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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Shield bonus's don't stack.

    p.s. anyone else who want's to look over mine is welcome to give feedback *Hint, Hint* .

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Shield bonus's don't stack.

    p.s. anyone else who want's to look over mine is welcome to give feedback *Hint, Hint* .
    Would you like a second run through? I figured I'd give you some time to update/fix before going in again.

    Edit: I'm up to 8 pages and what is essentially four full class ability lists for my class, and the first thing I think is "dang, I'll have to make a new post for the class-revamp ACF." I'm pretty sure whatever Zaydos has is contagious - it got me and Beelzebub.
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2014-08-24 at 01:46 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    If I wanted to put cure spells on an infusion list, how would I phrase that those particular infusions do not need to be cast on an item?

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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    @jormengand: Promised a lookie so here you go.

    1. "All dragon disciple spells have Verbal and Somatic components only, a casting time of one standard action, an instantaneous duration and no save, and allow spell resistance, unless specified otherwise. Many dragon disciple spells do not specify these components." Bit hard to tell what your saying here. I think i know what you mean, but because the spell list is not yet done i can't say for sure.

    If i understand right what your saying is that any spell who's SRD listing makes it not conform to the first part of the rule, is instead altered to conform to it, but some spells will have a note below the spell list entry that modifies this. is that essentially correct?

    2. You say that damage increase's from bard music works for momentum building, but as far as i can tell there's no mention of bardic music as a class ability in the class table, (not gone through the whole class yet, reviewing as i go), so it seems out of place, also what about buff spells?

    3. Ok are you saying that he gains full iterative attacks with each of the two natural weapon attacks and as primary attack's he gains full strength bonus to them? Powerful but probably not a deal breaker.

    Also really recommend you change the leveling improvement from "equivalent to one size category larger" to "Normal weapon progression for a weapon one size category larger, this does not change the actual size of the claws however" otherwise creatures of Large or Larger size are going to cap on your size table before they hit 20.

    Also i'd make this class feature increase the size of existing Claw/Bite attacks, (if those attacks are allready equal or better than these values), by 1 category instead of doing nothing, getting that as a racial is usually worth a +1LA all of it's own and is usually a separate class feature of it's own for classes, so hurting it by not improving it puts those race's/multi-classes behind other options mixed with this class which is unfair.

    4. In the section on Inertia you have this line "However, he can only gain, and use, momentum while in combat." I presume momentum is supposed to be Inertia?

    5. Can the extra AC be added after your opponent has made an attack roll? Also did you mean "can only be re-rolled once through the use of inertia." (italics is my addition). You should probably also add a statement about no more than one re-roll of any single die roll regardless of source of the re-roll.

    6. Spellshifting is interesting, but i'm not sure how useful it is as the only significant difference is DC and there's a metamagic for that so really it's a free copy of the Heighten metamagic feat, (and that would be an easier way to deal with it TBH).

    7. That's a lot of ability score bonus's, if this wasn't stacking with items it wouldn't raise any red flag's. As is that's incredibly powerful. I really don't know how to judge this balance wise but i'm very so-so about this one.

    8. What's the maneuverability of the wings. Also are the wing primary or secondary weapons, and if secondary do you intend to give a free multi-attack feat, (i'd recommend it). Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.

    9. Okay seriously this is really, really powerful. I know several of the effects of the template are not gained because they're class features but your still talking some nice trait's, some nice immunity's and some enormous stat boosts. The stat boosts along are worth 1 and a bit LA IMO, throw in the immunity's and traits and your still looking at 2 levels of class features in one class level.

    10. Is the tail attack primary or secondary. Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.

    11. Hmm don't know a thing about those moves, and without the spell list i can't see how powerful the spell slots would be.

    12. Ahhh right, i mistook this for part of the momentum system. So it's totally custom? Interesting.

    13. I can't see anyone not spell shifting the first one.the 3rd effect produces a question, when you say 1D6/level do you mean spell level or class level, and what other classes stack with tis one for that purpose if the latter.

    14. When you say D15 for spells, i assume this applies only to spells with somatic components. The first and second effects are identical. Also in the last effects case, what about creatures that can breath water, by RAW they'd begin to drown too.

    15. Can't say much on the specifics without more detail.

    Hope that helps.

    @r2d2go: if no one else pitches in sure, especially interested in a review of the Atronach's. Hopefully the more formal layout won't be as confusing for you as my PM wall of text was.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    @MrNobody: Gonna take a brief breather, will try to get round to it this evening.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    What if I wear a buckler while using this? Do I get double bonuses?
    It's a shield bonus. What if you wear a buckler on a buckler?
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    "What's this? A railroad? Well, we better cross it now, or the train will come along and sweep us down the tracks!"

    *kills important NPC, avoids entire planned out plot*

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    @jormengand: Promised a lookie so here you go.

    1. "All dragon disciple spells have Verbal and Somatic components only, a casting time of one standard action, an instantaneous duration and no save, and allow spell resistance, unless specified otherwise. Many dragon disciple spells do not specify these components." Bit hard to tell what your saying here. I think i know what you mean, but because the spell list is not yet done i can't say for sure.

    If i understand right what your saying is that any spell who's SRD listing makes it not conform to the first part of the rule, is instead altered to conform to it, but some spells will have a note below the spell list entry that modifies this. is that essentially correct?
    Well, they don't exactly have SRD listings, but essentially yes. If you look at Number One: Strike, then you will see that it is missing most of these fields.

    2. You say that damage increase's from bard music works for momentum building, but as far as i can tell there's no mention of bardic music as a class ability in the class table, (not gone through the whole class yet, reviewing as i go), so it seems out of place, also what about buff spells?
    The point is that you can get bonuses from bardic music without being a bard, but you can't get SA dice without being a class that gets SA. If you can get your hands on that damage without multiclassing, it gives you momentum.

    3. Ok are you saying that he gains full iterative attacks with each of the two natural weapon attacks and as primary attack's he gains full strength bonus to them? Powerful but probably not a deal breaker.
    I like my combat people to be actually competent in combat.

    Also really recommend you change the leveling improvement from "equivalent to one size category larger" to "Normal weapon progression for a weapon one size category larger, this does not change the actual size of the claws however" otherwise creatures of Large or Larger size are going to cap on your size table before they hit 20.
    I suppose I could make that slightly clearer.

    Also i'd make this class feature increase the size of existing Claw/Bite attacks, (if those attacks are allready equal or better than these values), by 1 category instead of doing nothing, getting that as a racial is usually worth a +1LA all of it's own and is usually a separate class feature of it's own for classes, so hurting it by not improving it puts those race's/multi-classes behind other options mixed with this class which is unfair.
    It explicitly does.

    "At sixth level, and every fifth level thereafter, the Dragon Disciple's claws and bite deal damage as though they were one size larger, even if they were not directly caused from the class."

    4. In the section on Inertia you have this line "However, he can only gain, and use, momentum while in combat." I presume momentum is supposed to be Inertia?
    Yes, it is.

    5. Can the extra AC be added after your opponent has made an attack roll? Also did you mean "can only be re-rolled once through the use of inertia." (italics is my addition). You should probably also add a statement about no more than one re-roll of any single die roll regardless of source of the re-roll.
    Yes and yes. In any case, I don't think that such a statement is necessary, given that you're only going to be re-rolling the die once more than you would have been anyway. If you have infinite re-roll cheese, inertia isn't going to contibute to it.

    6. Spellshifting is interesting, but i'm not sure how useful it is as the only significant difference is DC and there's a metamagic for that so really it's a free copy of the Heighten metamagic feat, (and that would be an easier way to deal with it TBH).
    That... is categorically wrong. Read the spell description of Number 1: Strike or Number 2: Hold. It's essentially getting five different spells that happen to share a name.

    7. That's a lot of ability score bonus's, if this wasn't stacking with items it wouldn't raise any red flag's. As is that's incredibly powerful. I really don't know how to judge this balance wise but i'm very so-so about this one.
    Dragon Disciples already got loads of them, and they were honestly sub-par.

    8. What's the maneuverability of the wings. Also are the wing primary or secondary weapons, and if secondary do you intend to give a free multi-attack feat, (i'd recommend it). Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.
    Average maneuverability, primary as with all DD natural weapons, full str as with all DD natural weapons.

    9. Okay seriously this is really, really powerful. I know several of the effects of the template are not gained because they're class features but your still talking some nice trait's, some nice immunity's and some enormous stat boosts. The stat boosts along are worth 1 and a bit LA IMO, throw in the immunity's and traits and your still looking at 2 levels of class features in one class level.
    Again, normal DDs got it and no-one took DD because they were terrible.

    10. Is the tail attack primary or secondary. Also regardless of status what's is the strength modifier, actual dragons have a non-standard one for wings i believe.
    Primary as with all DD natural weapons, full STR as with all DD natural weapons.

    11. Hmm don't know a thing about those moves, and without the spell list i can't see how powerful the spell slots would be.
    Yeah, it's hard to judge a spell you can't see.

    12. Ahhh right, i mistook this for part of the momentum system. So it's totally custom? Interesting.
    Pretty much.

    13. I can't see anyone not spell shifting the first one.the 3rd effect produces a question, when you say 1D6/level do you mean spell level or class level, and what other classes stack with tis one for that purpose if the latter.
    Well, they might not have the slots available to shift it. I mean caster level, the same way every other spell in existence means caster level.

    14. When you say D15 for spells, i assume this applies only to spells with somatic components. The first and second effects are identical. Also in the last effects case, what about creatures that can breath water, by RAW they'd begin to drown too.
    I mean spells, which is why I wrote spells. The first and second effects aren't identical: one chooses one and the other does all three. The last one I'll make slightly clearer.

    15. Can't say much on the specifics without more detail.

    Hope that helps.
    Yep, thanks.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Sorry for the multi-quote but it's the best way to pick out the points i want to address.

    It explicitly does.

    "At sixth level, and every fifth level thereafter, the Dragon Disciple's claws and bite deal damage as though they were one size larger, even if they were not directly caused from the class."
    Sorry i wasn't clear. What i meant was if someone comes in with a race, or multi-class that allready has Bite and Claw attacks of equal or greater potency they should get a step increase at 1st level to componsate for the fact that other class/race lead in's are getting a power increase via the claw and bite they gain.

    Again, normal DDs got it and no-one took DD because they were terrible.
    You need to go back and re-read the original DD, (that or your misunderstanding what your class as written does, not sure which), they get blindsense s a class feature which takes most of the racial trait's they gain from the template out and the stat bonus's from the template replace the class one's, not stack with them. Yours as written do stack. And that creates an issue where (for example), your looking at a +14 strength modifier before magic items or leveling.

    That's huge power wise.

    I mean spells, which is why I wrote spells. The first and second effects aren't identical: one chooses one and the other does all three. The last one I'll make slightly clearer.
    This makes no sense though. if the spell has no somatic components not being able to move your hands has no effect on your ability to cast it. Even if your completely unable to move as long as you can use the other components, (usually verbal), you can cast.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Sorry i wasn't clear. What i meant was if someone comes in with a race, or multi-class that allready has Bite and Claw attacks of equal or greater potency they should get a step increase at 1st level to componsate for the fact that other class/race lead in's are getting a power increase via the claw and bite they gain.
    Eh... I don't really want to do that, because it just screams "Get your natural attacks from somewhere else!"

    You need to go back and re-read the original DD, (that or your misunderstanding what your class as written does, not sure which), they get blindsense s a class feature which takes most of the racial trait's they gain from the template out and the stat bonus's from the template replace the class one's, not stack with them. Yours as written do stack. And that creates an issue where (for example), your looking at a +14 strength modifier before magic items or leveling.

    That's huge power wise.
    No. Dragon disciple gives you the half-dragon template, and also gives you the full-strength breath weapon, the extra +4 STR/+2 CHA, and redundant copies of the LLV, DV and immunities. Why? Because no-where in the text does it ever say it replaces them. There is literally no RAW support for your interpretation. The WotC dragon disciple gets +16 to strength, and other fun stuff.


    This makes no sense though. if the spell has no somatic components not being able to move your hands has no effect on your ability to cast it. Even if your completely unable to move as long as you can use the other components, (usually verbal), you can cast.
    Yeah, but it might be hard to concentrate while you're being squeezed by a giant squeezy force thing. I mean, you have to take concentration checks in a grapple, so...

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    No. Dragon disciple gives you the half-dragon template, and also gives you the full-strength breath weapon, the extra +4 STR/+2 CHA, and redundant copies of the LLV, DV and immunities. Why? Because no-where in the text does it ever say it replaces them. There is literally no RAW support for your interpretation. The WotC dragon disciple gets +16 to strength, and other fun stuff.
    How about the fact that it lists everything you get from the template alongside those stat increases. Literally the only thing not listed there is the full stat increases, it instead lists smaller values. Also, (just spotted this), the DD dosen't waive the LA adjustment. I'd still say stacking weould be more powerful than i'd be happy with as a DM even with that factored in.
    Last edited by Carl; 2014-08-24 at 01:02 PM.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    If I wanted to put cure spells on an infusion list, how would I phrase that those particular infusions do not need to be cast on an item?
    One thing that could work is putting a * next to each spell that doesn't need to be cast on an item, then put a note at the bottom that says "*does not need to be cast on an item."

    Also, I'll go ahead and look over Jormengand's and Mr. Nobody's... I'll put that up in a bit

    Okay, Jormengand:

    Spoiler: PEACH
    Show

    Anything I don't note is something I like as is.

    Claws and Bite: This is definitely good, as long as "full attack with each" doesn't count outside, secondary weapons. You might want to change "all his attacks" to "these attacks" to clarify, if so (and you probably don't want to give them five full attacks a round )

    Inertia: This is a nice ability, but the "skill check" part needs to be changed a bit. There's plenty of skill checks that use free actions or no action, and some are clearly used in combat, which would instantly give you a whole lot of Inertia. I'm imagining a Dragon Disciple making a hundred tiny hops with Jump and then smashing someone's face in

    Wings: I might have missed something, but do you actually mention Maneuverability at all?

    Number One: Strike - Prone is a much worse condition than pushed back 5 feet (applies penalties, move action that provokes AoOs to stand up) - I would add "and knocked prone" to all of the higher level versions.

    ...That's it! Good class I like it!
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2014-08-24 at 01:30 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Eh... I don't really want to do that, because it just screams "Get your natural attacks from somewhere else!"
    Give'em a cap, then. Eevry time the attack increases, add the 'to a maximum of xdy'. That way, they are not punished early for choosing a class balanced with natural attacks, and at the last 3-4 levels they can opt to accept the (now tiny) nerf or multiclass the last couple.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    "What's this? A railroad? Well, we better cross it now, or the train will come along and sweep us down the tracks!"

    *kills important NPC, avoids entire planned out plot*

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Just reposting a question so it doesn't get lost:

    Question
    : Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

    Progress: Just got to translate things from head to usable mechanics and then I'm done with 1st party non-web enhancement dragons and it'll be onwards to homebrew and 2nd party (i.e. Dragon Magazine) dragons to make it so that you can pick any dragon as your Tutelary Dragon. Also will need to attack the dreaded Thesaurus at some point but I have not yet girded myself for that battle.
    Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.

    Current Projects:

    Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2

    Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.

    Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    How about the fact that it lists everything you get from the template alongside those stat increases. Literally the only thing not listed there is the full stat increases, it instead lists smaller values. And as a DM i would NEVER allow someone to get the full stat boosts alongside the class ones, it's far too powerful.
    It's nowhere near powerful enough. You lose ten levels of spellcasting, and gain mediocre bonuses you could have got with a single spell. (Okay, sure, the stat boosts aren't quite as much as DD 10, but if you really wanted to add a Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance to add that on, you could.) The point is, those stat bonuses really aren't as impressive as you think they are.

    Or you could cut the whole "Dragon" nonsense, PAO yourself into a cornugon devil and laugh because you have 31 strength, and even if the DD had 18 to start with, he still only has 3 more strength than you. Oh, and you're a devil for either 12 hours or a week depending on your INT.

    Seriously, taking levels in Dragon Disciple sucks, and you want to take away some of the few things they do get? Jeez.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Second post for Dragon Dancer:

    Spoiler: PEACH
    Show

    Draconic Dance: My first thought was "Okay, continuous but minor stat boosts and a minor penalty. Sure." But then I saw that it fatigues as rage. "Wait, what?" Seriously, you don't need to do that, at least for the first level dance. Even looking at the choreographies, you don't need that. Now, if this is 1/encounter and not /day (I wasn't sure since you mention both), it's better, but still, you don't need fatigue.

    Choreographies:

    Ballet of Claws: This makes the Draconic Dance thing a bit better, since at first level you're getting two attacks when you Full Attack. But the "full-round action to use both" thing is totally unecessary - if you're clarifying, it doesn't need clarification, and if you're nerfing it so you can't use it with a primary/manufactured weapon, you don't need to. Seriously, this is like 1d4+2 damage with -5 to attack at best. Compare to Whirling Frenzy, which gets you +2 to damage, an extra attack (the -2 to attack and +2 to attack cancel), +2 AC and +2 to reflex.

    Scaled-skin Dance: A few typos, including "poweri" and that (I'm pretty sure this isn't just a british/US type thing) it's resistance, and not resistence.

    On the mechanic side, I like it, but DR/magic is pretty close to useless past low-level. I would definitely scale it (yes, despite dragons not getting more) - Silver and Cold Iron are common ones, Good/Evil/Chaotic/Lawful are also common, Adamantine maybe for the higher levels.

    Move of Moves: Only problem with this is that you can't safely fly in dangerous situations without a +14 to your Dance check. Entirely doable, of course, and since it's at 5th level it's probably fine.

    Magical Dance: You definitely need to base on CR, not age category. Your spells here vary from 1st to 5th level in one, 2nd level to 6th in another, and 4th level to 7th level in the third. Note that Transmute Rock to Mud and back at will at 7th level is pretty close to at-will, two round save or die.

    Hoard Pirouette: Sure, why not

    Blazing Somersaults: Cool, but I'd make it "elemental" rather than "blazing". That's totally personal preference though.

    Dance like a man, sense like a dragon: Sure, why not, again. I'd capitalize though, like every other dance before.

    Frightful Steps:I would strongly recommend getting rid of the cowering effect - fear is already bad enough, no need to make it worse by giving it another step. Otherwise this is kind of weak but I suppose it's a one-and-done.

    Ball of magic negation: Probably okay, though do note that the once/dance thing is basically auto-negation.

    Taps of greatness: You should probably throw in a nonstacking rule somewhere in there.

    Double-step dance: This is fine, but I would make this fatigued and the normal dance nothing. Honestly the dance itself isn't the problem - some choreographies are a little strong if spammed, but this is easily fixed without screwing over the rest of them by making those fatigue.

    Unleash the Dragon: The name change is suggested but a nice, flavorful capstone.

    Pretty good, I'd look over it for typos and such though (maybe use a word processor?) The main problem is the noted Choreographies and the fact that at early levels you don't actually want to dance for fear of fatigue.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    @Jormengand: those spells do nothing because they don't stack with the near guaranteed item's. The DD's bonus's do. If they where to stack then a simple 15 base with +2 racial and Belt of giant strength + tome could hit a total strength score of 44 without leveling bonus's. That's a 17 point strength modifier without leveling bonus's. That is significant. The caster stat boosts aren't to sneeze at either, though their not decisive either. If they where non-stacking with item's i'd be far less "OMG OTT" over them because they'd result in a non-typical score only for strength, and not by as much.
    Last edited by Carl; 2014-08-24 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    @Jormengand: those spells do nothing because they don't stack with the near guaranteed item's.
    Magic items resize to fit the wearer. Nothing about being a devil stops you using magic items.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Tome's don't neither does your base stats. A 16 point bonus + a 15 base + a 2 point racial + a tome is allready a good +8 ahead of the devil. And that's assuming where just talking a +2 racial. If i was setting out to abuse, (particularly your version), i'd go in with a Centaur which would put me 16 ahead, and this is without leveling bonus's.

    Not to mention that the various shape altering spells are amongst the most common items on power limiting ban lists so trying to use that as an example of why it's balanced is really really odd.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Tome's don't neither does your base stats. A 16 point bonus + a 15 base + a 2 point racial + a tome is allready a good +8 ahead of the devil. And that's assuming where just talking a +2 racial. If i was setting out to abuse, (particularly your version), i'd go in with a Centaur which would put me 16 ahead, and this is without leveling bonus's.
    So...

    Remind me why we're optimising strength anyway (to the point of using tomes, which I wasn't aware anyone actually did), when we have so much better stuff to do with our time?

    Also, if you're a sorcerer, you can take spells off whatever list you like, so just grab Divine Power to invalidate any bonus a tome might have given the DD anyway.

    Not to mention that the various shape altering spells are amongst the most common items on power limiting ban lists so trying to use that as an example of why it's balanced is really really odd.
    The point is that one thing - one thing that a core class can do (incidentally, the core class you needed to go into, you guessed it, Dragon Disciple), without opening another book, makes your strength-optimisation (which involves, in the case of this base DD, throwing 13 levels down the sink which could invariably have been used for something more useful) compeletely pointless. In honesty, I don't think that what is essentially a +8 on attack and damage rolls is that overpowered - there's a reason that you can just go ahead and buy a weapon that does 5/8 of that - and if it is, someone can do it better.

    Also, there's a reason why you should compare yourself to the high end, and not the low end.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Magic items resize to fit the wearer. Nothing about being a devil stops you using magic items.
    I believe he was referring to bonus type-stacking.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    I believe he was referring to bonus type-stacking.
    But the bonus from being a devil... uh, isn't a bonus.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    But the bonus from being a devil... uh, isn't a bonus.
    I thought the spells referred to were bull's strength and such.

    I could be wrong.

    But yeah, DD sucks, in my opinion. If you want to Strength-stack, there are better ways.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2014-08-24 at 05:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Just reposting a question since I think it got lost:

    Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

    Progress: I hate translating things into "readable by other creatures" why can't you all just read my mind?
    Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Gah.

    But the bonus from being a devil... uh, isn't a bonus.
    The bonus from the spell you suggested is though and that was what the comment that spawned this littile mini thread of the debate was responding to.

    So...

    Remind me why we're optimising strength anyway (to the point of using tomes, which I wasn't aware anyone actually did), when we have so much better stuff to do with our time?

    Also, if you're a sorcerer, you can take spells off whatever list you like, so just grab Divine Power to invalidate any bonus a tome might have given the DD anyway.
    Sorcs have a specific spell list the last i looked, and divine power was not on there. Also where optimizing strength because if your taking the core DD your not taking more than 1 level of sorc, there is no situation under which DD levels are better than sorc level until we bring in heavy house ruling, (which admittedly seems to be very common based on the number of T3 houserules threads we see).

    The most common would be an ubercharger, but if where bringing yours into it or other homebrew it's because we could have some other class feature from another class that scales with strength modifier, at which point being able to get that far ahead whilst keeping such a good BAB is really handy.

    The point is that one thing - one thing that a core class can do (incidentally, the core class you needed to go into, you guessed it, Dragon Disciple), without opening another book, makes your strength-optimisation (which involves, in the case of this base DD, throwing 13 levels down the sink which could invariably have been used for something more useful) compeletely pointless. In honesty, I don't think that what is essentially a +8 on attack and damage rolls is that overpowered - there's a reason that you can just go ahead and buy a weapon that does 5/8 of that - and if it is, someone can do it better.
    A weapon adds damage, and attack roll modifiers, (incidentally if where comparing it to a weapon the difference is rather larger in your case due to everything being a primary), also a +8 is significant. +8 on a to-hit roll that didn't require a natural 20 to hit is a 40% increase in hit rate, it makes any attack which didn't require a D20 roll of greater than 20 viable instead of eminently ignorable, and turns modest hit chance attacks into near certainties.

    The danger really comes though from combining that high strength with other capabilities. That's one of my issues with it on your class. You can get a +12 un-typed modifier by 13th level which just begs that you go find a class that complements this. Hell even building a simple ubercharger combined with enough broad spectrum of side capabilities from other sources could break things.

    Also, there's a reason why you should compare yourself to the high end, and not the low end.
    Good game design says you never compare to either End of the spectrum. You choose, (based on many, many factors), a balance point and compare to that.

    My own falls probably falls somewhere in the T3 range of the tier system, though obviously being personal it doesn't always match exactly. it's natrually open to a degree of stretching either way like anything, some things are hard to pin into traditional balance factors, and i generally assume a level of optimization below the absolute maximum, (i accept given the amount of sourcebooks that somewhere there will be some way to break something, i just try not to make it too easy). But beyond that i tend not to assume a wizard or a sorc going all out as my balance point because they're clearly broken balance wise in how they invalidate not just other weaker classes, but the entire game itself.

    That's a bit of a simplification but still.


    My worry with yours is that between the way you have natural attacks setup and the easy extreme damage with no real optimization ceiling allowing modest optimization to turn it into one of the best melee classes before we even get to combo's or spells, which are presumably going to make it at least passable in a wide variety of area's. If it didn't have the spells and combo's i wouldn't be worried, i'd dislike the narrow focus of it, but it wouldn't worry me. But with those in place it has the capability to trivialize a number of encounter types whilst still contributing in a strong if less overwhelming fashion to others.

    Just reposting a question since I think it got lost:

    Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

    Progress: I hate translating things into "readable by other creatures" why can't you all just read my mind?
    PM Tometei would be my suggestion.
    Last edited by Carl; 2014-08-24 at 06:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Just reposting a question since I think it got lost:

    Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

    Progress: I hate translating things into "readable by other creatures" why can't you all just read my mind?
    That should be fine because it hasn't been mentioned in the past--only for this contest. The rule is just to prevent people from naming and getting ideas out for the class in homebrew prior to the contest because it'd be an unfair advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    PM Tometei would be my suggestion.
    No need; I keep pretty close tabs on this thread.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    You seemed to have missed it that was all ;).

    Gonna take a look through Nobody's stuff now :).
    Last edited by Carl; 2014-08-24 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    You seemed to have missed it that was all ;).
    Yeah, I just forgot to reply. Got distracted.

    I was originally going to answer with my favorites but I'll save it for the other thread.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    1. Ok i can sorta see why you put the fatigued in given that i can see spellcasters grabbing a one level dip in this for freebie Charisma otherwise. But at the same time both the magnitude of the bonus and the fort penalty make this rather weak on it's own. I'd just ban spellcasting and UMD skill usage all-together and drop both the fort penalty and the exhaustion.

    Also decide how you want this used, per encounter or per day. I'd also base the duration of the newly improved Charisma modifer otherwise your going to have MAD issues unless con is heavily used in the other class features.

    2. Hmm ballet of claws can certainly be boosted way more than attack rolls normally can and that opens up serous power attack cheese given the number of attacks, i'd say the base damage values are fine if you plan on that, but otherwise i'd maybe disallow power attacks and up the damage somewhat unless i find a non-dance related feature thats a lot more powerful. Also what does he use as his equivelent of full BAB for power attack limits?

    3. Hmm like r2d2go said the DR being overcme with magic makes it close to nigh usless in a lot of situations. The Energy resistance is also fairly weak, Energy Resistance 30 is widely available to casters by 11th and by the upper levels they can get away on a limited basis with covering themselves in several energy resistances.

    4. Interesting but without two-step dance i'm not sure this would be especially useful.

    5. Looks good but which caster list do you use for the spell level, many spells vary depending on list so...

    6. Do they get to make saves on subsequent turns to break the fascination, also the DC can easilly be boosted to insane levels. Under normal circumstance without serious racial cheese and within the bounds of core you can't get better than a DC31 for a 9th level spell. if you add a tome and Ioun stone you can push that to 35, but thats about the limit. Getting a dance check of 40 +1D20 should be easy on the other hand, and high is certainly possible.

    7. Interesting, but probably not too extreme. That said it's not necessarily something you'd want to use all the time.

    8. Very useful vs illusions. The treasure scent is moe fluff but cool all the same.

    9. Again the DC scales far too high however the effect is prety weak overall.

    10. Cool but given how high such a check is likliy to be i'd make the dispel check automatically succeed.

    11. Nice idea but you'll want to add appropriate DC's for creatures of small or smaller stature which could increase 5 or more size in theory. Could be a bit powerful, do weapons scale with the Dancer?

    12. Hmm given how early they get versatile dance i'd be tempted to merge it with the base ability, the effect would be virtually the same.

    13. Other than r2d2go's note about the negatives the double dance seems fine.

    14. Potentially the transform is a littiel on the powerful side, a single CR16 creature is equal to a ECL 20 player.


    Overall quite nice if a little lightweight on features. But nothing too excessive in there. As r2d2go noted some issues with phrasing and typos. If you need hand i'm sure someone would volunteer to g through and correct it for you if it's giving you some form of issue.

    Yeah, I just forgot to reply. Got distracted.
    LOL
    Last edited by Carl; 2014-08-24 at 08:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Finished Breath Effects, slowly making my way through spells...

    If anyone wants to PEACH, it's probably doable at this point I've decided not to use any homebrew spells, so the basics (no ACFs, etc) are all out there. Any PEACH is much appreciated and of course, I'll give one back - heck, I'll give one to anyone who asks

    Also, if anyone wants to do a class-swap like Zaydos and I did (I think Beelzebub did one with Zaydos too), that'd be awesome. Basically, make a character (we settled on 13th level) and discuss the weaknesses/strengths revealed through the character building.
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2014-08-24 at 10:58 PM.

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