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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Core is kindof a meaningless term, especially when I'm discussing pathfinder.

    You could describe "Core" as all the first party paizo material at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/.

    Or you could describe it as all the stuff accepted in the society. Frankly, either gets you there.
    It could also be used to describe just the CRB material.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    Correct. You don't upgrade an ancestral relic. Upgrading means adding. Like normal magic items you can't remove properties you can only add. For example a +1flaming sword can't be changed to a +1 shock sword. You would have to add the shock on top to make it a +1 flaming shock sword

    Ancestral relic say what it is now and whatniy will become. Its not upgraded or crafted of added too. Its becoming something else. So RAW it takes no time. Although I feel the 8hr minimum is the best way to go otherwise it is kind of obnoxious being able to change spells in and out in the middle of combat.
    Ugh. Terrible interpretation. If that interpretation was correct, it would be the only effect in the game that let you rebuild magic items for free.



    Talya, your question doesn't really have an answer, because how many "clutch" spells your character needs varies depending on campaign. For example, one campaign might not include any meaningful number of undead opponents, in which case all the undead-specific spells are of marginal use and can be sacrificed. In another, undead might be common but aberrations might never appear. One DM might resolve all social situations with dice checks, while another might go with how persuasively the player speaks -- in the second DM's campaign, spells that improve your social skills are useless. Bans and nerfs under various sets of house rules further complicate the situation. Further, we're comparing to schrodinger's wizard, who has an unknown number of spells known -- perhaps he knows 2/3 of the list, or perhaps he knows only his automatic spells plus whatever he can get from spellbooks looted from foes. Perhaps he has banned three schools, or maybe he's a generalist.

    In the general case, though, the "tipping point" is the point at which the value of spontaneous casting and sorcerer class features exactly matches the value of faster progression, wizard class features, and slightly more spells known. I think you're probably going to hit that point when the sorcerer knows about 3/4 of the spells that the wizard does.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-08-21 at 03:54 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    But that's kinda my point - how many spells does a Tier 2 need to "know" before they get bumped to tier 1?

    Let's put it another way:

    A Sorcerer that "knows" all the spells on their list is obviously more versatile than a wizard who has somehow also acquired all the spells on their list, and likely more powerful too. They're far more powerful than the standard wizard, who doesn't even know a third of the spells on their list.

    Take a spell at every spell level away from the sorcerer. Let them choose which one they lose. Are they still tier 1? Well, yes, obviously. There are plenty of useless spells you'll never use.

    Take two spells away now. Probably same thing.

    If you keep going, at a certain point, they will become less versatile than a wizard, but that won't make them tier 2 yet, they've just lost a trick or two.

    The core PF Sorcerer, with it's 9/6/6/5/5/5/4/4/4/4 spells known (includes bloodline spells), is 1 spell per spell level better than 3.5. Then favored class bonuses will make them 12/8/8/7/7/7/6/6/7/4 for spells known. Arcane Bloodline makes them 12/8/8/7/8/7/7/6/8/4. That's all without spending feats or resources on extra spells. Compared to 3.5, that's +3/+3/+3/+3/+4/+3/+4/+3/+5/+1 spells known (by level.) In 3.5, that might put them on the cusp of tier 1. Pathfinder has less than a quarter the published spells available as 3.5 had...so not only do they know so many more spells, but those spells represent a higher percentage of their total list than they did in 3.5. It's clear that if a sorcerer knows their entire spell list, their spellcasting method is obviously better than the Wizard's. But there's a wide gulf in between core 3.5 sorcerer and "knowing your entire spell list." At what point is the sorcerer method of casting just as good as the wizard's? (We're not counting the level progression being behind at odd levels, just the mechanic.)
    I do not think there is a consensus at how many "Break the Game/Break the Campaign" options a character needs before they move from Tier 2 to Tier 1. However I think there is a consensus on it being a quanitity/number of options/versatility difference rather than a qualitative difference(Tier 3 vs Tier 2 is qualitative). But as always, let us return to the definitions.

    Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.
    So the definition of Tier 2 is: Theoretically game breaking but some circumstances might not be breakable by this class*/character*.
    *At this optimization level and play skill level

    So based on that definitions, I agree that most Tier 2 caster classes shift into Tier 1 as they level.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2014-08-21 at 04:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Ugh. Terrible interpretation. If that interpretation was correct, it would be the only effect in the game that let you rebuild magic items for free.
    That is how it works.
    And its not free. It still costs gold to get what you want (just like a fighter buying at a market)
    And you have to spend a feat on it (unlike the fighter at the market)

    Plus, if you couldn't change it , it would be terrible. What you put on it at level 4 would bog down what you'd like it to be at level 20.

    In this case the ability to wipe it clean and make it something new is both RAW and RAI.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    A 9th level spell costs a wizard 450gp to learn (assuming the normal rate)
    Nitpicking - a 9th level spell costs a wizard the price of the scroll and the price of the ink/special materials (or the %age cost of the blessed book you're using). You cannot count on being able to find a wizard willing to trade/sell you spellbook copying access.

    In pathfinder, which we're discussing, this is 3825gp+810gp, or 4635gp. This is still much cheaper than the sorcerer page of spell knowledge, but it's more than ten times your stated cost.

    A 9th level know stone costs a sorcerer 81,000gp (assuming you can find one)
    I wasn't including that method, as a PF sorcerer gets about twice as many total spells as a 3.5 sorcerer, but this cost is the same for Pathfinder's "Pages of Spell Knowledge."

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku
    In the general case, though, the "tipping point" is the point at which the value of spontaneous casting and sorcerer class features exactly matches the value of faster progression, wizard class features, and slightly more spells known. I think you're probably going to hit that point when the sorcerer knows about 3/4 of the spells that the wizard does.
    Which a pathfinder sorcerer might actually reach without shenanigans. A PF sorcerer knows 75 spells without working too hard at it. Seems to me 100 spells is about what the average wizard will end up with in their spellbook at 20.

    (Of course, then the Arcanist comes out and blows both out of the water by combining the wizard's ability to know as many spells as they can find, and then prepare the ones they need, with the sorcerer's ability to then cast those prepped spells spontaneously.)

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Triple the number of spells known and add a mechanic for relatively easily switching spells around.

    As in "The Sorcerer can spend 8 hours meditating and change up to his Sorcerer level worth of spell levels to different spells from his spell list."

    So a level 20 Sorcerer could spend 8 hours meditating and switch around 2 ninth level spells and a second level spell (or any other combination of spells with a total spell level of 20).

    That would get you what is probably a Tier 1 Sorcerer as it makes up for the Sorcerer's two biggest limiters. The first is that it doesn't know enough spells to actually cover the full defensive and offensive suite on a daily basis, tripling the number of spells known solves that problem.

    The second issue is that Sorcerer's are, individually, predictable. Once you know a Sorcerer's list of spells known (fighting, divination's, research, etc.) then you can plan around the capabilities that those spells provide the Sorcerer and find the weaknesses to exploit. A Wizard can totally respec his entire spell list every day and if he is smart he is deliberately doing so to some extent specifically to not be so predictable. The second change lets the Sorcerer do the same thing.


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    This is why I think that the Psion should be tier 1. Psychic Chiguery means that they have no limit on powers known and Psychic Reformation lets them rebuild their list of powers and feats at any time with no real notice.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quoth bjoern:

    Plus, if you couldn't change it , it would be terrible. What you put on it at level 4 would bog down what you'd like it to be at level 20.

    In this case the ability to wipe it clean and make it something new is both RAW and RAI.
    By the same argument, feats themselves are terrible, since the feat you take at level 3 might bog down what you'd want at level 18. Or, you know, you could just plan ahead a little bit and take things that will continue to be useful as you level.

    Talya, why the assumption that scrolls will be easier to come by than spellbook access? If we can handwave away scrolls because Magic-Mart, then why can't Magic-Mart sell pages, too? And if we're not handwaving it away, then wouldn't anything which would cause spellbook access to be rare also cause scrolls to be rare?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    By the same argument, feats themselves are terrible, since the feat you take at level 3 might bog down what you'd want at level 18. Or, you know, you could just plan ahead a little bit and take things that will continue to be useful as you level.

    Talya, why the assumption that scrolls will be easier to come by than spellbook access? If we can handwave away scrolls because Magic-Mart, then why can't Magic-Mart sell pages, too? And if we're not handwaving it away, then wouldn't anything which would cause spellbook access to be rare also cause scrolls to be rare?
    I realise you're talking pathfinder here, but in3.5 you can retrain up to 1 feat per level to ssomething else that you were eligible for at the time. So feats really aren't something that you're married to

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post

    Talya, why the assumption that scrolls will be easier to come by than spellbook access? If we can handwave away scrolls because Magic-Mart, then why can't Magic-Mart sell pages, too? And if we're not handwaving it away, then wouldn't anything which would cause spellbook access to be rare also cause scrolls to be rare?
    You can't handwave that any scroll will be accessible, but scrolls do exist as items that can be found through random loot, or sold in magic shops (which do exist, they just don't have limitless stock and perfect variety).

    Spellbooks do not exist, except as the possession of other wizards, who may or may not be friendly and accessible, and if they are, they may not have what you need.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    After playing a wizard in over 50+ campaigns, my friend is always demanded to be one, he is as close to schrodinger's wizard in play as I have seen. He scribes scrolls, and after a phone call with him he says "Scrolls, magic item crafting and knowledge checks are how he is 90+% prepared for whatever is to come. Divination and experience only are 50% of the equation for knowing what to prepare, and how much to leave open. And leaving open around 1/3 of his spells 90+% of the time for some niche spell is something a sorcerer can't do to the same degree." Paragon Surge in my games is run per the FAQ and even before that he always looked at it as the clunky work around that a wizard never has to do. His next wizard won't be the exploiter wizard, as he thinks the trade off for what it does is a tad steep especially with no greater exploits, and he is a miser with his feats as he has a lot of them he thinks are almost mandatory with the varied and AP+6 not being unheard of combats I run when I want to challenge them past level 10.

    YMMV but the one time I saw this same guy try to run a sorcerer it was not even close to the same toolbox

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by bjoern View Post
    That is how it works.
    And its not free. It still costs gold to get what you want (just like a fighter buying at a market)
    And you have to spend a feat on it (unlike the fighter at the market)

    Plus, if you couldn't change it , it would be terrible. What you put on it at level 4 would bog down what you'd like it to be at level 20.

    In this case the ability to wipe it clean and make it something new is both RAW and RAI.
    Unconvincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by caimbuel View Post
    YMMV but the one time I saw this same guy try to run a sorcerer it was not even close to the same toolbox
    This has been my experience too. My sorcerers may be game-crushing behemoths within their area of expertise, but my wizards don't have anything so quaint as an "area" of expertise. They're good at everything. Plus my sorcerers are, as Tippy pointed out, predictible in a way that a wizard never needs to be.

    Talya, I've not played the Pathfinder sorcerer, but if it's as you describe, then I'd say yes, you're at the Tier 1 level.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    It could also be used to describe just the CRB material.
    "Core" is defined differently in PF - All the non-setting stuff is considered core, i.e. the CRB + Advanced X + Ultimate X books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    (Of course, then the Arcanist comes out and blows both out of the water by combining the wizard's ability to know as many spells as they can find, and then prepare the ones they need, with the sorcerer's ability to then cast those prepped spells spontaneously.)
    It's just a spell point wizard without the points.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    Spellbooks all start off in the possession of wizards, but then, the same is true of scrolls. Sometimes, a wizard decides to make some money and sells a scroll, or gets defeated and their scrolls taken as loot, but the same is true of spellbooks. Plus, it's possible for an academy or other wizards' organization to have a library of spellbooks available (for a fee, presumably), since they're not consumed, but it's not possible to do the same with scrolls, so if anything spellbooks should be easier to come by.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    The benefit of being able to switch out all your spells from a potentially unlimited list is that it places greater value on "downtime" spells. A Sorcerer that learns Identify or Contact other Plane has just permanently eliminated two of his precious spells known to get spells that he will hardly ever use on a daily basis. A Wizard does not have this problem. A Sorcerer who specializes in divination magic does just that- specializes. A Wizard- even if they choose a school of magic- never truly specializes. A wizard that focuses on divination one day can just as easily focus on necromancy the next. In this way, many many spells printed in the books are far more useful to a Wizard than to a Sorcerer, simply by virtue of them being high-power, low-versatility spells.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    To add to Owl's point, you don't really "ban" schools in Pathfinder either, even if you specialize - you can still prepare and cast spells from your "banned" schools, it just takes twice as much ammunition to do it. Furthermore, you can even "un-ban" one of the two later.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

    While I still think the default pathfinder sorcerer needs some more versaility to truly be tier 1, there is a mythic path ability which completely erases the discrepancy between tier one and tier two: Wild Arcana.

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