Oracle Dip for Sorcerers

[Azurefenrir]

I know the rule for spellcasting classes in general is "no losing casting levels, ever". However, with the introduction of Divine Protection in the new ACG, I was wondering if a one-level dip in Oracle is worth it for sorcerers now. More specifically, Divine Protection says the following:

Divine Protection
Your deity protects you against deadly attacks.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells; blessings, domains, or mystery class feature.
Benefit: You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on all saving throws. If your Charisma modifier is already applied as a bonus on all saving throw (such as from the divine grace class feature), you instead gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws.

The only way for a sorcerer to qualify for this without a dip is possibly using Believer's Boon, but the wording makes this suspect. Notably, Divine Protection requires "domains" (possibly also must be a class feature) while the Believer's Boon feat only grants the first ability of a domain and not "domains". Therefore, the only way to satisfy the class features requirement on an arcane caster is to dip in either Cleric, Warpriest, Oracle, Domain Druid, or Domain Inquisitor; out of these classes, oracle is the only one that shares the sorcerer's CHA synergy.

For the second level spell, FAQ says that if a SLA is not found in any arcane list but is found in a divine list, then it can be used to qualify for divine spell requirements. Thus, the easiest way to qualify is with the Aasimar race. We'll use Peri-Blooded as the heritage for bonuses where we want them (Int, Cha) or Agnation-Blooded (Con, Cha). Take Scion of Humanity for the human favored class bonus, and use Incorruptible to replace the Daylight SLA with Corruption Resistance. Since Corruption Resistance appears in no arcane spell lists, by FAQ it is divine and qualify for the second level divine spell requirement. There may be other races with SLAs that work, but Aasimar likely has the most beneficial racials for this trick.

CHA 13 shouldn't be difficult at all for a sorcerer, and the Knowledge (religion) requirement simply means we will take the dip at level 5.

Dipping oracle 1 under these conditions thus causes us to delay sorcerer progression by one and gets us the following:

• Divine Orisons (not big, but something).
• First Level Spells (get spells useful at CL1 like Know Thy Enemy, Embrace Destiny, or Comprehend Languages).
• Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Big Four Knowledge as class skills.
• Qualify for Divine Protection for +Cha on all saves.
• Sidestep Secret for Cha to AC and Reflex (stacks with Divine Protection)
• Can take Extra Revelation (Lore Keeper) for Cha to Knowledge Skills
• Can combine Seer archetype with Extra Revelation for Natural Divination
• Can take Blackened or Tongues to make the curse inconsequential, or take Deaf for Silent Spell (though at great penalties).

Of course, we can still get Noble Scion (War) for CHA to Initiative. This gives us charisma to almost everything important except CMB, allowing us to (among other things) safely dump DEX altogether. Not counting Noble Scion, the total cost of this is 5 ranks used on Knowledge Religion and two feats (Divine Protection, Extra Revelation), or three (another Extra Revelation) if you want Natural Divination as well.

If we are afraid of GMs using combat maneuvers, we can choose nature instead for CHA to AC and CMD. This will not get us the extra CHA to Reflex or the CHA to knowledge skills, but since we already have Divine Protection, this might be a better choice. With this, we can still use DEX for ranged touch, but other than that DEX can be dumped with STR.

My question is - do you think getting CHA to almost everything (along with a few other extra bonuses) and some first level divine spells (for which we can take all utility spells) is worth sacrificing 1 level of sorcerer?

[caimbuel]

Well, you will get many opinions on this, I say it matters more on what kind of party you have, and what type of campaign it is.

If it is a low power, low optimization then why not, loosing the spells for defense is ok I guess as spells are still your bread and butter. If nothing in your party is below the arcanist/wizard/eurdite you may want to stay mailman or what have you to stay viable.

Conversely you also have to take a look the campaign. When it is 50%+ roleplay then it matters more story wise what you do and less about crunch. The other end is the mega dungeon kick in the door and kill the badies, for this loosing anything that helps in combat is a big no-no. And what you gain is pitiful to what you loose, sorcerers are already chasing the power curve by being one level late, going 2 late and you are 1 full level of spells behind a cleric or wizard.

YMMV but IMO everything in PF is now on a scale compared to the exploiting wizard at top and monk hugging the bottom sharing a bottle of "woe is me" with the rogue and fighter

EDIT:typo's

[gr8artist]

I feel that it's worth mentioning that this is also a good setup for Mystic Theurge, which normally doesn't get a lot of love due to the delayed spell acquisition. However, with an easy way to get second level divine spellpower, you could end up with Sor 19/Ora 11, at the expense of some sorcerer class features.

[grarrrg]

Solid enough.
Remember, people have been building Paladin 2/Sorcerer X forever now, being able to do the same thing with only 1 lost caster level is a big plus.

And remember, your Curse counts non-Oracle levels for 1/2, so you'll still (eventually) get the 10th level bonus.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I feel that it's worth mentioning that this is also a good setup for Mystic Theurge, which normally doesn't get a lot of love due to the delayed spell acquisition. However, with an easy way to get second level divine spellpower, you could end up with Sor 19/Ora 11, at the expense of some sorcerer class features.

Ohhh man. Why Sorcerer 5 / Oracle 1 / Sorcerer X when when you could do Sorcerer 5 / Oracle 1 / Mystic Theurge 10? You'd lose a bloodline feat and a couple bloodline powers in exchange for 5th-level Divine spells. If you so Sorcerer 4/Oracle 2/MT 10 instead, you still keep your 7th-level arcane spells and also get to cast one sixth-level cleric spell Heal.

[Zanos]

Main casting stat to all saves is worth a one-level dip. However, this particular setup means that you're sacrificing the human sorcerer FC bonus, which may not be worth it.

[caimbuel]

Sorcerer can be a MT, and with oracle they do share CHA as casting stat. That said being 2 levels behind a wizard for new spells is extremely painful in play. Mystic Theurge is great with a 2x/1x entry, but wizard/cleric does so much better, or maybe wizard/druid for some nature fluff, get a domain and use feats to get animal companion based off character level. Also as previously noted losing those spells know for human sorc is a very bad thing.

The last time I had a caster be 2 levels behind other casters in my campaign the player had his character charge the random monster they knew to run from. Suicide it was but the pain they felt at being second class citizen was huge. I have ran for people that do loose caster levels, but they are gish, DD, or archer builds with decent to good casting as a secondary thing.

[grarrrg]

Main casting stat to all saves is worth a one-level dip. However, this particular setup means that you're sacrificing the human sorcerer FC bonus, which may not be worth it.

Aasimar have an alternate-racial-trait (Scion of Humanity) that let's they count as Human. This lets them take the Human>Sorc Favored bonus.

[Zanos]

Aasimar have an alternate-racial-trait (Scion of Humanity) that let's they count as Human. This lets them take the Human>Sorc Favored bonus.

That is delicious. Carry on, then.