Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

[Temotei]

I'll extend the contest three days to make up for the down period.

[sengmeng]

Totally broken do the fact it is capable of replication of any effect. Even though there is a cost, it's still kina... obscene.

There's also the fact that it's really ridiculous in games that don't use experience points. It also.... overshadows the theme such that your class is more spell theif or ability copier than a roguish betrayer.

If you ask me, you'd better off of making some sort of Polymorph to disguise and some tricks to help you avoid detection.

Maybe the ability to create persona's meant to represent multiple identities.

I can't claim this is really a surprise as a response. Still fumbling around at the moment. Really, I was thinking of calling him the "Double Agent" but Jorm already named his agent, so...

[Almarck]

My view of it is that it's an ability that typically would be t3, but with enough optimization/good synergies it can reach t1 with shockingly little effort. The power is difficult to make proper use of in a lot of ways.


And I already did a spell thief type class. Again, I ask for comments on it...


...I can write up outlines of a good three or four ways to do the crunch for that, each with different priorities. Like, that can be done in a lot of ways. You can prioritise betrayal/infiltration by having it be strictly limited to copying people you've killed. You can use it for having a single character switch between multiple hyperfocused builds for optimization, or generalized builds for roleplay. You can have it be a matter of being a strange partial progression of Psionics or Incarnum, with full Meld and Power Level access, but partial power points and powers known progression, mitigating this by having you get identities with different lists to work with. You can do a lot with the idea of multiple identities.

Almost too much, but then.... multiple identities. Still had to be done.

I can't claim this is really a surprise as a response. Still fumbling around at the moment. Really, I was thinking of calling him the "Double Agent" but Jorm already named his agent, so...

Well before anything else, wouldn't it be more important to designate lore and setting information first, so you could get a feel for the class? Regardless of anything else, what I feel matters for a decent home brew is whether or not the abilities make sense for the archetype or lore the class supposed to invoke. That way you can determine the actual abilities via figuring out the intent.

All I for so far is that you're supposed to be about betraying because of the name. Which is why I felt that the ability copying thing didn't make sense since it felt like it overshadowed the core.

There's also the practicality issue which is something I've wondered about your sneak attack.,it seems hard to set it up without some kinds of charming effects. Maybe charm person at will but you're limited to creatures of 1.5x your class level to encourage stating in the class.
This would go a long way to setting up scenarios where you're betraying someone.


Also to the general public.
You know on the subject of roguish betrayer classes, i do actually wonder if the people who made such classes would be penalized because it's too repetitive or overdone.

[Morphic tide]

So, I just crammed out another AFC for Supernal Thief. This time, it's the no-casting, all-manifester one. I'm pretty sure it makes the class strictly better than PsyWar with it, because of having Sneak Attack and, with this AFC, significantly better Psionics. Pick a Manifester class and a "Specialist" Psion Discipline list for the Manifesting.

The basic manifesting uses the higher of Intelligence or Charisma for the non-PP/day manifesting stat stuff, and uses both for the PP/day manifesting stat stuff. Say hello to the psionic party face, the enemy won't be quite sure why they stopped trying to kill you. This is exacerbated by having the base ML and ML boost for the focus Disciplines both be boosted to 3/4 * level, as well as having PP per day be previous level total plus current level, getting 1.5 Powers Known per level, rounding up and having the maximum power level match the Sneak Attack dice. Oh, and the PP steal goes up by getting an extra PP for every second Sneak Attack die sacrificed, so it's an overall amount of 1.5 PP per Sneak Attack die.

It seems strictly better than PsyWar, because it can pick that power list to go with(worst part of the class's balance, in my opinion, but it beats locking them to the t1's low-gish-support list or having to write out an entire list myself, because some people will want to go face stabbing with it) and have a specialist list on top, with better basic manifesting all around than PsyWar. The list of things the ML boost applies to adds Psychokinesis and Metacreativity, with the boost and base ML rising to 3/4, so it's got 1.5 * level for ML on two of the best Disciplines, just from the class...

Comments, preferably with relevant quotes from the AFC? The request for commenting on the Arcane AFC and the base class still stands.

[Zancloufer]

So since no one seems to have said no there like 6 pages of edgy magical girl added to the other thread now.

Well not really. Still it was something missing in what may of been my favourite homebrew subsystem and the discovery of these threads was the final kick needed to finish it.

Unless there is something I'm missing from my post. Never posted in one of these before so there's probably something really obvious I did wrong.

[sorryjzargo]

Any chance there will be a 5e class contest?

[noob]

If you wish to have a 5e competition do the following:
1:Check the ones that have been made that failed(or stopped going) and learn from them
2:Do a 5e contest that will not have the flaws of the previous ones.
3:Actively work for making it keep to exist.

[GodOfMischief]

My family and I, both of my parents have their degrees in game design, have been working on a classless point-buy advancement system. Each PC starts out with 45 creation points to allot to BAB, their saves, skills,caster type and spell list, armor proficiency, etc. They have to buy all of these at first level, and every level after, get 25 creation points to boost their stats. These do not have to be spent all at once either. This allows for multi-classing and more customized characters without the negatives. We also replaced spells per day with a mana and tolerance/strain pool. With this system I have a 10th level character with a maxed fey bloodline and a caster level 20. I'll attach a file later for the details.

[ShiningStarling]

Life... is marvelous. And busy. Who knew?
Come on by and have yourself a 'brew at the Local Speakeasy, let life be for a while.

Thanks Temotei for letting me post here, hope y'all enjoy!

[sengmeng]

My family and I, both of my parents have their degrees in game design, have been working on a classless point-buy advancement system. Each PC starts out with 45 creation points to allot to BAB, their saves, skills,caster type and spell list, armor proficiency, etc. They have to buy all of these at first level, and every level after, get 25 creation points to boost their stats. These do not have to be spent all at once either. This allows for multi-classing and more customized characters without the negatives. We also replaced spells per day with a mana and tolerance/strain pool. With this system I have a 10th level character with a maxed fey bloodline and a caster level 20. I'll attach a file later for the details.

That sounds very interesting and I've toyed with similar ideas myself, but this thread is for a contest to make base classes around specific themes. Your discussion really merits its own thread.

[Lanth Sor]

What does everyone think of doing a quick brew for the 4th of July due date, Make something Patriotic(Country Optional)? Following the current contest of course.

[sengmeng]

OK, the turncoat has suffered a severe reduction in power; the skill check to ready a spell to be an SLA takes 1-9 minutes (equal to spell level) and only one spell can be readied as an SLA at a time. He can still do anything, but not everything, and not without prep time. Thoughts?

[Lanth Sor]

I am very poorly versed in 3.5 spells are there any major traps or catastrophically over powered wizard spells for their level? or spells that would be of a major concern if "spamable"
Things already on my list are Wish, limited wish are on list of Rituals for my class as would be spells that have extended cast times.

[Zancloufer]

So some comments on classes here:

1) Turncoat might almost be under-powered. I personally might scale back the EXP costs for using other classes' features. You already have an EXP cost per ability emulated and have to make a skill check. I would personally reduced the EXP cost to once and the check to every day. Fail the disguise check and that ability is not available for the rest of the day. Might reduce the spell cost as well. Paying up to 2k EXP to cast A spell is a little steep. Maybe a more exponential curve? Something like spell level * 2 * CL * 20 or so? Make it cheap to spam level 1 spells (though with a 1 minute+ prep time not spammable per encounter).

Also remember that even if you only have to in theory pay the EXP costs to "learn" a special ability once you still have to pay EXP in the future if you want to swap it or learn a higher level one as you advance in skill.

2) Underminer: Very cool super under-powered. Very weak chassis, not much intelligence synergy and while you have in theory 6+int skill points in reality you have pretty much none as you need 4-5 skills maxed to use your abilities well. I would probably look through the DCs and make them easier to hit or maybe more powerful. You have no real power outside of your shtick, it is very situational it doesn't need to be hard/limited in use in addition to that.

Also as cool as summon volcano is in theory in reality it's probably the third worst capstone ability I've seen. Just stop and read it: Pay 2k EXP to loose (almost) all of your gear and mimic an okay 9th level spell. Also massive skill checks.

3) The Oculist: My biggest issues are: A) How clunky and odd the hold power ability is. I mean it's really powerful with a lot of prep time, useless without it. Also hard to understand/use. (B) I would personally change their ability to learn extra spells/powers/etc to more of how the Wizard/Archivist does it. Maybe have a GP or EXP cost associated with learning more than your level*4 abilities known.

[Almarck]

Well. I definitely made something unique but possibly over engineered itself and possibly made it too powerful in specific ways...


It was the only way I could think of to make bioaugmentation a class feature to apply to the whole party as well as everyone else.


It was painful to work on and in looking back, there might have been simpler ways to do things, but I wanted to avoid magic.


I suppose I should pat myself on the back for having done the entire home brew on a cellphone with terrible Internet.
It's done, finally.

May the best gentleman win.





Also, 3 days til next contest starts.

[noob]

The superior object was completed.
It have a lot of abilities that have no point that were placed for no reason.

[Morphic tide]

So, any last-ish minute comments on Supernal Thief? AFC ideas, perhaps? I really want to know what people think of it before the contest ends so that there's a chance for me to adjust it.

[Jormengand]

Does anyone have any suggestions for Agent Special Abilties, as well? Because I'm kinda drawing blanks on ideas.

[Morphic tide]

Does anyone have any suggestions for Agent Special Abilties, as well? Because I'm kinda drawing blanks on ideas.

Well, a poison and magic item version of Maker of Death Incarnate would be nice and thematic for Bond style characters. And possibly force synergies with Maker of Death Incarnate by adding a requirement of actually having poison and magic items for poison and magic effects in the traps. Mechanically, GP costs and doses/charges are the way to go for direct mapping.

Mobility options are also important at higher levels. Mechanically, a setup like Shadowdancer's Shadow Step, where you have a condition for teleportation and a daily limit of distance you can teleport, would work out quite well for the first stage. Later stages could alter this ability, either letting you do things in the teleport action or giving added means of using the teleport. Something usable for flight substitution is needed at level 10, like teleporting into grapple attempts with wording that lets it be more general, just to be sure of mobility self sufficiency.

So... That's three more to work on right there.

[daremetoidareyo]

2) Underminer: Very cool super under-powered. Very weak chassis, not much intelligence synergy and while you have in theory 6+int skill points in reality you have pretty much none as you need 4-5 skills maxed to use your abilities well. I would probably look through the DCs and make them easier to hit or maybe more powerful. You have no real power outside of your shtick, it is very situational it doesn't need to be hard/limited in use in addition to that.

Also as cool as summon volcano is in theory in reality it's probably the third worst capstone ability I've seen. Just stop and read it: Pay 2k EXP to loose (almost) all of your gear and mimic an okay 9th level spell. Also massive skill checks.

Thanks Zancloufer. I very much appreciate the feed back.

I wanted the class to be able to hit major caster milestones in a thematic way. I made the class multi attribute dependent to make player emphasis more important. The DCs aren't crazy to hit with the number of easy bonuses to intelligence checks in general (and knowledge checks specifically) between feats, race choice (dwarves have a feat that put knowledge checks into wisdom and kiloren can pimp that knowledge nature check way high), and magic items/affiliations. I will absolutely review the capstone and limited uses per day.

Does anyone have any suggestions for Agent Special Abilties, as well? Because I'm kinda drawing blanks on ideas.

I think you need a social buff special ability that modulates bluff, intimidate and diplomacy skills. things like taking 10, rushed diplomacy checks, swashbuckler's seduction to learn secret, thayan slayers ability to use intimidate to cause wisdom damage, EX disguise self?

Maybe a "contraptions" option that would serve to be like james bond/inspector gadget/mission impossible type gadget production. Like 1/day contraptions chosen from some class's spell list to produce an EX effect. For example if you made a contraption of the fly spell, you would engage your prepared contraption to make an ornithopter unfold from out of your backpack to produce the effects of a fly spell. If the player can't plausibly describe the contraption, they don't get to use it.

[Zaydos]

So 2 things:

1) I'm alive/back. Hey guys.

2) I hope my class is unscrupulous enough. I mean it's built on stealing people's dreams and ideas.

[Almarck]

So 2 things:

1) I'm alive/back. Hey guys.

2) I hope my class is unscrupulous enough. I mean it's built on stealing people's dreams and ideas.

Damn you Zaydos. Stop being so awesome.

It'll be hard to compete with you.

[sengmeng]

All right, the turncoat now retains emulated spells and abilities for 24 hours and can have readied a spell of each spell level he can cast. The pendulum of power levels is now on the upswing.

Aaaaand I see I have to do all the fluff in the next few hours.

[noob]

Oh no I figured out everything I did was wrong: it is not the people of the base class who must be unscrupulous.
I guess I should have a base class which as a class hits people(or other classes) and steal them for the greater good.
Or the class do not care about what people do with it because it is not sentient.
I guess I will use the latter: Saying how much non sentient and unable of taking decisions the class is.
So in fact I just did discover those lines should refer to the class itself and not to its members since they always say class and not people from this class.(quoted from Temotei)(alternatively I am dumber than my class which is hard considering it is non sentient)

Adventures: Why your class might adventure.

Characteristics: What your class is capable of.

Alignment: What alignment or alignments your class may have and why.

Religion: What deities or ideals your class follows, if any, and why.

Background: How you become part of your class and why.

Races: What races most often have members of your class, as well as any races that cannot join, along with why.

Other Classes: How your class relates to other classes, positively or negatively, and why.

Role: What your class does in and for a party.

Adaptation: How a DM might change your class to fit into their campaign or unique world setting.

Should I also make a stats block for the base class or make the base class's class?
Or I am double wrong?
What is allowed as a base class?
How do I know when the base class I post is not valid?(I mean nobody said "your base class is not a real base class" does that means that I should keep being that dumb?)

[Temotei]

Oh no I figured out everything I did was wrong: it is not the people of the base class who must be unscrupulous.
I guess I should have a base class which as a class hits people(or other classes) and steal them for the greater good.
Or the class do not care about what people do with it because it is not sentient.
I guess I will use the latter: Saying how much non sentient and unable of taking decisions the class is.
So in fact I just did discover those lines should refer to the class itself and not to its members since they always say class and not people from this class.(quoted from Temotei)(alternatively I am dumber than my class which is hard considering it is non sentient)

Should I also make a stats block for the base class or make the base class's class?
Or I am double wrong?
What is allowed as a base class?
How do I know when the base class I post is not valid?(I mean nobody said "your base class is not a real base class" does that means that I should keep being that dumb?)

I think you're overthinking this.

The fluff in your entry looks fine--I just say class rather than members of this class because it's more concise.

Your class definitely pushes the limits of what a base class is, but I think the only thing I would add is the ability to gain Hit Dice/experience. As far as I know, there is no way for an object to gain XP, so perhaps include a way for it to level up to 20 or gain Hit Dice since it is impossible at the moment for an object to have Hit Dice, and therefore, have levels in your class. Even a sentence like "a superior object gains XP as a player character" or whatever would work. You could even add a d0 Hit Die size for this class specifically so it gains HP like an object rather than with its HD.

EDIT: Also, welcome back, Zaydos.

[Grand Arbiter]

So 2 things:

1) I'm alive/back. Hey guys.

2) I hope my class is unscrupulous enough. I mean it's built on stealing people's dreams and ideas.

Welcome back! *insert fireworks display here*

Sounds like an interesting concept to read in the morning. :)

[Almarck]

.... so Contest over?

Does this mean we proceed to voting and deciding the new topic?

[sengmeng]

.... so Contest over?

Does this mean we proceed to voting and deciding the new topic?

Pretty much. Although we've usually started the discussion for the next theme by now.

Edit: I'd like to second the idea of a quick contest based on the 4th of July, but I understand that may not be inclusive of any non American playgrounders... how about expanding it to Revolutions?

[Almarck]

Pretty much. Although we've usually started the discussion for the next theme by now.

Edit: I'd like to second the idea of a quick contest based on the 4th of July, but I understand that may not be inclusive of any non American playgrounders... how about expanding it to Revolutions?

I'd agree to something less American specific



Anyways, alternate ideas:

-DISTANT WORLD'S, DISTANT LANDS
This theme is about a number of things, specifically about distant places. Either by drawing power from them, from learning about them.... or about making them your own. Land matters in some semblance.

Geomancers, Settlers, and people who study flora and fauna specific to regions, or simply people who are about traveling to such far off places.




-I AM THE LAW
Theme of rules, in stark contrast to this current contest. In here the point is that we build classes who seek to protect, encourage, or exploit the established order. Whether this be natural, supernatural, divine, or simply national.

[Temotei]

Voting thread is up. Lots of entries this time!

Next contest will be up some time tonight or tomorrow.