[BitPR²] OOCVI: We have a space base now!

[Kuroimaken]

Two words.

Repeat offender.

Yeah, about that.

What's Azuma's rank within the Gotei again?

That's right, he doesn't HAVE one. He's also not part of Central 46, or whatever government body Seireitei judges criminals with. Even if he were, and even when it comes to a violent criminal like Kishi, he'd have to... what's the word again? Recuse himself? Precisely because his niece was the one attacked.

He is, of course, welcome to register his stern indignation as a citizen of Seireitei, file a formal complaint and whatnot. Any more than that and he'd be abusing his privileges as a noble. Which is unseemly at best, and gives other Seireitei nobles a bad name all told.

Kishi is actually well within her rights to start acting for the good of Seireitei instead of being a pain in the ass, which includes kicking the ass of other criminals at the Gotei's behest. an action that some might describe as ironic justice.

[Frozen_Feet]

Well within her rights, but maybe not within her attitude.

Also, while Azuma couldn't act as a judge, as (one of) the plaintiff(s) of the crime(s), the phrase you're looking for isn't "file a formal complaint", it is "press criminal charges". It may be within his rights to request meeting with the defendant, and it may be within rights of Setsurou to say "LOL no", but that isn't really defined. It Azuma did file a formal complaint, someone (probably me) would have to review the case in the role of Central 46 and pass a statement. At that point, the question becomes: how much rules lawyering and pulling new protocols from my hat do you want me to do?

[Kuroimaken]

Yeah, that's another thing.

At some point we're going to have Central 46 officialize certain promotions. Half the Captain roster is on an "Acting" capacity.

If a noble can outrank a Gotei Captain, then nobles going into the Gotei are actually getting a demotion powers-wise. But if Gotei runs unchecked, nobles lose power as well, which means they'd have no reason to fund the Gotei as a whole.

I prefer to think of the relationship between the Nobles and Gotei as the relationship between lawyers and judges. Nobles can request what they want, but it's within Gotei's ability to say 'no'. They can appeal to a higher regulating power (in this case, Central 46) if denied. No guarantee they'll be granted the appeal, however.

Plus there are actual security protocols Setsurou has to observe to ensure the physical integrity of both the plaintiff and the defendant. Under RL law circumstances, what Azuma is asking for would be met with derisive laughter at best.

[TherianTheorist]

Back again,I promised to post before, but It's clearly too late for that by now. I've realized by this point I shouldn't try to actually participate again, since I won't be able keep up with it.

I have no idea what's going on, and my last few courses have peen really homework heavy. So I've decided to work harder on just showing up first. My goal for now is visiting the forum at least twice a week.

Signed- someone who knows he's going to end up as one of those "that one player" stories.

Sorry for all the inconvenience, again.

Edit: Given all that I've missed, am I even welcome here anymore?

[Frozen_Feet]

I prefer to think of the relationship between the Nobles and Gotei as the relationship between lawyers and judges.

The best comparison point would actually be Nobility versus Military in any present constitutional monarcy, such as Sweden. Maybe substitute law-enforcement for military in this case.

The actual lawyers and judges of Seiretei are the Central 46. Gotei is (one of) their executive arm(s).

[Draken]

Yeah, about that.

What's Azuma's rank within the Gotei again?

Retired SSI officer.

That's right, he doesn't HAVE one. He's also not part of Central 46, or whatever government body Seireitei judges criminals with. Even if he were, and even when it comes to a violent criminal like Kishi, he'd have to... what's the word again? Recuse himself? Precisely because his niece was the one attacked.

As a family head he is actually well within his rights and duties to represent any of his descendants in all legal matters. The entire concept of a family head is meaningless otherwise. Lets not even ignore the simple fact that he likely has friends and family in central 46, and not just the nobility. Koutetsu is a very wealthy family and the district ring under their control is very prosperous in turn.

He is, of course, welcome to register his stern indignation as a citizen of Seireitei, file a formal complaint and whatnot. Any more than that and he'd be abusing his privileges as a noble. Which is unseemly at best, and gives other Seireitei nobles a bad name all told.

As previously stated he is will within his rights to formally press criminal charges, and they are pretty extensive criminal charges.

Kishi is actually well within her rights to start acting for the good of Seireitei instead of being a pain in the ass, which includes kicking the ass of other criminals at the Gotei's behest. an action that some might describe as ironic justice.

She is within her rights to be prosecuted as fairly as possible, not to get away scot-free with vandalism, sedition, terrorism, attempted murder and tax evasion.

[KnightDisciple]

Kuroi does have a point that pretty much any sane law enforcement protocol wouldn't allow the plaintiff access to the defendant, especially this early on and within the context of holding cells or interrogation rooms. He could, of course, press charges, file complaints, and so on, but "I want to go see the prisoner" is not necessarily something he can be granted. Even if he acts as the prosecuting attorney in the case, the meeting would be in a controlled environment with the defending attorney and the judge present as well, to ensure a safe and fair space.

EDIT: Looking at your recent IC post, the response would be "we can provide photographs of the prisoner as well as the name given by the prisoner, and here are the forms for you to formally press charges, none of which actually require you to be in the same physical space as the prisoner".

[Kuroimaken]

Retired SSI officer.



As a family head he is actually well within his rights and duties to represent any of his descendants in all legal matters. The entire concept of a family head is meaningless otherwise. Lets not even ignore the simple fact that he likely has friends and family in central 46, and not just the nobility. Koutetsu is a very wealthy family and the district ring under their control is very prosperous in turn.



As previously stated he is will within his rights to formally press criminal charges, and they are pretty extensive criminal charges.



She is within her rights to be prosecuted as fairly as possible, not to get away scot-free with vandalism, sedition, terrorism, attempted murder and tax evasion.

1) Emphasis on retired.

2) Which grants him a whole lot of political and monetary clout. This does not make him the law nor able to dictate what those who are the law ought to be doing. If nothing else, Kishi would be DENIED a fair trial in light of the Koutetsu family's influence. Which would actually prove her right.

3) Pressing criminal charges does not at any point allow him prisoner visitation rights - if nothing else, the contact should actually be forbidden, lest there be contamination of evidence.

4) Remember waaaaaaaaaaaay back when someone came up with a conscript division and I mentioned that sounded like a monumentally bad idea?

Now you get to see why, and I get to say I told you so.

EDIT: Incidentally, there's a whole lot of procedure that Azuma is trying to barrel straight through with no regards for proper military decorum.

[Draken]

1) Emphasis on retired.

2) Which grants him a whole lot of political and monetary clout. This does not make him the law nor able to dictate what those who are the law ought to be doing. If nothing else, Kishi would be DENIED a fair trial in light of the Koutetsu family's influence. Which would actually prove her right.

3) Pressing criminal charges does not at any point allow him prisoner visitation rights - if nothing else, the contact should actually be forbidden, lest there be contamination of evidence.

4) Remember waaaaaaaaaaaay back when someone came up with a conscript division and I mentioned that sounded like a monumentally bad idea?

Now you get to see why, and I get to say I told you so.

1. Very well.

2. Granted.

3. He doesn't want to talk to her. The picture and name KD mentioned are enough.

4. You don't get to tell that to me. It was not my idea nor did I have any input on it.

Either way, the conscript division is made of criminal conscripts, which means they were convicted to begin with and then compulsorily recruited. Setsurou's contract has no reason to exist as conscripting soldiers is not up to him.

Edit: And no doubt he is ignoring decorum, by all means he is angry that Setsurou barged into a long-standing matter that his niece was going to solve cleanly and permanently.

[KnightDisciple]

3. He doesn't want to talk to her. The picture and name KD mentioned are enough.

He should probably then make that clear, as the way he's currently expressing his desires makes it sound like he specifically wants to meet face-to-face with her.

[Kuroimaken]

It could be argued that Setsurou is doing them a favor.

If Kishi is convicted under heavy influence of the Koutetsu family's weight on Central, then there'd be grounds for a mistrial appeal. At which point we'd enter a catch-22 situation, because the Koutetsu family wouldn't willingly relent their judicial clout to allow for a fair decision on the subject, and refusing the appeal would also come as a result of a poisoned decision. It opens a very dangerous precedent, by the way, because it would mean that whichever Noble House has the greatest representation in Central can lord over the other three.

If Kishi is a repeat offender, then she was likely tried in absentia for her other crimes, making her basically a convict either way, and thus, the provision for the Conscript Act applies to her.

Insulting Setsurou would likely warrant a charge of its own, by the by.

[TherianTheorist]

If it's not asking too much (which it probably is), is there any way to get some sort of recap?

[strawberryman]

I am unbelievably amused at the extent of this conversation.

Cardrian: Never too late if you're still willing to commit!

[Kuroimaken]

Former Law major here, one of whose parents is a judge, the brothers of whom almost ALL went into Law as a career.

I couldn't dodge this stuff if I ran away from home to Nepal.


EDIT: What Strawbs said, Cardrian.

This is my ultra-concise summary of the game up to this point. If you need more specifics, let me know.

[Draken]

Former Law major here, one of whose parents is a judge, the brothers of whom almost ALL went into Law as a career.

I couldn't dodge this stuff if I ran away from home to Nepal.


EDIT: What Strawbs said, Cardrian.

This is my ultra-concise summary of the game up to this point. If you need more specifics, let me know.

Also a law major, but you are pretty clearly working on the assumption that this place functions under a political and legal system that it has no business working under.

[TherianTheorist]

Willing to commit, just not sure how much net time I can reliably get besides Wednesday, weekends, and late night in general

Going to try and post something at least once a week. And I probably shouldn't touch anything of major importance or risk slowing it way down.

[Kuroimaken]

I am a former law major. I didn't actually finish.

The alternative provides way too many issues to deal with. Like the aforementioned pulling of rank between Gotei and Nobility.

Much as I find the idea amusing, we're going to have to go with a system we know and that provides a certain degree of consistency, or create an entirely new one.

And we'd have to agree on each of those laws. We'd basically be playing Bleach: Congress.

Besides, some of those protocols actually fall within Setsurou's abilities to define. The whole conscript division thing is something he'd have needed to have input in, because he's the one who deals with the actual prisoners.

[TherianTheorist]

Until further notice, I should probably figure out what my characters have been doing while I was away. To the semi-retcon mobile!

Torahiko: Being a student, reading manga. _{Poking around in the supernatural for no discernible motive beyond "I can see these things so I might as well mess with them."}
I feel like just throwing his barrier powers at him already and ending that phase of his arc
Bernadette: Off being her usual self.
Takumi Tsukino: Wasn't he just a one off?
Kaoru: In a lot of trouble. Just as planned.

[Frozen_Feet]

And we'd have to agree on each of those laws.

Not really. We could just appoint one player as a non-benevolent dictator to pass statements around, and then watch as half the character base mutinies or does some other stupid thing. You know, like usual.

For the record, we still do have a canonical set of laws, and we know what the highest priority of law in Soul Society is. (It is "to maintain balance".) This is pretty far cry from any human system, because I don't think it is compatible with the idea of human rights, for one. For example, the canonical stunt where Mayuri Kurotsuchi murdered hundreds of poor Rukongai citizens in order to counter-balance acts by Quincies, would be a legal thing for a Shinigami to do. More it could be something a Shinigami could be obligated to do... and because I know the idea doesn't sit well with many players and characters, I already went and worked it into the narrative in the form of Project Fury.

Regarding Caeyrn and Margrave:

(Umm...I forgot what was supposed to happen next. Was Margrave going to break out or was Caeyrn going to free him?)

That's up to you two to decide. Flip a coin if you have to.

[Kuroimaken]

Yeah... that reminds me, again, that Koutarou needs to work some plans to make sure Project Fury isn't necessary once he gets back.

@MV: Feel free to have Caeyrn talk to Margrave a little first.

[Draken]

Not really. We could just appoint one player as a non-benevolent dictator to pass statements around, and then watch as half the character base mutinies or does some other stupid thing. You know, like usual.

For the record, we still do have a canonical set of laws, and we know what the highest priority of law in Soul Society is. (It is "to maintain balance".) This is pretty far cry from any human system, because I don't think it is compatible with the idea of human rights, for one. For example, the canonical stunt where Mayuri Kurotsuchi murdered hundreds of poor Rukongai citizens in order to counter-balance acts by Quincies, would be a legal thing for a Shinigami to do. More it could be something a Shinigami could be obligated to do... and because I know the idea doesn't sit well with many players and characters, I already went and worked it into the narrative in the form of Project Fury.

Regarding Caeyrn and Margrave:



That's up to you two to decide. Flip a coin if you have to.

On the bright side. Thanks to the valiant efforts of Von Geister, the balance no longer means jack!

[Frozen_Feet]

Only presuming the preservation of its landmass from Izanami's consumption was the sole reason Seireitei wanted to keep the balance. Von Geister's opinion on their motives should be taken with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Also, tell me that Kishi's holding cell is close/next to the Arrancar's. Pwetty please. I want someone to chat with who isn't Kuroi's character for a change.

[KnightDisciple]

"Soul balance" is BS anyways. There's never any concrete numbers or explanations.

I mean, what, do those 50 people Mayuri murdered get reborn? Do their souls actually get annihilated?
What about Hollows? How does the up-and-down flux of Hollows and Arrancar affect the balance? Do they count as one soul? Millions?
Do Shinigami count for more balance than unpowered Pluses?
Or is this whole "keep the balance" thing a load of crikey cooked up by ignorant nobles and perpetuated by a psychopathic sociopathic murderer with fetishes for surgery on others and himself, pontification, and don't forget misogyny and domestic abuse (physical and verbal/emotional at minimum)?

I know which opinion I favor overall.

[Kuroimaken]

Only presuming the preservation of its landmass from Izanami's consumption was the sole reason Seireitei wanted to keep the balance. Von Geister's opinion on their motives should be taken with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Also, tell me that Kishi's holding cell is close/next to the Arrancar's. Pwetty please. I want someone to chat with who isn't Kuroi's character for a change.

Allow me to roll a die on it.

*rolls* Their cells are in front of each other.

[Frozen_Feet]

KD: The opinion you favor as well as the opinion of Von Geister both start from the premise that the guys in charge don't know what they're talking about and they both are grounded in hatred (of nobility and Shinigami, respectively) to an extent that goes far beyond which can be reasonably justified by evidence, whether we're talking about canonical evidence or events of our own game.

As far as canon goes, we have the author's word that Mayuri is his exploration of the concept of "necessary evil" - meaning that while he is, indeed, evil, as a scientist he tends to know what he talks about. You're also forgetting that Urahara, possibly the smartest character in the series, also stands in favor of balance, despite having been exiled. So did Yamamoto who, despite his bloodied history, was shown to genuinely care for humans. He stated he would've granted Mayuri the permission, though he was clearly pained about it. The idea that balance of souls is BS invented by the nobles to justify their existence isn't supported by canon at all. Instead, it's been suggested by Urahara that the balance is something dictated by the Soul King, or perhaps even something that directly flows from its existence akin to a natural law.

Also, Central 46 isn't synonymous with nobility; it is a collection of wise men and women from all across Soul Society, serving under the mandate of the Soul King. There's very little to suggest Noble families in Bleach have any sort of legistlative power; instead, they appear subservient to the King and laws passed by Central 46.

Also also, Central 46 doesn't control Shinoreijutsuin. That is the organization that trains new Shinigami, and its doctrine was the headchild of its founder (in canon, Yamamoto. In our game, Izanagi), not of the nobility.

Just because you weren't given exact numbers doesn't mean the general premise is BS. If that was the case, I would demand everyone in this game to provide scientifically accurate information on their characters' abilities, and would cry foul every time I make a calculation where something doesn't add up.

[Draken]

My position is more along the lines of "there is another way". Mostly because the logistics of The Balance never quite added up to me (and I bet it was the same for most), which is why I guess we never really spoke about them. I am sure most people had actually forgotten about that bit since past the first few chapters it was really mentioned in the Memories movie and then long, long, looooong later in Mayuri's stunt.

[KnightDisciple]

KD: The opinion you favor as well as the opinion of Von Geister both start from the premise that the guys in charge don't know what they're talking about and they both are grounded in hatred (of nobility and Shinigami, respectively) to an extent that goes far beyond which can be reasonably justified by evidence, whether we're talking about canonical evidence or events of our own game.

As far as canon goes, we have the author's word that Mayuri is his exploration of the concept of "necessary evil" - meaning that while he is, indeed, evil, as a scientist he tends to know what he talks about. You're also forgetting that Urahara, possibly the smartest character in the series, also stands in favor of balance, despite having been exiled. So did Yamamoto who, despite his bloodied history, was shown to genuinely care for humans. He stated he would've granted Mayuri the permission, though he was clearly pained about it. The idea that balance of souls is BS invented by the nobles to justify their existence isn't supported by canon at all. Instead, it's been suggested by Urahara that the balance is something dictated by the Soul King, or perhaps even something that directly flows from its existence akin to a natural law.

Also, Central 46 isn't synonymous with nobility; it is a collection of wise men and women from all across Soul Society, serving under the mandate of the Soul King. There's very little to suggest Noble families in Bleach have any sort of legistlative power; instead, they appear subservient to the King and laws passed by Central 46.

Also also, Central 46 doesn't control Shinoreijutsuin. That is the organization that trains new Shinigami, and its doctrine was the headchild of its founder (in canon, Yamamoto. In our game, Izanagi), not of the nobility.

Just because you weren't given exact numbers doesn't mean the general premise is BS. If that was the case, I would demand everyone in this game to provide scientifically accurate information on their characters' abilities, and would cry foul every time I make a calculation where something doesn't add up.

The problem with labeling Mayuri a "necessary evil" is that he's not even good at being "necessary" to anyone but himself.

Most of the time he doesn't provide many benefits for anyone outside of 12th Division, and even then they're focused on himself. Or he uses his troops as walking bombs (despite the fact that non-living remote-detonated mines would have a better chance of working).
He's not even really that great of a scientist; the only reason most of his gadgets work is the incredibly contrived abilities of his opponents.
Or because his actual sword power is "manipulate reality by way of "scientific" BS until I win".
He's like the most overblown versions of Batgod Batman. Except horrifically evil to a level equal to or exceeding the worst of the Joker.

[Kuroimaken]

Not the best comparison. The Joker does things on a combination of whim and twisted genius while Mayuri is an utterly amoral pragmatist. It comes as no surprise to me most of his stunts benefit himself first of all - because that's the one person he's actually concerned about.

Bringing him out of Maggot's Nest was an attempt at giving his intelligence a practical and beneficial purpose. It fell flat because they gave him autonomy, and an egoist given free reign will do as he feels like, unfettered by anything save his conscience, of which we know Mayuri has none.

The upswing of Mayuri's total lack of morality is that his thinking process arrives at conclusions no one would have ever DREAMED of, because his brain just plain works differently. And this is not necessarily always a completely horrific solution - it's a matter of leveraging what he believes CAN and CAN'T be done and rolling with it. The more constrained a person's way of thinking is, the less useful conclusions it can arrive at.

For an out-of-universe example, we could use Gregory House. His patients almost die of extraordinarily complex conditions, but the way he breaks limits is what allows him to be a successful doctor, and the way he thinks is what allows him to diagnose said conditions in the first place, often from completely innocuous clues.

At the end of the day, the question isn't whether you can justify your choices, but rather whether you can live with making the hard decisions. If canon Bleach played out more on large-scale combat and tactics choices we'd probably see Yamamoto sacrificing a lot of soldiers while needing to maintain a facade of emotionlessness, and that would make him even more of a monster in our eyes eventually than Mayuri is.

[Draken]

Ok, I should have mentioned this.

Aoiwa was the name of District 26-West before Azuma's weapon test 200-250 years ago, it is now named Rokushõkairõ. Kumokabe is District 26-North. The four districts of the 26th Ring is under administrative control of the Kotetsu family, if that is not obvious already.

[strawberryman]

By the way, related this to Draken over Steam, but curious how Azuma would even know about Setsurou and Momoka's relationship. Since either Setsurou has been in disguise, or Momoka, being the paranoid wreck she is, would use scrambling kido with trivial effort. A little surprised this didn't occur to Kuroi, but may be worth a minor retcon, since it was a single point of contention?