Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

[boomwolf]

It'll probably work. Up to level 20 for the base and then expand if you like, just like a base class.

Well, its rather a necessity to make a continues progression until 40, after all many dragon properties don't even begin to kick in until later levels. I can cut the table into two parts, but it will be mere semantics, as the entire "class" will be intended for continiues progression, without deviations or multiclassing what-so-ever. under these assumptions-does it still "fly"?


Something else I noticed is that the table tools in the forums changed....this means all my older creations are no longer functional. a shame. also means I'll need to rework all my tables for the dragons...

[ezkajii]

Alright; warning it's past 3 AM so a little rambly.

Fluff: I'm not really getting why the non-extreme alignment clause. I can kind of get the "balance of all dragons" concept, but with Io's position as the Ninefold Dragon who is all alignments but none (and the source of all dragons) it seems odd, especially coupled with how all Core true dragons are of extreme alignments.
>>Oh, I actually was not familiar with Io, I thought for Core it was just Bahamut and Tiamat

Class itself:

Hit Dice: Honestly I'd rather see d12 here and less Con bonuses. They're ultimately a melee class, or pushed a little towards it (Powerful Build + Unarmed Strike) and they're really squishy until around 8th level (+4 Con to give them 10s) and then crazy hit point pools by 20th (+10 Con). I'd cut it to +6 Con over 20, dropping their Fort save by 2, and increase hit dice to d10 or d12 (the former increasing Lv 20 hp by 2, the latter by 24).
>>Fun fact - I actually did intend originally to have the class as a d8 HD class, but the Con bonuses I was giving made that seem intense. Reworked the Con bonuses to total +8, with a +2 at 2nd level, and bumped it up to d8.

Skills: Personally I'm one of those people who hate 2 + Int off of Int based classes. Also why Handle Animal? Or more why Handle Animal and not Knowledge (Nature)?
>>AAAhhhh! Forgot about knowledge (nature)! Also, Handle Animal just to represent the powerful force of personality that dragons have, mostly.

Chassis: Good BAB, good Will. I'd say below average but can work, looking through them I was expecting good Fort as well, but their +10 Con gives them effectively Good Fort so it's probably a good choice.

Weapon/Armor: Ok, fully capable proficiencies although you have to choose melee or range. Leaves you needing 1 feat to really make use of Medium armor, but you might do that where you wouldn't 2 feats.
>>What feat would that be?

Unarmed Damage: Ought to note that the table is for Medium size. But 2 bonus feats (in effect), but ones that might not (quite likely not to) see any use depending upon build, does open up for Snap Kick goodness.
>>Good catch, thank you.

Spells: ~ Bard casting from the Sorc list. Kind of curious about the early access Make Whole, and will note that Limited Wish lets them cast their entire spell list in effect so is probably a must take.

Draconic Enhancement: +4 Strength, +10 Constitution, +3 Int/Wis/Cha. The Strength bonus is reasonable by 20th on a melee combatant, half of Mighty Rage has so upsides and some downsides. The Con in effect gives them d16 HD and Good Fort, not unreasonable but I still dislike the massive change in durability from 1st level (squishy rogue level) to high levels (hp tank++), not because it gets too high, but because it starts so low; at the very least I'd up their HD to d8s. The mental ability score bonuses are nice, helping to make up for low Skill Points and MAD a little by bolstering a poor Charisma.

Overland Movement: I meant to include this in Dragon Form, *shrugs* DSA gets enough already. Regardless nice touch.

Draconic Resistances: Some of them are odd (disease/poison/planar traits) but none are unbalanced or completely ridiculous. Poison is a fairly common dragon immunity (not so much disease) and between their elemental subtypes, gem dragons, and planar dragons the planar traits part makes sense.

Powerful Build: Nice Lv 3 ability, helps make them relevant before 2nd level spells.

Keen Senses: Scent is the best of these. I was a little surprised to see it double since I didn't even think true dragons got scent (checking they don't), but it's a nice ability and they really should (Smaug and Bilbo). I'd actually be tempted to move this down a little. The 9th level doubling of senses is again nice, not a big bonus (except again for scent) but far from useless. Blindsense is also pretty useful when you get it, a step up from scent but you know that already.
>>Yeah scent was being used as kind of a 'precursor' to true blindsense.

Bonus Feat: Shot-on-the-Run without prereqs is nice. Power Attack is the other really good one. Flyby Attack could be with their access to the Fly spell but I worry it has to compete with so many other 2nd level spells for slots (especially Wraithstrike).

Speed Bonus: Reasonable, a bit of a monk feel to this class.

Specialize Adaptations:
>>Made an effort to rebalance the adaptations within themselves, and make them more useful.

Cave Dragon: Either quite good, or quite useless (if you can burrow burrow is awesome, but you often can't). Advanced Adaptation is eventually obsoleted but a great sensory method for 4 levels.

Mountain Dragon: Climb speed is nice and when it's useful useful. You can also use this to get up out of melee range, in theory, to lob spells so that's something. Advanced Adaptation needs to be at least as a monk of your level.

Sage Dragon: Probably the best adaptation. Immunity to Mind-Affecting at 10th is pretty early and I've seen people say it's too early as late as 13th. Normally I'd peg this as a ~12-15 level ability. The save bonus is also pretty useful and more likely to show up than say a burrow speed and when you need it it's so good.

Nimble Dragon: I'd make the Freedom of Movement effect Su myself. It's a strong effect at 10th level, but not unreasonable; as a note 3/day with full duration should see it up whenever it matters. The basic one is also good and depending upon DM I might end up with this as my first one.

Water Dragon: I'd say this one is worse than the Mountain Dragon or Cave Dragon. I'd up the Swim speed to Land speed. Even then without water breathing a swim speed is only so-so

Massive Dragon: The weakest. Wind effects just aren't common, and +50% weight is more likely a disadvantage than an advantage.

Brilliant Dragon: Unless you're undead the advanced is obsoleted by Sage Dragon's (all patterns are mind-affecting). The beginning is decent but unlikely to come up often. I'd say this is the 2nd worst.

I'd probably go Sage/Nimble/Water/Cave or Mountain; the first two could switch and the last three could rearrange as well, though.

Damage Reduction: I am personally never a fan of DR 20. Here this will put some monsters' attacks down flat (pit fiends), mildly impact a balor, and do nothing to a dragon. That said it's a reasonable ability because it can be overcome. Gets a lot stronger at 16th and 19th as it pushes past the damage threshold for attacks (i.e. a lot of attacks do not deal more damage than this past this level) where as before that most creatures will be able to power through it at least.
>>As I've seen said many times on the forums, DR /magic is relatively useless and higher levels, with so many natural weapons bypassing it and pretty much every creature with class levels going to have magic weapons. Plus it basically mimics the dragon's progression, so I thought it fine to keep.

SR: Reasonable amount. Might drop this to 8th level, as it is (relatively) empty.

Frightful Presence: I'd drop the range to 15-ft per level, it feels odd they get it larger than Great Wyrms, and leave the hit dice for panicked at 5 flat. But this is more thematic reasons than power level.
>>That makes sense, I didn't even check to compare it at max level. Done and done.

Crush: Rather meh, but it fills the level. Should note the save DC.
>>Whoops, yeah

Draconic Aging: Like Timeless Body this ability can get problematic, actually far worse than timeless body. In actual play it shouldn't be problematic unless somebody is playing a several century old elan. The DM will just need to say "no, you can't start as someone who has been 15th level in this class for 900 years" outside of that.
>>TBH I was kind of banking on that. Trying to pull that kind of move in a real campaign sounds like some super cheese to me.


Draconic Prestige: Save DC should be normal (10 +1/2 level + Cha mod). Even then I'd say it should be like sanctuary and if you've attacked them then they don't need a save, at least if you've attempted lethal force yourself.
>>Tweaked it a little, let me know what you think.

Draconic Ascension: Mechanically almost a non-ability, and possibly a debuff depending upon how much you like Enlarge Person, but fits thematically.
>>Adjusted to compensate for the debuff aspect.

Overall: Looks fairly balanced. Looks like it'd have power curve issues with really weak lower levels and then... well tier 3 higher levels, you might want to give them Scent at Lv 2, and d8 hit dice to help this a bit, as at the moment until Lv 3 they're a bad Warrior. Maybe move 1st level spells or powerful build down to 2nd level. Other than that it checks out pretty well, although Draconic Prestige bothers me (specifically the heightened DC + ability to attack with level force and not be responded to in kind especially without it being mind-affecting).
>>Should've noted that draconic prestige would be mind-affecting, that makes sense. Other than that, I originally had Powerful Build at 2nd level, but then I realized that this class would make a hell of a two-level dip for certain builds (powerful build and dragonblood subtype, with good will saves? Sounds like clerical abuse to me.)

Hope this helps a bit, looks real nice for a first try at homebrew.

Thank you very much! All very insightful - and not terribly rambling either! My return-PEACH to follow shortly.

[ezkajii]

@Zaydos:

Fluff: Feels a lot like dragon disciple - but that's totally okay.
Hoard Abilities: It is unclear how long the benefits last. Do they last for the entire day? Otherwise, I really like the selections available and the price-balance seems quite on-point.
Claws: Just a small note about the changing of 'person' from second-person to third-person mid-entry.
Cantrips: I really like the idea of gaining cantrips as at-will SLAs. Curious why specific ones require a certain minimum level - are these just ones you viewed as more spammable? Also, I assume the caster level is just equal to your class levels?
Immunities: Immunity to sleep at level three is plenty good, given that elves get it at effectively level zero. Now I'm obviously newer to this stuff but it seems like immunity to paralysis at level three is SUPER GOOD. It's one of the most effective foe-control methods, and seems like a fairly uncommon resistance outside of the world of dragons. Maybe scale it so paralysis comes online more like level 6 or 8?
Spell Pool: This ability is obviously at the core of the class, just underneath the dragon tutelage concept. I would recommend adding a column to the class table that indicates the highest-level spell they can use from their spell pool. As well, it seems somewhat confusing to have the amount of power required to use the spells decrease with level-up when the amount of points to spend on doing so increases as well. I would recommend having each level use a specific number of points (perhaps equal to the equivalent spell level +1), and increase the amount of spell pool points to ensure the # of uses per day you were aiming for, just to kind of streamline it. I like substituting psionics for sorcery as appropriate for the Tutelary Dragon - nice touch, especially with the augmentation system.
+2 Strength and +2 Charisma: Might just be my own personal sense of organization but I would recommend giving these abilities a name like Strength Boost or something, just so the ability doesn't start with a plus sign. Eh.
Fangs: I might make a connection between the Fangs ability and the Fundamentalis Diet ability, which mentions you don't get any specific method of chewing up harsh materials - it's pretty common sense from a DMing standpoint but couldn't hurt to have spelled out.

Overall, I noticed our classes are actually more similar than I would've expected. (I made a point not to read any existing submissions before making mine.) That's (hopefully) mostly just due to it being a unifying theme, and dragons having a certain set of abilities to be emulated.
I particularly like the Hoard ability - between that and the HUGE amount of dragon support you've provided, you've got a lot of room for character customization even before the spell pool enters into the equation. And the 'new mechanics' from your class aren't convoluted or hard to pick up. I feel like a lot of classes that introduce new mechanics make them way too intricate and they becoem inaccessible or off-putting, but you've got everything spelled out pretty clearly, for the most part. All in all, seems like a pretty solid, logical class.

[Zaydos]

General note: still willing to exchange NPC stats if anyone is game, also check the Pit of Calamity if you want to try and build a char of your own to throw into some senseless fights.

Thank you very much! All very insightful - and not terribly rambling either! My return-PEACH to follow shortly.

>Io is talked about in the Draconomicon and mentioned briefly in the Manual of the Planes; he got demoted to Lesser Deity once, but normally is a Greater Deity and possible candidate for Overdeity (as he's often ascribed the role of making the Great Wheel/world). He's known as the 9 Fold Dragon and each dragon species is supposed to see their own alignment and Bahamut and Tiamat are sometimes listed as his children, his good and evil halves, although Bahamut is also suspected of being Lendys and Tamara's son (apparently they're married, and both appear as wingless and stained platinum dragons according to the 2e sources).

>I can understand the way you'd hop about on that.

>Can understand that, I was rather saddened not to have a good excuse to give it to more tutelary dragons.

>Battle Caster (Complete Arcane page 75).

>Specializations: Look a little better balanced against each other now, I will note that as written the tremorsense range doubles before you get tremorsense (was that supposed to be 18th level?).

>DR I could go on a paragraph explanation of how it impacts 5 different types of high level encounters I often run, but you've already shown you get what I was getting at so I won't.

>Draconic Aging: Yeah; it's the kind of thing I couldn't not point out, because (especially in PbPs) I've had people try and pull that kind of thing, but it's not really problem (by that point it was near 4 AM and I was probably less than clear).

>Draconic Prestige: Changes look good.

>And yeah I can see why

@Zaydos:

Fluff: Feels a lot like dragon disciple - but that's totally okay.
Hoard Abilities: It is unclear how long the benefits last. Do they last for the entire day? Otherwise, I really like the selections available and the price-balance seems quite on-point.
Claws: Just a small note about the changing of 'person' from second-person to third-person mid-entry.
Cantrips: I really like the idea of gaining cantrips as at-will SLAs. Curious why specific ones require a certain minimum level - are these just ones you viewed as more spammable? Also, I assume the caster level is just equal to your class levels?
Immunities: Immunity to sleep at level three is plenty good, given that elves get it at effectively level zero. Now I'm obviously newer to this stuff but it seems like immunity to paralysis at level three is SUPER GOOD. It's one of the most effective foe-control methods, and seems like a fairly uncommon resistance outside of the world of dragons. Maybe scale it so paralysis comes online more like level 6 or 8?
Spell Pool: This ability is obviously at the core of the class, just underneath the dragon tutelage concept. I would recommend adding a column to the class table that indicates the highest-level spell they can use from their spell pool. As well, it seems somewhat confusing to have the amount of power required to use the spells decrease with level-up when the amount of points to spend on doing so increases as well. I would recommend having each level use a specific number of points (perhaps equal to the equivalent spell level +1), and increase the amount of spell pool points to ensure the # of uses per day you were aiming for, just to kind of streamline it. I like substituting psionics for sorcery as appropriate for the Tutelary Dragon - nice touch, especially with the augmentation system.
+2 Strength and +2 Charisma: Might just be my own personal sense of organization but I would recommend giving these abilities a name like Strength Boost or something, just so the ability doesn't start with a plus sign. Eh.
Fangs: I might make a connection between the Fangs ability and the Fundamentalis Diet ability, which mentions you don't get any specific method of chewing up harsh materials - it's pretty common sense from a DMing standpoint but couldn't hurt to have spelled out.

Overall, I noticed our classes are actually more similar than I would've expected. (I made a point not to read any existing submissions before making mine.) That's (hopefully) mostly just due to it being a unifying theme, and dragons having a certain set of abilities to be emulated.
I particularly like the Hoard ability - between that and the HUGE amount of dragon support you've provided, you've got a lot of room for character customization even before the spell pool enters into the equation. And the 'new mechanics' from your class aren't convoluted or hard to pick up. I feel like a lot of classes that introduce new mechanics make them way too intricate and they becoem inaccessible or off-putting, but you've got everything spelled out pretty clearly, for the most part. All in all, seems like a pretty solid, logical class.

Hoard abilities should be for 24 hours, will edit to clarify.

Claws: Thanks for the catch.

Cantrips: CL = Class level, will add. And level requirements were either do to spammable functionality (ghost sound) or how they have the potential to warp the game world (at-will mending/prestidigitation).

Immunities: I've honestly not seen paralysis come up that often (and have learned to avoid it as a DM as it tends to result in one player just really not having much fun), I might just leave it off till they gain the dragon type (as it's part of the type); I'll have to think a little more about this.

Spell Pool:The reason I did it how I did were many faceted. Partially it's the math, I'd have to actually go with at least 5 cost levels to have the point costs stay stable instead of 3, and lose the aspect that your highest level spell doesn't actually cost you more than what you'd been using for 3-4 levels, but is limited by that you only get 1. Additionally it let me give you abilities that inherently scale with level or are just things that (unlike most low level spells) stay about as useful throughout the entire game (there are spells that are exceptions to this, or which grow stronger with levels *cough* wraithstrike *cough*) that cost spell pool points and not need to have them change or make certain draconic aspects strong when you get them but become only occasionally used later. At the same time I will admit the system has difficult spots (trying to make feats that gave you extra Spell Pool Points taught me that).

+2 X: Maybe Draconic Body and Draconic Spirit as names?

Overall: Thanks. The only class I looked over beyond the name before making mine was the Dragon Priest because that was the original name I was going to give the Dragonsoul Acolyte and I wanted to double check how much of a dragon priest they really were. I do not find that two classes with names starting with Dragonsoul are similar to be too surprising, though; I mean shows thought coming from the same basic place, but they are two quite different takes on the concept (one emphasizes all in one-ness the other is very much tied to a specific dragon in the end). Yours is definitely the more different take (mine is in many ways thematically a dragon totem shaman replacement... I am fine with edging dts out of its fluff space because dragon totem shaman was ill-designed and Dragon Magic pushed it from blegh to why even bother with the Draconic Aura feat). But yeah it's a natural go to theme; if it had been intentional it would have been a well done take that at how unoriginal I was being though But the mechanics showed otherwise pretty quickly.

[Temotei]

Well, its rather a necessity to make a continues progression until 40, after all many dragon properties don't even begin to kick in until later levels. I can cut the table into two parts, but it will be mere semantics, as the entire "class" will be intended for continiues progression, without deviations or multiclassing what-so-ever. under these assumptions-does it still "fly"?

I'm interested, and I think it's really in the spirit of the contest, so yeah, it should work. Let's see what it looks like in a post, yeah?

Something else I noticed is that the table tools in the forums changed....this means all my older creations are no longer functional. a shame. also means I'll need to rework all my tables for the dragons...

Yeah. Best advice: Use this to replace all of your old tables, then look at the code to learn how to make the new ones yourself. Here is a good resource for getting a start on that, too.

[ezkajii]

as written the tremorsense range doubles before you get tremorsense (was that supposed to be 18th level?).

Oh, whoops. Changed it to a flat 100ft - remains useful even after gaining blindsense, no weird pre-doubling.

+2 X: Maybe Draconic Body and Draconic Spirit as names?

Sounds good to me!

[boomwolf]

Yeah. Best advice: Use this to replace all of your old tables, then look at the code to learn how to make the new ones yourself. Here is a good resource for getting a start on that, too.

This will be mighty handy, given that my current system creates an old style table automatically, and this will allow conversion to new style. its just one step without the need to spend much time to learn the new system. thank you.

[Zaydos]

Madness Log: I did something massively OoC for me. I added Kurtulmak as an option for a (deific) tutelary dragon because he was either made a god by Io him/herself or is Tiamat's son, either of which made him close enough in my opinion but still recognizing any claim of dragonhood from kobolds is not like me. I also recognized the existence of the RoD web enhancement on kobolds, at least in so far as the Kobold domain is concerned. Also added Gnome and Halfling Substitution levels, and some stuff for Half-Dragon DSAs (mostly so you aren't penalized for choosing your ancestor as your tutelary dragon, but also earlier wings). Will take suggestions for races to make substitution levels for, and I am planning a Half-Dragon one but I've got to think of one more level to apply it to.

[Network]

Will take suggestions for races to make substitution levels for, and I am planning a Half-Dragon one but I've got to think of one more level to apply it to.

What about illithid substitution levels? I'm asking half-seriously, I don't really care if you make one or not. But it'd be cool!

[Zaydos]

What about illithid substitution levels? I'm asking half-seriously, I don't really care if you make one or not. But it'd be cool!

I'd need functional and playable illithids first. I mean what are they ECL 16? Ok checking it's 15. They could really use a lower ECL. I could actually see it working, though.

Edit: I mean I have ideas, but anything I made for official illithid would be building off of something horribly unusable... Lv 4 would replace your dragon's normal spell pool with psionic powers as if you had a gem dragon and let you access higher level psionics than usual (specifically 6th or lower, shifting improved pool to 18th). You'd also be getting this at 19th level, and I don't actually trust myself with epic stuff. Ooh, ability to treat brains drawn from creatures with at least 12 Int as items for your hoard with a value of 50 GP per point of Int above 11 the creature had.

[malonkey1]

Do you already have one for Spellscales and I missed it?

[Beelzebub1111]

Warforged. Warforged substitutions for everything! Or maybe the Variant Lizardmen in MM3

[Zaydos]

Do you already have one for Spellscales and I missed it?

No, but I do now. I will admit to having not liked spellscales the best when I first was introduced to them (actually I pretty much write out Races of the Dragon as a whole except for the chapter of feats), but they actually seem like they really fit DSAs so added one.

Warforged. Warforged substitutions for everything! Or maybe the Variant Lizardmen in MM3

Warforged... hmm... Poisondusk? I'll be contemplating both. And assuming LA buyoff is allowed with the latter/lower end of the optimization spectra where their racial abilities stay worthwhile (they are substantially more powerful than say halflings at Lv 1-2 where +3 AC, +2 Con and Str, and a suit of natural weapons all are pretty good, but not worth a level late game). Ooh they have racial claws I've been hoping for an excuse to have someone trade away the claws ability.

[boomwolf]

Well, published the very beggining, just the "classical dragon" table, and some of the pre-crunch fluffy parts.

Now you remain to see what happens when a magicly-impared dragon becomes has affinity towards arcane, a hybrid rust/metal dragon is born, how sneaky are aquatic/dirt dragons, and other bizzare combinations.

Yes, "night fury" is an option. swiftwing with blast breath and force affinity creates pretty much that.

If anyone has ideas to more affinities to add, I'd love to hear. so far my list (not including dual affinity and hybrids, they just make weaker versions of two breaths combined, or alternate two mid-way options)

Fire, cold, lightning, acid, positive, negative, sonic, aquatic, force, poison, arcane, dirt, metal, rust, shadow, dream, chaos, light and crystal

[dragonjek]

Zaydos, I found a dragon you haven't made anything for yet (it isn't with sirpercival's Ideals, either). Dungeon Magazine #110 as the Spinewyrm for Dark Sun. Although it is... weird. One of the least dragon-like of the dragon type, let alone true dragons (but not quite as much as the Li Lung does).

[Zaydos]

Warforged. Warforged substitutions for everything! Or maybe the Variant Lizardmen in MM3

Added Warforged, still thinking about Poisondusk.

Well, published the very beggining, just the "classical dragon" table, and some of the pre-crunch fluffy parts.

Now you remain to see what happens when a magicly-impared dragon becomes has affinity towards arcane, a hybrid rust/metal dragon is born, how sneaky are aquatic/dirt dragons, and other bizzare combinations.

Yes, "night fury" is an option. swiftwing with blast breath and force affinity creates pretty much that.

If anyone has ideas to more affinities to add, I'd love to hear. so far my list (not including dual affinity and hybrids, they just make weaker versions of two breaths combined, or alternate two mid-way options)

Fire, cold, lightning, acid, positive, negative, sonic, aquatic, force, poison, arcane, dirt, metal, rust, shadow, dream, chaos, light and crystal

Nature, Divine, Spirit(?), Incarnum (I mean there's an official one), Law, Good, Evil (planar dragons baby), Social (look at Silver/Song/Steel), just some off the top of my head.

Zaydos, I found a dragon you haven't made anything for yet (it isn't with sirpercival's Ideals, either). Dungeon Magazine #110 as the Spinewyrm for Dark Sun. Although it is... weird. One of the least dragon-like of the dragon type, let alone true dragons (but not quite as much as the Li Lung does).

I skipped it because I only have 2 issues of Dungeon but that sounds like it's in the Dark Sun issue so I might have to hunt down my copy. Sorcerer kings having the physical stats of dragons I'd managed to forget they made a true dragon species for Athas

Edit: Added Spinewyrm for 100% completion sake.

[boomwolf]

Nature...not sure what breath and resistances can be paired with that. I'm under the impression that any acid or aquatic can make itself a "nature" dragon with the proper selection of spells.

Divine is outside what I am aiming for, even though its a nice idea. shadow/light/positive/negative should be able to take the place of divine dragons with their relation to life/undeath and all.

Incarnum would require a whole unique table to himself, he cannot work within exiting breeds. I know its out there, but I cant find a way to work with it without giving myself a headache. the fact I'm hardly familiar with incarnum to begin with is not helping.

Law/Good/Evil, as they might relate to chaos-but the chaos dragon is around the confusion and madness aspect of chaos, not the alignment itself. the planar dragons were never about alignments just random dragons that got from weird places (some were even simple dual elemental dragons). even if I decide to make them all an affinity, while law is something one can dragon with-good and evil are not really. what IS the essence of "good" and "evil" when diluted into a breath weapon?
Law is getting added though. he HAS potential.

Social, is a behavioral type, not an affinity type. silver dragons are just cold/paralysis type dragons who have some special abilities (who I do not favor to make available from birth, these are defiantly "legacy" abilities learned in levels 13,25,27,39 (for the classical, others got them at different levels) (need to find some affinity for paralysis breath though. good thing you made me look at silver)

So, right now the list is expanded to include the new affinities:
Law (not sure what to give it yet...)
Chrono (slowing/hasting breath)
Love (charming breath, silly affinity for a dragon at a glance, but think of the horror of an evil love dragon-his breath make people stop resisting and let him devour them.)
and find somewhere to stick paralysis. (maybe into law? I know I WANT law, but not sure what to give it...)


God I need to actually get around to finish the whole thing rather than have stockpiles of notes x_x I have TESTS coming!

[Zaydos]

Madness Log Update: They're crawling in my mind! Erm... I mean... added Poisondusk Racial Substitution levels and a new feat.

Any more suggestions? I mean maybe I should do Dragonborn sub levels?

[sirpercival]

I think you should do Lifetorn racial sub levels.

[Beelzebub1111]

Any more suggestions? I mean maybe I should do Dragonborn sub levels?

Kalashtar might be good with Gem dragons. I could also see Nezumi.

[Zaydos]

Had to make another new post... I think that's a sign that I have enough racial substitution levels.

I think you should do Lifetorn racial sub levels.

Added.

Kalashtar might be good with Gem dragons. I could also see Nezumi.

Added Kalashtar, did not add Nezumi (at least yet). If I knew Eberron better I'd be tempted to make Eberron, Syberus (I misspelled that), and um the Dragon Below(?) as Tutelary Dragons but I 1) don't know if it fits at all, and 2) don't even know their names properly.

[Network]

If anyone has ideas to more affinities to add, I'd love to hear. so far my list (not including dual affinity and hybrids, they just make weaker versions of two breaths combined, or alternate two mid-way options)

Fire, cold, lightning, acid, positive, negative, sonic, aquatic, force, poison, arcane, dirt, metal, rust, shadow, dream, chaos, light and crystal

What about electricity, if only to complete the energy list? Maybe also affinities related to the environments (desert, forest, underground, etc.) or to unusual dragons (like agile dragons or dragons without a breath weapon, but a poisonous bite).

Incarnum would require a whole unique table to himself, he cannot work within exiting breeds. I know its out there, but I cant find a way to work with it without giving myself a headache. the fact I'm hardly familiar with incarnum to begin with is not helping.

Law/Good/Evil, as they might relate to chaos-but the chaos dragon is around the confusion and madness aspect of chaos, not the alignment itself. the planar dragons were never about alignments just random dragons that got from weird places (some were even simple dual elemental dragons). even if I decide to make them all an affinity, while law is something one can dragon with-good and evil are not really. what IS the essence of "good" and "evil" when diluted into a breath weapon?
Law is getting added though. he HAS potential.

If you can get Magic of Incarnum, there are 2 pages of well-written rules that explain how incarnum works. I'm not sure how your affinities will work mechanically, but I'd be inclined to think an incarnum-themed one wouldn't be too different from the other ones (a breath weapon? Have it damage/drain essentia. Spell-like abilities? There are some in MoI. Class features? Replace them with soulmelds). Of course, if you do not have MoI, you don't have to bother about incarnum.

In D&D, chaos has a clear-cut definition, which is as one element of the alignment system. While it's true that planar dragons are not really about alignment, that doesn't mean you cannot have good or evil dragons. Alignments are an essential part of D&D, aren't they? As for their breath weapon, I could see the good one being a cone of bliss (targets are happy and don't want to fight you) and the evil one being a cone of hopelessness that also heals you a couple hit points (evil is selfish, after all, and benefits from the misfortune of others).

[Beelzebub1111]

Added Kalashtar, did not add Nezumi (at least yet). If I knew Eberron better I'd be tempted to make Eberron, Syberus (I misspelled that), and um the Dragon Below(?) as Tutelary Dragons but I 1) don't know if it fits at all, and 2) don't even know their names properly.

Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber are the creators. Eberron's body formed the earth enveloping Khyber. Siberys became the ring that surrounds the world. Their blood became the dragonshards that make their magical technology possible. It's really more of a creation myth than actual fact. Some dragons see it as a literal truth, Some as an allegory for one thing or another. I'd be happy to teach about the nuances of draconic prophecy, if you so desire.

[malonkey1]

Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber are the creators. Eberron's body formed the earth enveloping Khyber. Siberys became the ring that surrounds the world. Their blood became the dragonshards that make their magical technology possible. It's really more of a creation myth than actual fact. Some dragons see it as a literal truth, Some as an allegory for one thing or another. I'd be happy to teach about the nuances of draconic prophecy, if you so desire.

Have you heard the good news about your Lord and Savior, Siberys?

[boomwolf]

In D&D, chaos has a clear-cut definition, which is as one element of the alignment system. While it's true that planar dragons are not really about alignment, that doesn't mean you cannot have good or evil dragons. Alignments are an essential part of D&D, aren't they? As for their breath weapon, I could see the good one being a cone of bliss (targets are happy and don't want to fight you) and the evil one being a cone of hopelessness that also heals you a couple hit points (evil is selfish, after all, and benefits from the misfortune of others).

Humm...you bring out some nice points. you are like the great wall of china when it comes to bouncing off ideas.
While originally the chaos affinity is working with the same "confusion breath" mechanic of the existing chaos dragon-who is ironically not directly connected to the alignment, I can defiantly attach it to the alignment, and by that start expanding them to other alignments.
Also attaching them to the "mental state" affinities will be interesting.

So "Chaos" has confusion as his thing (as thematic as chaos gets), and "Good" can easily take over "Love"'s place as the charm breath indeed.

This leaves "Evil", who is defiantly some sort of heavy debuffing, maybe taking on the despair spells (-X to attack,saves,skills). this would mean the shadow (negative levels) will have to go, but that's fine, I found him very hard to keep in check anyway (lvl 1 access to negative levels is nuts to balance, even when its just 1 every few rounds.) and he just existed because of there was one in draconomicon.
I actually like it quite alot, gives off the whole "evil is creeping up" theme as with each breath hit your saves drop even further, making you fall deeper and deeper into despair as your situation constantly worse

And then there is Law. what do I do with him? what sort of mental state can I affix to law? I can give him the charm effect as a "command" rather than "make you friendly", but this leaves a needed breath for "good", and I don't want a buff as I want them to be efficient as stand-alone bosses and such.
Finally there is "dream" who is having a sleep effect, another mind-effecting I have around, but I don't really see him directly matching to any alinement. and I REALLY don't want a "neutrality" alignment dragon.
While I COULD combine them, and sleep effects for law is a bit fitting (you play by my rules) I'm having doubts here. what do you think?



Going back to the incarnum for a bit-it really wont mix properly with the current system.
First, draining incarnum is a problem as most people dont have any. making the breath an odd silver bullet that is usually useless and once in a blue moon completely OP (shutting down a character instantly) rather than a force to always be reckoned with, yet can be counter-measured. granting it comes back to the same "buff rather than stand-alone" scenario. I know it EXISTS but I find the mechanic not compelling.
Not to mention the fact it requires a total rework to the leveling system. honestly, I just rather not, it does not feel right. Dragons (in my book) are their source of magic, having "magic type X dragon" feels wrong, that's why I'm not doing divine either.

[Network]

So "Chaos" has confusion as his thing (as thematic as chaos gets), and "Good" can easily take over "Love"'s place as the charm breath indeed.

They don't have to overlap. "Love" could give a charm breath which makes people your friend, while "Good" could have a breath weapon that doubles as this trope.

This leaves "Evil", who is defiantly some sort of heavy debuffing, maybe taking on the despair spells (-X to attack,saves,skills). this would mean the shadow (negative levels) will have to go, but that's fine, I found him very hard to keep in check anyway (lvl 1 access to negative levels is nuts to balance, even when its just 1 every few rounds.) and he just existed because of there was one in draconomicon.
I actually like it quite alot, gives off the whole "evil is creeping up" theme as with each breath hit your saves drop even further, making you fall deeper and deeper into despair as your situation constantly worse

Hopelessness is more easily done by giving morale penalties to everything relevant than by giving negative levels (except maybe on a meta level, but whatever), since it has more to do with a state of being than with loss of experience. Maybe "Shadow" should not get negative levels at all, but something else. I've always felt it was wrong that the shadow dragon exhales negative energy while being a living creature with no connection to the Negative Energy Plane. There are plenty of abilities that are much more "shadowy" than what the shadow dragon got.

And then there is Law. what do I do with him? what sort of mental state can I affix to law? I can give him the charm effect as a "command" rather than "make you friendly", but this leaves a needed breath for "good", and I don't want a buff as I want them to be efficient as stand-alone bosses and such.
Finally there is "dream" who is having a sleep effect, another mind-effecting I have around, but I don't really see him directly matching to any alinement. and I REALLY don't want a "neutrality" alignment dragon.
While I COULD combine them, and sleep effects for law is a bit fitting (you play by my rules) I'm having doubts here. what do you think?

I guess paralysis could work for Law. Keep sleep effect for dream dragons, they don't have to be intertwingled with alignment if you don't want them to (which I don't recommend).

Going back to the incarnum for a bit-it really wont mix properly with the current system.
First, draining incarnum is a problem as most people dont have any. making the breath an odd silver bullet that is usually useless and once in a blue moon completely OP (shutting down a character instantly) rather than a force to always be reckoned with, yet can be counter-measured. granting it comes back to the same "buff rather than stand-alone" scenario. I know it EXISTS but I find the mechanic not compelling.
Not to mention the fact it requires a total rework to the leveling system. honestly, I just rather not, it does not feel right. Dragons (in my book) are their source of magic, having "magic type X dragon" feels wrong, that's why I'm not doing divine either.

No, that's ok, you don't have to do that at all. I'm just saying it's probably doable, Although your last explanation especially strikes the point home. I shall not insist.

[r2d2go]

If anyone cares, I looked over my planned additions and... I'm definitely not finding the motivation to do the "maybe" stuff, and I might have to cut things. The good-aligned version will take a new spell list, which is really just diving dndtools to look for interesting spells... so I'm thinking of cutting that. On the other hand, maneuvers are interesting so I'm probably doing that I might reconsider later, but eh.

[Network]

Finally got the time to post the module list for my Cyber Dragonkin entry. For now I have only done 2 modules (the others being taken from the list of other classes), but I plan on raising that to at least 7, and possibly 14.

If anyone wants to look over the class, they can do it now.

[Vaynor]

Finally finished with my class! It's called Dragon Hunter, but it's actually a lot more general than that. If anyone could look over it and give me their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it!

[ezkajii]

Finally finished with my class! It's called Dragon Hunter, but it's actually a lot more general than that. If anyone could look over it and give me their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it!

Sure! The first thing I noticed is pretty minor, which is when you're describing how items count toward the dragon hunter's hoard, you mention items of 'ascetic value' where I'm sure you mean 'aesthetic value'.
Second thing is the Draconic Transformation essentially eliminates the benefit gained by Draconic Might, thus making it an ability that's only valuable for four levels. The exception is the "negate all incoming damage by 5 regardless of type" ability, which, at 20th level, would be the only logical choice to make use of that ability. You should state whether that reduction of 'incoming damage' stacks with the damage reduction or elemental resistances. I could easily see 'incoming damage' being considered that damage that actually bypassed resistances, just as I could see using the original full damage value.
Does Wealth: Double fighter mean 6d4x20 or 12d4x10 (as fighter starting gold is 6d4x10)?
You mention that the hunter can use Survival to track dragons even without the Track feat, but the Draconic Knowledge ability comes in at 1st level, when he also gains the Track feat for free, making this statement redundant.
Now, I'm not very familiar with ToB material, but doing a quick compare with the crusader and warblade, being that this is a full-BAB class with two good saves and a heaping handful of special abilities I would recommend reducing the number of maneuvers known to 14. I also noticed the 'maneuvers readied' column seems to advance erratically, with two levels at 3, five levels at four, then four levels of each 5, 6, and 7, ending of course with 8 at level 20.

Finally, I'm having some trouble seeing the fluff connection between having a hoard of wealth and the wide variety of magical abilities gained through use of the hoard point system. Clearly the hoard mechanic is at the core of the class but I'm just not seeing the thematic link, i guess.

Other than that the abilities make sense, seems like solid class feature progression. It would make an excellent dip, with the two good saves, no loss of BAB continuation, two bonus feats (even if they aren't the most versatile for dippers), and the ability to change your Desert Wind damage type all at 1st level.