Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

[Vaynor]

Sure! The first thing I noticed is pretty minor, which is when you're describing how items count toward the dragon hunter's hoard, you mention items of 'ascetic value' where I'm sure you mean 'aesthetic value'.

Ah yes, a typo, or possibly my word processor's auto-correct on a typo. Thanks for catching that!

Second thing is the Draconic Transformation essentially eliminates the benefit gained by Draconic Might, thus making it an ability that's only valuable for four levels. The exception is the "negate all incoming damage by 5 regardless of type" ability, which, at 20th level, would be the only logical choice to make use of that ability. You should state whether that reduction of 'incoming damage' stacks with the damage reduction or elemental resistances. I could easily see 'incoming damage' being considered that damage that actually bypassed resistances, just as I could see using the original full damage value.

I'll clear up the misconception. The intention was for it to apply to all types of damage and stack in exchange for the lowered number of damage reduced. The benefit of Draconic Might over Draconic Transformation is that it is usable more than just once per day, but doesn't last as long. So, yes, Draconic Transformation is definitely preferable when you need a major power boost, but Draconic Might allows for more regular and more minor power boosts throughout the day.

Does Wealth: Double fighter mean 6d4x20 or 12d4x10 (as fighter starting gold is 6d4x10)?

This was intended to mean double in the same way that "Double Standard" works with treasure. You would roll twice and add the two results (6d4x10 + 6d4x10).

You mention that the hunter can use Survival to track dragons even without the Track feat, but the Draconic Knowledge ability comes in at 1st level, when he also gains the Track feat for free, making this statement redundant.

I decided to give them Track at the last minute as I thought it fit the flavor and I wanted them to have more abilities that didn't rely on their targets being dragons, but I forgot about that redundancy. I'll fix that.

Now, I'm not very familiar with ToB material, but doing a quick compare with the crusader and warblade, being that this is a full-BAB class with two good saves and a heaping handful of special abilities I would recommend reducing the number of maneuvers known to 14. I also noticed the 'maneuvers readied' column seems to advance erratically, with two levels at 3, five levels at four, then four levels of each 5, 6, and 7, ending of course with 8 at level 20.

The main difference between this class and a warblade is that their maneuvers are more difficult to recover. A warblade can recover all of their maneuvers with a single swift action, which makes up for them not knowing as many or being able to ready as many. The dragon hunter is forced to wait 1d4 rounds (this is based on a dragon's breath weapon ability) in order for their maneuvers to recover. The issue with the irregular progression is I decided on the number of maneuvers/stances I wanted them to know/ready and forced the progression to fit that. I'll probably change the progression to be more natural.

Finally, I'm having some trouble seeing the fluff connection between having a hoard of wealth and the wide variety of magical abilities gained through use of the hoard point system. Clearly the hoard mechanic is at the core of the class but I'm just not seeing the thematic link, i guess.

It was meant to be more that the dragon hunter perceives a dragon's hoard as being his source of power, and through his actions attaches much of his power to his own personal hoard. It's meant to be an almost psychological thing; the dragon hunter bases his worth on the value of his hoard and that greed and pursuit of power fuels his abilities. However, I see now that you mention it that I did not make this clear in the text. I'll clear this up.

Edit: I added more details, so hopefully it's more clear now. I also added penalties for losing the hoard.

Other than that the abilities make sense, seems like solid class feature progression. It would make an excellent dip, with the two good saves, no loss of BAB continuation, two bonus feats (even if they aren't the most versatile for dippers), and the ability to change your Desert Wind damage type all at 1st level.

The Desert Wind damage type change would only apply to maneuvers gained from this class. I did not state this explicitly, so I'll add that.


Do you think it's at a good power level overall? Before I added in hoard points, I was considering energy resistance or bonus feats, but I decided to go with something that allowed for more versatility than just energy resistance. I'm still a bit worried that they might suffer from a lack of bonus feats as a martial class.

Thank you for your help!

[Zaydos]

The main difference between this class and a warblade is that their maneuvers are more difficult to recover. A warblade can recover all of their maneuvers with a single swift action, which makes up for them not knowing as many or being able to ready as many. The dragon hunter is forced to wait 1d4 rounds (this is based on a dragon's breath weapon ability) in order for their maneuvers to recover. The issue with the irregular progression is I decided on the number of maneuvers/stances I wanted them to know/ready and forced the progression to fit that. I'll probably change the progression to be more natural.

Their recovery isn't worse though. 1d4 rounds means on average they will be recovering a maneuver 0.5 rounds later than a warblade who spends their turn to recover maneuvers (note also a warblade cannot use maneuvers the round they recover maneuvers), and if they're using maneuvers 2 a round they will never run out while a warblade will have to recover maneuvers every 4th round. Their recovery is most comparable to a Crusader's except their is actually going to be better baring shenanigans like Idiot Crusader. With a bit of luck they could passively recover the same maneuver to spam it every round.

If you dropped their maneuvers known/readied down to a warblade's progression they be fairly comparable to warblade with a slight advantage, assuming equal power in maneuvers/disciplines. This is actually a rather noticeable assumption since I only glanced over the homebrew disciplines linked but... well one pretty much only works on breath weapons so without one of those I don't see how it'll be much of a problem and it can mostly be discounted. The other ranged from having effects which were vaguely written (does knocking something up also knock it prone? If yes, why is a 1st level maneuver reliably dealing 3+d6 damage and knocking something prone with a touch attack?) to just plain overpowered (the omnislash being a significantly better version of Time Stands Still which is substantially more powerful than 6 of the other 8 9th level maneuvers and possibly the flat best) and I'd suggest sticking with Tiger Claw over it if you want to emphasize the jumping up to fight things on the wing.

[Vaynor]

Do you think it would be better if I made it a 1d6 recovery, or simply reduced the maneuver rates? I like having them with access to more maneuvers than a warblade. I do want them to be balanced though, and I'm looking to make them around the same power level as other maneuver classes. Although, I think the main issue is that I did the maneuver portion of the class before anything else and wasn't planning on adding as many special abilities as I did. I like them having a more random recovery method, but not quite as random as a crusader's.

I added the breath weapon discipline because I figured there might be a lot of dragon hunters that would gain a breath weapon, even though I elected to not grant them one through the class. The homebrew discipline fits the flavor I was going for pretty perfectly, but it may be a bit too overpowered as you say. I'll give it a bit more thought and go over the discipline in a bit more detail and try to figure out what to do.

[ezkajii]

Do you think it's at a good power level overall? Before I added in hoard points, I was considering energy resistance or bonus feats, but I decided to go with something that allowed for more versatility than just energy resistance. I'm still a bit worried that they might suffer from a lack of bonus feats as a martial class.

Yes, I'd say overall a well-balanced class, with a solid martial base and plenty of dragon flavor on top of it, I think it would fit well into any standard adventuring party. With regard to versatility, I do think that perhaps having just one or two more options to spend hoard points on might open it up a little bit more, it feels a bit narrow right now with regard to the hoard point options. But even as is it's plenty enjoyable I would think.

[Zaydos]

Do you think it would be better if I made it a 1d6 recovery, or simply reduced the maneuver rates? I like having them with access to more maneuvers than a warblade. I do want them to be balanced though, and I'm looking to make them around the same power level as other maneuver classes. Although, I think the main issue is that I did the maneuver portion of the class before anything else and wasn't planning on adding as many special abilities as I did. I like them having a more random recovery method, but not quite as random as a crusader's.

If you're balancing it as worse than warblade's go with 1d4+1. That way once you use a maneuver you're out of it at least as long as a warblade that is dedicated to getting it back. Even then I'd say you might want to reduce the number they get a bit.

[Vaynor]

Ok, making it 1d4+1 seems like a good option. I'll probably scale their maneuvers back to around 16 from 18, as well.

Any ideas for other uses of hoard points?

[ezkajii]

Any ideas for other uses of hoard points?

Maybe allow hoard points to fuel additional uses of Track Property, much like is done with Cache of Knowledge later? And then, perhaps a reduced version of Draconic Might that comes online at an earlier level. Or use a hoard point to gain use of any Fighter Bonus Feat for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 class levels, or something.


_{Note to self: No homebrewing past midnight.}

[dragonjek]

I'm not going to be able to finish mine before the contest ends. I spent too much time on the minutia, and somehow never got around to writing up the dragon embodiments that are the most important part of the class. Two days just isn't enough.

I'll just post it normally when I finish, then. I can put back in some of the stuff I had cut out to save time.

[Network]

Turns out I managed to make a fully playable entry despite being busy for most of the week. All comments on my cyber dragonkin class are welcome. I won't have the time to make adjustment to the class before the contest is over, but at least I'll know what people think of it.

[sirpercival]

CRAP when does this end? I have to write fluff... can we push it a couple days? I've been so frickin' busy...

[Temotei]

CRAP when does this end? I have to write fluff... can we push it a couple days? I've been so frickin' busy...

Yeah, I forgot it ended last night. Derp.

But sure, let's extend it to October 7th. Hoping the peeps who couldn't finish are able to with the extra time.

[MrNobody]

Extra time to double-triple check grammar and spellig

What about next contest's subject? It will be dungeons as it was said while discussing for the current one or there are other ideas to consider?

[Zaydos]

Other possibilities:
Reality Warping (might have 2 half finished classes that fall under this)
Other Table Top Games (might have 1 half finished class that falls under this)
Video Games
Codes (Honor? Cryptography? This isn't specified on purpose isn't it?)
Planes
Gods
Fiends
I could list more ideas if pressed.

[MrNobody]

Wow, cool! Can't wait to see what it will be! I have a nice idea for the Dungeon thing and also one for the tabletop games, reality warping. .. nothing written yet, but living in my head!

[dragonjek]

Contest ideas...

How about something along the lines of "the normal, done abnormally?"
Like making a fire mage who makes fire sentient and converses with it to learn the elemental wisdom of flames, or a warrior who cuts concepts rather than flesh. A thief who steals words, a plant specialist growing a symbiotic tree in his own torso, a furious angry man who channels his anger into inanimate objects to make them hop up and go kill things, a monk who meditated for so long their limbs atrophied and they have to float around by using enlightenment in some interesting explained way.
Stuff like that.

Or maybe "something boring, done awesomely?"
A potter so devoted to his craft it becomes supernatural and his pots begin to hold things from different planes of existence, a janitor who scrubs away the stain of evil, a con artist who scams reality into doing what he wants it to, a chef with magic food, a politician who can literally lie things into existence, a lawyer specializing in deals with fiends, a farmer who can command plants and animals to do his bidding and who can smite people with a hoe, a magic-focused spellcaster who never learns anything in his entire class progression of higher level than cantrips, a cheesemaker who shapes a piece of the moon for his powers, or an innkeeper who can summon a magical, armed, defended inn from which he can attack people.

Or how about "the nonsensical or oxymoronic?"
A priest of athiesm. A godling of atheism. A conjuror who summons himself (not from the future, past, or alternative timeline, but summons the actual him who is casting the summoning spell), or an intelligent idiot who psionically forces his stupidity onto other people. A class that creates and wields Happy Fun Balls, a class that uses fire to freeze you, someone who can travel anywhere by becoming perfectly still for one instant, someone who becomes 2-dimensional, or a base class that makes flower petals explosive? A Stormtrooper who actually hits things?

Maybe a theme of cooperation?
Either the class is based on cooperating with others, everyone makes two classes that are suppose to have synchronicity with one another, or we are supposed to work with someone to create a single class (or make two classes separately, designed to work together).

Invertebrates.

Beholders.

A class that is a student.

Books, but cannot be a spellcaster.

A class wielding magic, but not casting spells.

A class based on a single feat or chain of feats, and then doing something absolutely incredible with it to stretch it way beyond what it was originally meant to do.

A theme of "story theme."

A tautological theme that is tautological.

The assholish things people who play videogames online do.

A videogame made before the turn of the millennium.

A theme of "losing your humanity".

A class based off the least wanted monsters in the Monster Manuals.

[Xhosant]

Books, but cannot be a spellcaster.

Maka chop?

[Network]

A class based on a single feat or chain of feats, and then doing something absolutely incredible with it to stretch it way beyond what it was originally meant to do.

Such a class is either a fighter fix, either the fighter class itself with a restructuration of the feat tree. Either way, it wouldn't make for an original contest.

A theme of "losing your humanity".

A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.

[malonkey1]

A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.

I'm game for that idea. It might give people cause to use less-used existing rules, like the Taint rules.

[Zaydos]

I'm game for that idea. It might give people cause to use less-used existing rules, like the Taint rules.

Taint rules are annoying to use, however, due to the no save daze if you take more depravity than your Wis modifier from a single source (you do get a save, daze is the success, stun on failure) and a slightly less crippling effect with corruption.

[dragonjek]

Such a class is either a fighter fix, either the fighter class itself with a restructuration of the feat tree. Either way, it wouldn't make for an original contest.

I think the ability to use Power Attack to damage someone's soul, use Run to cross planes, literally destroying the concept of sound within a limited area with a Silent Spell, using the Survivalist feat to fend off death when at -100 hp, or instantly covering all solid surfaces in an area with runes as you spontaneously coat every surface with scroll-runes to cast ten spells at the same time would be an entirely different set of concepts than a fighter fix.

Two-Weapon Fighting that allowed you to actually make your weapons go themselves fight through the air, Skill Focus (Craft (blacksmithing)) to make a swift action to forge a sword, using the Dodge feat to avoid getting hit by the rain, making a tornado with Whirlwind Attack, shooting an arrow across the planet with Far Shot to hit your enemy in the back of the head, Diehard to stay alive after your head's been cleaved off with a vorpal weapon, etc.

Using Create Water to make water inside someone's body, using Animate Rope and making it infinitely extend until it grapples everyone in the worm, casting Animate Dead on a living person's dead cells and the food they ate, using Haste on someone's heart but not the rest of them, shoot someone with Call Lightning to give them superpowers, use Mage Hand to choke people, turn Ray of Frost into Yamato Cannon of Frost, using Stone Shape to turn stone into a gas for the duration of the spell, using Summon Monster to pull someone in the combat to your location (but inside-out), using Light to create AI light-constructs that can scout or shoot laser beams for you, using Feather Fall to launch a storm of razor-sharp metal feathers at someone, etc.

None of this is remotely something a fighter fix would do, nor are they appropriate to feat trees.
(note that I just threw those ideas out there without thought to balance or sanity. I have no intention of actually doing most of these).

A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.

It wasn't a WoD reference, but such a class would fit the theme, yeah. It also works on a more literal scale--like the some zombie class, the Ozodrin, or the Alienist. That aside, watching another character descend into madness (or viewing an NPC to the same) is something that can happen in any game, not just WoD.

[Beelzebub1111]

A contest for WoD-inspired classes? Not sure I'd like it, D&D and WoD have very different concepts of morality. I'm not sure extraplanar outsiders have anything similar to an humanity, for example.

Not to be a broken record, but that would fit into a "Tabletop Games" category. Hint Hint.

[Xhosant]

A theme of "losing your humanity".

Dark Souls?

[Temotei]

Hey, guys, here we are. Sorry for the short delay; I have an exam today and I forgot to post.

[Zaydos]

Hey, guys, here we are. Sorry for the short delay; I have an exam today and I forgot to post.

Seeing that table I really went overboard.

[Temotei]

Seeing that table I really went overboard.

My phalanges are weeping.

[Carl]

Sorry about the class skills Temotei i got busy IRL and stopped checking this thread. If i do anything like that in future, shoot me a PM a week or so before contest finish, i cna throw an edit in there if you want with a really short list if you really want.

Sorry .

[sirpercival]

even with an extra week i didn't have time to do the fluff...

[Temotei]

Sorry about the class skills Temotei i got busy IRL and stopped checking this thread. If i do anything like that in future, shoot me a PM a week or so before contest finish, i cna throw an edit in there if you want with a really short list if you really want.

Sorry .

Hey, man, it's no trouble. I consider it finished because class skills are possibly the easiest part of making a class and it's pretty easy to guess what they would be.

even with an extra week i didn't have time to do the fluff...

Yeeaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Yeah.

Pls sirp

[Carl]

Cheers, tbh i find class skills the hardest part, it's why i hadn't done them yet. then again me and the skills system don;t get along anyway .

[Temotei]

Cheers, tbh i find class skills the hardest part, it's why i hadn't done them yet. then again me and the skills system don;t get along anyway .

I'd assume 4 + Int skill points, maybe 2 + Int if you're into that.

Obviously Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Spellcraft.

Probably Heal, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spot.

Maybe Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perform, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device.