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Thread: Range Time

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    Default Re: Range Time

    Mastery is going to take a while, yes. The benefit of a sling is that most people have already practiced it through other hobbies, and it's cheap and portable.

    I haven't hunted with a sling though. My anecdotes all come from people for whom slinging is a cultural touchstone and part of their livelihood. I can't even guess at effectiveness of any individual in specific circumstances. I can only say "after a day, you can probably hit a target at your preferred range", which is where most folks are at with everything but fire arms.


    Which are really cool by the way! I went looking for how an automatic weapon works because I had forgotten in the last decade, and lo and behold YouTube is a thing! That was much more fun than just reading poor descriptions. Was the final straw for my mate to convince me to look into being a gun mechanic.


    Anders: I mostly agree. I just value being a good person over not. Cellular metabolism is not important enough to me that I would prioritize it over being a creature deserving of continued cellular metabolism, and we know that's a can of worms. I'll just take comfort in knowing that our ends are similar enough we could work together even if the reasons are different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Anders: I mostly agree. I just value being a good person over not. Cellular metabolism is not important enough to me that I would prioritize it over being a creature deserving of continued cellular metabolism, and we know that's a can of worms. I'll just take comfort in knowing that our ends are similar enough we could work together even if the reasons are different.
    Well, there are ways around the dilemma (it's thus not strictly a dilemma). One is to require expensive shows of trust. Anyone can say "I trust you, trust me", but actually dropping your weapon and walking unarmed into the enemy camp... that requires either stupidity or trust. Or both. Another one is to cultivate a fierce code of vengeance, and the means to back it up - if people know you'll butcher them and hang their organs from a tree merely for spitting in the direction of your shadow... they'll think twice before two-timing you. Not surprisingly, such codes are found all over the world (I believe the Southern states in the U.S.A. have one).

    But I should probably leave you to your gun talk, as I know nearly nothing of them outside of what's contained in GURPS High-Tech...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    Well, there are ways around the dilemma (it's thus not strictly a dilemma). One is to require expensive shows of trust. Anyone can say "I trust you, trust me", but actually dropping your weapon and walking unarmed into the enemy camp... that requires either stupidity or trust. Or both. Another one is to cultivate a fierce code of vengeance, and the means to back it up - if people know you'll butcher them and hang their organs from a tree merely for spitting in the direction of your shadow... they'll think twice before two-timing you. Not surprisingly, such codes are found all over the world (I believe the Southern states in the U.S.A. have one).
    It has been said that everyone in the American South is so polite because almost everyone carries a gun...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    That distance is from pure distance shooting. The target was the ground, the goal was maximum distance, and a really high arc was used. If one is comparing to a rifle, the comparison that should be used is where the rifle is aimed up at close to a 45 degree angle (air resistance probably means a lower one is needed) and the distance of the final landing point is used as the range.

    Just getting that distance is pretty impressive, even 600 feet is pretty good - obviously ancient military slingers were better here and likely wouldn't be impressed - but there's no real aiming at anywhere near that distance. Plus, precise aiming isn't happening in the first place without lots of practice.
    I was just looking at maximum distance, not maximum effective distance, not quite the same thing. If your throwing a rock that far, you’re probably lobbing it in on top of them anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Which are really cool by the way! I went looking for how an automatic weapon works because I had forgotten in the last decade, and lo and behold YouTube is a thing! That was much more fun than just reading poor descriptions. Was the final straw for my mate to convince me to look into being a gun mechanic.
    it's called a Gunsmith.
    You should totally check out high speed footage of guns being shot. It’s both beautiful and fascinating . (that last one might be a little gruesome. and a warning on how not to hold a high caliber revolver)
    Last edited by TheThan; 2014-10-27 at 01:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    I was just looking at maximum distance, not maximum effective distance, not quite the same thing. If your throwing a rock that far, you’re probably lobbing it in on top of them anyway.
    Exactly, and I was just making that clear for the rest of the thread.
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    So this is the go to thread (such that there is) for survival stuff and ammo talk. So I had an idle thought for the whole get out of dodge thing; wouldn't peanut butter and multivitamins cover your basic nutrition needs in a light load? Peanut butter (or a modified version thereof) is what they give to people who are on the verge of dying from malnutrition, because of the ease of digestion and the calorie density. You still need biomass but as a "do not die of privation within a week" thing it sounds workable.


    Also in a soft argument with a friend; how difficult is it for y'all to find .22 ammo?

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    Impossible for rimfire ammo. Online only, and pay more for shipping than the ammo costs. Centerfire calibers have (almost) returned to normal, when it comes to availability and prices.

    PB is good for getting home calories, but I'm not big on the "bug-out" culture. For me, a bag is to get home, where you have better supplies stashed.
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    Same here
    And 22 ammo is still hard to find where I live as well.


    I'm no doctor so I'm not keen on knowing everything the body ought to have to keep healthy but from what I’ve learned the human body runs off of three things:
    Protein, carbohydrates and fat.

    So punching peanut butter into Wikipedia it says that peanut butter provides fat (lots of hard to pronounce kinds), protein, vitamin B3, magnesium, folate, dietary fiber, resveratrol arginine and p-coumaric acid.

    So it provides two of the three fuels you run on. So it might be pretty decent. I would consider some sort of homemade granola bars with peanuts mixed in. I’m willing to bet someone could come up with a delicious tasting, healthy and fuel providing bar (without all those nasty preservatives store bought stuff has in it) if they’re willing to do more than the 2 minutes of research I just did and experiment a little bit.

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    Take 3 cups of almonds and 1 cup of honey. Blend them together in a food processor, or use a mortar and pestle (processor is better by far). Scoop it into a sturdy container. Keeps forever (literally years), and if it gets hard can be reconstituted with some water.
    Last edited by Crow; 2014-11-15 at 06:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthpawSoldier View Post
    Impossible for rimfire ammo. Online only, and pay more for shipping than the ammo costs. Centerfire calibers have (almost) returned to normal, when it comes to availability and prices.
    Interesting. I'm glad center fire is getting easier to find.

    PB is good for getting home calories, but I'm not big on the "bug-out" culture. For me, a bag is to get home, where you have better supplies stashed.
    Oh, it's all just grown up Roleplaying. It's like the LARP version of fantasy football; societally acceptable form of role play, but still weird.

    There's also the goal factor. I cannot run a decent time on a mile. I have chased down and caught speeding trucks however. The difference was in having a goal I was committed to. Think of survival prep as an arbitrary reason to get in shape and get your life together. Some people do it for vanity. Some for OCD. Some so they will survive the coming apocalypse.

    I've always fantasized about traipsing off to live in the mountains. "Bug out" stuff is just playing on that romanticized notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    I'm no doctor so I'm not keen on knowing everything the body ought to have to keep healthy but from what I’ve learned the human body runs off of three things:
    Protein, carbohydrates and fat.
    There's a lot more to it than that. Survive and thrive are not the same, and that's why I argue that caffeine is a diuretic – yes, the water in the coffee itself will counteract the immediate effects, but the diuretic effect lasts hours and most people are dehydrated routinely anyway.

    You run off of those three, but you repair yourself and maintain the systems using the micronutrients. Vitamins, enzymes, minerals, water are all vital, as are immediate, non/necessary needs. It's much easier to eat a small, technically healthy meal and then fill up with half a candy bar than to eat a whole healthy meal that doesn't satisfy your mental desire for food. Being distracted makes survival harder, and being hungry even though you're stuffed on calories and vitamins sucks.

    Peanut butter has a filling effect and a satisfying effect. You can get needed biomass elsewhere but maintain your bare minimum with those two items. Bare minimum isn't a goal you want to meet though, it's a goal you want to exceed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Take 3 cups of almonds and 1 cup of honey. Blend them together in a food processor, or use a mortar and pestle (processor is better by far). Scoop it into a sturdy container. Keeps forever (literally years), and if it gets hard can be reconstituted with some water.
    Ooh, I've heard this before. I'll have to remember it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Also in a soft argument with a friend; how difficult is it for y'all to find .22 ammo?
    Nearly impossible to find it in the stores more than an hour after the delivery. I've been able to order a couple boxes of .22 online for relatively inexpensive (10 cents/round) but nothing locally.
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    Aye, and you're in my state too.

    I've actually been hired by a friend as a "mule", since I'm available when he's working, to pool out money and camp out on ammo delivery day.

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    Yeah, the last time I was able to buy .22 in a store was when I was with my grandfather in Chico a few months ago. We went to the Sportsman's Warehouse about 45 minutes early, and we were still several dozen people back in line, and when I got to the counter I got the last box of 300 in the delivery. The person behind me was none to pleased

    Anyone have any experience with the Ruger LCRx? I'm thinking about getting one as a concealed carry, but wanted to check people's opinions of it first.
    Last edited by Hbgplayer; 2014-11-17 at 03:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    There's also the goal factor. I cannot run a decent time on a mile. I have chased down and caught speeding trucks however. The difference was in having a goal I was committed to. Think of survival prep as an arbitrary reason to get in shape and get your life together. Some people do it for vanity. Some for OCD. Some so they will survive the coming apocalypse.

    I've always fantasized about traipsing off to live in the mountains. "Bug out" stuff is just playing on that romanticized notion.
    There are other legitimate reasons, the most obvious one is to be more self reliant. The USA was formed by independent, free thinking, self reliant people. That spirit is still alive in some people; so it makes sense that they would have a desire to live in a way that sort of encapsulates independence, free thinking, freedom and self reliance.

    Others are just afraid that something bad will happen and refuse to be a victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    here's a lot more to it than that. Survive and thrive are not the same, and that's why I argue that caffeine is a diuretic – yes, the water in the coffee itself will counteract the immediate effects, but the diuretic effect lasts hours and most people are dehydrated routinely anyway.

    You run off of those three, but you repair yourself and maintain the systems using the micronutrients. Vitamins, enzymes, minerals, water are all vital, as are immediate, non/necessary needs. It's much easier to eat a small, technically healthy meal and then fill up with half a candy bar than to eat a whole healthy meal that doesn't satisfy your mental desire for food. Being distracted makes survival harder, and being hungry even though you're stuffed on calories and vitamins sucks.

    Peanut butter has a filling effect and a satisfying effect. You can get needed biomass elsewhere but maintain your bare minimum with those two items. Bare minimum isn't a goal you want to meet though, it's a goal you want to exceed.
    No argument from me there. Human fuel may keep you going, but it won’t necessarily keep you healthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hbgplayer View Post
    Yeah, the last time I was able to buy .22 in a store was when I was with my grandfather in Chico a few months ago. We went to the Sportsman's Warehouse about 45 minutes early, and we were still several dozen people back in line, and when I got to the counter I got the last box of 300 in the delivery. The person behind me was none to pleased

    Anyone have any experience with the Ruger LCRx? I'm thinking about getting one as a concealed carry, but wanted to check people's opinions of it first.
    Nope. But with the potential for the recent court rulings here in CA, it might get easier for people to obtain CCWs. Which I honestly think is a good thing.

    With all the crap going on with the Ferguson case, ammo may very well become quite scarce again… and that’s assuming everything stays relatively calm. This has the potential to spiral out of control and into civil war. (and that’s all I’m going to say on the matter since it’s political. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    Nope. But with the potential for the recent court rulings here in CA, it might get easier for people to obtain CCWs. Which I honestly think is a good thing.
    Yep, I'm just waiting for the sheriff in my county to loosen the requirements, which he did for the two weeks in February between that decision and Harris appealing it.
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    I’m fortunate enough to live in a county with a pro-CCW sheriff, so getting one is mostly a matter of money.

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    Yeah, he's better than most of the Bay Area, and I'll leave it at that.
    Last edited by Hbgplayer; 2014-11-17 at 09:58 PM.
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    It’s funny; people think you can’t own guns in California. Which isn’t true (for now at least). It’s just a hassle. Last firearm I bought I had to wait 15 days to get it (and it was a rifle not a hand gun), and when I finally was able to pick it up, the clerk had to escort me out the door before handing it over to me. That’s a bit demeaning really and a total hassle.

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    When I got my pistol last year it was a 10-day waiting period, most of which I spent hunting, so it wasn't too bad.

    My biggest problem is trying to find a safe place to shoot. The closest range to me is about 45 minutes away and they want $50 per day, and don't have any facilities and they only have a rifle range. There's another range on BLM land about an hour north, but it is unregulated and many shady characters that visit it, often while drinking.
    One time I was there with my dad when a group of people showed up while he was down range setting up a target. While he was there, this group of...fools...started shooting. When we yelled at then they just blew it off saying "Don't worry man, we're not aiming at you"
    Needless to say we weren't very happy and we cut the day short.
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    Does anyone know the reason for this big difference in supply and demand regarding ammunition?


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    New factory equipment (and space to run it in) is an expensive, long-term capital investment. Since 2007 everyone's been thinking that the spike in demand is only temporary...and maybe in 2 more years, when we have another election and we're no longer trying to supply a couple of start-up armies, that will be the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    Nope. But with the potential for the recent court rulings here in CA, it might get easier for people to obtain CCWs. Which I honestly think is a good thing.
    I'm really excited about the ruling, as it affects Hawai'i's insane laws as well. Not quite as bad as New York or California in some ways, but still onerous.

    As far as the shortage is concerned; the profit margin just isn't there for .22.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Does anyone know the reason for this big difference in supply and demand regarding ammunition?
    A lot of people are fearful of something bad happening. Think Economic collapse, terror, natural disasters, pandemics, social anarchy that sort of stuff. Basically a W.R.O.L. (Without rule of Law) scenario in which they believe they will basically be on their own since the government has clearly broken down or is dealing with more important matters than protecting it's citizens.

    So people have been hoarding ammunition in an attempt to prepare for the worst case scenario. Ammunition is fairly paramount, as it’s necessary to operate firearms which you need to protect yourself and your “tribe” (to borrow a phrase from Cody Lundin), from those that would try to steal what you have or cause you and your people harm.

    .22 LR ammo was inexpensive, easy to get, light (you can carry much more ammo for the same weight as other ammo), and is easy for people of small size or that are unfamiliar with guns to shoot without any difficulty. Basically it’s a great caliber for A LOT of different applications so people have been stocking up on it just in case.

    I‘ve also heard rumors that the government ( Law enforcement agencies as well as FEMA) has been hoarding it as well. I’ve also heard that ammunition companies are producing it non-stop and it still just can’t stay on the shelves. I have no idea how true these are, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthpawSoldier View Post
    I'm really excited about the ruling, as it affects Hawai'i's insane laws as well. Not quite as bad as New York or California in some ways, but still onerous.

    As far as the shortage is concerned; the profit margin just isn't there for .22.
    That’s good to hear

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    I‘ve also heard rumors that the government ( Law enforcement agencies as well as FEMA) has been hoarding it as well. I’ve also heard that ammunition companies are producing it non-stop and it still just can’t stay on the shelves. I have no idea how true these are, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were.
    I've heard the same thing, and it really isn't true, at least on the local level. Many police departments are have just as hard of a time as anyone else getting enough ammunition to keep up with training requirements, and many have limited officers to less than 100 rounds/month.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbgplayer View Post
    I've heard the same thing, and it really isn't true, at least on the local level. Many police departments are have just as hard of a time as anyone else getting enough ammunition to keep up with training requirements, and many have limited officers to less than 100 rounds/month.
    Here's a couple of hypotheses from this article I found after I googled why .22 ammo was so rare, based on your discussions.

    “Conspiracy theories are just that, and I haven’t found even a smidgen of truth in any of them,” commented Mike Bazinet, Public Affairs Director for the National Shooting Sports Foundation. “This is a consumer-driven shortage. Gun sales have been up for five years in a row, with the most popular caliber being .22. Sales in 2014 continue at a high pace, higher than 2012, but not as high as the record in 2013.”

    A spokesperson for Federal Premium Ammunition, the largest manufacturer of ammunition in the United States, noted that, “In addition to all of the new shooters, they now have kits to convert other caliber firearms to .22 long rifle. We didn’t have those five years ago.”

    This spokesperson added that ammunition purchased by the federal government makes up only a small percentage of Federal’s total sales. The amount purchased by Homeland Security has actually decreased during the past several years. Federal has not raised its .22 ammo prices in response to the shortage.

    Josh Wilson, manager of “The Lodge,” at State College Dick’s, had this to say. “I think that there is a direct correlation between the rise in cost of ammunition for other calibers and the demand for the less expensive .22 caliber. Additional factors include the new Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 rifle and the continued popularity of the Ruger 10-22. These rifles can be fitted with 25-round clips and you can burn through a lot of rounds in a hurry.”
    http://www.centredaily.com/2014/06/2...tage.html?rh=1
    Last edited by Joran; 2014-11-18 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    I‘ve also heard rumors that the government ( Law enforcement agencies as well as FEMA) has been hoarding it as well. I’ve also heard that ammunition companies are producing it non-stop and it still just can’t stay on the shelves. I have no idea how true these are, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were.
    Read more about that here. The rumor was originally about .357 ammo, which wouldn't be of much use for a .22 gun. I think, I'm not an expert in guns and ammo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    There are other legitimate reasons, the most obvious one is to be more self reliant. The USA was formed by independent, free thinking, self reliant people. That spirit is still alive in some people; so it makes sense that they would have a desire to live in a way that sort of encapsulates independence, free thinking, freedom and self reliance.

    Others are just afraid that something bad will happen and refuse to be a victim.
    I don't see a difference between these two.

    If you understand that some people are just like that, whether ornery or independent, why the derision for the "big out lifestyle"?

    No argument from me there. Human fuel may keep you going, but it won’t necessarily keep you healthy.
    Wish I was that quick a study. Lotta pain went into learning this.

    [wuote]
    With all the crap going on with the Ferguson case, ammo may very well become quite scarce again… and that’s assuming everything stays relatively calm. This has the potential to spiral out of control and into civil wa. (and that’s all I’m going to say on the matter since it’s political. )[/QUOTE]

    While it's my pet paranoid scenario, let's leave this one alone. Powder keg of forum rules like nopony's business.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    It’s funny; people think you can’t own guns in California. Which isn’t true (for now at least). It’s just a hassle. Last firearm I bought I had to wait 15 days to get it (and it was a rifle not a hand gun), and when I finally was able to pick it up, the clerk had to escort me out the door before handing it over to me. That’s a bit demeaning really and a total hassle.
    Huh, that's a hassle indeed. Friend of mine just found a few private sellers and got ownership transfered. Worked out better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Does anyone know the reason for this big difference in supply and demand regarding ammunition?
    Entrepreneurial spirit. Some folks buy it wholesale in bulk and sell it online at huge markup. This further fuels the idea that there's a shortage so you need to pay premium, creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

    Couple with rimfire being dang near impossible to fill yourself, and there ya go. .22 is rare because people are jerks.

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    Default Re: Range Time

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Couple with rimfire being dang near impossible to fill yourself, and there ya go. .22 is rare because people are jerks.
    Read more about it here. People are preparing for the giant confrontation with the government that they feel will come in a few years, and are stockpiling ammo. I wouldn't call them 'jerks' as much as 'idiots', but YMMV.
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    Oooh, and that's a bad miss.

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    Oh good gosh private selling is worse.

    To do it legally, you have to meet the person your selling to, or buying from face to face, hand the weapon in question over to an authorized gun dealer (some places don't do private sales), pay the man ( the gun dealer takes a percentage too), wait 15 days, then you can get your gun.
    So if you live in say San Francisco, and you try to sell your gun to someone in say Los Angeles. That’s an even greater hassle because of the distances involved in getting to each other for that face to face meeting.
    unless you're doing it under the table that is. (shame on you!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hbgplayer View Post
    I've heard the same thing, and it really isn't true, at least on the local level. Many police departments are have just as hard of a time as anyone else getting enough ammunition to keep up with training requirements, and many have limited officers to less than 100 rounds/month.
    Like I said, rumors. I try not to pay attention to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I don't see a difference between these two.

    If you understand that some people are just like that, whether ornery or independent, why the derision for the "big out lifestyle"?
    Well a lot of difference is in the perspective. Some are perfectly happy living on the grid; but are afraid of disaster. Others choose to move out to the country and live off grid (note off grid does not mean no electricity or running water) and grow a lot of their own food and be much less dependent on the grid and infrastructure we have in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Wish I was that quick a study. Lotta pain went into learning this.
    I learned through my own experiences to study up on something before investing heavily in it (or trying to pick up a new skill). Besides part of bushcraft/survival/prepping is acquiring knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    Read more about it here. People are preparing for the giant confrontation with the government that they feel will come in a few years, and are stockpiling ammo. I wouldn't call them 'jerks' as much as 'idiots', but YMMV.
    Causing a panic to benefit from panic is Jerk, not Idiot. *shrug*

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