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Thread: Range Time

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLHerne View Post
    Other gun-crime statistics are similarly tiny - the very strict gun laws mean that the criminals don't have guns either.
    Well they do sometimes, otherwise we wouldn't need Armed Response Vehicles.

    Black market firearms are still a major problem, but yes, most criminals tend not to carry guns and use improvised weapons instead (sharpened screw drivers are a favourite as they're readily available and can easily slip between ribs).

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    It helps that UK is an island that can fairly easily control the flow of goods in or out. It's a lot more difficult to slip by on a smuggling boat, than it is to cross a land border.

    Also, I fully agree that gun murders are a cultural thing rather than an issue of gun availability. Russia has extremely strict gun laws, and has one of the highest gun murder rates in the civilized world. Some of the US states with the most prominent gun culture like Texas also tend to have the least gun crime, and general crime as well. You're probably not going to stick up even an old lady if she's liable to pull a .357 Magnum on you.
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    You have to look at it per area and region. Places where you see a lot of control see some of the highest crime rate whereas ones with not much control has some of the least shooting deaths. It kinda is like, if you know almost everyone and their grandma is packing, ur probably not gonna risk ur life to snatch her purse XD One thing is like to point out is in Australia once they revoked like everones rights to own and destroyed all that was confiscated, crime rate shot up like crazy high.

    But I digress, I just find it rather silly how biased media is when it comes to this stuff. heck mos the time they use the wrong terminology. Calling mags clips, saying semi auto thinking it means fully auto, trying to say weapons that "look" military like are assault weapons (biggest pet peeve, I can make a ruger .22 rifle look like a modern sniper with just a body kit) and acting like someone with 200 rounds of ammo is stockpiling like some nut. I just think people should learn about stuff before spouting either for or against it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BizzaroStormy View Post
    Makes me thankful that the state I live in, the only question im asked (outside the normal background check) when purchasing a gun is whether or not I want some ammo and a half-hour on the range with my purchase.
    That’s Awesome!

    It’s not just guns, the media always tries to push their agenda, regardless of whether that agenda swings to the left or right.
    It’s very hard to just trust to news to give you a straight story without spinning it some way. It’s a game of mine to listen and catch where they put their spin in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Wolf View Post
    acting like someone with 200 rounds of ammo is stockpiling like some nut.
    This is the one that really bugs me.

    "What do you need 1000 rounds of ammo for???"

    Three trips to the range with my friends without having to deal with finding ammo because everywhere is always sold out.
    Last edited by Crow; 2014-08-28 at 08:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    This is the one that really bugs me.

    "What do you need 1000 rounds of ammo for???"

    Three trips to the range with my friends without having to deal with finding ammo because everywhere is always sold out.
    Especially if its .22, that's only 2 bricks. You are definitely right about that only lasting a good day or so at the range. I try to keep, largely because of the outrageous shortages, about 180-200 rounds per gun, but I can only go to the range maybe 3-5 times a year since my wife and I work opposite shifts and cant afford babysitters/ daycare. I don't think its that unreasonable to have that much sitting around with the crazy buying and no time for good trips. Hard to take friends with 1 box of ammo. I just hope this little bit of crazy goes away soon and I can just get some .22, I really just want to shoot cheaply again.
    My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacklight101 View Post
    Especially if its .22, that's only 2 bricks. You are definitely right about that only lasting a good day or so at the range. I try to keep, largely because of the outrageous shortages, about 180-200 rounds per gun, but I can only go to the range maybe 3-5 times a year since my wife and I work opposite shifts and cant afford babysitters/ daycare. I don't think its that unreasonable to have that much sitting around with the crazy buying and no time for good trips. Hard to take friends with 1 box of ammo. I just hope this little bit of crazy goes away soon and I can just get some .22, I really just want to shoot cheaply again.
    Not to mention buying in bulk tends to be cheaper, especially in the case of surplus 7.63x39 and 7.62x54r.

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    Bulk ammo is the way to go when you can afford the expense. I have been looking into the 400-540 packs of the 54r. Not too pricey for what they are.



    EDIT:


    Anyone shoot any black powder? if so what make/model do you use? I only have 1 right now, a repro 1861 Colt Navy, .44 cal.
    Last edited by blacklight101; 2014-08-29 at 02:49 PM.
    My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P

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    I’ve shot black powder cartridge in .45 long colt before but no muzzleloaders. It was fun, but hey shooting is fun in general.

    edit
    retracted story time, decided I didn't want to put up what sorts of guns my family and I own for all the world to see. Security reasons and all. (its not that I don't trust you, its that i don't trust you)
    Last edited by TheThan; 2014-08-29 at 03:42 PM.

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    Fair enough, too bad we have to play our cards so close, I bet there are some good stories among them.
    My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Personal protection is not a 'good reason'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Julio Anejo View Post
    Wanting to own a gun for self-defence is a huge no-no. Pretty sure it puts you on a bunch of police watchlists. Basically the police have to demonstrate to courts that your life is in imminent danger and police may not be able to protect you. So, unless you're in witness protection or something, you're not getting a gun for self-defense, and if you have one, you weren't allowed to use it for that until very recently, when it became legal to defend your property from invaders.
    Buh... What? I won't get into it here as it'd swing way over into politics, but... John Locke must be rolling over in his grave (look up his political theory if you don't know what I mean).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    Also, you need an explosives license for black powder but not for regular ammunition? That doesn’t make sense. Both black powder and smokeless powder are explosives. What if I wanted to shoot black powder cartridges or I had an antique gun that can only shoot black powder cartridges because of the pressures involved? Would I still need a license for that?

    Has been addressed, but this isn't entirely accurate. Black powder is an explosive, smokeless powder like Pyrodex is a propellant. If you put a match to a pile of smokeless powder it won't blow up like black powder will. As a reenactor, I have to fire black powder out of my musket, because if I tried to make blanks with modern powder it would just fizz a bit without a bullet to contain the ignition.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by blacklight101 View Post
    Just some Civil War, 2nd Virginia, D company. Great guys to fall in with, I just moved away from them.
    2nd Virginia... I fell in with a company of the 2nd Virginia (can't remember which) last September at the 150th reenactment of Chickamauga. Your unit, by any chance?
    Last edited by rs2excelsior; 2014-08-29 at 07:16 PM.
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    2nd Virginia... I fell in with a company of the 2nd Virginia (can't remember which) last September at the 150th reenactment of Chickamauga. Your unit, by any chance?

    wasn't my unit, I don't think. Sadly, ive been disconnected from them for a few years now. If it was those guys, I hope they gave those blue Devils hell. ^_^
    My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the 7/11, most others want the dollar too :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacklight101 View Post
    Fair enough, too bad we have to play our cards so close, I bet there are some good stories among them.
    Yeah, it’s better safe than sorry, anonymity is your best friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by rs2excelsior View Post
    Has been addressed, but this isn't entirely accurate. Black powder is an explosive, smokeless powder like Pyrodex is a propellant. If you put a match to a pile of smokeless powder it won't blow up like black powder will. As a reenactor, I have to fire black powder out of my musket, because if I tried to make blanks with modern powder it would just fizz a bit without a bullet to contain the ignition.
    EDIT:
    2nd Virginia... I fell in with a company of the 2nd Virginia (can't remember which) last September at the 150th reenactment of Chickamauga. Your unit, by any chance?
    Meh, they’re both used to propel metallic projectiles at high speed.

    *Raises the stars and bars and starts whistling Dixie.*
    Last edited by TheThan; 2014-08-29 at 09:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    *Raises the stars and bars and starts whistling Dixie.*
    Heh. The father of a girlfriend I had, was a American Civil War re-enactor and had a bumper sticker on his car: If at first you don't secede...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rs2excelsior View Post
    ...Wait. What?

    The only "good reason" you should need is that you're a law-abiding citizen who agrees to follow the laws when using it and feel a need or desire to have one.
    United Kingdom. As I recall, they also banned swords because of the amount of crime committed with WW II trophy katanas.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    You’re not the only one.

    This is a tragedy and some are taking advantage of it to push their agenda. It’s not right.
    Few people are killed or injured by accidental shootings at the range (I really wish I could find trustworthy statistics here), when compared to the number of how many kids are injured in junior and high school team sports.
    I do not believe that is comparable. You give some a football and you give them a toy. You put a loaded firearm in their hand and they are holding the Thunder of Zeus, the power to decide who lives and dies. If you put a gun in someone's hand beforet the enormity of that responsibility and burden crosses their mind, you get bad things.

    That doesn't happen with footballs.

    Wait what? Personal protection is not a good reason? Don’t you guys have violent crime out there?
    Please avoid politically loaded stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by blacklight101 View Post
    Realistically, if you use guns like we all seem to, there wouldn't be so many problems,
    When a man carries a hammer all his problems begin to look like nails. I am one of the most trustworthy and moral people I've ever met when it comes to violence, and I had to stop carrying my knife a year or two ago because a bad streak of luck left me wondering about the Three Thousand Ninjas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Yeah. It's like any other tool, you need to take care of it. We get too much media that shows that you can power through things as a sign of strength, but that's ridiculous. Like, dragon ball z. The "strong" characters are the ones who have the power to get hit in the jaw and not get phased. But really, the actual skillful martial artist is the one who doesn't get hit because that's stupid.

    I have learned – I am learning – that a lot of basic socialization is self destructive. We are taught to show our integrity by being tested. But the expression of that is, quite literally, retarded. In the sense of delaying or holding back progress; literally turning away advancement and repelling growth. You don't take a tool, abuse it and then use it breaking as proof that you had a bad tool to start with! So why do we take people, put them into stressful, hurtful and painful situations and use their eventual degradation as proof they were inferior to start with?

    Because it's true, but not for the reasons we all believe.

    No one is immune to causation. Abrasion causes stuff to erode. Filing away the surface of a thig reduces it. That's plainly obvious. The healthy, emotionally mature skillset that we are ne'er taught is the ability to recognize "wow, this is going to be bad. I choose not to put myself into a bad situation" and walk away. I learned this, eventually, trough martial arts and the Too Many Ninjas problem. You have people who start learning martial arts and start to feel like bad-asses, and they get told "self defense" and they start looking for an excuse to use what they know. They try to rules-lawyer things. I'm sure you've heard the conversation before, right?

    "so when can I use my skills?"
    When you're at the very end of the road and have no choice.
    "okay, so if I'm walking down a dark alley and I see a guy walking towards me, then?"
    No, then you keep an eye on the guy and avoid him. Make sure he knows you're looking at him. Don't get close.
    "well what if he surprises me? Like out of the shadows?"
    Then run away, maybe jump back if you have to.
    "well, what if he has a friend, who blocks off the alley? And demands my money?"
    Then give him your wallet, and look for a way out.
    "well, what if..."

    And the end result is always the same. Yes, if you are for some reason walking down an alleyway with your head down and your earphones on full blast when you're surprised by two size ninjas with Uzis who surround you and begin to manhandle you and cutting off any and all escape route, then you can defend yourself with violence. But you've already failed. Why are you walking down an alley? Why are you walking around at night? Why aren't you paying attention? Why aren't you being aware of your surroundings? Why are you actively endangering yourself just to justify doing to someone else the same thing in teaching you to defend against? Why don't you run at the first sign of danger?

    Being angry is like that. I know that I can do terrible things when angry. And now, I know after too many years, that there is no magic "you're not angry anymore" button. Everything I've been told about fixing it is wrong. It doesn't get easier or go away; you get better. That's not 100% true; it does get easier, there is medication, there is help when you feel you can't deal with it whether that help is curative or preventative. But the idea that I should learn, before I get angry, how to handle it and maintain it, was a powerful one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Pssh. The police will be there in like...20 minutes. You'll be fine.
    Please avoid political stuffs! :(
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2014-08-30 at 04:50 AM.

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    Suis' post is why I cringe at the folks who think buying and wearing a gun think they're prepared to defend themselves. Firearms are tools, and like any tool they demand proper training. I'm not talking just IPSC or 3-gun, though movement and skilled use is also key. The understanding of when to use is vital. That being said, legal duty to retreat and negation of stand your ground/castle doctrine laws I find repugnant, as they place the onus on the victim.

    This is why I specified in my earlier post that home defense consists of parking my family behind me in the most defensible room of my home. Property is just stuff, and can be replaced. I won't go so far as to say that is the only acceptable decision, as property also can mean one's livelihood and ability to provide for your family. I just happen to be in the relatively luxurious position to have contingencies.

    When it comes to personal carry, I agree with your post, with caveats. One can generally avoid most situations that call for violent action. I am no John Rambo, but I will not discount the potential need for violence. The L.A. riots where store owners protected their livelihood by standing on the roofs with rifles, for example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    United Kingdom. As I recall, they also banned swords because of the amount of crime committed with WW II trophy katanas.
    The exact wording they used were 'samurai swords' (the crimes were more often committed with replica weapons rather than trophy ones since trophy ones aren't generally well looked after) and was a bit of a knee jerk thing. I believe very shortly afterwards they came out with amendments for legitimate collectors and all the law abiding kenjutsu/aikido/etc martial artists who were now in possession of an illegal weapon through no fault of their own.

    As for your post regarding anger and situational awareness, definitely seconded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I do not believe that is comparable. You give some a football and you give them a toy. You put a loaded firearm in their hand and they are holding the Thunder of Zeus, the power to decide who lives and dies. If you put a gun in someone's hand beforet the enormity of that responsibility and burden crosses their mind, you get bad things.
    I’ve never said that guns are toys; in fact I’ve said the opposite. Guns are dangerous weapons and need to be treated as dangerous weapons. If a person owns a gun of any sort, they need to have the maturity and responsibility of being able to own that gun safely. They also should seek training in using that firearm safely. I’ve given that advice on this forum before, and in real life. If you feel you’re not responsible enough to own a gun, then you probably shouldn’t, if you don’t think you need training, then you need training (even those that have received that training before could always use a reminder).

    Gun ranges are very safe places to be compared to the average Pop-Warner or high school level football game. Kids get hurt, often times very seriously all the time at these sporting events. Hell pro-football players just won a major lawsuit about concussions against the NFL. They were just playing their sport and they got beat up badly. Few people (in comparison mind you) get hurt or killed at the range.

    When it happens it’s a tragedy. The person who was killed out in Arizona had become complacent and careless; he unfortunately died for his mistakes. While my heart goes out to his family and to the little girl and her family, I still want to say that this is a harsh reminder of the potential dangers of guns and that we should never ever let our guard down and become complacent or careless when dealing with them. Gun safety is paramount and key to having fun at the range (or anywhere else you’re shooting).

    Self defense is another topic and I’ve already talked at length about that.
    Last edited by TheThan; 2014-08-30 at 02:50 PM.

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    I remember in high school football, our coaches always told us to spear the opponent with the top of our helmet. Nevermind that the warning label on the helmet itself said to never do that. Complete with graphic of a dude breaking his neck.
    Last edited by Crow; 2014-08-30 at 03:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthpawSoldier View Post
    Suis' post is why I cringe at the folks who think buying and wearing a gun think they're prepared to defend themselves. Firearms are tools, and like any tool they demand proper training. I'm not talking just IPSC or 3-gun, though movement and skilled use is also key. The understanding of when to use is vital. That being said, legal duty to retreat and negation of stand your ground/castle doctrine laws I find repugnant, as they place the onus on the victim.
    I feel that the onus should be on the people choosing lethal force, myself. It's a complex issue for sure and I won't argue it here, but I will point out the logical conclusion of not being requires to run already exists. It is called gang warfare. They are both rooted firmly in the idea that the other guy started it so you can end it and not be culpable for choosing to also do violence.

    When it comes to personal carry, I agree with your post, with caveats. One can generally avoid most situations that call for violent action. I am no John Rambo, but I will not discount the potential need for violence. The L.A. riots where store owners protected their livelihood by standing on the roofs with rifles, for example.
    I'm all for carry, actually. I find the idea of being in a situation that may be non-lethal – a mugging, a fight, etc. – and not drawing a gun to be path-affirming. I do know that it I had only a knife though, I would probably not make as wise a decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    The exact wording they used were 'samurai swords' (the crimes were more often committed with replica weapons rather than trophy ones since trophy ones aren't generally well looked after) and was a bit of a knee jerk thing. I believe very shortly afterwards they came out with amendments for legitimate collectors and all the law abiding kenjutsu/aikido/etc martial artists who were now in possession of an illegal weapon through no fault of their own.

    As for your post regarding anger and situational awareness, definitely seconded.
    Heh. Yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    I’ve never said that guns are toys; in fact I’ve said the opposite.
    But you equated learning to wield the thunder of Jupiter with learning to run a lozenge across a field while being attacked by friends and rivals.

    Yes, gun ranges can be equated to football fields. But learning to play football can never be equated to learning to shoot. I understand why you said what you did, but I feel it's a very grave thing worth pointing out. One of those instances where we, as humans, do not compile. We learn one thing, and later in life learn another, and don't realize they conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I feel that the onus should be on the people choosing lethal force, myself. It's a complex issue for sure and I won't argue it here, but I will point out the logical conclusion of not being requires to run already exists. It is called gang warfare. They are both rooted firmly in the idea that the other guy started it so you can end it and not be culpable for choosing to also do violence.
    It already is the responsibility of the person choosing lethal force. There are some places where anything short of compliance with an assailant will get you jail time or leave to open to a civil suit from said assailant or their next-of-kin. How much force, if any, being necessary is a question that simply cannot be answered out of context. Even if you dont factor in the legal aspect, your still looking at several factors including number of assailants, number of victims, the force multipliers on each side, intent of the assailant(s), mental state of the assailant(s), mental state of the victim(s), environmental factors such as the flow and density of traffic, ect.

    Even if you come up with hypothetical situations in which you account for each factor, you cannot realistically claim that the evaluation would be accurate. For example, I would like to think that if I walked in on your stereotypical convenience store robbery, that I would be able to draw my weapon and either defuse the situation and hold the assailant at gunpoint until police arrive; but I still don't know what would happen. What if in that situation I would lose myself in the moment and just pull the trigger? What if I need to pull it and hesitate resulting in the death/injury of myself or someone else? What if I simply lock up and stand there staring through the window like a deer caught in headlights? No way to know. And frankly, I'd like to never find out.

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    Which is why I love living in Florida where if someone tries to come into my house to kill me or my family, I am allowed to actually do something to defend myself. You shouldn't "have" to run away from your own home, ever. Of course the reason I bought a gun wasn't to defend myself, it was well, I wanted to just own a gun and sometimes go to the range to have fun and blow off some steam. But if, and a mighty big "if", the time comes I should have to defend (which I pray, absolutely mean it, pray it never should happen) myself, I wont have to worry about being punished for defending myself.
    Last edited by Crimson Wolf; 2014-08-30 at 05:54 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Wolf View Post
    Which is why I love living in Florida where if someone tries to come into my house to kill me or my family, I am allowed to actually do something to defend myself. You shouldn't "have" to run away from your own home, ever. Of course the reason I bought a gun wasn't to defend myself, it was well, I wanted to just own a gun and sometimes go to the range to have fun and blow off some steam. But if, and a mighty big "if", the time comes I should have to defend (which I pray, absolutely mean it, pray it never should happen) myself, I wont have to worry about being punished for defending myself.

    +1 to this, its basically the same in my state, just a bit farther north than yours
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    Quote Originally Posted by BizzaroStormy View Post
    It already is the responsibility of the person choosing lethal force. There are some places where anything short of compliance with an assailant will get you jail time or leave to open to a civil suit from said assailant or their next-of-kin. How much force, if any, being necessary is a question that simply cannot be answered out of context. Even if you dont factor in the legal aspect, your still looking at several factors including number of assailants, number of victims, the force multipliers on each side, intent of the assailant(s), mental state of the assailant(s), mental state of the victim(s), environmental factors such as the flow and density of traffic, ect.

    Even if you come up with hypothetical situations in which you account for each factor, you cannot realistically claim that the evaluation would be accurate. For example, I would like to think that if I walked in on your stereotypical convenience store robbery, that I would be able to draw my weapon and either defuse the situation and hold the assailant at gunpoint until police arrive; but I still don't know what would happen. What if in that situation I would lose myself in the moment and just pull the trigger? What if I need to pull it and hesitate resulting in the death/injury of myself or someone else? What if I simply lock up and stand there staring through the window like a deer caught in headlights? No way to know. And frankly, I'd like to never find out.
    I don't understand how this relates to what I said or what you quoted, I'm afraid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Wolf View Post
    Which is why I love living in Florida where if someone tries to come into my house to kill me or my family, I am allowed to actually do something to defend myself. You shouldn't "have" to run away from your own home, ever. Of course the reason I bought a gun wasn't to defend myself, it was well, I wanted to just own a gun and sometimes go to the range to have fun and blow off some steam. But if, and a mighty big "if", the time comes I should have to defend (which I pray, absolutely mean it, pray it never should happen) myself, I wont have to worry about being punished for defending myself.
    Now hold on. One of these things is not like the other, and I think we are painting with too broad a brush. I'm going to talk morally, ethically, and not legally. But the idea is similar, so you should be able to see what I mean.

    The language used, at least when discussing the severity of lethal force, the continuum of force, and knives and escalation, is 'avenue of escape'. If you have the ability to escape from the situation and go somewhere safe, you take that. This is pretty much common sense; if you accept that, when a belligerent homeless man calls you a dirty word, you can't march up and punch him, you should accept that you cannot march up and punch him just because you were already walking that way and he's barring your path. You go around.

    Your home is personal. Avenue of escape means you can get away and go home. If someone invades your home, however, there is nowhere to escape to. This is a qualitatively different situation than the standard assumptions of self defense; this is home defense, and ties in several issues; self defense, protecting others, reasonable cause for concern, reasonable assumption of motive. It is probable that if you attempt to de-escalate a situation in home defense, the aggressor can leave and return later. It's your home after all. It's where you live.

    This completely alters the understanding of avenue of escape. You have a surety that present or future harm is certain, regardless of anything said. When specifically discussing the continuum of force, avenue of escape/mandatory flight, and weapons laws, home defense needs must be considered separate. Lumping them together is tossing the baby out with the bath water because you are using one moral lesson to ignore another. Yes, you should avoid a fight, always, in every possible way. Run. Cry and piss yourself to make them leave you alone. But also, yes, defend your home. Because it is your anchor. These are not in conflict unless you specifically make them so.

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    Siuis, I would contend that learning to shoot and learning football are quite the same things.

    Learning to *kill* is quite another. I know several shooters who shoot for the enjoyment of the sport alone. The satisfaction of hitting the target.

    Very few people take their kids to the range and practice failure drills, or weapon retention drills.
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    Yeah if someone just is yelling at you or what not it is not right to just go starting a fight. But if someone pulls a knife on you, you shouldn't just give into demands. Pissing yourself and running away? Are you serious? Who's to say the person already provoking by brandishing a weapon or violence wont continue to do so once he has something? yes flight or fight can be good at times, especially if outnumbered or odds against you but if I am walking the street and some thug comes up with a knife or something, I will defend myself. This isn't out of some need or wanting, to hurt someone, it is me defending myself. You also can (if someone holds you up with a knife) just pull out a pistol and then make them surrender. Also this "pissing yourself" argument hits a bit hard to home for me because this is what some people on the left ACTUALLY suggested people who are being sexually assaulted to do. Saying no conflict will happen if you make none is saying people like rapists and psychopaths wont assault you if you don't give them a reason :/

    Sorry didn't mean to rant a bit but, you brought something that touched a bit too personal to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Learning to *kill* is quite another. I know several shooters who shoot for the enjoyment of the sport alone. The satisfaction of hitting the target.

    Very few people take their kids to the range and practice failure drills, or weapon retention drills.
    And if you're really unlucky, you get to learn both at the same time. /current events, viral video edition

    Good. There's few things that are more dangerous to those around them than someone who doesn't know how to use a gun and is physically incapable of controlling and handling it while firing it, at least based upon what I learned in Scouting.

    Edit: Besides, you never aim a gun, loaded or unloaded, at something you don't intend to kill. Even if it's a piece of paper you're killing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    I know several shooters who shoot for the enjoyment of the sport alone. The satisfaction of hitting the target.
    I shoot because I find it really relaxing. Like fishing, but you don't even have to kill anything. You literally just sit there and aim through your scope for a few minutes at a time.
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    Yes, home defense is another kettle of fish.

    In particular, someone who is willing to enter your home in a hostile manner is showing a high potential for fatal aggression. They know that this is a place where people live, and that therefore there is a high probability of encountering people there, especially during non-working hours.

    Therefore, their hostile presence in their home indicates they are prepared to neutralize your opposition to their being there. Meaning that their breaking in during "living hours" means that they are quite likely okay with the idea of injuring, incapacitating, or killing you.

    I would argue that a "home invasion" constitutes a higher level of concentrated, purposeful aggression than someone approaching you in a hostile manner on the street in many cases. The street approach could be random and/or impulsive and therefore easier to avoid. The home invasion is heavily premeditated and is the place where having a gun handy to defend yourself seems more imperative than running away.

    To me, anyway. I may be talking out of the wrong end of my alimentary tract here, too.

    EDIT:

    I also live in an area where bears and coyotes are present. I've seen coyotes attempting to stalk my dogs on two occasions. Both times, I ran to get my rifle after getting the pooches to safety, but the offending coyote was absent by the time I returned, of course. So my defensive use is more likely to be against a quadruped than a biped.

    Also, venison is delicious.

    And, as others have pointed out, target shooting is fun and relaxing. That alone is a good part of my reason for gun ownership.
    Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2014-08-30 at 11:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Wolf View Post
    Yeah if someone just is yelling at you or what not it is not right to just go starting a fight. But if someone pulls a knife on you, you shouldn't just give into demands. Pissing yourself and running away? Are you serious? Who's to say the person already provoking by brandishing a weapon or violence wont continue to do so once he has something?
    "The other guy might escalate more, so I should do it first to have the advantage" is not based on safety. It is not based on rationality. It is not based on logic. It is based on ego. It is based on wanting to be the biggest chimpanzee to bang a femur on the obelisk, by god, and let no one dethrone you!

    Do Not do the monkey dance. Do not stand up when he puffs out his chest. Do not scream when he shouts. Do not push when he gets into your space. That is escalation. That is the monkey dance. If you have conflict, and the other person does not immediately back down; if he chuffs, kill him. Immediately. Cold blood. And if you cannot, or will not, do that; Walk away.

    If you don't, if it is not as clear as "kill" or "run", then you are not fighting because your life is at risk. You are risking your life to justify the fight. You are betting your safety to keep in the game just a little longer to clarify whether "kill" or "run" is the right answer, and I guarantee you aren't going to find yourself with "run". You can certainly choose to lash out preemptively based on an assessment of risk, but let us not kid that this is not risking yourself to justify risking yourself.

    Also this "pissing yourself" argument hits a bit hard to home for me because this is what some people on the left ACTUALLY suggested people who are being sexually assaulted to do.
    Left, up, right, down, or center aren't relevant to the moral point. There are people on both sides of the arbitrary divide who have opinions you would disagree with. Let us not polarize by demonized political stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion View Post
    Yes, home defense is another kettle of fish.

    In particular, someone who is willing to enter your home in a hostile manner is showing a high potential for fatal aggression. They know that this is a place where people live, and that therefore there is a high probability of encountering people there, especially during non-working hours.
    [/QUOTE]

    I wonder if this is an American thing or not. Does this risk exist in the same measure in, say, the UK? Or do home invaders, knowing their targets won't have guns, just have more guts and trust that they won't be killed, this being more wiling to let those they find live? I should look that up.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2014-08-31 at 12:01 AM.

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