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Thread: Range Time
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2014-08-22, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2014
Re: Range Time
Well with mine I do understand a 7.62x39 will burst through walls, I prefer the takedown power. The light gives a bit of extra survival on my part being ale to see in the dark plus blind a intruder. Though can I just say it still irks me when people call them assault rifles when they aren't full auto xD
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2014-08-22, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Piercing the Heavens
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Chiefly depends on the state and the situation. Assuming a late-night home invasion scenario, in the more gun friendly states like texas and montana, the police will rarely even make an arrest if they determine that a use of force was necessary. Regardless if it is one 12-gauge slug to the chest or twenty. Personally though I prefer a compact, pistol-caliber rifle loaded with hollowpoints. I would like to think that the sub-2000 at my bedside would fill that role nicely, but if I'm lucky, i'll never have to find out.
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2014-08-22, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Gender
Re: Range Time
To the OP; it's been ages since I've been able to spend any quality time at the range, pistol or rifle. Having an infant means less time at the range, and our oldest is a foster; unless/until we adopt him, I cannot legally take him along.
I approach firearms with two mindsets. Primarily, it's a skillset to enable me to protect myself and my family, and to hunt for meat. Thankfully, I've not been in combat, but I'd like to think I practice more than others in my specific field (maintenance has a different mindset towards combat than combat arms).
The second is what makes shooting fun. Precise rifle marksmanship. Not pretending to be a sniper, but approaching it as a mental exercise more than anything. This is why I use bullseye as my cooldown after going through my drills.
The one benefit to living in the desert is wide open space; should I choose not to use my local gun range, I can drive into the desert and setup how I see fit. I use a target stand build I learned on a scoutrifle forum (link).
I usually warm up with rimfires, to get my breathing and triggerwork into the zone. A little bullseye work to check zeros, and then a mix of drills learned from my time in service and from LEO buddies. Weak/off-hand drills, dummy rounds randomly loaded in the magazine by my wife to test immediate action drills, mixing in physical exercise to raise heartrate; there's TONS of fantastic exercises to improve ones skillset. Tricks like shooting numbers written on targets to force coginzance while shooting, having my wife/shooting partner asking me to cound fingers to my sides to maintain peripheral vision and situation awareness, and other games/competitions between us so we're always pushing each other to improve.
Cooldown and relax with some more bullseye work.
For me, it's about seisha hicchū; "true shooting, certain hitting" from Kyudo. That was how I was taught to approach rifle marksmanship growing up. Accurate shooting is not the goal, just evidence of proper technique and approach. Skilled marksmanship demonstrates a disciplined mind, and is truly a Zen experience. In Appleseed, they call it "riding the bubble". You ignore everything other than your position, your breath, and the trigger. Done properly, every shot will be a surprise. A good example is the Indian story of Arjuna; the archer so focused, when his master asked him to describe a bird in a tree, all he could see was the eye, his target.
When I'm in the zone, the world goes away. I don't worry about finances, about work, about politics or current events; NOTHING exists other than the target. Truly a cleansing experience.
Spoiler: Rant about tactics, semantics, and feel-good lawsHonestly, the only real advantage held by handguns over longarms is leaving a hand free to call police, open/close doors, etc. 5.56x45 in a 16in carbine, as compared to 9mm in an MP5, offers better initial penetration without risk from overpenetration (light, fast bullet vs relatively slow, heavy bullet).
- 5.56 rounds are typically in the 55-77 gr weight range, and milsurp has cannelures that serve as weak points in the jacket.
- Terminal ballistics usually involve fragmentation, and the low mass of the fragments prevents them from continuing to be a risk, especially after striking wall studs and the like at oblique angles.
- 9mm is usually in the 115-147gr, and designed for weight retention, rather than fragmentation.
- When compared to a shotgun, the ergonomics are heavily in the carbine's favor; shorter overall length, lighter weight, MUCH less recoil, much higher magazine capacity; unless you need to worry about bear and dangerous game in the outdoors, shotguns have relatively limited utility.
Factor in a point blank range of around 250m and it's no wonder M4geries are the go to for LEO agencies.
I love pistol work; it's been months since I've had a chance to do drills with my FN, and I miss it. But make no mistake, handguns are there as a compromise; ease of carry and concealibity when the more effective carbines or rifles are not practical.
As far as use-of-force and "pumping someone full of lead"; you ALWAYS shoot to end a threat. Shoot until the threat disengages or becomes incapacitated. There's no "shoot once, see if he quits" in a gunfight.
14 hits/33 shots from a .45 fails to stop two-legged varmint
Having trained for CQB, I can say without qualification that I will not be clearing my home the way I would a building in theater. I will use the pistol by my bed to protect myself while collecting my children in my bedroom, and parking myself with my carbine pointed at the door while my wife calls 911. The property in my home is insured, and not worth taking a life (though I chose not to exercise my right to defend my property with lethal force, I will not deny others that right).
Lethal force will be used to protect my family, and I will use the most effective tool available for that task. The limits on caliber and magazine capacity should be based on logistics (cost and availability) and circumstances (apartment vs farmhouse). Using tasers, capsicum sprays, batons etc is based on very specific goals in use of force. They are tools used for subduing and arresting a non-compliant, violent criminal, not for self-defense. When faced with a threat our lives, hesitation to decisively use the most effective tool available puts my family at greater risk.
Laws against self defense (inhibiting/removing castle doctrine and stand your ground protections) are based on the foolish belief that a predator whose goal is to cause harm has rights equal to the potential victims' rights. Once someone makes the decision to target an innocent for theft, murder, etc, they waive their rights to life (self-defence) liberty (prison) and property (fines).
And calling an Armalite Rifle an "assault rifle" when it's functionally no different than my Mini is just silly, and a tactic developed by anti-gunners to demonize black firearms.Last edited by SouthpawSoldier; 2014-08-22 at 08:54 PM.
I am a CN Human Wizard (5th Level)
STR 8; DEX 10; CON 10; INT 15; WIS 10; CHA 9
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2014-08-22, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Canuckistan
- Gender
Re: Range Time
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2014-08-22, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Location
- Wisconsin, USA
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Since I've got a large expanse of meadow and woodland, my range is outside the back door, with a hillside as a backstop.
Long arm: I'm a bit of an eccentric (or idiot). Winchester Model 1873 short rifle by preference. .357.
For close-in mayhem: Glock 19. I prefer 147-grain Remington ammo.Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2014-08-22, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Gender
Re: Range Time
I am a CN Human Wizard (5th Level)
STR 8; DEX 10; CON 10; INT 15; WIS 10; CHA 9
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2014-08-22, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Piercing the Heavens
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Just don't let it turn you off to the mosin entirely. For $150, a run-of-the-mill 91/30 makes a fun and cheap rifle to shoot. Even cheaper than .22 given the current market. An $80 scout scope and a $15 means you can still reliably hit a man-sized silhouette within that 150m. I just wouldn't trust bulgarian/russian mass produced ammunition to give as consistent groupings as the pricey match-grade stuff, especially out of a rifle that for all you know was used as a club then left in a cosmoline tomb for 70 years.
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2014-08-22, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Location
- GI Joe Headquarters
- Gender
Re: Range Time
OH I’m not saying that you should aim to wound or any other silly concept like that. Naturally the situation will determine just how much force is required to end the threat. I’m saying that when a person fires a gun, he’s responsible for each and every round he fires and should be aware of the consequences of doing so.
I totally agree with you about laws against self defense. The entire concept of “perpetrator’s rights’ for lack of better term is totally foreign to me.
As for the “assault rifle” remark, I was using a misnomer, I know that the ARs and others are not true assault rifles.
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2014-08-23, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Why would you use 147g? Are you running with a suppressor or something?
At pistol ranges, you're going to get more energy into the target with a lighter, faster (A lot of 147g is actually subsonic) bullet. 147g is only better once you get to ranges at which you're most likely not going to be using your pistol.
Have you considered running 124 or 127g?Last edited by Crow; 2014-08-23 at 12:47 AM.
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2014-08-23, 02:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
- Location
- Somewhere south of Hell
- Gender
Re: Range Time
With a stock like that, I don't care. If she's old enough to strap up in that leather on her hurt, there, she's old enough for me.
I believe that's where the difference between accuracy and precision comes in. An accurate weapon puts bullets where you point them; a precise weapon will put bullets close together consistently.
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2014-08-23, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Gothenburg, Sweden
- Gender
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2014-08-23, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Location
- Wisconsin, USA
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Yes, I might give that a try too. I started using the 147g on a recommendation, and, since it worked, didn't look back. I'm afraid I'm not huge on the analysis part, largely due to time issues.
I'll pick up some 124g or 127g as you suggest and try it out, though. Thanks for the advice!Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2014-08-23, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
- Location
- Somewhere south of Hell
- Gender
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2014-08-24, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Canuckistan
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Hm, I might order one just for derp, though other stuff is more expensive.
In other news, anyone has an inexpensive spotting scope they'd recommend? Something that would let me see .22 holes 100m clearly at 100m, and make them out at 200m. Yes, I realize accuracy with a .22 falls off really hard after ~100m due to wind and bullet drop. Still fun to shoot/sight longer distances.
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2014-08-24, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Range Time
I get out to the range as often as possible, which isn't nearly enough. In my area, guns and their ranges are frowned upon, so there is only one decent range in an acceptable driving distance.
I've been shooting my Smith and Wesson M&P 40, and I love it. I'm not as good a shot as I want to be, but everything has been in the black at least.
For home defense, we have a Remington 870 with Double-aught Buckshot for those uninvited guests.
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2014-08-24, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Piercing the Heavens
- Gender
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2014-08-24, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Somewhere in Midgard
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Kids don't leave me with much range time any more, but when I can go I normally take: my carry piece, a 1911; a rifle or two, normally an sks and my Mosin (a good one, shoots great and wasn't too beat up) and occasionally my savage 12 gauge.
I have other pieces, a couple of which are 22s, but with ammo the way it is, I cant afford to shoot them. A couple of other pieces round out the pack, but nothing really special, just some oddballs.My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P
Steam ID: blacklight101
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
At an observation deck at Port Wander, seeing his ship for the first time and being introduced to the bridge crew/away team that he hired before arriving.
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2014-08-24, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Pacific Northwest
- Gender
Re: Range Time
I own a Browning Auto-5 (FN) that belonged to my great-grandfather. I've never taken it to the range though. Keep meaning to, just never get around to it.
"We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"- Roger Zelazny, This Immortal
Avatar Image: The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai; bitmap version by me.
Spoiler: PbP Games
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2014-08-24, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Canuckistan
- Gender
Re: Range Time
I've heard the US had some shortages for .22s, but is it really that bad? Here in Canada, decent .22's run for ~$25-30 for a box of 500. Cheaper if you don't mind Walmart-grade. That's easily 5-7 trips to the range the way I shoot, and I tend to go trigger happy just because I can.
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2014-08-24, 11:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Albuquerque
- Gender
Re: Range Time
It's about that price if you can find it in stock. Availability is a serious issue. You can always get it if you're dumb and willing to pay 2-3 times retail to some filthy reseller, but in the rare event that is shows up in a gun store's delivery it tends to disappear quickly.
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2014-08-24, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Sheez tell me about it...I am paying almost .25 a round for 5.45x39 right now :(
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2014-08-25, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2014
Re: Range Time
Wow, really a breath of fresh air not only to talk to other owners but also to see so many that play 3.5 or pathfinder that are owners as well!
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2014-08-25, 05:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Gender
Re: Range Time
7.62x39 is pretty available, and at pre-Obama prices. .308 is pricey, but around. Haven't seen .22 on shelves anywhere for over a year. Spending more time with my GSR and my Mini than my rimfires.
I am a CN Human Wizard (5th Level)
STR 8; DEX 10; CON 10; INT 15; WIS 10; CHA 9
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2014-08-25, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Somewhere in Midgard
- Gender
Re: Range Time
@Don Julio. Well, 22 ammo around here is a bear to find and typically goes for about 40 the maybe 3 times ive seen ammo lately, walmart and the other gun stores are sold out within a couple hours of getting a shipment. I have one brick (500rds) or so left, but i wont open it until I can get more. My oddball ammo is easier and often cheaper when I find it.
My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P
Steam ID: blacklight101
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
At an observation deck at Port Wander, seeing his ship for the first time and being introduced to the bridge crew/away team that he hired before arriving.
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2014-08-25, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Range Time
I've found several websites that have decent prices on .22, nothing like it used to be of course, but compared with the inability to actually find the stuff and the price the local gun shops want to charge when they do have it it's pretty good.
If you want to buy it locally, I would suggest talking to the people running the shop and asking when they get their deliveries and being there with in minutes so you have a chance. That's likely what I'll have to start doing.
[sarcasm]I love living in California.[/sarcasm]
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2014-08-25, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Somewhere in Midgard
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Ooh, California? I'm sorry you have to deal with those far stricter laws out there, I guess they just figure us rednecks like our 30 round mags too much to mess with us :p Really, though, I understand the restrictions, but its too bad people that follow the law have to uphold stricter standards there than here, but I digress, im not trying to start political statements on that crap.My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P
Steam ID: blacklight101
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
At an observation deck at Port Wander, seeing his ship for the first time and being introduced to the bridge crew/away team that he hired before arriving.
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2014-08-25, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
- Location
- Island of tea
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Am I the only one reading this thread and being startled by all this talk of keeping pistols and rifles and shotguns to deal with 'home invasions'?
What exactly are these? Do they happen often in the US? They sound fairly nasty, if you need to keep a firearm to deal with them.
The couple of gun-owners I know have a shotgun for shooting at various wildlife. Never met anyone who seriously considers their weapon as something to use on other people.
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2014-08-25, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Gothenburg, Sweden
- Gender
Re: Range Time
In fact it may well be more dangerous to you if you have a gun, because if you and the crook have guns you both have a pressing reason to shoot first. If one of you don't, there may be threats and unpleasantness but there's not that "if I don't shoot first he will... and he is thinking the same..." dynamic.
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Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2014-08-25, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Somewhere in Midgard
- Gender
Re: Range Time
I can see both sides of the argument here, but I do have a concealed carry permit, but only to react if something happens around me, same with the shotgun and all the rest at the house, the area I live in has a few drug problems and armed unsavory types wandering around. Meth is a big problem here, so that explains a lot, at least to people that know the area.
I figure if you want the little to nothing I have badly enough to break into my trailer, you may as well run the risk of me being close enough to something to so something about it. I really only have them for range use and "in case sh**s" Boy scouts didn't help either, the whole "Be Prepared" thing they teach you, that and the light proficiency with a pellet gun and archery.
I know plenty of people that carry and own and plenty that don't, I just don't trust the law to respond in less than 20 minutes where I live unless they're on that road already, and I have two kids, so I have something to protect with my life. Its more than material stuff, for me, I have them now to protect my family that im trying not to mess up otherwise, let alone if someone breaks in and intends harm or just to steal. Maybe its paranoia, maybe its the urge to want to protect others, but not in the same sense as an officer, but I feel, not so much even safer, but if something happens, maybe it wont be as bad, maybe it wont be that awful nationwide story, maybe its just a local article in the paper about the guy that stopped the robber before he could hurt anybody. Don't misunderstand me though, I wouldn't do anything of the sort for the fame or anything like that, I just don't want a tragedy in my hometown if I can do something about it, too many of those in this country already.
Take it how you will, all I really advocate in the end is responsibility.My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P
Steam ID: blacklight101
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
At an observation deck at Port Wander, seeing his ship for the first time and being introduced to the bridge crew/away team that he hired before arriving.
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2014-08-25, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Piercing the Heavens
- Gender
Re: Range Time
Happen quite often. Typically in densely populate urban areas. One or more people force their way into another home (sometimes armed themselves with knives, bats, firearms, ect.) typically intent on taking valuables or committing more distasteful acts. Sometimes they'll bolt once they realize the occupants are home, sometimes they'll leave the occupants alone and just take stuff, then sometimes they'll kill the occupants to try and eliminate the chance of being caught. Stuff like this is why home security is such a big market in the US and one of the main reasons that the firearms industry stays as strong as it does.