Why do we still have warriors?

[AMFV]

Mostly true, but the 3.5 comparison makes the thing fall apart even more... as every point you make about the Fighter applies in the exact same fashion as the Wizard. Nothing forces the Wizard to do anything greater in their downtime than the Fighter does. So the whole argument about the fighter relaxing while the wizard slaves over a dusty tome is nonsense.

Hardly, if a DM requires them to research their own spells, then they may wind up having to spend weeks doing that. Certainly the fluff is that they do. The problem is that this is an argument about fluff making any argument stemming from crunch while not completely irrelevant, at least mostly irrelevant.

Verisimilitude is certainly important, but "wizards are supposed to be stronger than everyone else because studying is hard" has nothing to do with verisimilitude

Which was NEVER my point, or something I said, or even remotely similar to anything I said. I said Wizards tend to be people who don't mind sitting in dusty towers studying. I bet you that most Wizards would voluntarily spend their down time doing exactly that. While the fighter is somebody who likes taking time to relax and then doing a really tough few weeks of pre-adventure training to get back into fighting trim.

Sure, but that's a two way street. Which makes it a moot point.

It absolutely isn't a moot point. Recall the original question is "Why are there fighters when there are Wizards", the answer because some people find fulfillment in soldiering while others find it in study, is an absolutely and totally valid answer to that question. Both in real life and in the context of a D&D world. I think you've read something in my statements that I didn't actually say. I wasn't saying that one was inherently harder or easier, rather I was trying to illuminate the things that would make Soldiering easier to somebody who wanted that. And using my own personal experience as a cross-reference point for that, since it is relevant, since I've had those exact same choices put in front of me. Academia or slogging through swamps in the Carolinas, if I had it all to over again, I'd still make the same exact choice. A garrison post in Ft. Meade or Hawaii (I could have went to Hawaii) or deploying to a dangerous combat zone, again I'd still make the same choice I made then. So to assume that a fantasy character inherently wouldn't make that same choice is to me ridiculous.

He spends a day learning his new spell... and only if he wants to (since he gets some spells for free and automatically). So a relatively minor expenditure of time and one that's still entirely optional. I'm not sure where this idea that it's some all consuming work.

Well a wizard who only uses his spells that he obtains while leveling is going to be in general a ****ty wizard, I mean a really ****ty wizard unless they build for that purpose. Furthermore in AD&D that isn't even true, they get no spells for free. In OD&D that isn't true. In Pathinder that isn't true if they've prestiged at all.

Even in 3.5 they are probably not going to universally have access to all the spells they want. And that involves slogging away to construct the spells they want themselves, which takes weeks not days. And it isn't unreasonable to require a wizard to do that.

Item creation isn't really a unique or mandatory feature of the wizard, so not relevant.

But it is a productive use of their time, and one that people generally use.

Or spend a few seconds saying "Hey, this is another battlefield control spell. SO I'll just dump this on groups of enemies and collect money and power".

But it's not that simple, as somebody who plays Wizards, regularly, I'll have you know that you can't just simplify things like that, or you'll suck tactically. You need to say, here is a BFC spell that is useful under the following conditions against the following type of enemies, and can be completely invalidated by the following thing. So that's definitely some study.

[The Insanity]

The point is that most of a warrior's training happens in the field.

Cool.

My experience is relevant because it showed me how that sort of training works, basically you have a period of fairly relaxing time, then you ramp up training right before you have to perform, and then you really learn things when you are actually doing them.

Well, maybe if you don't care about advancing or getting better you do it like that. Most dedicated fighters train hard every day, at least to not get weaker, but really so they don't fall behind other fighters. In the manga the protagonist was tired of all the training, so he snuck out (actually escaped) from the dojo to get a day of relaxation, but came back when he got reminded that while he's relaxing, his enemies are training to get better.

The point is that there is no reason to assume that the fundamentals here are that different.

There is. IRL you are restricted by reality and your own body's limitations. In a fantasy world like D&D there are no such limits.

Particularly when enjoying one sort of training is part of my argument, for some people the sort of training it takes to be able to "punch and elephant in half" is probably the sort of training that would be fun.

I'm not sure what "fun" has to do with anything. Training being "fun" might be a good motivator to continue the training, but it doesn't make it any less hard.

Also of note that's not really realistic in D&D 3.5 even... cutting an elephant in half is possible, punching one to death is possible. Punching one in half is significantly more difficult.

Versatile Unarmed Strike.

The thing is that in 3.5 particularly, most fighters train till they have a few techniques and then focus on those, as in real life, certain things work.

Not really. See below.

A trip fighter won't need to learn how to trip every single time he goes off to adventure. He might work out a few kinks in his methods, he might try a few new things. And he'd probably need a light refresher, but he's not reinventing the wheel.

Actually, he is and he does. At low levels, when most of your enemies are medium or small sized humanoids, just basics of tripping (BaB, Str and Improved Trip) might be enough. But only a few levels later you start fighting large enemies or monsters with unusual body types (being large or quadruped gives a bonus on trip defence, remember?) and just your basics aren't enough anymore.

Whereas our Ubercharger, our trip-fighter, our dungeon-crasher, just needs to refresh the same styles he's already been using, so there is inherently a lower training threshold here.

This comparison isn't very fair. If you want it to be fair, you'd need to compare a one-trick-pony warrior to a one-trick-pony caster, in which case they're about equal because the caster doesn't need to learn that much more either because he already has his favorite spells.

As you advance you don't need to learn new things as much.

You clearly didn't even read the manga. Of course you need to learn new things. First, you always can learn to punch better. And even if you didn't, you can always train to punch harder. The manga shifted into fantasy territory at some point of its run. The characters do become stronger and quicker and more dextrous, etc. the more they train (to the point they're basically superhuman), sure, but the winner in a fight is more often than not the person who is more skilled and experienced. It doesn't really matter how strong you hit when your opponent knows a technique that uses your own strength against you by allowing him to launch a devastating couterattack, or some other trick. Remember, a fighter in D&D has many feats, each potentially allowing him to do a different type of attack or action. Despite the joke that fighters can only swing their pointy stick, fluff- and mechanics-wise it's actually more than that.

To put it in a fictional frame of reference, it's why Rocky no longer needed sparring partners in Rocky IV, because he already had that skill, he just needed to retrain it, he didn't need to relearn it.

What he needed was to get back into shape. Unfortunately, that's not what is needed for a fighter to gain levels, because unlike Rocky, a D&D fighter actually has to learn completely new things.

Once you've learned to fight, maintaining that knowledge isn't as difficult as you'd imagine, even improving it isn't.

If you want to stay on top you absolutely need to learn new things, else your rivals will outgrow you fast.

You have to do the physical conditioning, but the thing is in the off-season, you can relax a bit, you can let yourself go a little bit.

No, you rally can't. A fighters BaB doesn't grow with age. He has to train to get better. Just doing physical conditioning will leave him at the same level as he was. Whatever "insights" he gleamed from his last adventure will be lost due to his inaction. "You have to strike the iron while it's hot". That works IRL because as I said, RW has limits on how good you can be, so at some point you just have to mentain that level. In D&D? Not so much, because there's always room for improvement, either by going from 1st level to 20th, or beyond that.

While the Wizard is learning a whole new spell level, and planning how he's going to apply them, and crafting items, and studying, you can relax. Yes two weeks or so before you adventure, you have to kick yourself back into shape, and that's probably unbelievably brutal, but it doesn't matter, since you're used to it.

I really don't understand. Obviously, if the fighter slacks off while the wizard is studying, he's going to have it easier. But then again he won't go up in level because of that, so it's kinda silly to assume he will do that.

I said Wizards tend to be people who don't mind sitting in dusty towers studying. I bet you that most Wizards would voluntarily spend their down time doing exactly that. While the fighter is somebody who likes taking time to relax and then doing a really tough few weeks of pre-adventure training to get back into fighting trim.

And we're saying that if the wizard likes to study all day, then the fighter likes to train all day. And all day of hard physical activity is harder than all day of sitting in a comfy chair reading books, not matter how much you like that physical activity.

[AMFV]

Cool.

I like how you just glossed over one of the most significant points I made.

Well, maybe if you don't care about advancing or getting better you do it like that. Most dedicated fighters train hard every day, at least to not get weaker, but really so they don't fall behind other fighters. In the manga the protagonist was tired of all the training, so he snuck out (actually escaped) from the dojo to get a day of relaxation, but came back when he got reminded that while he's relaxing, his enemies are training to get better.

And I've heard that line so many times "While you are sleeping the terrorists are training". Particularly when you're just starting out. And you have to do all of that training that seems really stupid at the time, and much of it is. The point is that the point I'm discussing is past the point you're discussing. There's a point where training in the dojo isn't going to cut it anymore. You can use the dojo to maintain but you need to actually use the training to improve. Otherwise there will be no improvement.

Also training as a martial artist and training as a soldier is hardly analogous. But as an important note, the fact that you need to use your abilities at some point to actually develop is the critical point. And that's the same.

There is. IRL you are restricted by reality and your own body's limitations. In a fantasy world like D&D there are no such limits.

There absolutely are... try building a fighter with an innate Strength over 50, without using festering anger... or grafts. I know because I've tried to build characters like that. And without using infinite loops which are frowned on, they don't happen. A fighter is never going to gain +2 BAB in a level, so once he hits the +1 BAB, that's as much training as he needs. Anything more is wasting effort

I'm not sure what "fun" has to do with anything. Training being "fun" might be a good motivator to continue the training, but it doesn't make it any less hard.

But it makes the fact that it is hard more tolerable.

Versatile Unarmed Strike.

I was more referring to the ability to do that much damage in a single stroke, which might be possible with a modified ubercharger, but it'd be so sub-optimal as to not be really worth a dedicated fighter's time.

Actually, he is and he does. At low levels, when most of your enemies are medium or small sized humanoids, just basics of tripping (BaB, Str and Improved Trip) might be enough. But only a few levels later you start fighting large enemies or monsters with unusual body types (being large or quadruped gives a bonus on trip defence, remember?) and just your basics aren't enough anymore.

And that's reflected in the increased difficulty. But just increasing your BAB and Strength is sufficient to meet those requirements in general. Like I said, it's a minor shift.

This comparison isn't very fair. If you want it to be fair, you'd need to compare a one-trick-pony warrior to a one-trick-pony caster, in which case they're about equal because the caster doesn't need to learn that much more either because he already has his blasty spells.

No, it's extremely fair, a dungeoncrasher ubercharging fighter is extremely optimal, a batman wizard is likewise optimal. If we were comparing suboptimal choices I'd compare a Sword and Board fighter and a blaster wizard. We are comparing people at the top of both professions.

You clearly didn't even read the manga. Of course you need to learn new things. First, you always can learn to punch better. And even if you didn't, you can always train to punch harder. The manga shifted into fantasy territory at some point of its run. The characters do become stronger and quicker and more dextrous, etc. the more they train (to the point they're basically superhuman), sure, but the winner in a fight is more often than not the person who is more skilled and experienced. It doesn't really matter how strong you hit when your opponent knows a technique that uses your own strength against you by allowing him to launch a devastating couterattack, or some other trick. Remember, a fighter in D&D has many feats, each potentially allowing him to do a different type of attack or action. Despite the joke that fighters can only swing their pointy stick, fluff- and mechanics-wise it's actually more than that.

I didn't need to read the Manga. I've actually been to war, I've trained for war, more than once. I have a much better point of reference than somebody that hasn't done those things. Generally you have a training cycle that starts shortly before, because otherwise you'll just wind up crushing morale and wasting effort, you can't keep people at combat readiness forever.

The point I was making is that for a fighter, training too much is more of a detriment than it is an aide. Overtraining is even for martial artists a serious problem.

What he needed was to get back into shape.

Absolutely. Which is the point. A fighter can take time off and then get back into shape and remain a very good fighter.

If you want to stay on top you absolutely need to learn new things, else your rivals will outgrow you fast.

And a fighter learns those by fighting, during the adventure. There is at some point fairly early on, a point where training in the arena, does nothing for a fighter, it's wasted time. It might keep him sharp, but there's no point in that all the time, and it's probably worse than it helps. He improves in combat.

No, you rally can't. A fighters BaB doesn't grow with age. He has to train to get better. Just doing physical conditioning will leave his at the same level as he was. Whatever "insights" he gleamed from his last adventure will be lost due to his inaction. "You have to strike the iron while it's hot".

But it doesn't work that way. The insights he gained will have developed into muscle memory. He doesn't need to retrain them till they've gotten rusty. Because they're second nature, because he needed them to survive. That's his training as he advances, surviving in combat.

The iron is hot is actually a better analogy than you realize. Because you forge something initially (training) then it stays mostly ready, not needing much more than proper maintenance, once a fighter is trained initially, he learns from combat, and the off-time is his recovery.

I really don't understand. Obviously, if the fighter slacks off while the wizard is studying, he's going to have it easier. But then again he won't go up in level because of that, so it's kinda a silly to assume he will do that.

Well a fighter's experience is in this case earned from combat. The wizard also, but the wizard doesn't just level, he has to learn new spells, and do other things, the fighter doesn't need to. Because he's already improved simply by fighting.

And we're saying that if the wizard likes to study all day, then the fighter likes to train all day. And all day of hard physical activity is harder than all day of sitting in a comfy chair reading books, not matter how much you like that physical activity.

I can tell you that it isn't. I have done this physical activity. And I've done academia. Academia was hellish for me, because it was boring, because I couldn't focus on things that I knew wouldn't actually matter in the real world, so after I'd done the one. I couldn't do the other.

[The Insanity]

I like how you just glossed over one of the most significant points I made.

I didn't. I agree with it.

The point is that the point I'm discussing is past the point you're discussing. There's a point where training in the dojo isn't going to cut it anymore. You can use the dojo to maintain but you need to actually use the training to improve. Otherwise there will be no improvement.

If you'd bother reading the manga, or at least some sort of synopsis, you'd know that the protagonist fights very often, and recently even for his life (although he himself doesn't kill). But because it's a fantasy world where you can improve practically without limit, he always needs the raw physical training AS WELL AS lessons from his masters. Not to mention that his "training" nearly costs him his life, each and every day, because that's how hard he has to push himself to not fall behind. Heck, sometimes the "training" even consists of him going out and fighting.

There absolutely are...

There absolutely aren't. You can level up infinitely if you so desire. Epic levels are a thing, you know. RW people have a hard cap at about 6th level.

But it makes the fact that it is hard more tolerable.

Which doesn't change the fact that it's still hard, so it hardly matters.

I was more referring to the ability to do that much damage in a single stroke, which might be possible with a modified ubercharger, but it'd be so sub-optimal as to not be really worth a dedicated fighter's time.

Besides the point. It's possible.

No, it's extremely fair, a dungeoncrasher ubercharging fighter is extremely optimal, a batman wizard is likewise optimal.

It's not a matter of optimality, tho. It's a matter of focus. You don't compare a fighter that focuses on one thing to a wizard that focuses on severeal things. That's not a fair comparison.

I didn't need to read the Manga.

Of course you do, if you want to continue discussing this topic. And that's because the manga is more pertinent to the topic than your RL experiences with training. Why? Because, like the topic at hand (D&D, in case you forgot), it's fantasy. Your experience is not.

I've actually been to war, I've trained for war, more than once.

Cool. Have you trained to fight a giant? Or a centaur? Or a huge DRAGON? No? Then your experience is not relevant.

Generally you have a training cycle that starts shortly before, because otherwise you'll just wind up crushing morale and wasting effort, you can't keep people at combat readiness forever.

Maybe in RW.

The point I was making is that for a fighter, training too much is more of a detriment than it is an aide. Overtraining is even for martial artists a serious problem.

Maybe in RW.

Absolutely. Which is the point. A fighter can take time off and then get back into shape and remain a very good fighter.

"Remain" is the key word here. "Remain" means you're not improving. And that's a very big part of being a good fighter - steadily improving yourself.

And a fighter learns those by fighting, during the adventure. There is at some point fairly early on, a point where training in the arena, does nothing for a fighter, it's wasted time. It might keep him sharp, but there's no point in that all the time, and it's probably worse than it helps. He improves in combat.

Cool. Couldn't agree more.

But it doesn't work that way. The insights he gained will have developed into muscle memory. He doesn't need to retrain them till they've gotten rusty. Because they're second nature, because he needed them to survive. That's his training as he advances, surviving in combat.

Yup. Except in a fantasy world you can always do something better, quicker.

Because he's already improved simply by fighting.

Except he does, because he doesn't learn new moves magically, he has to come up with them. The experience from the fights only gives him building blocks, "insights", not "completed, use-ready abilities".

This whole thing really looks to me like an Appeal to Authority Fallacy. You might have been/are a great Marine or martial artist, but we aren't discussing real world, so that makes your expertise kind of irrelevant to the debate.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I really don't understand. Obviously, if the fighter slacks off while the wizard is studying, he's going to have it easier. But then again he won't go up in level because of that, so it's kinda silly to assume he will do that.

In D&D, the best way to train any skill or ability is to go adventuring. Once you have power, studying is the least effective route to actually increasing power.

Do you want to be a personal accountant? Go beat up some goblins.

Do you want to be a good musician? Thwack those rats in Mrs. Brown's basement.

Do you want to better manipulate the fabric of reality? Get into bar fights.

All of these things will relatively quickly give skill points and feats in the game world, which denote improved skills. Studying generally does not.

The only difference is that wizards actually do get something for 'study'. It's just not something that actually makes them more powerful. It just adds versatility.

A fighter could be argued to gain the same functional versatility by spending time being social, making friends and allies, and generally not being a shut-in while the wizard studies. There's just no rules for that because it's not meant to be an aspect of the game.

Really, this just gets into the whole topic of what we're discussing. Are we talking about what the rules say, or are we talking about what the rules are intended to represent in the world? Because I thought we were discussing the latter.

[The Insanity]

We aren't talking about RAW, I think.

[BeerMug Paladin]

We aren't talking about RAW, I think.

Then why is dismissing how something well understood in the real world works okay? In favor of talking about fiction?

Usually, when I dive into a fantasy setting, I want the non-magical aspects of the setting to match up as closely as possible to my real-world understanding of those same elements. I generally prefer this in my game world too, to the extent that it is possible. But that's a preference I can understand other people not having.

There's some aspects of the game that exist for the sake of it being a game. And those can be kind of silly and unrealistic too. It's why adventuring is the best way to train any skill or discipline, for example. But I'm a bit more willing to accept silly things in the game world like that for the sake of it being a game. And I think most competent DMs try to limit how much attention is drawn to these sorts of inconsistencies.

Unless it's done the sake of humor. Like a certain webcomic I read once.

[AMFV]

We aren't talking about RAW, I think.

Well we're talking about RAW, but in a sense that often doesn't come up, we're including some measure of fluff as well.

The thing is that when a fighter gets a level, he's good to go, nothing else is needed.

When a Wizard gets that same level, he still needs to get spells, which includes researching which ones he wants, figuring out who sells them, and then researching them himself if nobody does. Which is a time consuming process.

I didn't. I agree with it.

I'm sorry you just didn't address it throughout the post.

If you'd bother reading the manga, or at least some sort of synopsis, you'd know that the protagonist fights very often, and recently even for his life (although he himself doesn't kill). But because it's a fantasy world where you can improve practically without limit, he always needs the raw physical training AS WELL AS lessons from his masters. Not to mention that his "training" nearly costs him his life, each and every day, because that's how hard he has to push himself to not fall behind. Heck, sometimes the "training" even consists of him going out and fighting.

The point I'm making is that there's a point when "training" gets you nothing. Once you've done the actual real world thing. You could train and get absolutely nothing from it. All of the skills you need are already muscle memory, you know how to react, how to think. Anything else is just risking injury, and is therefore dangerous and not worthwhile for almost no benefit.

The point I was making about Rocky IV, was that he no longer could train that way. He's faced enough people that sparring with level 1 boxers, will never help him improve, not ever. He's as good as that could ever get him, he might need to work on conditioning (and he does), but the actual boxing, he doesn't need to work on that because it's something he already knows.

There absolutely aren't. You can level up infinitely if you so desire. Epic levels are a thing, you know. RW people have a hard cap at about 6th level.

The real world doesn't work like D&D, some things real world people can do can't be modeled effectively until early to mid-teens, or even higher. Actually functional strength stuff is one of the things that advances to a higher level in the real world than in D&D

Which doesn't change the fact that it's still hard, so it hardly matters.

It absolutely does. We aren't answering the question "Is being a fighter more challenging than being a wizard" We are answering the question: "In a world with Wizards would people choose to be fighters" and again, as I've said before, preference is absolutely a factor in that decision.

Besides the point. It's possible.

But not really relevant. People in the real world can pull 747s... which you can't really do in D&D at any appreciably low level.

It's not a matter of optimality, tho. It's a matter of focus. You don't compare a fighter that focuses on one thing to a wizard that focuses on severeal things. That's not a fair comparison.

It absolutely is. One reason why people become Wizards is because they like versatility, conversely people become fighters because they like repetition. So you train as a fighter using repetition and once you're trained, you're trained.

Of course you do, if you want to continue discussing this topic. And that's because the manga is more pertinent to the topic than your RL experiences with training. Why? Because, like the topic at hand (D&D, in case you forgot), it's fantasy. Your experience is not.

If your Manga was based on D&D, existed in a world based on D&D, or was even in a fantasy world, I might, and might being the operative word be inclined to agree. But the point is that very few people are going to base their sense of verisimilitude on a manga, and many people will base it on their real life experiences.

Cool. Have you trained to fight a giant? Or a centaur? Or a huge DRAGON? No? Then your experience is not relevant.

The principles remain the same fighting a giant as fighting a centaur. As a fighter you use the same feats on them. RAW there is no functional difference, so we can assume that the same technique is used, albeit with greater skill.

Maybe in RW.

That's true. In D&D you don't need to get back into shape.

Maybe in RW.

Well are you discussing RAW, D&D fluff, trying for a real world sense of verisimilitude? Because you are failing on all three counts. RAW training has no benefit. Fluff-wise D&D fighters are roughly equivalent to real world soldiers. Real world verisimilitude works as I described. The only way you're correct is if you're trying to replicate the Manga in D&D, which is okay, but not really relevant in general discussion.

"Remain" is the key word here. "Remain" means you're not improving. And that's a very big part of being a good fighter - steadily improving yourself.

They did improve... In combat, they can't improve on their downtime, because there's no training that would be sufficient. Combat is more intense than any training, anything else isn't going to help them, they have the muscle memory, and the skills from combat, they may need to refresh that, but they aren't going to be able to really improve beyond what they've already done.

Cool. Couldn't agree more.

So why are you arguing that out of combat training is necessary.

Yup. Except in a fantasy world you can always do something better, quicker.

He's already learned everything the quickest way possible, by doing it. There's no need to relearn it, he learned it when he fought in combat.

Except he does, because he doesn't learn new moves magically, he has to come up with them. The experience from the fights only gives him building blocks, "insights", not "completed, use-ready abilities".

Okay, it absolutely does, he's already learned how to charge, or how to trip. He's already got the feats. He doesn't need to magically learn new maneuvers, because that isn't how fighting works. If you know how to charge, you've learned that. You might be able to get better at it. But there's a point where charging a training dummy won't improve you, where fighting a sparring partner in a non-deadly context won't do anything for you. And that point is probably around level three or four at the latest.

This whole thing really looks to me like an Appeal to Authority Fallacy. You might have been/are a great Marine or martial artist, but we aren't discussing real world, so that makes your expertise kind of irrelevant to the debate.

We aren't discussing a Manga either, so my statement is as valid as yours. Also we are discussing real-world verisimilitude, somebody said "I can't see why any person would do this?" meaning that they had a break in suspension of disbelief, in their verisimilitude. So yes, having real world experience is relevant because we are speaking to a sense of reality in a gaming medium

[SiuiS]

What do you mean 'easier'? Easier in the sense of not needing to pore over arcane tomes with names like 'Spell Compendium', or easier in the sense of 'today, class, you will be breaking bricks with your foreheads'?

Easier in the sense of your training is over sooner, can be done by accident just by being fit, doesn't require as much focus, gives you more off-time, isn't affected by your station pre-job, has the ability to put food on table and roof over head from day one without shenanigans, and cannot be screwed up.

Compare to a caster who takes longer to train, must be specifically trained to be a caster often to the detriment of their health, requires focus and dedication, does not give as man off time, is highly affected by your station in life pre-caster training, does not supply room and board without indentured servitude or outright slavery, and has a high potential to be useless unless optimized from a position that cannot be known until it is too late to fix.

Wizard: I got to read books all my life, and got phenomenal cosmic powers for it

No, you got to read books all your life after eventually being taught how to read, forced into menial labor for an old man with entitlement issues who lorded his authority over you, and came out of it with read magic and maybe shocking grasp. Phenomenal cosmic power comes after you outwit the limitless demon hordes in their attempts to guide civilization from the back room, which comes after establishing yourself as an easy assassination target by building a stone phallus in the ling's courtyard, which comes after the irrational political wrangling with people too dumb for you to easily predict or work around, which comes after traveling to dirty, moist holes in the ground and getting ambushed by Slimes and trying not to catch your death of cold with your frail, nonathletic body.

Warrior: I've got to do a lot of exercise and hard work in heavy armor all my life, and got good swordsmanship for it

This is accurate though. The value judgement is flawed; "I am physically proficient and fit and capable of using a lever to affect the world around me" is far, far better than you give it credit for.

Wizard: yeah, to get into wizard school in the first place, I came from a wealthy noble family,

Wait, you straight up admit you have toc. One from the perfect background to be lucky enough to get this job, but it's not harder to get into than being a warrior?

How do you rationalize it as easy to just be upper class nobility? It's not a choice anyone gets to just make, love.

How it actually happens:
Barbarian: NER-*drops the cast song wizard with an Opportunity Attack*

Yup.

Gotta wonder where we're coming from if the guy slogging around in the hot sun at the brink of death being hounded by terrible fiends all day long has it "easy" and the guy sitting in an air conditioned tower reading a book and sipping tea is the one apparently struggling.

Slogging around in the sun actually extends your lifespan. Cold and damp stone towers do not.

See, we can all try to come up with contrivances like that in an attempt to justify a position. Treating yours as fact because you prefer the status quo just seems silly.

Neither starting age nor statistically probably attribute layout nor statistically probable encounters are just my preference.

Sort of confused as to why this Wizard has no free time. Scribing some stuff into a spellbook doesn't take a particularly long amount of time.

Scribing into a spell book takes hours, doesn't it?

(because for some reason we have the Wizard doing extra stuff but not the fighter).

Because the warrior who goes out and kills marauders is doing his job well. The caster who does not have an item to handle his weaknesses and address his XP defecit from scribing scrolls and collecting all known magic for his class and boosted his prime requisite through Eldritch means to the point of perfection... Is going to meet an encounter that reduces him to a much less well trained warrior.

I'm pretty sure that having been in the Marines I know exactly how bad training is... The thing is that once you reach a certain level you maintain.

Getting to that level is hard though. Easier doesn't mean easy, exactly.

[AMFV]

Getting to that level is hard though. Easier doesn't mean easy, exactly.

Well I agree it's not necessarily easy. But is easier in a different way. And harder in a different way. The point I was trying to make is that really by the time a Fighter is level 1, the only way that they can improve their fighting is really actual combat, so they're already at that point. While a level 1 Wizard might be just out of apprenticeship, a level 1 Fighter is already pretty relatively competent. He might not have his best tricks, but he learns those in the only school that matters... the streets.

[SiuiS]

Honestly, I think the only proof we need is that a caster has double the variable age of a warrior. A warrior prodigy human can be on the road and fully powerful at 16; a caster is looking at 17. But on the other end, a particularly slow or thorough warrior is 21 and a particularly slow or thorough caster is leaving home at 32. Specifically because of the ease of pick-up.

And that's just this edition.

[Lord Raziere]

How do you rationalize it as easy to just be upper class nobility? It's not a choice anyone gets to just make, love.

well here is the thing:

if wizardry is so valuable and political, then why would the nobility let the commoners have it? this medieval ages, the nobility go "screw the commoners!" and then send their kid to wizard school because only they can afford it, who get to cruise on the high life while everyone else gets a far worse deal, there is no plausible way for any of the peasantry to get selected to be a wizard's apprentice, and education is limited to nobility anyways even without magic. nobility + education + magic + politics = most if not all wizards are nobility. so many wizards, plus nobles who aren't wizards trying to favor charisma, leads to bloodlines where if you aren't an intelligent wizard, your a charismatic sorcerer. the nobility's justification for being nobles- that they were just born better- gets backed by supernatural power, and suddenly you have wizards and sorcerers ruling everything anyways, and the universe favoring them because of it. the world of warriors and the world of spellcasters diverges.

warriors become little more than bodyguards, rogues become obsolete and so on so forth, even without Tippyverse shenanigans. the rich get richer, poor get poorer, only with magic instead of coin. sure, technically a rich person's life is stressful as well a poor person's life, but as some old song went "I'd much rather be rich than poor." even if a rich person's life causes them stress, its still better than being a poor person without all the safeguards a rich guy has. the wizard creates a similar situation but with spells. sure, you might say that the wizard has stress in their life- but the spells they have access to ensure they won't ever experience anything as bad as what a fighter will experience in their daily life. spells, coin- these are just different words for power, and the upper class always seek to gather more of it while they're already comfortable while the lower class suffers for it.

and in a world of magic wins, the guy with no spells loses.

"I had to study books, learn how to speak funny words and hand signs to manipulate reality then repeat them while the fighter beside me took all the hits and nearly dies to protect me while I remained unharmed. POOR ME." -#wizardworldproblems

[BeerMug Paladin]

I don't think it's unreasonable to have wizardry available to commoners. I don't think it's unreasonable for that to be the standard case, even. Not in worlds where there's apparently peasants who have access to basic literacy. In multiple languages, even. That doesn't just happen, that takes public school.

School means that a specialist teacher exists and is going to notice a really smart kid now and then. Maybe the teacher knows a wizard who's always interested in getting a smart kid or two to be passed along to become an apprentice. There's a reason a wizard might approach a teacher or a school and ask for this kind of deal. Patience and smarts make for a better apprentice.

Once an apprentice, they could help the wizard study their own things, or help out around the lab. And in the meantime, learn a bit of magic themselves. Eventually they'll know enough to fully practice wizardry on their own and perhaps move on.

Of course, if there's not basic literacy across the setting, this could easily be disregarded. But you could still do things like, "A commoner child performed a clever magic trick once (stage magic) for a visiting wizard, and impressed him. Later on, the commoner was invited to become the wizard's apprentice."

[Lord Raziere]

I don't think it's unreasonable to have wizardry available to commoners. I don't think it's unreasonable for that to be the standard case, even. Not in worlds where there's apparently peasants who have access to basic literacy. In multiple languages, even. That doesn't just happen, that takes public school.

School means that a specialist teacher exists and is going to notice a really smart kid now and then. Maybe the teacher knows a wizard who's always interested in getting a smart kid or two to be passed along to become an apprentice. There's a reason a wizard might approach a teacher or a school and ask for this kind of deal. Patience and smarts make for a better apprentice.

Once an apprentice, they could help the wizard study their own things, or help out around the lab. And in the meantime, learn a bit of magic themselves. Eventually they'll know enough to fully practice wizardry on their own and perhaps move on.

Of course, if there's not basic literacy across the setting, this could easily be disregarded. But you could still do things like, "A commoner child performed a clever magic trick once (stage magic) for a visiting wizard, and impressed him. Later on, the commoner was invited to become the wizard's apprentice."

That only shifts the source of inequality and makes it wider.

its creates a culture valuing intellectual thought and wizardry. culture eventually creates value upon which people are judged to be a winner or a loser, favored or unfavored, which eventually forms hierarchies that systemize these values and positions, with the losers at the bottom and the winners at the top. with wizards at the top, the people who wield magic are the winners, the people who don't become the bottom of the hierarchy and thus are the losers, and thus the fighter, the rogue, and so on, they all lose in the eyes of this culture not only because they a fight, but because they do not get an intellectual education or seen as wasting it on swords. the people at the top of the hierarchy, despite what stress they may have mentally, are always the ones who suffer the least, while those at the bottom suffer the most. the wizards are still picked over the fighter. the magic still dominates. only now the common people will reason "oh he went through all that schooling but chose to be some guy who wields a sword, what a waste"

this is inevitably how all cultures work. hierarchies form, the people at the top prosper, the people at the bottom don't, until people get fed up with it, revolutionize and....form a new kind of hierarchy, which will simply select different winners and different losers and start the whole thing all over again. even Anarchy is not immune to this, as its simply shifting the winners to whoever has the most strength to enforce their rules.

and in a setting with magic that can warp reality and do fantastic things? the wizards will eventually end up being valued as winners, then eventually becoming the winners at the top of the hierarchy much like a noble or a CEO. and thus we will end up with wizards having it less hard than warriors regardless.

[Curbstomp]

Guys-

We are pretty off topic. Is anyone still addressing the original question directly?

[Cazero]

even Anarchy is not immune to this, as its simply shifting the winners to whoever has the most strength to enforce their rules.

And as soon as this happens, it stops being anarchy to become some sort of despotism. Anarchy is an utopic state of peace and social stability without any enforced law.
But back to the topic.

Having wizardry in limited access to nobility actually answers the initial question, wich was "why would anyone be a warrior, seriously, that life would suck". Your 95% of commoners couldn't pick any spellcasting class and would have to default to some fighter type.

If everyone had an equal opportunity choice (wich, incidentally, would be some kind of utopia where all manual labour and everything tenuous is handled by some kind of golems), everyone would obviously pick whatever they enjoy more, regardless of what it actually is.
If someone choose risking his life in adventuring when he could spend a quiet, comfortable life, he obviously enjoys it enough to pick it rather than the alternative. Once that is established, seeing some people picking fast gratification trough physical stength training they enjoy over long studies they dislike that might eventually result in learning how to reshape all of reality some day, is a very likely scenario. Wich it was already regadless of actual enjoyment, since wizard actually start at level 1, not 12, and can get one-shoted by lucky crit for a long time, and as such, chosing to be a wizard is some kind of all-in bet that many, many intelligent people would avoid. Thus, we still have warriors.

[BeerMug Paladin]

That only shifts the source of inequality and makes it wider.

...

I think you're placing a value judgement on the relative worth of wizards that just isn't intended by the source material, or is a consequence of the game world. Whether or not one agrees with that value judgement is going to make a big difference whether or not they're going to agree with your wizards ruling over everything outcome.

I believe rogues, bards, druids and clerics would all be more likely to become rulers. But I don't think it's really something that's exclusive enough to only be workable in one way either.

For those still interested in why someone would choose to become a fighter instead of a spellcaster, consider this.

[AMFV]

That only shifts the source of inequality and makes it wider.

its creates a culture valuing intellectual thought and wizardry. culture eventually creates value upon which people are judged to be a winner or a loser, favored or unfavored, which eventually forms hierarchies that systemize these values and positions, with the losers at the bottom and the winners at the top. with wizards at the top, the people who wield magic are the winners, the people who don't become the bottom of the hierarchy and thus are the losers, and thus the fighter, the rogue, and so on, they all lose in the eyes of this culture not only because they a fight, but because they do not get an intellectual education or seen as wasting it on swords. the people at the top of the hierarchy, despite what stress they may have mentally, are always the ones who suffer the least, while those at the bottom suffer the most. the wizards are still picked over the fighter. the magic still dominates. only now the common people will reason "oh he went through all that schooling but chose to be some guy who wields a sword, what a waste"

And the problem is that you are making assumptions about value in our world which don't necessarily hold true. I'm, not to brag overmuch, pretty intelligent. And I have had mostly trade related jobs. I don't want to get a job in Academia or as a lawyer, or a doctor. I probably have the intellectual capacity to obtain such a job. And I would have the raw drive to succeed at it, if it were something I wanted. But it isn't. In the real world not everybody always makes all of the choices with the same value judgements. I value personal quality of life over financial success, and I've made decisions to that end. Even supposing that everybody in a fantasy world has the same option, you can't assume that they're going to value the same thing.

The Guy who went through all the schooling and now wields a sword... is he happy? Because I bet you he might be.

this is inevitably how all cultures work. hierarchies form, the people at the top prosper, the people at the bottom don't, until people get fed up with it, revolutionize and....form a new kind of hierarchy, which will simply select different winners and different losers and start the whole thing all over again. even Anarchy is not immune to this, as its simply shifting the winners to whoever has the most strength to enforce their rules.

But you're also ignoring the fact that the world isn't just a series of vertical hierarchies. Also even in our world obtaining total power is not agreed on as an absolute high point in value. The problem is that you're making a really big assumption: That everybody places the highest value on power, and that therefore everybody would be willing to be miserable in order to be powerful. It's like being rich. There are a lot of people who would like to be rich, but there is a large percentage of people who don't want to be miserable to be rich, and even some percentage of people that don't particularly care about money at all, making it very difficult to be rich, ergo why you would see Fighters in a world with Wizards, even provided that there is no inherent entry barrier (and that varies a lot, and I mean A LOT) with the setting.

So even if everybody could become a Wizard if they wanted to (everyone has a high Int Score and can obtain a teacher, and has the money for spellbooks), not everybody is going to want to. I've pointed out why in the real world I made the equivalent choice, becoming at one point in my life a Marine rather than going into a field which was more lucrative financially. Since having lucrative financial power is roughly equivalent to Wizardly power.

and in a setting with magic that can warp reality and do fantastic things? the wizards will eventually end up being valued as winners, then eventually becoming the winners at the top of the hierarchy much like a noble or a CEO. and thus we will end up with wizards having it less hard than warriors regardless.

But the CEOs aren't the winners of everything in our world. They have a lot of power, yes. But demonstrably financial success is not always linked to happiness. To be fair there is a point where increased financial success doesn't make you any happier. And that is going to be even more the case with increased Arcane power. Where having that power, not only engenders a high responsibility to use it, but having it attracts all kind of unsavory attention.

Guys-

We are pretty off topic. Is anyone still addressing the original question directly?

We aren't off-topic at all. Not even a little bit, people are still answering the original question on this page. We're addressing the corollary issue of "supposing that being a wizard and a fighter are the same entry difficulty would there still be both?" To which I believe the answer is yes. For the reasons I've stated. And we're answering the important question of: "Is the entry barrier the same for Wizards and fighters?" Both of which directly relate back to the original question. Also we've addressed comparative quality of life under different values systems, which goes to explain why somebody might choose one over the other.

[Frozen_Feet]

This discussion has been pretty D&D centric. The basic premise for Wizard life being easier is the assumption that wizards just stay in a tower and read books, and presto, ultimate cosmic power!

But that's not how it went in folklore, not how it went in Tolkien's works, not how it went in Lovecraft's works, not how it went in Howard's works... pretty much not how it went in any of the inspirations for RPGs.

How it did go, then?

Well, Lovecraft's and Howard's works, the price for magic routinely is going to extremely distant and abandoned places and facing horrible abominations From Beyong. In order to get those books to read in your tower, you'll have to go to some ruined city in the middle of the desert and GO INSANE, or hope some other guy has done that for you so you can GO INSANE from reading his work.

Basically, wizarding requires you to do the horribly dangerous adventuring thing while being any mundane hero does not. And even after you do it, it's less "ultimate cosmic power" and more "plaything of apathetic cosmic powers".

In Tolkien's work, learning magic is hard. Most common types of magic actually require you to be the top of your craft first - Elves, Numenorians and Dwarves could make those awesome things because they had decades, even centuries or millenias to perfect their craft to the point where it could reach magical heights. A normal human just doesn't have the choice to do that, most would die of old age before ever getting there. Those who actually "cast spells" akin to those in D&D tend to be angels and demons in disguise, and the price for them doing that is to cloak themselves in vastly inferior corporeal forms.

In folklore, the "easiness" of magic came at the cost of your soul. Or, magic was highly unreliable, and you did it mostly "to be sure" while also undertaking mundane efforts to guarantee your success. And even if, as a Shaman, Priest or Witch-Doctor, you'd be esteemed and powerful member of society, so were warriors. Magic powers by and large were not failsafe protection against cold, sharp steel in mythology - on the contrary, what we today see as "mundane" weapons, like iron swords or firearms, were considered SUPER-EFFECTIVE against supernatural forces, because they symbolized man's triumph over nature.

[Morty]

We probably have 3e D&D to blame for pushing the fact that casting magic tends takes much longer in fiction than decapitating someone or shooting them in the throat does out of fantasy discussion.

[AMFV]

This discussion has been pretty D&D centric. The basic premise for Wizard life being easier is the assumption that wizards just stay in a tower and read books, and presto, ultimate cosmic power!

Well the reason that we've been focusing on that is because it sets the bar at the highest point. Obviously in a world where Wizards commune with the great old ones and get their souls burned out there are going to be less people wanting to be Wizards. So we've been arguing from a point that even where those drawbacks are not there people would still be fighters.

Not that there's anything wrong with having magic be inherently dangerous or difficult. It's a setting and design consideration, however, if we can prove that if magic was not that much more difficult than Soldiering, that due to the differences in the nature of studying magic, that there would still be fighters, it would filter through the entirety of the systems, since it's been proven at a higher bar. So that's the reason is because the bar is higher where we've been arguing.

[Lord Raziere]

@ Frozen Feet: yea but those kinds of magic, if they are so hard, complicated and damning to your soul or so unreliable, its more of question why anyone would choose to do magic when all it does is screw you over in the end. without even giving you the awesome effects other kinds of magic does. you might as well just become an Inquisitor and start burning all witches and books in those universes, at least then you'd get to burn stuff and prevent people from suffering under the influence of evil/amoral cosmic powers.

[SiuiS]

well here is the thing:

if wizardry is so valuable and political, then why would the nobility let the commoners have it?

No, seriously, this answers the question. You've admitted people would be warriors because casting is scarce.

Guys-

We are pretty off topic. Is anyone still addressing the original question directly?

A direct refutation of support for an answer is on topic, actually, insofar as anyone is willing to actually change opinion.

Having wizardry in limited access to nobility actually answers the initial question, wich was "why would anyone be a warrior, seriously, that life would suck". Your 95% of commoners couldn't pick any spellcasting class and would have to default to some fighter type.

Basically this.

This discussion has been pretty D&D centric. The basic premise for Wizard life being easier is the assumption that wizards just stay in a tower and read books, and presto, ultimate cosmic power!

No, we addressed literature in general. We only honed in on D&D because it was the sticking point that needed to be argued. The gelatinous hair with teeth is all I need to say about Lamentations of the Fire Princess, for example.

[Morty]

@ Frozen Feet: yea but those kinds of magic, if they are so hard, complicated and damning to your soul or so unreliable, its more of question why anyone would choose to do magic when all it does is screw you over in the end. without even giving you the awesome effects other kinds of magic does. you might as well just become an Inquisitor and start burning all witches and books in those universes, at least then you'd get to burn stuff and prevent people from suffering under the influence of evil/amoral cosmic powers.

Because they still let you do things that a magic-less mortal can't, period. Magic might be relatively useless for things that can be accomplished by mundane skill, but mundane skill won't let you summon spirits, gaze into the future or raise the dead. Is it worth it, in the end? Who knows, and it doesn't really matter.

[Frozen_Feet]

@ Frozen Feet: yea but those kinds of magic, if they are so hard, complicated and damning to your soul or so unreliable, its more of question why anyone would choose to do magic when all it does is screw you over in the end.

The existence of petty criminals*) in real life tells us it's because some people really are that desperate. Or stupid.

The saying "crime doesn't pay" exist for a reason, even if it's not 100% accurate. Crime can pay... to about 1% of criminals who are smart enough to not get caught. The rest actually shoot themselves in the leg due to all social sanctions petty crime acrues. Unsurprisingly, majority of petty criminals tend to belong to the poorest social classes.

Incidentally, you can replace "crime" with "warrior" to get a round-about answer to the thread subject.

[AMFV]

The existence of petty criminals*) in real life tells us it's because some people really are that desperate. Or stupid.

The saying "crime doesn't pay" exist for a reason, even if it's not 100% accurate. Crime can pay... to about 1% of criminals who are smart enough to not get caught. The rest actually shoot themselves in the leg due to all social sanctions petty crime acrues. Unsurprisingly, majority of petty criminals tend to belong to the poorest social classes.

Incidentally, you can replace "crime" with "warrior" to get a round-about answer to the thread subject.

See this is exactly what I was arguing against, or one of the main points. There are reasons that people would choose to be a warrior even if poverty or class weren't a factor. The same as in the real world, desperation is not the only reason people would take that as a career path.

[Talakeal]

This thread is making some really weird assumptions that almost border on unfortunate implications.

I don't believe that any one discipline is necessarily "harder" than any other. Barring natural aptitudes, I really don't think any one career requires more dedication or time than any other, nor do I think different types of training (for example physical exercise vs. book learning) can be said to be harder than the other in any absolute terms. Some might have a lower barrier for entry or jive better with a given person's natural aptitudes, but I really don't think one can make a blanket statement like that.

Getting really good at something is incredibly hard. And, unlike real life where people plateau, RPGs allows nearly infinite advancement. So even if being a mage really was much easier than being a fighter, well that fighter could simply put the same amount of effort in and become an even better fighter, kind of like how AD&D had different XP requirements for different classes.

Also, the idea that you can be in peak physical shape with no effort and spend all your free time partying is laughable. While there might be a few exceptions, I guarantee that if you ask your average competitor in the Olympics / Mr. Universe competition how much time they spend training vs. "drinking and whoreing" the latter is not going to be the winner.


Most games have more abilities beyond just fighting and casting. Even if swinging a sword was easy, most characters have a large arsenal of secondary skills and proficiencies, all of which are irl full time careers in their own right. While D&D fighters are fairly lacking in skills, most can still be experts in multiple trades, and someone like a ranger, rogue, or monk is going to have to be busting their butt off to keep up with their massive skill sets.


On a side note, a couple people also associate character class with danger and chance of death. I would personally say that has more to do with being an adventurer vs. taking a job in town. In my experience anyone who chooses to be an adventurer, regardless of class, is going to be taking their life in their own hands on a near daily basis.*


*: Barring the kind of 3.5 campaigns I hear about on the internet but never see in real life where everyone is sitting in their own private slow time demi-plane and only leaves in the form of an astrally projected ice assassin aleax of themselves.

[AMFV]

This thread is making some really weird assumptions that almost border on unfortunate implications.

I'm not sure if this is the case, particularly since no two people have had the same set of assumptions that I've seen.

I don't believe that any one discipline is necessarily "harder" than any other. Barring natural aptitudes, I really don't think any one career requires more dedication or time than any other, nor do I think different types of training (for example physical exercise vs. book learning) can be said to be harder than the other in any absolute terms. Some might have a lower barrier for entry or jive better with a given person's natural aptitudes, but I really don't think one can make a blanket statement like that.

They aren't harder or easier, they are different. Physical work is fundamentally different experientially than book learning. Therefore some people will find one much more difficult than the other. I don't think people have been making the blanket statement that physical work is more difficult or more easy than academia. But they are different in difficulty.

Getting really good at something is incredibly hard. And, unlike real life where people plateau, RPGs allows nearly infinite advancement. So even if being a mage really was much easier than being a fighter, well that fighter could simply put the same amount of effort in and become an even better fighter, kind of like how AD&D had different XP requirements for different classes.

You are absolutely wrong. D&D involves working at the same plateau (while you're in a level) having a sudden spurt of advancement (when you level up) and then remaining at the same plateau. D&D is all about plateauing and advancing past plateaus. Most RPGs are the same way, very few of them allow consistent advancement throughout, which would ironically be unrealistic. Since in real life people tend to experience periods of stagnation and periods of advancement.

Also, the idea that you can be in peak physical shape with no effort and spend all your free time partying is laughable. While there might be a few exceptions, I guarantee that if you ask your average competitor in the Olympics / Mr. Universe competition how much time they spend training vs. "drinking and whoreing" the latter is not going to be the winner.

Arnold Schwarzenegger, spent almost all of his time when he wasn't training partying. And he was pretty damn effective. Also you're making a comparison to athletics which is patently a false one. A better comparison would be to professional soldiers. Who do relax in their off-time. You don't spend all of your freetime partying. You spend the time in between adventures relaxing so you don't become so stressed you break under the pressure. Because your day job is so rough and so intense that a few months of light work are necessary to recover from each adventure (the same as with a military deployment).

Then you get back into shape before the next adventure. Working yourself up to that point again, but if you try to work continuously you risk injury for very little advantage.

Most games have more abilities beyond just fighting and casting. Even if swinging a sword was easy, most characters have a large arsenal of secondary skills and proficiencies, all of which are irl full time careers in their own right. While D&D fighters are fairly lacking in skills, most can still be experts in multiple trades, and someone like a ranger, rogue, or monk is going to have to be busting their butt off to keep up with their massive skill sets.

The point is that a fighter advances all of his skills just by doing them. Yes, it's difficult to improve as a warrior. But a fighter is continually doing just that. The Wizard gets more powerful, but he still has to find or research spells. And write them down, and he's expected to cover different niches. A fighter becomes better just by fighting. So a fighter does get all the training they need. Because every time they go into a dungeon they are training harder than anybody else ever does. So yes, they can have an off-week or two in between dungeons, because they train so hard while in them.

[Talakeal]

A d&d wizard requires one day to learn a new spell and has a higher starting age. Afaik that is the only indication in the books that wizards are harder than martial characters. That is pretty light evidence to make a lot of these assumptions, and i would be pretty miffed if someone used it as a rationale to tell me i wasn't allowed to play a lazy party animal wizard or a hard working and dedicated martial artist who spends all day in the dojo honing her skills.


Also, there is a world of difference between doing enough to get by and actually striving to be the best you can possibly be. I would imagine that anyone who does the former is never going to make high levels without tremendous natural talent.

[AMFV]

A d&d wizard requires one day to learn a new spell and has a higher starting age. Afaik that is the only indication in the books that wizards are harder than martial characters. That is pretty light evidence to make a lot of these assumptions, and i would be pretty miffed if someone used it as a rationale to tell me i wasn't allowed to play a lazy party animal wizard or a hard working and dedicated martial artist who spends all day in the dojo honing her skills.

And you've had a D&D Wizard where you didn't want to learn at least ten spells per level? Because I really haven't usually it's closer to 20 to 30 to be honest. So that's at least a month spent on learning new spells. And that's provided that I'm just allowed to buy them, and I don't have to go hunting for them, or planeshift someplace to buy them, or teleport, in which case you'd have to add the time added by not having that uses of Plane Shift or Teleport per day. And that's still not accounting for a character who has to research the spells himself, since nobody is selling the ones he wants. And that takes weeks for a single spell.

Now you could have a lazy wizard, but a lazy wizard is going to suck... That's the problem, a Wizard doesn't improve anything but raw power when he's adventuring, and raw power doesn't help a Wizard that much, versatility does, and versatility is gained through the weeks of studying, haggling over spells, researching spells, spellcraft checks to find the existence of spells. Now it is possible to do something like an Easy-Bake Wizard, but the problem is that the fluff for that (and the feats required) essentially implies that they are studying pretty much continuously also, they're just better at balancing that with their adventuring career.

So building a non-sucky lazy Wizard, probably not going to happen. I'd recommend Sorcerer or Bard instead for that particular endeavor. But what about you're fighter who trains in a dojo? That's certainly possible but what you aren't recognizing is that by the time the fighter is going into battle they are already past the point where training in a dojo would really have any appreciable benefit for them, they've improved by doing, they don't have a reason to pretend to be doing anymore, why train in an environment that's fake when you've experienced the real thing?

You could train because you want to, and that works, but it will never be more than a little relaxing, in real life that sort of training can improve your conditioning, but there are limits on that, and your fighter has probably reached them.

Also, there is a world of difference between doing enough to get by and actually striving to be the best you can possibly be. I would imagine that anyone who does the former is never going to make high levels without tremendous natural talent.

Your warrior isn't just "doing enough to get by". He's improving at fighting because he actually does it. He "trains" by going into the most brutal environment possible and risking his life. All of his insights, all of his instincts, they're honed by actual combat. After you've tried to kill a real opponent who was trying to kill you, you aren't going to get the same training value from a wooden dummy. The things he needs, they've already been put into muscle memory. Because he has been through something so much more brutal than any training, the training he'd do between would be little more than recreation, if he enjoyed it.

Also in a metagame sense, the fighter does not have power in versatility, as the wizard does, he gets all of his power as he levels. He doesn't need to train excessively past that point since well he already has. He's been using his abilities. He doesn't gain a new level of fighting stuff, he just improves what he has, now he may gain something, but it won't be that dramatic.