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Thread: Range Time

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    I've never had much luck finding the books I want to read in bookstores, unless they are from a currently-published semi-popular author (ie, David Weber). Most good science fiction is easier to find in used bookstores, and as for the rest? Amazon.

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    Hmm ... WRT to the knife discussion this police training film is relevant

    Short form :Fear the knife. "Bringing a knife to a gun fight" is only a losing proposition at distances greater than 20 feet ( 6.1 meters) .

    What this has convinced me of is that if I really want to get serious about self defense, I'm going to need martial arts training to defend against a knife attacker if I can't just run away ; on the average city street it is highly unlikely I'd have the distance I'd need to draw and fire on an attacker threatening me. Inside my own home, of course, is a different story.

    Of course, I've walked some very dangerous streets completely unarmed save for a sense of situational awareness. This in a neighborhood where passerby ARE murdered by thugs at night.

    One reason I haven't done more with guns is I'm concerned about training -- not just in their use, but in their maintenance. I've been to the range with co-workers back when I was contractor, but trying to read the field manual that came with the weapon -- at least in terms of cleaning it -- was a bit daunting. Do ranges offer training in that? Can you rent a weapon at the range to test it out, see if it suits you? Can you train with a rented weapon before you actually purchase one? How much time do you devote per month -- not just to proficiency, but to maintaining the weapon in top condition?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Hmm ... WRT to the knife discussion this police training film is relevant

    Short form :Fear the knife. "Bringing a knife to a gun fight" is only a losing proposition at distances greater than 20 feet ( 6.1 meters) .

    What this has convinced me of is that if I really want to get serious about self defense, I'm going to need martial arts training to defend against a knife attacker if I can't just run away ; on the average city street it is highly unlikely I'd have the distance I'd need to draw and fire on an attacker threatening me. Inside my own home, of course, is a different story.
    This was discussed earlier in the thread and defensive shooting techniques (IDPA techniques, Mozambique Drill, cowboy draw etc) can reduce the distance a melee attacker can cover. Also note that 21 feet is for the officer assess a threat, draw his weapon and fire two rounds centre of mass - if the weapon is already drawn and aimed at the attacker, they're not going to clear 21 feet before getting shot (whether it actually stops them is an entirely different question).

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    Most modern firearms (including my daily carry and my AR) require very little maintenance. Clean them after you shoot them. If they sit for a couple of years, maybe clean them before you shoot them. Don't let them get wet and rust. If you have any battery powered accessories (Eotech, light, Crimson Trace laser, etc), change the batteries occasionally.

    Cleaning takes anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes with practice depending on the gun. Paper towels, a boresnake, a can of CLP, and perhaps a properly sized punch (to loosen a retaining pin) are all I typically use.

    I "should" practice every month ($20 range fee and $15-$35 in ammo depending or whether or not I use a .22LR for some of my practice), but in reality I shoot a lot less often. Especially now that I have a 6 month old who keeps trying to bang on the keyboard right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Hmm ... WRT to the knife discussion this police training film is relevant

    Short form :Fear the knife. "Bringing a knife to a gun fight" is only a losing proposition at distances greater than 20 feet ( 6.1 meters) .
    Yes. This video is actually what I had in mind specifically, as I've seen it before and others like it. First and foremost, though, not everyone you'll meet with a knife is going to be Dan Inosanto. Yes, a knife is easy to move fast and easy to hurt someone with. But most people will swing a knife like a sword and put a lot more momentum and sort of ruin their own flow.

    But yes. Knives are bad.

    What this has convinced me of is that if I really want to get serious about self defense, I'm going to need martial arts training to defend against a knife attacker if I can't just run away ; on the average city street it is highly unlikely I'd have the distance I'd need to draw and fire on an attacker threatening me. Inside my own home, of course, is a different story.
    Wrong mindset. Or maybe right but really, really look into what you mean by self defense. Logically, knew-jerk, viscerally, all of it. Make sure that you do not mean "fight", you do not mean overcome and win and feel triumphant. Make sure you are focused on defending your self and that's it. It's too easy to get into the wrong sort of mindset because that's what everyone else puts forward.

    Most fitness advice is about how to be a body builder or how to recover from obesity, and people mix these two and do badly.

    Survival is about literally surviving, and most survival advice is about how to avoid being found and how to bunker down and be paramilitary.

    Most self defense thought is about being a kungfu bad ass, and that background radiation is constant and unacknowledged. If you do somethin with a knife you're going to bleed. You might even "win" but that doesn't stop the bleeding. Be ready for that.

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    How not to be seen is vital, both for hunting and for avoiding to be hunted. A good water source is obviously of utmost importance. Humans with weapons are excellent ambush-hunters - watch cats hunting and do likewise. Minus the butt-wiggle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    How not to be seen is vital, both for hunting and for avoiding to be hunted. A good water source is obviously of utmost importance. Humans with weapons are excellent ambush-hunters - watch cats hunting and do likewise. Minus the butt-wiggle.
    Survival != hunting and being hunted. That your first thought in a catastrophe is how to one-up other people and avoids the same speaks volumes about assumed necessities.

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    Not quite on the same topic, but I found this and thought some people here might appreciate it:

    Any Other Weapon collection.

    Reddit link to where owner has further information.

    If anything, it indicates how simple a firearm is, especially with all the developments that have gone into modern cased ammunition making things easy (in the case of that flashlight gun, it's just a tube and a firing pin).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Survival != hunting and being hunted. That your first thought in a catastrophe is how to one-up other people and avoids the same speaks volumes about assumed necessities.
    I'm of the Hobbes school of thought. :)
    Last edited by Asta Kask; 2014-09-20 at 01:24 PM.
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    Nah, I'll stick with not being seen during a catastrophe. No need to invite trouble upon myself.
    Last edited by Crow; 2014-09-20 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    One reason I haven't done more with guns is I'm concerned about training -- not just in their use, but in their maintenance. I've been to the range with co-workers back when I was contractor, but trying to read the field manual that came with the weapon -- at least in terms of cleaning it -- was a bit daunting. Do ranges offer training in that? Can you rent a weapon at the range to test it out, see if it suits you? Can you train with a rented weapon before you actually purchase one? How much time do you devote per month -- not just to proficiency, but to maintaining the weapon in top condition?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.

    As others have said, cleaning and maintaining firearms isn’t that hard. If you’re really that concerned get a revolver. They have less moving parts to take apart and put back together than semi-automatics (I’m talking about handguns), that makes them easier to maintain and keep clean.

    A lot of ranges do indeed rent out guns for the day. You’ll have to check your local listings and see what your local ranges offer. Trying a gun before buying is a good idea, the problem is that no gun range can have every gun in every caliber available on the market for rent. So you’re stuck with trying what they have. I suggest trying as many types of handguns in as many calibers as you can before buying one. Rent and borrow as necessary. Where I live you can't just grab a gun off the for sale shelf and try it out. A local business had their firearms license pulled for doing that (taking guns they had for sale out and shooting them, cleaning them and returning them to the store for sale) once upon a time. I don't think they will ever get it back. I dunno if that's state or federal mandate, check your local listings.

    How often you train depends on a lot of factors, time, cost and need being the three biggest ones. time and cost are obvious, as for need, well if your job doesn’t facilitate you carrying a gun, and then you won’t need to train with one as much. Another is carry laws, if you hold a CCW or can open carry (and do) then you need to invest more in training because carrying a gun in public is a HUGE responsibility that needs to be taken seriously, competency is important in that regards. But really how often you get out to the range depends on your schedule, how seriously you take the hobby and how much fun you have doing it.

    What gun you own all comes down to personal preference, some prefer one caliber or platform to another. But in the end they're all similar enough that the differences don't matter too much.


    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Not everyone you'll meet with a knife is going to be Dan Inosanto.
    Too true.
    Last edited by TheThan; 2014-09-22 at 02:57 PM.

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    Update: For your home defense needs, turns out a spear can work pretty well too. Evidently someone tried it on with an SCA member who just happened to have at least one medieval weapon in his house at the time. A mistake they won't repeat, I suspect.



    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Update: For your home defense needs, turns out a spear can work pretty well too. Evidently someone tried it on with an SCA member who just happened to have at least one medieval weapon in his house at the time. A mistake they won't repeat, I suspect.



    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    In a related story, LARP in Russia is something more like live-action historical reenactment. Where you dress in legit period armor, beat each other up with period weapons and if no-one had to be taken to a hospital with multiple broken bones, the event failed spectacularly.

    These LARPers also tend to be major trolls. So, imagine a situation where you're a chav/street gangbanger. You're a bit short on cash, so you take your knife and walk up to this tired and dirty-looking nerd that's carrying something in a roll of fabric. You say the normal words, "got a smoke, bro?" He's all like, "sod off, m8," only with a little more nautical lexicon. So you lightly stab him to reinforce your point. Only to hit chainmail.

    ...After which he yanks out his big-ass sword or mace and starts smacking you with it.
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    ... Did someone mention ninja attacks ?

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    So I heard the availability of .22 LR ammo is coming on the rise, anyone else hear that too? anyone else see any on store shelves?

    I've got a brand new .22 rifle i've had for over a year and I haven't put it through it's paces. The poor thing needs some attention. I'd rather not use up what .22 ammo I've got because it's so hard to replace right now.
    Last edited by TheThan; 2014-10-21 at 06:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    I'm of the Hobbes school of thought. :)
    Oh, in that case you also want to research how prison gangs work and how to dominate others using force of personality and cunning instead of solely focusing on being very good at killing other humans, otherwise you become yet another thing for them to rally against.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    So I heard the availability of .22 LR ammo is coming on the rise, anyone else hear that too? anyone else see any on store shelves?

    I've got a brand new .22 rifle i've had for over a year and I haven't put it through it's paces. The poor thing needs some attention. I'd rather not use up what .22 ammo I've got because it's so hard to replace right now.
    Sort of. I periodically see it on the shelf, which is a massive improvement over how it's been for a while. For over a year you basically couldn't get it without waiting in line on truck day. If there's a Sportsman's Warehouse or other big box store, check there. They'll have the most reliable and fairly priced supply.

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    I started a conversation in another forum regarding replacements for .22LR.

    With the alternatives out there (.22 Hornet, airguns, et all) and the scarcity of ammunition, one has to wonder if we'll see a shift to alternatives. I already use my air rifle for my small game and marksmanship needs. I haven't used any rimfire in ages, simply due to the ammo shortage.
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    It’s already happened.

    Word got out that BBs and pellets were cheap and available, so now they’re kinda hard to find as well.

    It's surprising the size of animals a proper air rifle will take down. plus they're fairly quiet and a body can carry a lot of ammo for little weight and volume.

    I'm glad I bought a bunch when I could. but it's still nice to keep an eye out for them.

    Shotgun ammo shouldn't be too hard to find, especially around waterfowl, turkey, dove, upland game (grouse, pheasant etc) season. Depending on where you live.
    Last edited by TheThan; 2014-10-22 at 03:18 PM.

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    Any one know of any good source for non-lead ammunition? Or non-lead bullets for reloading? California is implementing a complete ban on lead ammo starting in a couple years so I need to find a good source.
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    Nope.

    I’d complain about that, but that drifts into politics so yeah.

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    I've heard good things about Barnes, which appears to sell both complete cartridges and loose bullets, all made of copper instead of lead. There's no getting around the currently higher price, but I find it highly likely that the ecological consequences of lead bullets will result in a universal phase-out of the tech in a pretty short time. From the articles I've seen, the copper rounds are ballistically superior, so it's not that bad.

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    Isn't copper more expensive?
    I doubt you can cast you own with copper, too.

    I doubt BBs or pellets offer the same accuracy as even .22LR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    I'm of the Hobbes school of thought. :)
    That puts me and you logically into a false binary antagonism, when rationally we are on the same side. The premise of your statement seems to be that of course survival will equal hunting and being hunted, and that the leviathan must be an outside context thing. The truth of the matter is that groups of people will themselves attempt to become the leviathan.

    This causes another false dichotomy of either one large centralized power structure, or absolute anarchy. The truth here is that there is likely to be plenty of territory for plenty of groups and more than zero mobility between groups.


    I never understood the survivalist mentality of "expect the worst, shoot first". This just tells me that your group should be shot on sight, while I am broadcasting my peaceful intentions. This paradoxically increases the survivability of the people who are willing to work together and decreases the survivability of those who aren't – because by being ready to shoot they declare themselves targets.

    That's an interesting scenario. I'll have to look into it. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    Nope.

    I’d complain about that, but that drifts into politics so yeah.
    I completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    I've heard good things about Barnes, which appears to sell both complete cartridges and loose bullets, all made of copper instead of lead. There's no getting around the currently higher price, but I find it highly likely that the ecological consequences of lead bullets will result in a universal phase-out of the tech in a pretty short time. From the articles I've seen, the copper rounds are ballistically superior, so it's not that bad.
    Thanks for the link.

    As for the ballistics, I thought that I read the opposite actually though it may have been more from the standpoint that's just different.

    The thing about that whole thing that annoys me is the extra wear steel shot puts on a barrel of a shotgun. I've never hunted water fowl, just upland birds so I never had to worry about it.
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    For shot you could probably just load your own and subsitute .177 copper BBs for the lead shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    For shot you could probably just load your own and subsitute .177 copper BBs for the lead shot.
    DON'T do this. "Copper" BB's are copper-plated steel. They'll destroy your barrel. Unfortunately, you're stuck with lousy make-do's like bismuth.

    Copper has some properties that make it better than lead for ammunition, but it's not quite the best, because of it's lack of density. Generally, monolithic ammo like 100% copper is better balanced, since jacketing is never 100% true, but the relatively lower density makes it difficult to get the same ballistic coefficient as jacketed loads or bullets from denser materials. The really high end benchrest ammo is lathe-turned copper alloys, but you're talking outrageous costs.

    Other than fowl ingesting shot as a gizzard stone, I'm unaware of any legit concerns with lead ammo. Fumes are only a concern at an indoor range with poor ventilation. I know of studies that purportedly show there's no issue from lead saturation in outdoor range berms, but I'd have to do some searching to find them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    That puts me and you logically into a false binary antagonism, when rationally we are on the same side. The premise of your statement seems to be that of course survival will equal hunting and being hunted, and that the leviathan must be an outside context thing. The truth of the matter is that groups of people will themselves attempt to become the leviathan.

    This causes another false dichotomy of either one large centralized power structure, or absolute anarchy. The truth here is that there is likely to be plenty of territory for plenty of groups and more than zero mobility between groups.
    Wouldn't that depend a lot on the apocalypse? The world may be desperately overcrowded at first if the problem is, say, a coronal mass ejection frying all electricity. If it happens during winter in the Northern Hemisphere, it could be mighty frosty in the North, and food would go bad very soon in the South. And the cities would be burning very soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I never understood the survivalist mentality of "expect the worst, shoot first". This just tells me that your group should be shot on sight, while I am broadcasting my peaceful intentions. This paradoxically increases the survivability of the people who are willing to work together and decreases the survivability of those who aren't – because by being ready to shoot they declare themselves targets.
    The trick is to broadcast peaceful intention and then shoot when you're in an advantageous position. I'm not saying that this would necessarily happen - humans are good at cooperating - but the possibility would make life exciting.
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    Holy wow, been gone for around a month and this thread is more than alive and kicking o.o Well in the meantime, I managed to get a Glock 36 as my sidearm. Friend was selling it pretty darn cheap and said he would prefer me having it than some random dude on gunbroker or anything like that. Not really a high capacity Glock but it has the knockdown power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Bows require upkeep, training, specialized ammo, greater understanding of ballistics and register immediately as a weapon. The proper use of a sling (unlike a bow outside of a first world society) can be figured out with about a day of playing around in a field and resembles a stereotypical baseball pitch. I like bows, but they are far more "apocalypse prep" than they are week long survival trek.
    Precise aim with a sling isn't coming from a day of playing around in a field. I quite enjoy slinging, and used to just go slinging at least once a week for several years - I'm not sure I could hunt with a sling, just because I'm out of practice. Small targets are a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    While you’re trying to get within distance of your sling, the guy with the hunting rifle is already in range and taking aim.
    Wikipedia says that the world record for a sling is 1,434 ft, while impressive; I highly doubt most people (no offense to anyone and their skills) can sling quite that far. Or be able to have any sort of accuracy or hit with authority at that sort of range.
    That distance is from pure distance shooting. The target was the ground, the goal was maximum distance, and a really high arc was used. If one is comparing to a rifle, the comparison that should be used is where the rifle is aimed up at close to a 45 degree angle (air resistance probably means a lower one is needed) and the distance of the final landing point is used as the range.

    Just getting that distance is pretty impressive, even 600 feet is pretty good - obviously ancient military slingers were better here and likely wouldn't be impressed - but there's no real aiming at anywhere near that distance. Plus, precise aiming isn't happening in the first place without lots of practice.
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