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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Time Stop shenanigans

    Going by the Time Stop errata FAQ, it's now an instantaneous effect that gives 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. No Persist.

    I'm in an epic game and looking at a few shenanigans. I have some Feats I can apply for free via rods and stuff.

    Quicken and Intensify (maximize and double dice numbers). That makes it last for 9 rounds.

    However, I wanted to find out how Time Stop works with the ability to cast multiple spells per round, because I also have Multispell once.

    So, my rounds look like Quickened Spell, Quickened Spell, Regular Spell.

    If I use a Quickened Intensified Time Stop, how does that interact with the rest of my actions?

    Does it go like this:
    • Quickened Intensified Time Stop 1
    • -- 9 rounds inside Time Stop
    • Quickened Spell
    • Regular Spell


    Or like this:
    • Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    • The rest of that round exists inside the Time Stop
    • Remaining 8 rounds of Time Stop


    They would both take up one full round as observed by a third party, but they're dramatically different in effect.

    Obviously I like the first option better.
    Last edited by WebTiefling; 2014-08-18 at 06:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    First of all, an intensified Time Stop would last 10 rounds, not 9. It applies to the variable numeric effect, not just to the die roll. The variable numeric effect is the (effective) duration, which is 1d4+1 rounds. So you maximize that (5) and then double that (10).

    Second, if it is the second interpretation, then you can compensate by just making the Time Stop your last action of the round.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    First of all, an intensified Time Stop would last 10 rounds, not 9. It applies to the variable numeric effect, not just to the die roll. The variable numeric effect is the (effective) duration, which is 1d4+1 rounds. So you maximize that (5) and then double that (10).
    Ahh, you're right. 10 rounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Second, if it is the second interpretation, then you can compensate by just making the Time Stop your last action of the round.
    Would the fact that it is now an Instantaneous effect change things?

    I know that casting a spell with a duration (Haste for example) and then casting it again on the same target before the first instance expires overlaps the spells.

    So if you cast Haste, lasting for 10 rounds. Then cast it again on round 10, you'll get another 10 rounds.

    However, does that still work when the spell is Instantaneous instead of having a duration?
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by WebTiefling View Post
    Going by the Time Stop errata, it's now an instantaneous effect that gives 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. No Persist.
    Um, where is this errata you speak of? I'm not aware of any 3.5 content being released for years, errata included. Could you please link?
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Um, where is this errata you speak of? I'm not aware of any 3.5 content being released for years, errata included. Could you please link?
    It's back in their old errata.

    http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answ...errata-and-faq

    MainFAQv06272003 file.

    Here's what they say on page 60 (bold is theirs):
    Assuming you are high enough level to cast a persistent time stop spell, could you use the virtual 24 hours the spell lasts to rest and recover your spells?
    You can’t make time stop persistent. (Its duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.)
    Changing it to Instantaneous also rules out Extend Spell.
    Last edited by WebTiefling; 2014-08-18 at 05:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by WebTiefling View Post
    It's back in their old errata.

    http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answ...errata-and-faq

    MainFAQv06272003 file.

    Here's what they say on page 60 (bold is theirs):


    Changing it to Instantaneous also rules out Extend Spell.
    The FAQ is not errata, it's basically just DM rulings by the dude(ette(s)) at Custserv. Not backed up by the rules necessarily, and its definitely cannot change them.

    Anyway, more relevantly to the main topic, I do beleive Multispell would let you get more spells per round in the time stop. You get several complete rounds within the time stop, so all /round benefits accrue several times.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    The FAQ is not errata, it's basically just DM rulings by the dude(ette(s)) at Custserv. Not backed up by the rules necessarily, and its definitely cannot change them.

    Anyway, more relevantly to the main topic, I do beleive Multispell would let you get more spells per round in the time stop. You get several complete rounds within the time stop, so all /round benefits accrue several times.
    I understand the FAQ vs Errata, and I should have been saying the FAQ. The DM has ruled that this is how Time Stop works in this game.

    Yeah, I get that I would have multiple spells per round in the Time Stop. That's not the main issue.

    My question is whether I could do this:
    Round 1:
    • Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    • -- 10 rounds inside Time Stop (including all my multispell/quickened/etc stuff)
    • Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    • -- 10 rounds inside Time Stop (including all my multispell/quickened/etc stuff)
    • Regular Intensified Time Stop
    • -- 10 rounds inside Time Stop (including all my multispell/quickened/etc stuff)


    Or am I limited to:
    Round 1:
    • Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    • Remainder of my round 1 happening inside the Time Stop
    • Remaining 9 rounds of Time Stop

    Obviously, I would like number 1.

    Any idea on rulings on which way a Quickened Time Stop would work?
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    There is no errata.

    The duration on Time Stop is 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, and as such, is Persistable, houserules notwithstanding.
    Last edited by Rubik; 2014-08-18 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    There is no errata.

    The duration on Time Stop is 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, and as such, is Persistable, houserules notwithstanding.
    Yes, thank you. There is the FAQ, though, and the DM is going with the FAQ.

    So, given that, how does an Instantaneous Time Stop work with multiple quickened spells per round?
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    The rules don't really cover this well, due to the implementation of the houserule. Normally, they would overlap like buff spells do, because its a duration, just like any other buffs. However, with this houserule in place, I believe the most appropriate response is to "nest" them, since its instantaneous. So it should look something like this:

    Time Stop
    -5 rounds
    --Time Stop
    --10rounds
    -remaining 5 rounds from 1st time stop
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    The duration on Time Stop is 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, and as such, is Persistable, houserules notwithstanding.
    Yep. From 1D4+1 rounds in a standard action, to 1D4+1 rounds in 24 hours. It's like an incantatrix's quintessence!

    That said, NecroticPlague's solution is the mathematically correct way of dealing with nesting, stacking effects. Basically, treat it as a literal stack, and LIFO.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Yep. From 1D4+1 rounds in a standard action, to 1D4+1 rounds in 24 hours. It's like an incantatrix's quintessence!
    Uh...no. There's no way that anyone could logically reach that conclusion, assuming they pay attention at all.

    The 1d4+1 rounds is what's listed as the duration, which changes to 24 hours.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    Uh...no. There's no way that anyone could logically reach that conclusion, assuming they pay attention at all.

    The 1d4+1 rounds is what's listed as the duration, which changes to 24 hours.
    If you're going by what's listed in the duration slot, then that's not a time at all. It's apparent time, as it plainly says. Time stop doesn't have a duration of 1D4+1 rounds, it has a duration that "feels like" that long. Which is why, side note, I don't consider it a legal persist target from the getgo.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    If you're going by what's listed in the duration slot, then that's not a time at all. It's apparent time, as it plainly says. Time stop doesn't have a duration of 1D4+1 rounds, it has a duration that "feels like" that long. Which is why, side note, I don't consider it a legal persist target from the getgo.
    Tell me: where in the wording of Persistent Spell does it say anything about "apparent time"? "Apparent time" is still time, after all.

    So show me the quote where it disqualifies Time Stop, please.

    Otherwise, what happens to a Persistent Spell's duration in a flowing time demiplane? A Planar Bubble spell? A planar shepherd's planar bubble? A Time Hop?
    Last edited by Rubik; 2014-08-18 at 07:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    It speeds the wizard up until they can act 1D4+1 rounds' worth of actions (and therefore feel that a similar amount of time has passed). Why?
    Because it squeezes a large amount of the wizard's time into a small amount of everyone else's time by speeding his timeframe up really, really fast.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Time Stop's duration is "1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text". Persistent Spell changes the duration to "24 hours." Nowhere in the new duration does it say how much apparent time the spell grants, so it defaults to the spell description: "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time." Ergo, you get 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time over the period of 24 hours.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Werephilosopher View Post
    Time Stop's duration is "1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text". Persistent Spell changes the duration to "24 hours." Nowhere in the new duration does it say how much apparent time the spell grants, so it defaults to the spell description: "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time." Ergo, you get 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time over the period of 24 hours.
    Or you change the duration to 24 hours, and that time is apparent time, like the 1d4+1 rounds is.

    You know, by following the rules, since the "instantaneous" part of the spell is not in the duration, which is what Persistent Spell changes.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    Or you change the duration to 24 hours, and that time is apparent time
    That's debatable. "24 hours," as given by Persistent Spell, is not the same as "24 hours to you, but for everyone else it's a single moment." "Apparent time" is obviously different from regular time.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Werephilosopher View Post
    That's debatable. "24 hours," as given by Persistent Spell, is not the same as "24 hours to you, but for everyone else it's a single moment." "Apparent time" is obviously different from regular time.
    And what does that mean when you're in a Planar Bubble when you try to Persist something? Or you get Time Hopped during the duration? Do the durations expire according to the time you occupy, or the time everyone else occupies?

    Durations for effects attached to a target have to run according to apparent time of the target they affect, since the apparent time affects him and everything on him.

    Otherwise, how would durations work for Time Hop, Planar Bubble, and Teleport Through Time?

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Werephilosopher View Post
    That's debatable. "24 hours," as given by Persistent Spell, is not the same as "24 hours to you, but for everyone else it's a single moment." "Apparent time" is obviously different from regular time.
    (without the homebrew I'm dealing with....)

    Maximized Time Stop gives 4+1=5 rounds for the caster to do things on his own turn.

    Extended Time Stop gives 2*(1d4+1) rounds for the caster to do things on his own turn.

    Extended Maximized Time Stop gives 2*(4+1)=10 rounds for the caster to do things on his own turn.

    Extended Empowered Maximized Time Stop gives 2*1.5*(4+1)=15 rounds for the caster to do things on his own turn.

    Extended Intensified Time Stop gives 2*2*(4+1)=20 rounds for the caster to do things on his own turn.

    Extended Intensified Time Stop doesn't make the caster feel like 20 rounds are passing, but only 1d4+1 rounds of actual actions can be taken. That's ridiculous.

    Persist Spell works exactly like all the other metamagic effects - the caster gains that many rounds of actions during his own turn. With Persist Spell, it's a whole 24 hours worth of rounds of actions.

    Yes, that's wildly broken, but it's completely RAW. If you want to nix it, you're going to have to just out and out Homebrew rule that Time Stop can't be Persisted.

    Nothing wrong with that, but don't try to twist things to somehow say that it's RAW that Time Stop can't be Persisted.
    Last edited by WebTiefling; 2014-08-19 at 09:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    The rules don't really cover this well, due to the implementation of the houserule. Normally, they would overlap like buff spells do, because its a duration, just like any other buffs. However, with this houserule in place, I believe the most appropriate response is to "nest" them, since its instantaneous. So it should look something like this:

    Time Stop
    -5 rounds
    --Time Stop
    --10rounds
    -remaining 5 rounds from 1st time stop
    I think you're right.

    I guess it's like casting any other Instantaneous spell (Fireball) while in a Time Stop. The Fireball takes effect (within Time Stop limitations) and everything continues along.

    Each round (for this character) contains two quickened spells and a regular spell. Just like a round worth of Fireballs would work out like:

    Round 1
    Quickened Intensified Fireball
    Quickened Intensified Fireball
    Regular Intensified Fireball

    The Instantaneous Time Stops would work out like:

    Round 1
    Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    - 10 rounds of actions
    Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    - 10 rounds of actions
    Intensified Time Stop
    - 10 rounds of actions

    Instantaneous Time Stops inside Instantaneous Time Stop would be (taken to a silly number of stacks):

    Round 1
    Quickened Intensified Time Stop (A)
    - 10 rounds of actions from (A)
    - On round 10 of (A) another Quickened Intensified Time Stop (A.1)
    - - - 10 rounds of actions from (A.1)
    - - - On round 10 of (A.1) another Quickened Intensified Time Stop (A.1.a)
    - - - - - - 10 rounds of actions from (A.1.a)
    - - - Remainder of round 10 of Time Stop (A.1)
    - Remainder of round 10 of Time Stop (A)
    Quickened Spell
    Regular Spell

    Thank you for walking me through that! Muchas gracias Necroticplague!
    Last edited by WebTiefling; 2014-08-19 at 10:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    It is worth noting that, if you have the spell slots, nothing is preventing you from:

    round 1
    Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    - 9 apparent rounds of stuff
    - 1 round of Intensified Time Stop
    -- 9 apparent rounds of stuff
    -- 1 round of Intensified Time Stop
    --- 9 rounds... etc. etc. until out of appropriate spell slots
    Quickened Intensified Time Stop (assuming you still have one)
    - 10 apparent rounds of stuff
    Intensified Time Stop (assuming you still have one)
    - 10 apparent rounds of stuff

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    It is worth noting that, if you have the spell slots, nothing is preventing you from:

    round 1
    Quickened Intensified Time Stop
    - 9 apparent rounds of stuff
    - 1 round of Intensified Time Stop
    -- 9 apparent rounds of stuff
    -- 1 round of Intensified Time Stop
    --- 9 rounds... etc. etc. until out of appropriate spell slots
    Quickened Intensified Time Stop (assuming you still have one)
    - 10 apparent rounds of stuff
    Intensified Time Stop (assuming you still have one)
    - 10 apparent rounds of stuff
    Oh definitely. It's going to be tough to get an Intensified Time Stop in there even with metamagic reducers unless you REALLY focus on that particular technique. Rod of Epic Intensify Metamagic is my route, so that's why I was limiting it to 3.

    But yeah, as long as you have the slots and techniques to get the Time Stops in there, you can stack it to Crazy Town and back.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Conveniently, unlike Night Sticks (which permit you to use additional Turn/Rebuke attemtps), metamagic rods explicitly apply the metamagic, themselves, 3/day. So if you get two, you can do it 6 times. 3, 9 times. etc.

    The distinction seems irrelevant, but is important to whether you can pass the rod around (as you can with a night stick) or can use one up and pick up another (as you can with a metamagic rod). You can't do the former with a metamagic rod (at least, not and get a full 3 uses/day from the rod for each person; you get 3 uses/day period, divided up as you like amongst all those sharing it); you can't do the latter with a Night Stick (as your uses/day is still YOUR limit; the night stick jsut temporarily changes it to be greater while you wield it, kind-of like extra hp from a higher con score).

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by WebTiefling View Post
    ...
    Extended Empowered Maximized Time Stop gives 2*1.5*(4+1)=15 rounds for the caster to do things on his own turn.
    ...
    Not quite, an Extended Empowered maximized Time Stop gives 2*(4+1)+((1d4+1)/2) rounds for the caster to do things. That gives you 11 or 12 rounds.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    Not quite, an Extended Empowered maximized Time Stop gives 2*(4+1)+((1d4+1)/2) rounds for the caster to do things. That gives you 11 or 12 rounds.
    You can apply metamagic in the order you wish.

    Start with 1d4+1

    Maximize: 4+1

    Empower: (4+1)*1.5

    Extend: ((4+1)*1.5)*2

    Extended Empowered Maximized Time Stop: (4+1)*1.5*2 = (5)*3 = 15
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by WebTiefling View Post
    You can apply metamagic in the order you wish.

    Start with 1d4+1

    Maximize: 4+1

    Empower: (4+1)*1.5

    Extend: ((4+1)*1.5)*2

    Extended Empowered Maximized Time Stop: (4+1)*1.5*2 = (5)*3 = 15
    Incorrect. Empower specifically calls out that combining it with Maximize still requires you to roll and multiply the roll by .5 to determine what Empower adds.

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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    Quote Originally Posted by WebTiefling View Post
    You can apply metamagic in the order you wish.

    Start with 1d4+1

    Maximize: 4+1

    Empower: (4+1)*1.5

    Extend: ((4+1)*1.5)*2

    Extended Empowered Maximized Time Stop: (4+1)*1.5*2 = (5)*3 = 15
    Quote Originally Posted by d20PFSRD.com
    An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
    It doesn't really matter in what order you apply it, the Maximize Spell feat says the benefits are separate.
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    Default Re: Time Stop shenanigans

    I hadn't noticed that!

    Huh, ok.

    Extended Empowered Maximized Time Stop = ((4+1) + (1d4+1)/2) * 2 = 10 + (1 or 2) = 11 or 12.

    I had never noticed that little sentence at the bottom of the description. Funky.
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