[BitPR²] OOCVI: We have a space base now!

[horngeek]

Oh, right. I mean 'are there any remaining control tricks'. The 'Hinata throwing around a Kido' would just be getting someone's attention, I wasn't entirely clear.

[Draken]

Fair.

To be clear, there aren't. Just so I won't have to answer this again the future.

[horngeek]

*nods* But yes, who wants to investigate? Or one of Shinji's helpers could come along as Frozen suggested.

[KnightDisciple]

FWIW Dorizzit, at this point part of me feels like we're in a bizarre reflection of Event Horizon.

[Kuroimaken]

*nods* But yes, who wants to investigate? Or one of Shinji's helpers could come along as Frozen suggested.

All you gotta do is get them to leave the room.

[horngeek]

'kay. In that case, Frozen, probably need another post or two out of you.

[Dorizzit]

FWIW Dorizzit, at this point part of me feels like we're in a bizarre reflection of Event Horizon.

Not a bad comparison. The direct inspiration was the white chamber, but Event Horizon is a good parallel.

[ImpSyndrome]

Guh, accidentally posted in the previous thread...Anyway, Draken, are you planning on acting with the Koutetsu lady this round, or should I go ahead with Satoshi?

[Kuroimaken]

He responded to that a little while earlier, Imp.

[Frozen_Feet]

Yeah, about that, Frozen. His head reforming - as well as DEforming - is something Margrave has painstakingly trained to make look as regeneration as much as possible, so could Niklaus at least TRY to act surprised

"Well well" and "that's odd" aren't signs of surprise? What'd you expect him to do, stop shooting?

Also, it's worth noting that the only Quincy Niklaus knows who could do something similar is Alpha-1... who, depending on how you look at it, could fit either of "automaton" or "someone inside is controlling it".

[Dorizzit]

Also, it's worth noting that the only Quincy Niklaus knows who could do something similar is Alpha-1... who, depending on how you look at it, could fit either of "automaton" or "someone inside is controlling it".

Metaphorically, yes. Physiologically, no.

[Draken]

For the record, kuroi, wasps don't lose their stingers when they sting. That's bees.

[Frozen_Feet]

Someone's been taking trophies, then.

[Kuroimaken]

"Well well" and "that's odd" aren't signs of surprise? What'd you expect him to do, stop shooting?

Also, it's worth noting that the only Quincy Niklaus knows who could do something similar is Alpha-1... who, depending on how you look at it, could fit either of "automaton" or "someone inside is controlling it".

"Well well" and "that's odd" are signs of surprise. "His head is made of Reishi" is a conclusion.

"He can apparently survive headshots" is a trigger fact, but "this guy is really either a puppet or has someone inside" is an inferrence. Margrave's ability to survive or completely ignore wounds that would otherwise be fatal is supposed to be something puzzling, and how he does it is supposed to be REALLY hard to figure out, because the guy is one of the top masters of the way in which he does it.

So Niklaus figuring both that there's a trick and a part of how he does it in ONE SHOT is kind of a metaphorical kick in the nads for me.

- - - Updated - - -

For the record, kuroi, wasps don't lose their stingers when they sting. That's bees.

Good to know, though I'd say they do when they shatter against whatever it is they're trying to sting.

Duly noted though.

[horngeek]

Anyway, now the twins (and their mother) are looking for someone. And I'm heading to bed.

[strawberryman]

Waiting on Kuroi for Yoshiro and Yuuta.

[ImpSyndrome]

He responded to that a little while earlier, Imp.

Wait, seriously...? Yikes, my mistake. I'd better go look for that, I didn't see anything.

[Frozen_Feet]

Kuroi, figuring out Margrave (as far as Niklaus can see him) is made of Reishi is dead simple when starting from two premises:

a) Who Niklaus is fighting is a Quincy.
b) They're on Earth.

By default, Quincy powers use Reishi. It would be more expectional for them to use something else. However, on Earth Quincy bodies are not made of Reishi. Yet, Margrave is using Quincy powers to heal his head. The simplest explanation is that his head is made of Reishi as well. Beings made of Reishi are usually spirits, but spirits also usually need their heads to operate - the default strategy for fighting Hollows (etc.) is aiming for the mask. Again, the simplest explanation is that Margrave is an artifice - what kind of an artifice is a matter of taste, a vehicle and an automaton were just the first ones to pop to Nick's mind. (Automaton also isn't synonymous with puppet. Alpha-1 can help you if you have trouble comprehending the difference. )

For the record, that's still pretty distinct from knowing how Margave does anything. If you asked Niklaus how Alpha-1 does any of her tricks, he'd just shrug.

[strawberryman]

"Well well" and "that's odd" are signs of surprise. "His head is made of Reishi" is a conclusion.

"He can apparently survive headshots" is a trigger fact, but "this guy is really either a puppet or has someone inside" is an inferrence. Margrave's ability to survive or completely ignore wounds that would otherwise be fatal is supposed to be something puzzling, and how he does it is supposed to be REALLY hard to figure out, because the guy is one of the top masters of the way in which he does it.

So Niklaus figuring both that there's a trick and a part of how he does it in ONE SHOT is kind of a metaphorical kick in the nads for me.

Do come down to the rest of us that have to deal with people figuring out their tricks or not having an answer to every occasion.

All passive-aggressiveness aside. With all due respect, all of your characters have varying levels of shenanigans, and after a point it's tiring, Kuroi. For example, when I said that Shinji is a CoDzilla, it was not an attempt to be endearing. It was to express the fact you are making my character feel superfluous even though they're supposed to be on the same level, and I have made strides to try to make him 'competitively balanced' (I know it's not a competition, it's just the best term I could think of). Setsurou's illusions were aggravating because you never gave anything on what was actually happening, and yes, I can say this from experience because Alexandra fought him for a short while, and she was high-willed and perceptive. So it insulted me when you seemed to write it off as his illusions being too good. And now Margrave is supposed to be some kind of super-prodigy with reishi constructs/regeneration? I could really care less about it, but really, there is just no call in taking up space to chastise about somebody figuring it out when I guarantee you've done the same thing at least once.

I respect you as an RPer, Kuroi, and you are fun, but with as much lightness as I can put it, you should really come off the high horse.

[ImpSyndrome]

Wait, seriously...? Yikes, my mistake. I'd better go look for that, I didn't see anything.

Hang on hang on hang on...Draken hasn't yet responded to the most recent round of posts. Satoshi blocked Kishi's opening attack, and Kishi responded with a punch and a leg-sweep. Draken hasn't posted any reaction to those two, which is why I've been waiting to post again. If he wants us to skip him as the Koutetsu lady, that's fine, but there's been no notice of such yet.

[Draken]

Hang on hang on hang on...Draken hasn't yet responded to the most recent round of posts. Satoshi blocked Kishi's opening attack, and Kishi responded with a punch and a leg-sweep. Draken hasn't posted any reaction to those two, which is why I've been waiting to post again. If he wants us to skip him as the Koutetsu lady, that's fine, but there's been no notice of such yet.

I made an answer in this thread, he means. I don't have anything to react in the actual IC. So yes, skip her for now. She is casting, her defenders are defending her. Satoshi has the spotlight until the spotlight turns to green fire.

[Kuroimaken]

Do come down to the rest of us that have to deal with people figuring out their tricks or not having an answer to every occasion.

All passive-aggressiveness aside. With all due respect, all of your characters have varying levels of shenanigans, and after a point it's tiring, Kuroi. For example, when I said that Shinji is a CoDzilla, it was not an attempt to be endearing. It was to express the fact you are making my character feel superfluous even though they're supposed to be on the same level, and I have made strides to try to make him 'competitively balanced' (I know it's not a competition, it's just the best term I could think of). Setsurou's illusions were aggravating because you never gave anything on what was actually happening, and yes, I can say this from experience because Alexandra fought him for a short while, and she was high-willed and perceptive. So it insulted me when you seemed to write it off as his illusions being too good. And now Margrave is supposed to be some kind of super-prodigy with reishi constructs/regeneration? I could really care less about it, but really, there is just no call in taking up space to chastise about somebody figuring it out when I guarantee you've done the same thing at least once.

I respect you as an RPer, Kuroi, and you are fun, but with as much lightness as I can put it, you should really come off the high horse.

OK, let's put things a bit in PERSPECTIVE here.

You know the kind of crap Shinji is pulling right now? I'm setting him up for drama later. Which you will be perfectly capable of appreciating once this fight is over. Just think back to what he was like after the FIRST fight with Alpha-1.

Katsuo is significantly LESS superfluous power-wise than you give him credit for. Versatility is nice, but so is being able to proto-Superman through stuff. Without using the tail, if it came down to a fight between the two of them, Shinji would be outmatched. His best shot would be Asura, which Katsuo would starve to death mid-fight with kindness. And then promptly smash through. Like he did once already. Same goes for his barriers, his blasts, and his sealings.

Also, who's setting Naito free right now? Is it Shinji? No, I thought not.

I won't say what would happen WITH the tail, because that's what I want to illustrate when the fight is OVER.

As far as Setsurou goes: I specifically set him up with those two conditions so that beating his illusions was not just a matter of saying "I disbelieve!" or "I flex my spiritual power to dispel". He is supposed to be an annoying opponent - EXACTLY because of the fact you can't really tell what's going on with him. And yet, raw-power wise, he's actually pretty weak for a Captain. And in any case, I also made it a point back then, if you'll recall, of telling the other player (if not everyone else) of what was going on once you mentioned it. It just so happens he hasn't fought anyone else since then so it hasn't come up.

And finally, there's Margrave. My pet peeve here is that it's his first fight and his basic schtick is making his opponent go "why won't he die?!". His Ransoutengai puppet is supposed to be lifelike enough to fool experts.

Now, Frozen's explanation is perfectly simple, but that leaves the question: if it's so simple to figure out, why did Margrave get the nickname in the first place. And more importantly, why bother with the trick at all, if it's going to be figured out this easily? So either we add an element to that logic, or one of the propositions themselves is proved wrong somehow.

(By the way, Frozen, just because it can move under its own power doesn't make an automaton any less of a construct.)

In any case, I do apologize if I've come across as bitc-hing. It's been a stressful few days and I should probably handle this better.

[strawberryman]

You know the kind of crap Shinji is pulling right now? I'm setting him up for drama later. Which you will be perfectly capable of appreciating once this fight is over. Just think back to what he was like after the FIRST fight with Alpha-1.

That's not really an argument I accept, any more than Koutarou's nuke putting him out of commission for a while (which unless I'm misremembering, didn't, because he was out training with it in the dunes a while later). It's not really about the power level, I'm quickly discarding that. But I'll cover my point with the next snippet.

Katsuo is significantly LESS superfluous power-wise than you give him credit for. Versatility is nice, but so is being able to proto-Superman through stuff. Without using the tail, if it came down to a fight between the two of them, Shinji would be outmatched. His best shot would be Asura, which Katsuo would starve to death mid-fight with kindness. And then promptly smash through. Like he did once already. Same goes for his barriers, his blasts, and his sealings.

Also, who's setting Naito free right now? Is it Shinji? No, I thought not.

I won't say what would happen WITH the tail, because that's what I want to illustrate when the fight is OVER.

Katsuo also would never fight Shinji, so this is kind of irrelevant. The point I argue is that Asura more or less matches his corner of the group. The same with the barriers. So it was kind of offputting and annoying when, after Katsuo was trying and flailing, Shinji suddenly came out of nowhere with his shikigami power boost and did what he couldn't. Could he be weaker? Sure, fine. I'm not saying Katsuo should handle everything on his own. It just felt in that instance that Katsuo was being outmatched in his part of the plan, and his niche of the team, which is the bruiser. And that is kind of what he's limited to, unlike Shinji.

There's also the out-of-nowhere unstoppable hurricane that three of the oldest hollows in existence plus a knight whose entire shtick was wind control not being able to commandeer it or even slow it down because of reasons. You could say Von Geister's plans weren't screwed, but they pretty much were.

As far as Setsurou goes: I specifically set him up with those two conditions so that beating his illusions was not just a matter of saying "I disbelieve!" or "I flex my spiritual power to dispel". He is supposed to be an annoying opponent - EXACTLY because of the fact you can't really tell what's going on with him. And yet, raw-power wise, he's actually pretty weak for a Captain. And in any case, I also made it a point back then, if you'll recall, of telling the other player (if not everyone else) of what was going on once you mentioned it. It just so happens he hasn't fought anyone else since then so it hasn't come up.

I designed Momoka with the same idea in mind. I also made her illusions much more limited in area and scope. There's any number of abilities that people can use in this universe if they're efficient with them to pinpoint Setsurou through his shenanigans. Simple ground movements while he's invisible, pesquisa, the list goes on. In a manner of speaking, while you are obligated to not just have your character's powers ignored, other people's characters are also obligated to not have aspects of their character glossed over as not good enough.

And finally, there's Margrave. My pet peeve here is that it's his first fight and his basic schtick is making his opponent go "why won't he die?!". His Ransoutengai puppet is supposed to be lifelike enough to fool experts.

Now, Frozen's explanation is perfectly simple, but that leaves the question: if it's so simple to figure out, why did Margrave get the nickname in the first place. And more importantly, why bother with the trick at all, if it's going to be figured out this easily? So either we add an element to that logic, or one of the propositions themselves is proved wrong somehow.

(By the way, Frozen, just because it can move under its own power doesn't make an automaton any less of a construct.)

In any case, I do apologize if I've come across as bitc-hing. It's been a stressful few days and I should probably handle this better.

It shouldn't matter if it's his first or his fiftieth. If the character can figure it out, it's a moot point. Besides the fact that Niklaus is not your average quincy, it's another counterargument of 'my character is really good at this, so you shouldn't see through!'. It is just kind of how things work, and everyone has to live with it. It's no more fair to expect Niklaus not to get it.

I didn't want to seem offensive about this, but these points have been nagging at me for a while.

[Frozen_Feet]

It's basically up to Draken at this point what happens in Eastern Russia to the cultists and Argos, and up to Dorizzit what happens to that patch of roof in Las Noches. IIRC it was fixed, but I'm not sure.

I'm now going to give at least a week for you lot to do whatever with the remaining asteroids in the Void, mostly to give Chouko and Hideki a playing field to test their ideas. If no-one picks up that ball, said ball will fall on Eastern Russia and break something.

[Kuroimaken]

That's not really an argument I accept, any more than Koutarou's nuke putting him out of commission for a while (which unless I'm misremembering, didn't, because he was out training with it in the dunes a while later). It's not really about the power level, I'm quickly discarding that. But I'll cover my point with the next snippet.



Katsuo also would never fight Shinji, so this is kind of irrelevant. The point I argue is that Asura more or less matches his corner of the group. The same with the barriers. So it was kind of offputting and annoying when, after Katsuo was trying and flailing, Shinji suddenly came out of nowhere with his shikigami power boost and did what he couldn't. Could he be weaker? Sure, fine. I'm not saying Katsuo should handle everything on his own. It just felt in that instance that Katsuo was being outmatched in his part of the plan, and his niche of the team, which is the bruiser. And that is kind of what he's limited to, unlike Shinji.

There's also the out-of-nowhere unstoppable hurricane that three of the oldest hollows in existence plus a knight whose entire shtick was wind control not being able to commandeer it or even slow it down because of reasons. You could say Von Geister's plans weren't screwed, but they pretty much were.



I designed Momoka with the same idea in mind. I also made her illusions much more limited in area and scope. There's any number of abilities that people can use in this universe if they're efficient with them to pinpoint Setsurou through his shenanigans. Simple ground movements while he's invisible, pesquisa, the list goes on. In a manner of speaking, while you are obligated to not just have your character's powers ignored, other people's characters are also obligated to not have aspects of their character glossed over as not good enough.



It shouldn't matter if it's his first or his fiftieth. If the character can figure it out, it's a moot point. Besides the fact that Niklaus is not your average quincy, it's another counterargument of 'my character is really good at this, so you shouldn't see through!'. It is just kind of how things work, and everyone has to live with it. It's no more fair to expect Niklaus not to get it.

I didn't want to seem offensive about this, but these points have been nagging at me for a while.

I'm not offended at all, though I would certainly appreciate if you brought it to my attention earlier, rather than letting it build up. That's the best way to avoid heated arguments, either way, and we could have prevented more of that happening.

@Koutarou's nuke: You ARE misremembering. "A while later" in this case was weeks at the hospital and then three months which we would've skipped anyway. More to the point, the part we glossed over was that the three months in question were spent mastering his OTHER forms first.

The change was supposed to have been more gradual, with Koutarou learning his other forms given time over repeated battles with the Cult. The Cult plot really forced the acceleration of that. My share of the blame in this is that I figured this was gonna be one climactic showdown and Soul Society was utterly outmatched.

@Asura: Asura's point was to exploit its connection with wrath and screwing up Alpha-1's powers. Like the tail, the fusion is a card he didn't want to have to play. He was hoping for the original plan to have been enough, but he didn't count on Alpha-1 being so much further off the scale than she proved to be. He'd have had to tap into the tail's power in order to "invade" Alpha-1's inner world anyhow, so he was not going to come out unscathed.

@Hurricane: Von Geister would've still dislodged Soul Society from its place with or without the hurricane. The only reason it ended up where it is now is preparation and a boat-load of OOC outcry. Said hurricane also hadn't been commandeered or slowed down because it used most of the geomantic power in Japan to form in addition to being anathema to Hollows. Ultimately all it did was purify a whole bunch of NPCs who didn't have a role in the plan anyway.

@Setsurou's illusions: And I've conceded the point back then that his illusions can be discerned as much, they just can't be ignored until they're broken. If you're under an illusion that you can't cut him with a sword, but you see through it and somehow manage to do so anyway, he's still cut regardless of whether you perceive him as being cut. And in any case, it's just a matter of discussing the outcome a little more thoroughly. I've also agreed to discuss what's really going on back then, so why are you bringing this up now, and what is it you want me to do in that regard?

@Niklaus: I already apologized for my reaction towards that, and I actually reached out for help figuring this out, in case you didn't notice it.

By all means, don't keep frustration in. It's just that we'll work this out best if we do it together, instead of at each other.

[Frozen_Feet]

Now, Frozen's explanation is perfectly simple, but that leaves the question: if it's so simple to figure out, why did Margrave get the nickname in the first place?

There's an easy answer to this one, but it requires you to think of a few different questions:

What would have happened if Margrave had stopped moving?

Just fallen limp on the ground. Like, you know, people usually do when they get shot in the head. Brains messily scattered all across the pavement.

What would've old Nick thought then?

What would've old Nick thought if, a minute later, Margrave suddenly sprung up and shot at him, brains still dripping from his skull?

[Kuroimaken]

There's an easy answer to this one, but it requires you to think of a few different questions:

What would have happened if Margrave had stopped moving?

Just fallen limp on the ground. Like, you know, people usually do when they get shot in the head. Brains messily scattered all across the pavement.

What would've old Nick thought then?

What would've old Nick thought if, a minute later, Margrave suddenly sprung up and shot at him, brains still dripping from his skull?

A bad case of hindsight being 20-20 and a bad reaction.

I actually THOUGHT of using the play-dead trick, but Margrave's mission was to keep Niklaus and Caeyrn from going after the kids and Alpha-1 after capturing the spies. So he couldn't afford the time to play the trick.

Except I assumed that without further data, and without recognizing the enemy, Niklaus would've presumed high-speed regeneration - which is a very rare skill among the Quincy, albeit doable.

There's also the issue that depending on how high up his back Niklaus aimed, Margrave would have had to deal with and block an actual headshot.

In retrospect, had I just asked how high he was aiming, this wouldn't have become an issue at all, as he could've simply assumed it was Blut Vene or the bullet had been disassembled back into Reishi and absorbed - his coffin can do that.

But then again, it's best that it came up this way. At least if we argue about it, we can solve it and get it out of our systems, and that way it doesn't come back to hinder us later.

[strawberryman]

For Shinji, it is really just a case of there not seeming like there is any real limit on the abilities of the shikigami he can call. Or the spells he can conjure. They are just exactly what he needs, when he needs it. And that is why he comes off as a CoDzilla.

Also yes, after I made a post for Katsuo that I wanted to be an awesome moment, in the course of me going to sleep, there was a whole other half a page of conversation before Katsuo could even blink, and it felt overshadowing. So that was extremely irritating. I know things move fast paced here and sometimes people don't want to wait, but I think a day or so is a decent waiting period before pushing along a fight for consideration to other people, let alone a few hours.

For Setsurou, it was a matter of making Momoka's abilities in line with a limited aspect of illusions, because I know how much people love those, and then Setsurou, again, being infinitely more versatile with it outside of what I actually gleaned from his character sheet.

For Margrave, I'll concede it's not really my place to stir things up more. I just wanted to use it as an example that your characters all have varying degrees of shenanigans that make them feel sort of like you're trying to make them solve the problems of the setting all on their own. They always have a response, they always have something in their bag. I could be perceiving it wrong, but that's how I feel it coming off lately.

[Frozen_Feet]

I actually THOUGHT of using the play-dead trick, but Margrave's mission was to keep Niklaus and Caeyrn from going after the kids and Alpha-1 after capturing the spies. So he couldn't afford the time to play the trick.

This is the key here, really. Margrave got in a situation where he couldn't utilize his trick to its fullest, and Niklaus figured out something was funny earlier than expected as a result. The scene could've played out in a variety of ways, I actualy expected Margrave to do a German Suplex with is coffin to catch that shot.

EDIT: Blargh. This debate made me forget to send the message I was intending to send, and now that I got it done Kuroi has his PM storage filled.

So, I'll just post it here and wrap some spoilers around it:

Spoiler: To Kuroi and MV:

Show

Oh hey, this is what I actually got to the computer for and then got sidetracked by everything else:

So I was thinking: as far as I'm concerned, Niklaus is an antagonist and Margrave is a supporting character to Chuck. The only "protagonist" on the scene is Caeyrn, so I thought it'd be proper if it was Caeyrn's (in)action that somehow decides whether Margrave is captured or not. Will Caeyrn embrace the dark side and go full-out on him? Will he regret his decisions and take mercy on him, letting him escape while Niklaus is looking the other way? Will he rebel against his evil mentor, shooting Niklaus instead of Margrave?

That sort of thing.

Since the Alpha-1 fight seems to be nearing its end, I suggest we reach some sort of conclusion fairly quick as well. I don't want the peripheral fight to drag on after the main event has passed, so to speak.

So. Ideas?

[horngeek]

So, uh... Kuroi, do you want one of your guys to interact with the twins now?