is one of the cooler classes (design wise) in pathfinder's repertoire and easily one of the best fixes around to an inelegant 3.5 class.

Agreed 100%.

[Snowbluff]

Fine, fine, rage if you must but plenty of us are happy with this change. *shrug*

Can do. By that I mean I'm done for today. PF has worn me out and I haven't even played it today.

I have no clue about any change, though. I thought my complaint in the quote text was more of a status quo problem.

[Psyren]

By change I meant "I and many others are happy that Tier 0 Oracle got nerfed all the way back down to the cloying depths of utter uselessness that is Tier 2."

[Snowbluff]

A boring T2!

But that's way off topic. The style feats are the relevant complaint. *nods head*

[PsyBomb]

Thanks for putting the summaries up, Psyren. I know my next character will probably be a MoMF, once those make it onto the SRD

[Beowulf DW]

I'm personally thrilled with the Slayer and Bloodrager, and content with the Warpriest. Those were the three I was most interested in.

I'm certainly interested in how the Arcanist would interact with Eldritch Knight, especially in the case of the Blade Adept. Any ideas? Would it gain spells from EK like a spontaneous caster, or would you be left high and dry like a prepared caster?

[Snowbluff]

Probably high and dry.

[9mm]

So funny thing about pummeling style, the only reference to it being limited to unarmed strikes is in the fluff.

Giggity.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So has anybody started looking at the spells yet? There are some interesting ones added, thematically at at least. I had moment where I had to laugh with my evil GM cackle after reading Curse of Burning Sleep! Details in the spoiler tag:

Spoiler: Curse of Burning Sleep

Show

Saving Throw Will negates (see text); Spell Resistance yes
You place a curse upon the target that triggers 1 hour after
the next time it falls asleep. When the curse is triggered,
the creature bursts into flame, taking 1d6 points of fire
damage per 2 caster levels (maximum 8d6). Furthermore, it
catches on fire, taking 2d6 points of fire damage per round
at the end of its turn each round until the creature dies
(Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 444). If the target is still
asleep, the fire damage from this spell wakes it.

That spell could wind up killing players. I wonder if we could combo it with Explosive Runes somehow...

[zimmerwald1915]

Probably high and dry.

Aye, an arcanist has a spellbook, not spells known. Eldritch knight only advances spells known.

[Snowbluff]

So funny thing about pummeling style, the only reference to it being limited to unarmed strikes is in the fluff.

Giggity.

... remember improved trip? Would have been nice. Just sayin'.

Aye, an arcanist has a spellbook, not spells known. Eldritch knight only advances spells known.

Mhm. I think that means they get more unique spells per day, though. Either way, the ruling is a huge pain.

[AttilaTheGeek]

With all the different types of gishes, who's the strongest in a fight? Could a straight Magus beat up a Bloodrager? What about a Blade Adept Arcanist / Eldritch Knight? Or a Skald? How do Sorcadin / Eldritch Knights, Dragon Disciples, and traditional Wizard / Fighter / Eldritch Knights compare to the new gishes?

Has the arcanist obsoleted the sorcerer? At any level, an Arcanist X can cast just as many different spells as a Sorcerer of the same level, but can change them every day.

As an aside, I just came up with a crazy build idea that takes Arcane Bloodrager 16, learns how to cast Dimension Door, then dips Fighter 2. Using their 17th-level feat and the two bonus from Fighter 2, the character can get Dimensional Dervish at level 18 while still having +18 BAB. That's pretty cool, I think.

[Snowbluff]

I don't know how a Bloodrager is supposed to stand up to magus.

[squiggit]

People on the Paizo forums seem to think Bloodrager is the most powerful class Paizo has ever released, but I have absolutely on idea why.

[Snowbluff]

People on the Paizo forums seem to think Bloodrager is the most powerful class Paizo has ever released, but I have absolutely on idea why.

... Please tell me you are joking. Care to elaborate?

[Fenryr]

Love the idea of the Brawler and the floating feats. Same for the Archetype of Fighter with floating feats. Hooray!

Lots of new stuff in this book. Gonna take a while to read everything twice.

[AttilaTheGeek]

People on the Paizo forums seem to think Bloodrager is the most powerful class Paizo has ever released, but I have absolutely on idea why.

A Steelblood Metamagic Rager Bloodrager has full BAB and heavy armor training and can cast a Quickened or Maximized spell every* round. That's pretty scary, but that's not even close to a Magus with both metamagic reducers, who can do things like make a full attack, cast Maximized Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp, attack again, cast Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp, and attack again, all in the same round. The difference there is that that magus needs hard-to-find metamagic-reducing traits to pull off that kind of power, while the bloodrager comes fairly close with just a couple archetypes.

*Each Quickened spell costs 8 rounds of rage and each Maximized spell costs 6, and they have (4+ CON mod + 2*level) to spend, so at high levels they have enough to last a long while.

Personally, I'd call the most powerful class they've ever released the Arcanist, in terms of "how many problems can a member of this class answer", or a high-op magus in terms of just raw numbers.

Edit to add:

Love the idea of the Brawler and the floating feats. Same for the Archetype of Fighter with floating feats. Hooray!

Lots of new stuff in this book. Gonna take a while to read everything twice.

Oh, I hadn't noticed that. So did Paizo finally take a hint from Grod the Giant and base their fighter fix around floating feats? Because I'll never play a straight Fighter without this archetype ever again.

[Vhaidara]

btw, Atilla, what do you think of the Primal Companion Hunter?

[AttilaTheGeek]

btw, Atilla, what do you think of the Primal Companion Hunter?

I love it Overall, I was disappointed with the strength of the Hunter's Animal Foci, especially because they're a primary class feature. Not only are evolutions more fun and more adaptable, but they also turn a very weak class feature into a very strong one. Primal Companion is like that floating-feat Fighter archetype in that I consider it part of the base class and would have to have a good reason for building a character of that class without that archetype.

Edit to add: Oh, and Eldritch Scion for Magi. I just like spontaneous casting better.

[Beowulf DW]

... Please tell me you are joking. Care to elaborate?

It's the Paizo forums. All they ever seem to think about is numbers. Not many of them spend time thinking about how things can be solved without HP reduction/hitting things.

[animewatcha]

How can bloodrager use rounds of rage to reduce metamagic? Also, it can only cast up to 4th. A Sorcercor gets time stop. How is bloodrager the most powerful class ever?

[Vhaidara]

I love it Overall, I was disappointed with the strength of the Hunter's Animal Foci, especially because they're a primary class feature. Not only are evolutions more fun and more adaptable, but they also turn a very weak class feature into a very strong one. Primal Companion is like that floating-feat Fighter archetype in that I consider it part of the base class and would have to have a good reason for building a character of that class without that archetype.

Edit to add: Oh, and Eldritch Scion for Magi. I just like spontaneous casting better.

Eh, I for one enjoy them all. I just don't even want to know what they were smoking when they made the Arcanist.
"Hey, let's take a wizard and give them the best part of the sorcerer!"
But aside from that, I've liked everything I've seen.

Oh, and also, make sure you check out the Evolved Companion feat. Which has no limit on times you can take it.

[Zanos]

Eh, I'm still convinced that a Human FC Sorcerer is a better day to day character than an Arcanist, especially since PF made Knowstones more accessible(Pages of spell knowledge.)

[Fenryr]

Oh, I hadn't noticed that. So did Paizo finally take a hint from Grod the Giant and base their fighter fix around floating feats? Because I'll never play a straight Fighter without this archetype ever again.

Not EVERY feat but the Fighter may expend a Move Action to gain a combat feat the doesn't posses. One at level 5, two at level 9, three at level 14, and any number of combats feats at level 20. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The Fighter must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. Usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his fighter level.

[Vhaidara]

Eh, I'm still convinced that a Human FC Sorcerer is a better day to day character than an Arcanist, especially since PF made Knowstones more accessible(Pages of spell knowledge.)

Thing is, Arcanists can still use that, and I think Int is a much better casting stat than Cha, since it gives you skill points and Knowledges.

[AttilaTheGeek]

How can bloodrager use rounds of rage to reduce metamagic? Also, it can only cast up to 4th. A Sorcercor gets time stop. How is bloodrager the most powerful class ever?

From the Metamagic Rager archetype:

Meta-Rage (Su): At 5th level, a metamagic rager can sacrifice additional rounds of bloodrage to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a bloodrager spell. This costs a number of rounds of bloodrage equal to twice what the spell’s adjusted level would normally be with the metamagic feat applied (minimum 2 rounds). The metamagic rager does not have to be bloodraging to use this ability. The metamagic effect is applied without increasing the level of the spell slot expended, though the casting time is increased as normal. The metamagic rager can apply only one metamagic feat he knows in this manner with each casting.

It's the Paizo forums. All they ever seem to think about is numbers. Not many of them spend time thinking about how things can be solved without HP reduction/hitting things.

It does admittedly have some pretty big numbers, but numbers are rarely everything and other classes have bigger numbers anyway.

[animewatcha]

Oh, I hadn't noticed that. So did Paizo finally take a hint from Grod the Giant and base their fighter fix around floating feats? Because I'll never play a straight Fighter without this archetype ever again.

Replaces weapon training and mastery.