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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    Also, if anyone wants to do a class-swap like Zaydos and I did (I think Beelzebub did one with Zaydos too), that'd be awesome. Basically, make a character (we settled on 13th level) and discuss the weaknesses/strengths revealed through the character building.
    Give me time. I've only finished 1st party non-epic dragon-based options for the class, and only questionably since I think the Dragon Magazine Compendium is some weird cross between 1st and 2nd party material, I've got to at least cover Dragon Magazine dragons (the rest of the Planar Dragons for one thing), and I haven't even started writing the fluff.

    At some point I should post what I *do* have but... after last time I'm worried about my ability to guess how many posts I'll need (might just go 5; Class, Draconic Aspects - 1st Party, Draconic Aspects - 2nd Party, Draconic Aspects - Me, Feats). I should start the fluffy bits.
    Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.

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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Give me time. I've only finished 1st party non-epic dragon-based options for the class, and only questionably since I think the Dragon Magazine Compendium is some weird cross between 1st and 2nd party material, I've got to at least cover Dragon Magazine dragons (the rest of the Planar Dragons for one thing), and I haven't even started writing the fluff.

    At some point I should post what I *do* have but... after last time I'm worried about my ability to guess how many posts I'll need (might just go 5; Class, Draconic Aspects - 1st Party, Draconic Aspects - 2nd Party, Draconic Aspects - Me, Feats). I should start the fluffy bits.
    Of course, take all the time you need I think we all know how expansive your classes are

    It was more of a general offer to everyone, but since I got the idea from you I figured I'd mention you. I like giving out PEACH but I'm bad at looking at my own stuff, so swapping is generally good for all involved

    Edit: Also, your avatars keep changing, and they're all great! I've only known you from one contest, is that something you do all the time?
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2014-08-24 at 11:36 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    There posted something. Needs some major formatting (abilities aren't alphabetical by level, tutelary dragons are not alphabetical, I need to go through Draconic Aspects to mark which are Ex, Su, or Sp), but it's something and you could theoretically make a character 1st to 20th with it... must add Epic Progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    Of course, take all the time you need I think we all know how expansive your classes are

    It was more of a general offer to everyone, but since I got the idea from you I figured I'd mention you. I like giving out PEACH but I'm bad at looking at my own stuff, so swapping is generally good for all involved

    Edit: Also, your avatars keep changing, and they're all great! I've only known you from one contest, is that something you do all the time?
    Some of mine aren't that extensive. Animator and Intoxicanter were rather scant. Doomsayer was an anomaly!

    And yeah I figured it was more general. On the note at being bad at looking at your own stuff, I found the best way for me to do so is actually to create a character... of course that's the best way I can look at anybody's (I am most certainly not good at looking at my own stuff).

    And sometimes; normally I stick to the Peanut Dracolich changing to the half-peanut pony only for a Silly Message Board Game about counting, but since I was bringing back my old dragon thread I decided to bring back my old avatar
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Zaydos, I can tell you, doing stuff for a large number of dragons is annoying. Ethos took forever, and I'm having to do a little bit of it again. :)
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Thanks Carl and r2d2go for your PEACH, as soon as i have some spare time i'll try to be useful and return the favor!

    The typos are unexpected since i do use a word checker and that some of the mistakes you pointed out where corrections it made. I'll work on it!

    -Draconic dance: I was pretty sure that this one was good since it's modeled on barbarian "rage", i lowered the bonuses (but not penalties, my bad), kept the fatigue, added the choroegraphies...
    I'm not sure that i want to take fatigue away, it seems pretty logic to me that, like rage, such an effort makes you weaker, but i could try to balance it raising the bonus (+4 like rage, not +2).
    And i'm surprised that the /day and once/encounter wasn't clear since i literally copied&pasted that part from rage definition in D&Dtools: the fact is that he has x/day uses but he cannot dance more than once per encounter. It doesn't matter if he has 20 uses of his dance. In the same encounter he can dance only once. Just like a barbarian with rage.
    Good thing to switch the duration from 3+Con to 3+Cha!

    -Ballet of claws: the full-round action was a clarification, so i'll take it away since he seems to worsen the ability.
    Power attack... i haven't thought about it! I'm not against using it, it should be fine.
    Probably i'll write that in case of power attack and similar feats normal BAB still applies for the bonus/penalty cap.

    -Scaled-skin dance: i used DR/magic because that's what dragons have, but i see your point: maybe i could leave DX x/magic at lower DCs and make it x/magic and adamantine from DC 25.
    Energy resistance needs to be improved. I could make it scale 10-15-20-25-immunity to make it worthwhile.

    -Move of moves: given a decent CHA (16) and full skill point on perform (dance), at 5th level (8 ranks) you have a +11 bonus, you need a 4 to hit the basic DC: it's not a win-win situation but i think it's enough!
    Carl is right: this ability is designed to work along with the others. Alone, it's not as good but you already have "versatile dance" when you gain it so it can be useful anyway.

    -Magical dance: i wanted to use EXACTLY the same spell-like abilities that dragons have: i'm well aware of the unequal distribution, but i didn't think it could have been a problem. At 7th level a wizard gets 4th level spell so having a single 5th level spell-like ability is not a big deal.
    And more, this spell like abilities are not at will:

    He can use any of this spell-like abilities of that group as a standard action (unless otherwise stated) every round but each one of these abilities cannot be used more than once per Draconic dance.
    He uses draconic dance with Magical dance, pics up metallic dragons and uses trasmute mud to rock: that spell-like ability was used in the current dance so he cannot use it again till the next dance. But since a dance cannot be used more than once per encounter, he will have to wait fo the next encounter to use trasmute rock to mud (or his reverse) again.

    -Hoard pirouette: i can't see the DC problem since it's the same for bard's fascinate, but i coul balance it requiring a new save every round.

    -Frightful steps: i added the cowering because i saw the effect was weak. Suggestion on how make it stronger are accepted!

    -Taps of greatness: nonstaking rule: sure! I'll think about the +5 size! And sure, the gear follows the normal rules for magical size enhancement!
    I don't think it' that powerful: righteous might (a core 5th level spell) gives you +1 size, a bunch of bonuses, DR... "only" a +4 sizes enhancemente for an ability you take at 19th level seems pretty fair to me.

    I'll work on the double step dance negatives as soon as i decide what to do with Draconic dance.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    The bonus from the spell you suggested is though and that was what the comment that spawned this littile mini thread of the debate was responding to.
    I'm really talking about PAO. Bull's Strength is just an optional extra.

    Sorcs have a specific spell list the last i looked, and divine power was not on there.
    They do have a specific spell list, but this is entirely pointless because they are specifically allowed to take spells from other lists.

    Also where optimizing strength because if your taking the core DD your not taking more than 1 level of sorc, there is no situation under which DD levels are better than sorc level until we bring in heavy house ruling, (which admittedly seems to be very common based on the number of T3 houserules threads we see).
    So, basically, "Because we're suboptimal"?

    The most common would be an ubercharger, but if where bringing yours into it or other homebrew it's because we could have some other class feature from another class that scales with strength modifier, at which point being able to get that far ahead whilst keeping such a good BAB is really handy.
    Uberchargers usually don't use Dragon Disciple unless they have tons of levels to spare. Normally you go for an orc barbarian/psychic warrior with headlong rush, spirited charge, a lance, and the dive action (because you're on a griffon). If you were using homebrew, you'd drop the lance, take a level in Champion and get the 1d12 device and the ability that makes that 2d12 instead, then take a level of disciple apparent and use inferno blade and smash to rack up a bit more damage.



    A weapon adds damage, and attack roll modifiers, (incidentally if where comparing it to a weapon the difference is rather larger in your case due to everything being a primary), also a +8 is significant. +8 on a to-hit roll that didn't require a natural 20 to hit is a 40% increase in hit rate, it makes any attack which didn't require a D20 roll of greater than 20 viable instead of eminently ignorable, and turns modest hit chance attacks into near certainties.

    The danger really comes though from combining that high strength with other capabilities. That's one of my issues with it on your class. You can get a +12 un-typed modifier by 13th level which just begs that you go find a class that complements this. Hell even building a simple ubercharger combined with enough broad spectrum of side capabilities from other sources could break things.
    If you're dropping 13 of your levels just to get a bonus to your strength, why not just... I dunno, be any kind of spellcaster and you could get that anyway?

    Good game design says you never compare to either End of the spectrum. You choose, (based on many, many factors), a balance point and compare to that.
    No, because if someone is stronger than you, you don't see use.

    My own falls probably falls somewhere in the T3 range of the tier system, though obviously being personal it doesn't always match exactly. it's natrually open to a degree of stretching either way like anything, some things are hard to pin into traditional balance factors, and i generally assume a level of optimization below the absolute maximum, (i accept given the amount of sourcebooks that somewhere there will be some way to break something, i just try not to make it too easy). But beyond that i tend not to assume a wizard or a sorc going all out as my balance point because they're clearly broken balance wise in how they invalidate not just other weaker classes, but the entire game itself.

    That's a bit of a simplification but still.
    Mine's also pretty categorically T3, but only because it's actually good at hitting things in the face, rather than mediocre, in the manner of the fighter, and it also gets a few spells.


    My worry with yours is that between the way you have natural attacks setup and the easy extreme damage with no real optimization ceiling allowing modest optimization to turn it into one of the best melee classes
    Yes, this is the entire point, because most melee classes suck horribly.

    before we even get to combo's or spells, which are presumably going to make it at least passable in a wide variety of area's. If it didn't have the spells and combo's i wouldn't be worried, i'd dislike the narrow focus of it, but it wouldn't worry me. But with those in place it has the capability to trivialize a number of encounter types whilst still contributing in a strong if less overwhelming fashion to others.
    That is... the entire point... of T3. You can walk over something you're designed to walk over, and still contribute when you're not designed to walk over stuff.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Update Log: Dragons from Monster Manual, Monster Manual II, Draconomicon, Dragons of Faerun, Monsters of Faerun, Oriental Adventures, Magic of Incarnum, the Epic Level Handbook, Sandstorm, and the Dragon Magazine Compendium added and formatted for Draconic Aspects. If there's any other 1st party source with true dragon species please let me know.

    Next step: Homebrew dragons (116 or more to see) and Dragon Magazine... I'll have to hunt down the box.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
    Thanks Carl and r2d2go for your PEACH, as soon as i have some spare time i'll try to be useful and return the favor!
    No problem

    Anyway, a few quick responses:

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
    -Magical dance: i wanted to use EXACTLY the same spell-like abilities that dragons have: i'm well aware of the unequal distribution, but i didn't think it could have been a problem. At 7th level a wizard gets 4th level spell so having a single 5th level spell-like ability is not a big deal.

    And more, this spell like abilities are not at will:

    He uses draconic dance with Magical dance, pics up metallic dragons and uses trasmute mud to rock: that spell-like ability was used in the current dance so he cannot use it again till the next dance. But since a dance cannot be used more than once per encounter, he will have to wait fo the next encounter to use trasmute rock to mud (or his reverse) again.
    Yeah, I wasn't sure what you meant by the uses/encounter thing, so I thought you got it every encounter plus extra times per day, with no restrictions on uses per encounter

    I don't have a problem with using the exact spells of the dragon, but you can pretty easily scale it by size or CR instead of just outright age. In fact, I'd say it'd make more sense to match a gargantuan dragon to a gargantuan dragon, rather than by age but not by size category, and that makes it closer to balanced. For example, you'd make the 14th level spell for white dragon into Control Weather.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
    -Frightful steps: i added the cowering because i saw the effect was weak. Suggestion on how make it stronger are accepted!
    It's not actually particularly weak - Frightened is a nasty condition, basically removing an enemy from the fight. It also stacks with a high number of other effects, and it's already pretty bad. The fact that it comes at 15th level helps keep it down, as does the nonstacking with itself, but the scaling DC and the potential to force an opponent to essentially become helpless is very powerful. You could easily make it save or Panic and on successful save Shaken if it didn't stack with any other fear effects, but if it does stack with other, outside fear sources, it's pretty frightening (pun entirely intended).

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
    -Taps of greatness: nonstaking rule: sure! I'll think about the +5 size! And sure, the gear follows the normal rules for magical size enhancement!
    I don't think it' that powerful: righteous might (a core 5th level spell) gives you +1 size, a bunch of bonuses, DR... "only" a +4 sizes enhancemente for an ability you take at 19th level seems pretty fair to me.
    The main problem is the damage scaling - +4 sizes quadruples your base damage (every two sizes doubles)/ If it stacked, you're adding quadrupled damage on top of any builds (and, I mean actually quadrupled damage, not D&D multiplier stacking where x4 and x2 becomes x5). Off the top of my head, you can take wield a Large Alchemical Gold Fullblade and then add Augmented Expansion (8d6 damage). 4 size categories later you're dealing 32d6 damage instead, or +24d6 damage. Probably a little stronger than you thought.

    Of course, the fact that it comes at 19th level helps, but the one level dip can get you a lot of things (or LA for being Large). That said, on it's own it's probably fine (Giant Size and the like does the same thing).

    Edit, Update: Finished with all the special spells (I lied about no homebrew)... taking forever but all I've got left to do is scan through the SRD for flavor appropriate spells and it's good to go!
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2014-08-25 at 09:28 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    I need some high level abilities and I had two thoughts
    1)Creating a shrine out of dragon bones to pray at to gain abilities. The problem with this is that it would require the players to set up a "home base" which actually clashes with most campaigns I've been in.
    2)create intelligent weapons by binding the dragon's soul to them. I'm not sure how to do this in a way that's different from creating intelligent items the normal way, though.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    I need some high level abilities and I had two thoughts
    1)Creating a shrine out of dragon bones to pray at to gain abilities. The problem with this is that it would require the players to set up a "home base" which actually clashes with most campaigns I've been in.
    2)create intelligent weapons by binding the dragon's soul to them. I'm not sure how to do this in a way that's different from creating intelligent items the normal way, though.
    1) make it a portable item instead, or make a shrine someplace, attuned with a portable item that serves as a 'conduit' for the prayer. You still need to find a secure place for it, but that could make for some interesting RP with the indebted villagers.

    2)For one, I don't suppose the soul of the slain dragon is eager to serve you. Add a 'must win it over' complication, in exchange for extra power. just an idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    "What's this? A railroad? Well, we better cross it now, or the train will come along and sweep us down the tracks!"

    *kills important NPC, avoids entire planned out plot*

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Okay, so a shrine crafted from the bones of a slain dragon that comes with a ring or amulet. The wearer of the ring spends 1 hour in prayer to attune himself to the shrine. The ring bearer can now access the spell-like abilities of the slain dragon as long as he is on the same plane as the shrine. Those at the shrine can communicate (one way?) with the ring-barer.
    does that sound about 14th level-ish?

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Okay, so a shrine crafted from the bones of a slain dragon that comes with a ring or amulet. The wearer of the ring spends 1 hour in prayer to attune himself to the shrine. The ring bearer can now access the spell-like abilities of the slain dragon as long as he is on the same plane as the shrine. Those at the shrine can communicate (one way?) with the ring-barer.
    does that sound about 14th level-ish?
    That'll boil down to how strong the dragon was but yes, it seems solid, and it's what I meant. Though, I'd avoid taking up a slot. Make it a focus, or a ring/etc. that doesn't qualify as a magic ring, limit-wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    "What's this? A railroad? Well, we better cross it now, or the train will come along and sweep us down the tracks!"

    *kills important NPC, avoids entire planned out plot*

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Well the reason for the item slot thing is because anybody that has the ring can use it. If they slay a bigger dragon he can give the weaker shrine to the fighter. Also it's a way to limit the number of shrines he can use personally at one time without limiting the number of shrines he owns.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Well the reason for the item slot thing is because anybody that has the ring can use it. If they slay a bigger dragon he can give the weaker shrine to the fighter. Also it's a way to limit the number of shrines he can use personally at one time without limiting the number of shrines he owns.
    That... is actually pretty interesting. Do put a cap on them, since he may just decide to open a Dragon Magic Emporium, but I like the idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    "What's this? A railroad? Well, we better cross it now, or the train will come along and sweep us down the tracks!"

    *kills important NPC, avoids entire planned out plot*

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    To try ad avoid bogging this thread down with huge posts going back and forth i'm going to limit my response to what is more or less the crux of the matter.

    That is... the entire point... of T3. You can walk over something you're designed to walk over, and still contribute when you're not designed to walk over stuff.
    Here's the description of T3, emphasis mine.

    Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
    If you've got the ability to totally walk over encounters and it's not very limited and easy for the DM to avoid letting you do your not T3. That's T2 by my standards.

    I actually use the following short summaries for the tiers myself:

    T1: Able to trivially deal with any encounter and never threatened by any encounter in any meaningful way.

    T2: As T1 but a limited range of situations only. All other situations as T3, or rarely T5, (if the T1 situations are sufficiently broadly applicable)

    T3: Able to contribute to varying degrees in most or all situation's. Significantly reduces the difficulty of any given encounter by doing so but is still threatened by the encounter.

    T4: As T3, or rarely T2, (but in a much more limited range of situations than T2 and with few if any capabilities besides it's strength that are above T6 if this is so). Otherwise as T5.

    T5: Can lightly contribute to some or many situations but has limited effect on overall ease of encounter and seriously threatened by all situations, sometimes verging on T6 if a weak capability situation.

    T6: Cannot really do anything and is as close to helpless as the limits of the rules allow.



    @r2d2go: My main reason for seeing that particular dance as weak was simply that like most such abilities it either has a DC high enough to affect most things, making it insanely overpowered, or it has a DC low enough to not affect most things in which case it's weak as hell. I guess i should have been clear, so long as it doesn't have a DC high enough to be overpowered it's going to be weak, this kind of ability never has a middle ground unfortunately.



    @Everyone: Any chance of a bit of PEACH then please?

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Sorry, Carl, got bogged down with a ton of stuff. Promise to get back to you asap. In the very least, before I get back to work on my class.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    "What's this? A railroad? Well, we better cross it now, or the train will come along and sweep us down the tracks!"

    *kills important NPC, avoids entire planned out plot*

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Sorry, Carl, got bogged down with a ton of stuff. Promise to get back to you asap. In the very least, before I get back to work on my class.
    No worries, i am slightly miffed but not at anyone in particular, it's just frustrating seeing everyone else get so much PEACH and me get forgotten when i asked so far back.

    But i never though for a moment it was malicious .

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Here's the description of T3, emphasis mine.
    Try emphasising the next sentence. Now tell me that deliberately trying to get your strength through the roof, so that you can break the game, is not "Specific intent to do so."

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Try emphasising the next sentence. Now tell me that deliberately trying to get your strength through the roof, so that you can break the game, is not "Specific intent to do so."
    The point about your class is you don't have to try. I's part of the class. Seriously, whilst i'd be limited to about 700ish with a human, with a centaur and 18 levels of your class i can without combo's or spells hit 1500ish damage a round on the charge.

    You said it yourself most serious ubercharger builds are doing mass multi-classing and a lot of other stuff. I can do it with nothing but feats and a single racial choice.

    My issue with yours as an ubcharger is that it's near effortless compared to normal. The SRD DD isn't quite as bad, but it does make it far simpler than it should be.

    The other point is that once you start stepping outside of core and especially into homebrew the chances of a class having a feature that scales off strength modifier that just becomes impossibly broken at significantly above 10 rises dramatically. Even with tome and Barbarian levels you'll end up low teens at best. Your's can hit the upper teens and isn't limited by rage uses per day.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    The point about your class is you don't have to try. I's part of the class. Seriously, whilst i'd be limited to about 700ish with a human, with a centaur and 18 levels of your class i can without combo's or spells hit 1500ish damage a round on the charge.
    Does that not speak more of the differences between centaur and human than DD and anything else

    Also, how are you getting 1500? You don't have Psionic Lion's Charge unless you're doing something really weird, so you're trying to do that all in a single attack?

    And unless that +6 strength is really doing the bulk of that extra damage, that amount of damage would have killed anyone anyway. It doesn't really matter whether you're doing three hundred or three million; they're just as dead.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    According to the SRD all primary natural weapon attacks are listed in the standard attack entry. That is i can make 1 from each natural weapon. I may also be able to make an armed attack with the main hand, (that's worth about 300 damage so it does have a notable effect), not sure on that though. Also even if this wasn't allowed, there is a feat that lets you make off-hand attacks as part of a standard attack action. Not sure if it works with natural weapons or if there's a similar one for them, but i'd be surprised if there isn't a feat that would let you do this.

    There are some very rare monster examples with multiple standard action attacks but i'm not sure if they fall under this heading, (having a really hard time finding one now i want one :().

    Regardless with the Centaur i can combine spirited charge with battle jump to turn that 20 point, (or more), strength modifier into a 60 pint damage bonus. Across the 7 natural attacks without factoring in damage rolls that alone is 420 damage. Which is a third fo the way there. I can then throw on the traditional power attack + leap attack + stormtrooper to add another 34 power attack bonus which when tripled works out at another 714 damage. I've allready got 1200 but if i can make an armed attack a valorous collision lance will add another 300ish. Of course in practice the 7 natural attacks, (once you include their damage die rolls), killed any CR appropriate target anyway before power attack or the lance.


    Or hell, lets just look at a standard full attack here. Since your giving out iterative and assuming a one-handed melee in the main hand you have 8 times the following attack modifiers 37/32/27/22. The average AC at CR20 is 38 with a max of 40 so the first lot only miss on a nat 1 and afetr that it's 70%/45%/20% which looks something like an average hits ratio of; 7/5/3/2. Or 17 hits. Leaving aside damage die rolls, (which will be significant), that's a solid 340 damage allready. You almost don't need anything but normal full attacks with no feats to average kill a CR appropriate target. In fact if there are some appropriate natural attack feats out there you probably can kill them in one round with plenty of damage to spare, (Vow of Poverty seems like it would do it for example. +5 damage per attack is good, a further +5 attack roll modifier is awesome).

    A human is a bit less insane, but they're still capable of 2 rounding something, and if we throw in something like Vow of Poverty, (seriously this class is built to be vow of poverty bait), and a feat or two for natural weapons i imagine they could 1 round as well.

    Basically a large strength bonus when you have the potential for so many attacks is a huge thing.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    In other news I found a 1st party true dragon I did not know about. Rattelyr from The Shining South. It has been added. If anybody knows of other true dragons thrown in random books let me know. I'm on to... Time Dragon? Ferrous ones? Gloom Dragons and the 3 unlikable Planar Dragons? I'll figure it out. I have pokemon dragon fever, got to brew for 'em all.
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Well there's the Lunar dragons from Dragonmech.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Well there's the Lunar dragons from Dragonmech.
    If I get into 3rd party publishers (as opposed to Dragon which was 2nd party I believe) I'd start with the Scarred Lands since I actually have those, and probably check out the semi-official Dark Sun and Spelljammer web pages.
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    According to the SRD all primary natural weapon attacks are listed in the standard attack entry.
    Yes, because you can make a standard attack with any one of the weapons, not with all of them as one attack.

    Anyway, fine, I can (if I really want) ubercharge things. Cool. But if you're doing that, your breath weapon is probably crap, and you're not taking advantage of the fact that, hello, nearly everything is your class skill. And your spells have pretty bad DCs.

    It's not really much better at ubercharging than anything else. Again, there's damage that kills people, and damage that doesn't. How many times over you're killing someone doesn't matter too much. If you want to be an ubercharger, there are better ways of doing it (which probably involved PAO by the time you're talking about 18th level).

    Also, the reason you have a DM is so that you can ban brews that were made without taking each other into account (So no, you can't be BDD as well as something that scales ridiculously well off strength).

    Finally, if you really wanted the strength, there was probably a better way of getting it (which probably involved PAO by the time you're talking about 18th level).

    And anyway, if it is better than PAO, then so what? Oh no, one thing we can do better than an arcane spellcaster? Call the Tippy police, the arcane spellcasters aren't the best at everything ever any more!

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    I need some high level abilities and I had two thoughts
    1)Creating a shrine out of dragon bones to pray at to gain abilities. The problem with this is that it would require the players to set up a "home base" which actually clashes with most campaigns I've been in.
    2)create intelligent weapons by binding the dragon's soul to them. I'm not sure how to do this in a way that's different from creating intelligent items the normal way, though.
    Well, to make the first option more viable, you could make it part of their daily routine like a caster - Each morning, they have to pray to their altar (or build a little altar and pray to that).

    Also, at the class strength thing - I think this has gone well out of PEACH. It'd be really nice if you guys could agree to disagree (or at least continue disagreeing via PMs or something )
    Last edited by r2d2go; 2014-08-26 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    Also, at the class strength thing - I think this has gone well out of PEACH. It'd be really nice if you guys could agree to disagree (or at least continue disagreeing via PMs or something )
    Agreed. Feel free to give more feedback on other things but rehashing the same arguments and not getting anywhere won't help either of you.

    Not that I'm going to stop you, but as r2d2go said, it'd be nice.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us


    I need to check what's already been posted more frequently. Zaydos and I's class ideas are frightfully similar. Even in the name (Sįwolwyrm, merging the Old English words for soul and dragon). Although I don't intend on bringing in any outside homebrew, and Zaydos's features no incarnum, which is a small relief (well, except for the incarnum/prana dragon aspects).
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonjek View Post

    I need to check what's already been posted more frequently. Zaydos and I's class ideas are frightfully similar. Even in the name (Sįwolwyrm, merging the Old English words for soul and dragon). Although I don't intend on bringing in any outside homebrew, and Zaydos's features no incarnum, which is a small relief (well, except for the incarnum/prana dragon aspects).
    Eh, incarnum vrs not incarnum is a pretty big difference, I wouldn't sweat it too much

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonjek View Post

    I need to check what's already been posted more frequently. Zaydos and I's class ideas are frightfully similar. Even in the name (Sįwolwyrm, merging the Old English words for soul and dragon). Although I don't intend on bringing in any outside homebrew, and Zaydos's features no incarnum, which is a small relief (well, except for the incarnum/prana dragon aspects).
    Mine is gonna be incarnum... I haven't looked at yours, so I have no idea of the mechanics, but I bet it'll be slightly different due to mine using another homebrew subsystem as well.
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