Monk 20 vs Fighter 20

[dextercorvia]

The monk need strength, dexterity, wisdom and constitution. All to keep his AC up, his damage reasonable and enough HP to survive.

The fighter need strength and constitution like the monk but need less dexterity and doesn't need wisdom.

Citation needed.

Both are going to have Pounce and be dumping AC with Shocktrooper. Which means if either doesn't incapacitate during the first round, they are dead.

[Seppo87]

@dextercorvia
Actually I'm expecting a lockdown opponent. The sheer number of feats allows a Fighter to easily access thicket of blades.
Well, it *could* be a charger.
It could be both.

As for races, are you still okay with the LA +3 thing, Seppo87?

Yes, as long as they don't give you non-monk, non-fighter advantages that cannot be reasonably countered via monk or fighter class features

i.e. regeneration is no good, flight is no good... sla that do things unrelated with monk or fighter are not good...
claws are okay, size and reach are ok, that's combat stuff after all

[AvatarVecna]

Yes, as long as they don't give you non-monk, non-fighter advantages that cannot be reasonably countered via monk or fighter class features

i.e. regeneration is no good, flight is no good... sla that do things unrelated with monk or fighter are not good...
claws are okay, size and reach are ok, that's combat stuff after all

I'll just assume that Powerful Build helps natural weapons/unarmed strike, then?

[Seppo87]

I'll just assume that Powerful Build helps natural weapons/unarmed strike, then?

It doesn't as far as I know.

[Segev]

It says he's capable of wielding weapons for creatures a size category larger. It doesn't say his own unarmed strikes count as such. He could use gauntlets for a bigger creature, though, and get their damage, without penalty.

[Vaz]

Citation needed.

Both are going to have Pounce and be dumping AC with Shocktrooper. Which means if either doesn't incapacitate during the first round, they are dead.

How do they get pounce though? The feats which allow it highly specific.

If we assume that they roll average with say 14 Con, a Fighter has 155ish HP, the monk 135ish HP.

A Monk with maxed Wis has an AC of 20, while the Fighter has maybe 16, 18 with a shield, and that is not including defensive fighting or things like Pearl of Black Doubt.

A Fighter not only has a higher BAB. Decisive Strike Monk has an attack bonus of maybe 19 with Weapon finesse, while a fighter maybe around 26 ish. Higher, even, if Ancestral Relic is allowed.

[Seppo87]

The numbers will definitely be higher than that.

[lytokk]

Keep in mind the fighter will have access to (though not necessarily using) the weapon focus line. With it only being 4 feats out of the fighter's 11, it can easily negate any damage the monk has over the fighter unarmed, and with a bonus to accuracy to enable the fighter to power attack for an even greater amount without sacrificing damage over the monk. Granted, I don't expect the fighter in this situation to do this, but it is possible.

[Lans]

How do they get pounce though? The feats .

In arnum route. Takes 2 feats and martial monk can do it in one. Fighter has maybe 4 feats over the monk due to martial monk being able to skip prereqs

[Seppo87]

Martial Monk is Dragon Magazine only, which we agreed to ban.

Yeah I know I know. Makes everything so much more difficult.

[9mm]

So... just to confirm 3.5 or PF? Cause it actually makes a hell of a difference.

[Lans]

Martial Monk is Dragon Magazine only, which we agreed to ban.

Yeah I know I know. Makes everything so much more difficult.

Really? I missed that. It still coming down to who goes first

[Lans]

So... just to confirm 3.5 or PF? Cause it actually makes a hell of a difference.

Or 3.pf for that matter

[Seppo87]

So... just to confirm 3.5 or PF? Cause it actually makes a hell of a difference.

as already confirmed by OP, this is 3.5

[Vaz]

In arnum route. Takes 2 feats and martial monk can do it in one. Fighter has maybe 4 feats over the monk due to martial monk being able to skip prereqs

Incarnum is Natural Attacks only (Sphinx Claws, unless there is another I've forgotten). Natural Attacks do not include Unarmed Strikes.

[emeraldstreak]

Actually op didnt ban dragon magazine but I'm not opposed to examining the challenge under any premises.

Overall i expect the monks damage die to be more useful than the fighters +5 BAB and it'll come down to the fighter executing a tactical feat squeeze.

[emeraldstreak]

Incarnum is Natural Attacks only (Sphinx Claws, unless there is another I've forgotten). Natural Attacks do not include Unarmed Strikes.

the monks attack is also a natural attack. thats basic 3.5

[Emperor Tippy]

Assuming all sources allowed and no magic items then the Monk wins if he is built well and played smart.

Invisible Fist, Wall Fighter, Martial (or Cobra Strike) Monk 20. Use Martial Study for Child of Shadow.

Then fight as a hit and run skirmisher. Use full speed tumbles along with Spring Attack to hit and retreat without provoking AoO's. Since you are always moving more than 10 feet you also get concealment from Child of Shadow. Once you have attacked, use the Invisibility from Invisible Fist to go invisible and then make a Hide Check. Since you have attacked that turn you take -20 to the check but being Invisible gives you +20 so that cancels out and since you should be 45+ feet away from the fighter, he takes a -4+ penalty on his spot check.

You hide, sneak around while you wait for your Invisibility to recharge, and then repeat and keep doing it until the fighter is dead.

Without magic items the Fighter is highly unlikely to ever manage much and even if he does strike at you with a standard attack your DR 10/magic will reduce that significantly and Wholeness of Body gives you an extra 40 HP to work with.

You also have 1 use of Dimension Door and 20 rounds of Eternalness to help you if the Fighter pulls off something tricky.

---
The Monk's best class feature before ACF's and variants is his movement speed and if you use it to your advantage you can hit far outside your normal weight class.

[Vaz]

the monks attack is also a natural attack. thats basic 3.5

I am AFB but this will have to do for now

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons

A monks unarmed strike counts as natural ONLY for the purposes of spells which enhance it. Neither does it meet the prerequisities for natural attacks.

[emeraldstreak]

I am AFB but this will have to do for now

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons

A monks unarmed strike counts as natural ONLY for the purposes of spells which enhance it. Neither does it meet the prerequisities for natural attacks.

LOL

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm


A monks unarmed strike counts as natural weapon for both spells and effects. Get it? These effects can be anything in the system.

[Vaz]

Spells and effects which improve natural weapon/manufactured weapons.

You having pounce doesn't improve the weapon though. It improves you (if it is a natural weapon), but it itself isn't anything of either. There is a difference. Feel free to homebrew otherwise.

As stated before, a monk isn't proficient with its own unarmed strike, so what makes the rest of the class any better written?

[Vogonjeltz]

Quick Question.
Lv20 Monk vs a Lv20 Fighter
Unarmed Combat specialists both
Who wins?

It depends. What are their stats? Feats? Skills? Equipment? Names? (kidding on that last one). What happens may differ if they have the same stats, or focus on different stats, ditto for feats/skills/equipment.

On the whole, I'm inclined to say the Monk usually wins courtesy of the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, aka Quivering Palm. Let's say the Monk pumped their Wisdom score, they could easily hit a DC of 34, The fighter would need at least an additional +2 to their fort save to survive this with anything less than a natural 20. So we have at least one instagib scenario that the Fighter can't replicate.

Stunning Fist. Monks would have at least 20 daily uses, Fighter would only have at least 5 daily uses. (Monk is more likely to have high Wisdom, for the armor and DC benefit)

Diamond Body. Monks wallows in a potent contact poison (to which they are immune) and lets the Fighter grapple them. Instant death for the Fighter.

If the Fighter doesn't pump Wisdom, they can't get nice things (tm):
Pain Touch, Freezing the Lifeblood, Rapid Stunning, Sun School, Weakening Touch

Pain Touch + focusing on Stunning Fist could mean no chance at all of the Fighter getting a turn. Indeed Taking Rapid Stunning 3 times would allow a Monk to employ 4 stunning fist attempts per round. Easily enough to ensure a constantly paralyzed, nauseated Fighter.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I just want to say that VoP screws Monks by removing his best class feature: cross-class ranks in UMD and partially-charged wands.

[Flickerdart]

Let's say the Monk pumped their Wisdom score, they could easily hit a DC of 34, The fighter would need at least an additional +2 to their fort save to survive this with anything less than a natural 20.

+12 base
+6 Constitution (base 16, +6 item)
+5 Cloak of Resistance
1d20+23 vs 34 - the fighter has a 50% chance of succeeding against the monk's best possible DC with a hilariously cheap gp investment into items he would want anyway. This gets even sadder if he spends as much in Constitution (a much better stat than Wisdom) as you are spending on Wisdom - he beats the DC on a 3 or above. You're never going to win an ability score race because (10+10+WIS) is never going to be higher than (1d20+12+5+CON) due to the advantage of +2 on the base save and +5 from a dirt-cheap cloak.

Try again. Pro tip: Fort saves aren't the way to go on this one. In fact, saving throws are probably not the way to go at all - Steadfast Determination is a nasty customer, and the Fighter's many feats mean he can afford it pretty easily. Do monks get anything that hits Reflex? That could be worth while.

[emeraldstreak]

Spells and effects which improve natural weapon/manufactured weapons.

You having pounce doesn't improve the weapon though. It improves you (if it is a natural weapon), but it itself isn't anything of either. There is a difference. Feel free to homebrew otherwise.

As stated before, a monk isn't proficient with its own unarmed strike, so what makes the rest of the class any better written?

If you want well-written buy some 4E.


***

Leaving this as a starting resource page for monk fans. Obviously a straight Monk 20 can access only a limited number of the listed tricks, but even so it's a start for damage. As for battlefield control, I'm very "rusty" when it comes to 3.5 but I think I'll be able to dig some interesting stuff.

Emperor Tippy's post is interesting, however beating the fighter via stealth superiority is not as throrough as beating him in the direct smackdown.

[Emperor Tippy]

Emperor Tippy's post is interesting, however beating the fighter via stealth superiority is not as throrough as beating him in the direct smackdown.

In a straight up face punch fest the Fighter is going to be pretty much any other PHB class (and a hell of a lot of non PHB classes). At least if the Fighter is built for face punching.

The Fighter is a front line, close quarters, melee combatant. It's the best possible situation for virtually every fighter build.

The Monk is a hit and run, strike from stealth, skirmisher and guerrilla. It is at its worst in a straight up, close quarters, melee fight.


---
Rogue 1/ Monk 10/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 1 is one of the best non magical skirmishers in the entire game and with the right magical support via items it can hand a party of moderate op ECL 20 characters their heads.

[Flickerdart]

Leaving this as a starting resource page for monk fans.

>Custom magic items
>Epic magic items with sub-epic pricing
>Doesn't know how size scaling for damage dice works
>Colossal+ size category while not being an epic dragon

Sure is some guide you got there.

[Seppo87]

Rogue 1/ Monk 10/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 1 is one of the best non magical skirmishers in the entire game and with the right magical support via items it can hand a party of moderate op ECL 20 characters their heads.

Rogue is there for Staggering Strike I guess?

Swordsage for shadow teleportations mainly?

Are there any reasons to have Monk10/Sws1 instead of Monk6/Sws5?

The Monk is a hit and run, strike from stealth, skirmisher and guerrilla. It is at its worst in a straight up, close quarters, melee fight

You're basically right, but a monk could easily be optimized to have enough AC to not be hit easily while still dishing enough damage to be a threat.

Just using Greater Mighty Wallop on a Finesse monk with maxed dex and a good equip, for example, pretty much achieves this. (AC 50 is easy, 70+ is tricky but possible, well you obviously know)
You can get Divine Power somehow? (item is fine at some tables) Great, add in TWF for maximum fun.

Such a monk could stand first line.

(and, well, a swordsage does it better, but that's not the point)

[emeraldstreak]

>Custom magic items
>Epic magic items with sub-epic pricing
>Doesn't know how size scaling for damage dice works
>Colossal+ size category while not being an epic dragon

Sure is some guide you got there.

It has its shortcomings but it's the best I was able to find. Much better ones were lost with the older older WotC forums. Sieve for things that'll be useful for this challenge.

[emeraldstreak]

In a straight up face punch fest the Fighter is going to be pretty much any other PHB class (and a hell of a lot of non PHB classes). At least if the Fighter is built for face punching.

The Fighter is a front line, close quarters, melee combatant. It's the best possible situation for virtually every fighter build.

The Monk is a hit and run, strike from stealth, skirmisher and guerrilla. It is at its worst in a straight up, close quarters, melee fight.


---

Well, I don't really see "Monks" and "Fighters". I see collections of mathematically expressed values. Like BAB 20 vs BAB 15. Like base damage die 2d10. Like good and bad save progressions. Like hit die d8 vs d10. Like number and quality of bonus feats.

The idea that one of these swirling masses of numbers is supposed to be in-your-face in fluff, and the other stealthy, well...it's not my problem. It's the problem of the game designers who did or did not succeed in presenting this fluff idea in appropriate mathematical expression.

And while I do wish designers success, most recently for 5e; what I do is to draw the glimmering numbers that have the greatest potential for optimization out of the swirl and build on them. Sometimes the result aligns with the fluff. Sometimes the result is counterintuitive.