Range Time

[TheThan]

I was expressing agreement as to the value of education and experience? I'm not sure what the bad mhm would be? Or was what I did the bad mhm? In that case, what would the good mhm have been?

I know that part of that evasion/stealth stuff is woodcraft, but it always seems like... fancy frills that should be added on only after the more fundamental keeping yourself alive, even getting to the point of thriving and being able to establish enough of a location to actually *do* something sort of woodcraft and outdoor lore.

I’m the one asking questions here!

I was just confused as to the nature of your mhm. It’s nice to see agreement, there are so many people that spend their time and money on toys for their survival packs, but never bother to fill their head with knowledge of how to use their equipment, gain knowledge and practice skills to supplement their equipment.

I'm more of the opinion that E&E is just a different focus. There's no point in establishing a location when you're supposed to be getting away from enemy patrols that are out looking for you.

While you can die from exposure, that's only your own life. Capture and interrogation by the enemy can result in the deaths of the other members of your team.

Yeah, in a military type situation being able to escape and evade may be of paramount importance, but your average person isn’t in that situation. A lost hiker, a canoer that got dumped in the river, those sorts of survival situations are FAR more likely. Different tools to fix different problems.

[Crimson Wolf]

Which is why having items that can be used in many situations is paramount to a bug out kit, never know what kinda situation might pop up, just ya have to be careful of overdoing it (i.e adding gimmicky items) so not to add too much weight. Course maybe I should limit how much ammo to carry >.>

[molten_dragon]

So I was wondering if anyone else here goes to the range time to time and what their setup is. Just curious how many other D&D and Pathfinder players here are active gun owners.

I'm a gun owner and try to shoot at least once a month. It used to be more often, but my wife's currently pregnant and shouldn't go, and it's not as much fun to go by myself. Plus I've picked up a 2nd expensive hobby in the last couple months and don't have as much money for ammo.

My favorite thing is trap and skeet (although I'm just getting into it), but I enjoy some time on the rifle and pistol ranges too.

I own:

Springfield XDM 9mm with a 4.5" barrel
Colt Rail Gun
Kahr CM9 for daily carry
Remington 870
Ruger SR556

[TheThan]

I’ve been trap and skeet shooting a few times, it’s amazingly fun. The first time I went was the first time I got any extensive shotgun practice in (yes it beat me up, but i didn't complain). There’s just something totally addicting to shooting at a moving target.

[SiuiS]

Which is why having items that can be used in many situations is paramount to a bug out kit, never know what kinda situation might pop up, just ya have to be careful of overdoing it (i.e adding gimmicky items) so not to add too much weight. Course maybe I should limit how much ammo to carry >.>

If you need more than one magazine (A normal one, I wanna say about eight shells for a rifle?), bring a sling. Learn to launch rocks. They're omnipresent and reusable.

[Crimson Wolf]

It's a WASR, basically think an AK but semi auto. I have seven 30 round mags.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you need more than one magazine (A normal one, I wanna say about eight shells for a rifle?), bring a sling. Learn to launch rocks. They're omnipresent and reusable.

If your survival plan includes surviving as a small group or solo for any amount of time, yeah, make and learn to use a sling. Bows are the next step, being more effective but requiring time and energy to make arrows and strings. Guns are only for if you're staying in the area where you are storing your reserves of ammo, such as if you live in a rural town and your strategy is to stay there and work with the other residents to survive in it.

I'd recommend planning with a group if you're taking this seriously. About the bare minimum survival group of hunter-gatherers is 10, and while we may have more technology now, we also have plenty more people who will compete with us. A large group will also have diverse skillsets, so you won't need to be a tailor, a blacksmith, a logger, a farmer, a mechanic, a hunter, a bowyer and fletcher, a fisherman, and a scavenger just to survive.

[SiuiS]

It's a WASR, basically think an AK but semi auto. I have seven 30 round mags.

Unless you plan to run that on single shot, you're wasting a hell of a lot of ammo on sruvival, man. Even one magazine is enough for a good seven kills with the standard four round burst.

If your survival plan includes surviving as a small group or solo for any amount of time, yeah, make and learn to use a sling. Bows are the next step, being more effective but requiring time and energy to make arrows and strings. Guns are only for if you're staying in the area where you are storing your reserves of ammo, such as if you live in a rural town and your strategy is to stay there and work with the other residents to survive in it.

I'd recommend planning with a group if you're taking this seriously. About the bare minimum survival group of hunter-gatherers is 10, and while we may have more technology now, we also have plenty more people who will compete with us. A large group will also have diverse skillsets, so you won't need to be a tailor, a blacksmith, a logger, a farmer, a mechanic, a hunter, a bowyer and fletcher, a fisherman, and a scavenger just to survive.

Bows require upkeep, training, specialized ammo, greater understanding of ballistics and register immediately as a weapon. The proper use of a sling (unlike a bow outside of a first world society) can be figured out with about a day of playing around in a field and resembles a stereotypical baseball pitch. I like bows, but they are far more "apocalypse prep" than they are week long survival trek.

And yes, I have a little commune of sorts grouped together, though I doubt more than three of us are being honest about it.

[J-H]

Unless you're getting a Class 3 license, AKs are single-shot only in the US.

If you're looking at using a gun for defense, 30 rounds goes away pretty quickly. WWII ratios were somewhere in the thousands of rounds of ammo expended per enemy killed for the US. Although that includes air-to-air and air-to-ground fire, it still takes a surprisingly large number of shots once you account for misses, grazes, body armor, suppressive fire, moving targets, cover, concealment, adrenaline- and exhaustion-induced shakiness, etc.

[SiuiS]

Unless you're getting a Class 3 license, AKs are single-shot only in the US.

If you're looking at using a gun for defense, 30 rounds goes away pretty quickly. WWII ratios were somewhere in the thousands of rounds of ammo expended per enemy killed for the US. Although that includes air-to-air and air-to-ground fire, it still takes a surprisingly large number of shots once you account for misses, grazes, body armor, suppressive fire, moving targets, cover, concealment, adrenaline- and exhaustion-induced shakiness, etc.

If you're affected by all that in a survival situation, you've already ****ed up pretty badly. War time and self defense are very, very different. Urban combat is nothing like a home invasion, and frankly if you are attacked by someone in full swat your best bet is to recontextualize the game, not to engage as the smaller fish.

I would rather use my sling to hurl a Molotov into a group like that than engage in a gunfight. Gun fights are war activities not survival activities.

[Gnomvid]

It's a WASR, basically think an AK but semi auto. I have seven 30 round mags.

Wow a soldier in a warzone expected to see combat is normally issued 6-8 mags.

If you're affected by all that in a survival situation, you've already ****ed up pretty badly. War time and self defense are very, very different. Urban combat is nothing like a home invasion, and frankly if you are attacked by someone in full swat your best bet is to recontextualize the game, not to engage as the smaller fish.

I would rather use my sling to hurl a Molotov into a group like that than engage in a gunfight. Gun fights are war activities not survival activities.

Gee how big is your sling? or are you talking Molotov pellets? I bet it would work a lot better just tossing the Molotov using your arm but still that sounds a lot more like a war activity then a survival activity.
Edit: I can't think of any survival situations there would be a need for any Molotov cocktails.

[SiuiS]

Gee how big is your sling? or are you talking Molotov pellets? I bet it would work a lot better just tossing the Molotov using your arm but still that sounds a lot more like a war activity then a survival activity.
Edit: I can't think of any survival situations there would be a need for any Molotov cocktails.

Your sarcasm amuses me for several reasons. One is that a strap is a strap; I can throw a football, a glass bottle and a rock with the same belt and same efficacy – unless you think it's impossible to change the load of a trebuchet?
Two; yes it is a war activity. That's the point of the statement, to say that if this situation occured there are much better thing a to do than engage someone in a gunfight while they wear full riot armor and march in coordinated form.
Three; unless you cannot think of a reason to have anything that burns, anything that holds fluid and anything that can light a fire – all of which are quite literally vital to human survival – then you're not thinking hard enough. I'm not going to tell you how to make a device like this, but I can say it's not hard.

[Asta Kask]

Will you be teaching the art and science of guns to your kids (if they're willing but not eager)?

[TheThan]

While you’re trying to get within distance of your sling, the guy with the hunting rifle is already in range and taking aim.
Wikipedia says that the world record for a sling is 1,434 ft, while impressive; I highly doubt most people (no offense to anyone and their skills) can sling quite that far. Or be able to have any sort of accuracy or hit with authority at that sort of range.

While at that same range, a .30-06 Springfield hunting rifle will hit accurately and with plenty of authority especially if the rifle has a scope mounted on it.

Fire arms are far more effective and easier to use than “primitive” weapons. That is why militaries all over the world have universally adopted them. Primitive weapons like slings, bows, rabbit sticks and other sorts of weapons have their place, but firearms have their place as well. Using these alternative weapons along with trapping, fishing and gathering are an excellent way of saving your (probably limited) supply of ammo. That being said; when dealing with predators of the two legged variety you should probably use your gun, because they will be using theirs.

[Coidzor]

Will you be teaching the art and science of guns to your kids (if they're willing but not eager)?

Probably, so at least they know not to point guns at things they don't want to shoot to kill and are less likely to truck with their dumb friends doing so either.

I went through Scouting, so if I ever sprog, the kids will probably be subjected to that as well. IIRC, I was introduced to BB guns in order to learn proper range etiquette and trigger discipline before I was allowed to handle even a .22 caliber bolt-action rifle, so that's probably what'll happen with any hypothetical offspring.

[J-H]

I favor Airsoft first for training purposes. A BB gun can still break the skin - an airsoft pellet won't.

[TheThan]

BB guns are a great way to introduce children to fire arms. However keep in mind they are not toys and they need to be treated with just as much respect as a “proper” fire arm. I once knew someone who very nearly put out his own twin brother’s eye out with a BB gun. I’ve used mine to kill rabbits, squires, birds and other small animals, so do not underestimate them.


On a more I would like to point out that you really ought to practice with the gun and the ammunition you intend to carry with you. You really want to be as familiar as possible with your weapon and ammunition of choice, in case you are ever thrown into a stressful or dangerous situation you want your training to takeover. You want your training to match your weapon and ammunition because you can be surprised if you use a larger caliber or round than what you train with, which will prevent accidents and may even save your life.

[Gnomvid]

Your sarcasm amuses me for several reasons. One is that a strap is a strap; I can throw a football, a glass bottle and a rock with the same belt and same efficacy – unless you think it's impossible to change the load of a trebuchet?
Two; yes it is a war activity. That's the point of the statement, to say that if this situation occured there are much better thing a to do than engage someone in a gunfight while they wear full riot armor and march in coordinated form.
Three; unless you cannot think of a reason to have anything that burns, anything that holds fluid and anything that can light a fire – all of which are quite literally vital to human survival – then you're not thinking hard enough. I'm not going to tell you how to make a device like this, but I can say it's not hard.

As I grew up in the country living off the land and knowing how to make fire with primitive tools is second nature for me, I cannot see any reason why I would ever need to lug around flammable materials that does not fit in a small pouch fitting in a regular pocket for starting fires, I also know how to get safe drinking water without lugging around a lot of extra containers just in case, if I needed a bug out kit it would take up no more place then a 30-40 liter back pack and that would be mostly extra clothes.
I would be packing a couple of knives and most likely a shotgun with ammo to spend less precious calories to get meat then to try a sling or spear or bow.

[TheThan]

Hold on, there are a lot of different situations that qualify as “survival”.

For all we know SiuiS may end up in a situation where throwing a molotov cocktail at a group of enemies is a perfectly reasonable action.
Not all situations are wilderness survival scenarios (those are the most common, but still). A survival situation could break out at home, or at work, or in the car driving around town, or in the airport waiting for a plane. they can happen at any time in any place.

Being able to “live off the land” is a fine skill set to have, but it isn’t the only skill set available to people and not the only way to survive a disaster.

[Crow]

I favor Airsoft first for training purposes. A BB gun can still break the skin - an airsoft pellet won't.

We use airsoft when we teach CQB to law enforcement teams. I can say that it is an excellent training tool for that purpose.

[SiuiS]

While you’re trying to get within distance of your sling, the guy with the hunting rifle is already in range and taking aim.

Why would I be fighting a sniper in an open football field in a gunfight with a sling as a survival situation? Why is reaching for a sling while already in a sniper's iron sights somehow worse than reaching for a rifle slung across my back while in a sniper's iron sights?

Dial it back down to reasonable. I said carrying thirty magazines is overkill when you could have a few magazines and a sling. Because one is going to wear you out and you're going to use that one tool for everything, and the other is more versatile with less weight, less caloric expenditure and you've got approximately 90' of paracord if you need it.

As I grew up in the country living off the land and knowing how to make fire with primitive tools is second nature for me, I cannot see any reason why I would ever need to lug around flammable materials that does not fit in a small pouch fitting in a regular pocket for starting fires

So a hurricane hits, septic water is everywhere, along with sharp and concealed detritus, but cotton swans and alcohol aren't worth your time? You're stuck in a disaster zone for a week but hey, who needs a tampon, right?

You're doing an awful lot to try to one up me but this isn't a peeing contest. You've already won that; you can stand up and shoot for distance. This is a 'share information and get ideas for efficiency' thing. "I have two more ranks in survival than you" need not apply. Especially when trying to refute the need to have supplies in a city under martial law – or do you regularly expect assaults in riot gear by coordinated squads out in your woods?

[TheThan]

Why would I be fighting a sniper in an open football field in a gunfight with a sling as a survival situation? Why is reaching for a sling while already in a sniper's iron sights somehow worse than reaching for a rifle slung across my back while in a sniper's iron sights?

Dial it back down to reasonable. I said carrying thirty magazines is overkill when you could have a few magazines and a sling. Because one is going to wear you out and you're going to use that one tool for everything, and the other is more versatile with less weight, less caloric expenditure and you've got approximately 90' of paracord if you need it.



So a hurricane hits, septic water is everywhere, along with sharp and concealed detritus, but cotton swans and alcohol aren't worth your time? You're stuck in a disaster zone for a week but hey, who needs a tampon, right?

You're doing an awful lot to try to one up me but this isn't a peeing contest. You've already won that; you can stand up and shoot for distance. This is a 'share information and get ideas for efficiency' thing. "I have two more ranks in survival than you" need not apply. Especially when trying to refute the need to have supplies in a city under martial law – or do you regularly expect assaults in riot gear by coordinated squads out in your woods?

Who said you had to be in an open field? Anyway I’m saying that relying on your primitive weapons against people armed with modern weapons is generally a bad idea. A few extra magazines and a primitive weapon like a sling is reasonable. It sounded like you were advocating the sling above all others though.

I’m more concerned by an unorganized group of rioters than an organized forced of police or military personnel which are probably on my side (or at the very least, completely neutral to my presence). Speaking of which that is the only situation I can come up with where tossing a Molotov cocktail is feasible outside of a warzone. A group of thugs, rioters, thieves etc are entering your area with intent to destroy/hurt/kill your property and people. A well placed Molotov before they spread out might just end the threat before they become harder targets to neutralize. But then at that point it’s probably become a warzone anyway…

Humans need four basic things: shelter, fire, water and food. Guns only provide one of those (they also provide protection, but that’s not a constant necessity, the other four are). So it's best to prioritize those four things above anything else you're planning to store up or pack on your back in the case of an emergency.

you know, maybe we should create a preparedness thread and move the conversation over there.

[SiuiS]

Who said you had to be in an open field?

Deduction. An armed belligerent has me in sights. I am not aware. If I was aware, I would either be armed, be hidden, or be moving. There are no terrain pieces which can obstruct line of fire – and be aware that lying in a gutter is sufficient cover in many situations – and I cannot assume I have broken line of effect. The only feasible reason someone has me in their sights and I'm not aware is a distance advantage in a clear field of operations.

Why they're shooting me for grabbing a sling is beyond me though. That's basically shooting me for scratching myself.

Anyway I’m saying that relying on your primitive weapons against people armed with modern weapons is generally a bad idea. A few extra magazines and a primitive weapon like a sling is reasonable. It sounded like you were advocating the sling above all others though.

Forest and trees. A firebomb is not a primitive weapon. I did say I would use a delivery device to apply chemical attack to make up for my egregious disadvantage in the strict Balistic force arena. I am just shying away from elaboration because if someone asks for details I can either get myself banned from the forum for providing illicit instructions or I can get heckled because I can't respond.

A sling would work just as well with a grenade if you got the timing right.

I’m more concerned by an unorganized group of rioters than an organized forced of police or military personnel which are probably on my side (or at the very least, completely neutral to my presence.

Go back one more; someone justified excessive ammo because they would be dealing with cover fire, flanking, armored coordinated opponents. My response was purposefully absurd, because an absurd situation requires an absurd answer. I was shutting down a justification, not saying everyone should pack fire bombs and cave man weapons.

Humans need four basic things: shelter, fire, water and food. Guns only provide one of those (they also provide protection, but that’s not a constant necessity, the other four are). So it's best to prioritize those four things above anything else you're planning to store up or pack on your back in the case of an emergency.

you know, maybe we should create a preparedness thread and move the conversation over there.

I would say that a gun provides none of those things, myself. You could hunt with one, but the ordered set of people who can dress a field kill is much smaller than the set of people who could kill an animal with a gun.

Although with a big enough drum may and a tripod you might have shelter

[TheThan]

Deduction. An armed belligerent has me in sights. I am not aware. If I was aware, I would either be armed, be hidden, or be moving. There are no terrain pieces which can obstruct line of fire – and be aware that lying in a gutter is sufficient cover in many situations – and I cannot assume I have broken line of effect. The only feasible reason someone has me in their sights and I'm not aware is a distance advantage in a clear field of operations.

Doesn’t using a sling require quite a bit of room to operate? That may be a factor in deploying one. Bullets can punch through some things, and untrained people may very well shoot at sounds they hear, so even in cover, you’re not entirely safe from gun fire. Unless you’re lobbing your ammo over cover, slings require line of site, heck any ranged weapon that doesn’t rely upon area of effect does, so I guess that’s mostly a wash.

Why they're shooting me for grabbing a sling is beyond me though. That's basically shooting me for scratching myself.

A lot of people are going to be scared, jumpy, want to take what you have or just want to watch the world burn.

Forest and trees. A firebomb is not a primitive weapon. I did say I would use a delivery device to apply chemical attack to make up for my egregious disadvantage in the strict Balistic force arena. I am just shying away from elaboration because if someone asks for details I can either get myself banned from the forum for providing illicit instructions or I can get heckled because I can't respond.

A sling would work just as well with a grenade if you got the timing right.

I Never said a firebomb was a primitive weapon. I never thought of a sling as a delivery device for one though. Good luck with the grenade/sling option though.
I live in a high fire danger zone, throwing a firebomb in the wild is not only is arson, but also eliminates all of my natural resources and would probably get me killed. so throwing one in my neck of the woods an incredibly bad idea since i am not going to be able to put it out.

But yeah, we need to be careful don’t want to get move into that territory.

Go back one more; someone justified excessive ammo because they would be dealing with cover fire, flanking, armored coordinated opponents. My response was purposefully absurd, because an absurd situation requires an absurd answer. I was shutting down a justification, not saying everyone should pack fire bombs and cave man weapons.



I would say that a gun provides none of those things, myself. You could hunt with one, but the ordered set of people who can dress a field kill is much smaller than the set of people who could kill an animal with a gun.

Although with a big enough drum may and a tripod you might have shelter

Absurdity is hard to tell on via text sometimes; I get it a bit more.

Hunting is high caloric exercise (well if you’re stalking, ambushing is a quite a bit better about it), you need enough water to metabolize that meat (if successful) and moderately good degree of skill to be successful. Trapping takes time to work and unfeasible if you’re on the move. Fishing takes a body of water with fish in it and may be quite rare depending on your environment, not to mention it can be time consuming. Gathering is dangerous as mistaking the wrong plant (or fungus) can make you very dead or very sick, and it’s just as season dependent as hunting (if not more) and also a high calorie exercise. Packing food on your back/ hoarding is high calorie if you’re moving about and very short term to moderate term as there’s a limit to how much you can take with you or store. Gardening/farming is a high calorie exercise, takes time, takes water, is season dependent and not suitable for someone on the move. (That being said, gardening is probably someone's best bet for long term sustainable option).

Basically providing food is the hardest part of survival.

As someone once said, “hunting is like sex, most people think they’re good at it, but they’re actually pretty terrible at it.”

[Brother Oni]

Especially when trying to refute the need to have supplies in a city under martial law – or do you regularly expect assaults in riot gear by coordinated squads out in your woods?

Only when in Glasgow on a weekend.

[SiuiS]

Doesn’t using a sling require quite a bit of room to operate?

Surprisingly, no. You're likely used to the idea of whirling the thing above your head to generate speed and then releasing, right? A much easier or better or however you want to put it way is basically a baseball pitch. Or more of a cricket pitch? Stand angled about 60° off, sling in dominant hand. Drop the load into it, step, pivot and bring dominant hand sharply up over your head. The motion is basically a trebuchet swing, and unlike the whirl and release uses the same compensation mechanisms for height and distance that throwing does – the sort of animal calculations you pull off as you go to make a challenging throw, where your body hesitates and adjusts to get it right or close to right.

Absurdity is hard to tell on via text sometimes; I get it a bit more.

Indeed, I've been thinking about that all day. Especially the peeing contest bit. The idea is to not only say you win but that it's absurd to worry about it so that everyone laughs. But I think it just comes off as insulting in hindsight. I wanted to shut down the competition but I didn't need to basically resort to name calling to do it. So Gnomvid, I apologize.

As someone once said, “hunting is like sex, most people think they’re good at it, but they’re actually pretty terrible at it.”

This is true. I know for a fact I would have difficulty killing an animal even for food. But this is also divergent, I ama till operating on the survival mindset of get out of dodge. That should not take more than three days, and I know I can force march for three days if I have water but no food.

Only when in Glasgow on a weekend.

... Okay, yeah. I lost that one, points to you.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Sorry to interrupt Jericho plot summary survival talk, but I'm interested in improving my (rifle) shooting skills beyond what I can figure out on my own. Is there a good book/YouTube series someone here can recommend? I.e. something they've either used, or have seen and agree that it's solid.

[J-H]

The Art of the Rifle, by Jeff Cooper

[TheThan]

Surprisingly, no. You're likely used to the idea of whirling the thing above your head to generate speed and then releasing, right? A much easier or better or however you want to put it way is basically a baseball pitch. Or more of a cricket pitch? Stand angled about 60° off, sling in dominant hand. Drop the load into it, step, pivot and bring dominant hand sharply up over your head. The motion is basically a trebuchet swing, and unlike the whirl and release uses the same compensation mechanisms for height and distance that throwing does – the sort of animal calculations you pull off as you go to make a challenging throw, where your body hesitates and adjusts to get it right or close to right.

That’s interesting. I’ve only seen the overhead whirl method and the underhand method, sort of like pitching a soft ball (so backwards from what you describe). I learned something new.

This is true. I know for a fact I would have difficulty killing an animal even for food. But this is also divergent, I ama till operating on the survival mindset of get out of dodge. That should not take more than three days, and I know I can force march for three days if I have water but no food.

Honestly I’d have trouble cleaning and skinning animals. I can handle the gore factor, but It’s something I’m simply not practiced at, reading books and watching YouTube videos can only teach you so much.

*shrugs* it’s just one of my faults.

It’s surprising how far a person can travel on foot when the have to.

Sorry to interrupt Jericho plot summary survival talk, but I'm interested in improving my (rifle) shooting skills beyond what I can figure out on my own. Is there a good book/YouTube series someone here can recommend? I.e. something they've either used, or have seen and agree that it's solid.

Jerry Miculek has a video on youtube, but that’s more competitive shooting, so it might not be what you’re looking for.

Everything I learned my dear ‘ol pa taught me.

[Don Julio Anejo]

The Art of the Rifle, by Jeff Cooper

Thanks! I'll check it out next chance I get to hit up a bookstore.