Doctor Who Thread VI: "The Very Model of a Gallifreyan Buccaneer" [SPOILERS]

[Strawberries]

So, I managed to catch up on the last two episode. Last week's one was mindless fun, but I really really liked "Listen" - it's probably my favourite this year so far. A few points:

Spoiler: More Listen spoilers

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After the Orson drags the Doctor back into the TARDIS, we hear the Cloister Bell. If the thing was only in the Doctor's mind, then why did the Bell ring? It's not as if being in a hostile environment is going to harm the TARDIS, so something must have triggered it.

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I thought it was the fact the Doctor was unconscious and thus in potential danger? The way the Tardis is attuned to the Doctor, it made sense to me.

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The other is how they managed to end up on Gallifrey. Come on, that place is supposed to be locked down tight. "He'll never make it as a Time Lord" was a good shock though.

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When Clara tries to manouvre the Tardis out of the end of the universe (to do her 'thing'), the Doctor gasps and sits upright for a second, even if he is still unconscious.I had intepreted that as the Tardis locking on on the Doctor's timeline, and if you consider the Tardis' safeguards were disabled, it makes quite a lot of sense....

...also, I thought only the Time War was timelocked?

One thing this episode did do - it sold me on Peter Capaldi as the Doctor. The last few episodes I hadn't really bought it, but Capaldi was by far the best thing in this episode. I'm excited to see him doing more serious plots now. For the goofy Doctor, I remain a Matt Smith devotee.

I was sold on Capaldi since Deep Breath (scratch that, since the 50th anniversary ), but he was really really good in this one.

One thing that bugs me

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The Doctor doesn't react at all to the little plastic soldier when he sees Oscar Orson. (Stupid phone autocorrect....and turns out I meant Rupert anyway) with it. If it was planted back into his timeline when he was a child, and was so important to inspire him, he should have had some memory of it, shouldn't he?

Granted, Clara told him to sit down and shut up, so he didn't have the chance to look at it properly, but still, a reaction (even if simply an eyebrow arching in confusion) would have been neat, I think.

[TheOldCrow]

Listen so far is my favorite of the season. I am liking Capaldi as the Doctor.

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The Doctor doesn't react at all to the little plastic soldier when he sees Oscar with it. If it was planted back into his timeline when he was a child, and was so important to inspire him, he should have had some memory of it, shouldn't he?

Granted, Clara told him to sit down and shut up, so he didn't have the chance to look at it properly, but still, a reaction (even if simply an eyebrow arching in confusion) would have been neat, I think.

Spoiler: Dan the Soldier Man

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I wondered the exact same thing. The Doctor should have recognized it, if he saw it with Rupert. Did he see it with Orson, or was only Clara there for that scene? I am thinking that the Doctor was caught up in his own obsession, and did not take a close look at the toy soldier when Rupert had it, and that it wasn't until Clara told him to do as he was told that it occurred to him where they were and who had been lurking under his bed as a child. He did very quickly shut up and do as he was told from that point, so I think he did figure it out then.

[dehro]

1) He deactivated the safeguards

and

2) At some point he has to join the others in the 50th special to "freeze" Gallifrey once his TARDIS finishes the calculations to pull that off.

Should I have spoilered that?

1) he's not the only one who travels in time. The timelock is meant to keep pretty much everybody out, not just a question of him leaving the brakes on on the tardis. If that was not the case, dalek Caan wouldn't have had to scramble his brains just to get through.
2) on that (special) occasion he had special help from himself, homing in on a signal that originated within the timelock itself... And the whole affair didn't make a great deal of sense anyway.

[Psyren]

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So then The Doctor, in a move of pure Chaotic Evil, murders Red Shirt Ross. Just.....wow. Ok, and everyone just ignores it. Even, oddly moral Clara. Oh but The Doctor need to find where the goop room is to hide there...ok.

Yeah, no.

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As Capaldi himself stated, that guy was already dead. The Doctor did no murdering. If someone is about to die and you can't do anything about it, then doing nothing isn't murder.

What it most certainly was, was unethical, because the Doctor capitalized on their assumption that he would know what to do in order to get the guy to swallow the tracer pill. Still immoral, but on the level of a lie by omission - not nearly on the level of killing the guy himself.

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And Clara just goes all silly with the whole ''good Daleks are possible''. Now, sure, this is just a metaphor, for people. And she is trying to make the point that there are no ''always Chaotic Evil'' people, they way fiction is full of ''always Chaotic Evil'' races like the Daleks, the Drow or the Borg. But beyond that, her argument is pointless. A Dalek is a genetically engineered mutant made to not feel ''good'' emotions and be Always Chaotic Evil, combined with a cybernetic computer brain link to keep the Dalek as evil as can be at all times. So...sure...you could re-genetically engineer the Daleks back to a more normal biological race, and remove the cybernetics and the evil computer and the whole pepper-shaker of death......and then you would have a good Dalek. If you could still call what was left a ''Dalek'', because if you did all that, you'd have a Kaled.

You're right, what is left would not really be a Dalek anymore. Old hands to the series know that already. "Good Dalek" is just shorthand, and you have to remember there are some folks coming into the show who will be meeting these creatures for the very first time. You're getting too hung up on trifles here.

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So then Rusty starts killing the resistance folks and calls for help. Then the resistance fights back with.....Lazer Tag Rifles? Ok...I know that Daleks are made out of indestructible Dalekanium, but how do you have a ''resistance'', let alone a ''war'', if one side is indestructible? Is every battle just were the Daleks just kill everyone while they stand around an point their useless zap guns? How can you have a war like that? What is the point if you loose every battle? This comes up in lots of stories, but they really need to make the Daleks not so indestructible.

They did blow up a couple actually, the problem is that you really have to focus fire to even take down one, and by then you've lost half your side. It's much like the Reapers in Mass Effect. But you keep shooting because, hey, what's the alternative? Run and die tired?

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Why don't the Dalek antibodies scan and detect things all the time? They sit around and wait for damage, and then they act? Why not have wandering ''patrols''? Why don't Daleks have intruder alert alarms?

Because that's not how immuno-response works? Something has to trigger it. You don't just swim in antibodies all the time while perfectly healthy.

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Missy So Missy grabs Gretchen into the Promised Land of Heaven why exactly? Gretchen committed an act of pure self sacrifice. She gave her life so that others could live and other be saved...so, good, good, good. So why does Missy grab her? The Doctor really had nothing to do with her death directly. Unless your going for ''she would not have been in danger unless it was for The Doctor'', but if your going to fill up the place with every person who dies just as The Doctor is around and does something stupid, unwise, reckless, idiotic, useless, pointless, childish or just plain wrong......then your going to need a huge, huge, huge place.

And why does Missy not grab Ross? You know, the guy the Chaotic Evil Doctor murdered in cold blood on a whim? He would make a much better addition to ''Doctor Revenge Heaven''

My theory here:

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Missy is only grabbing people who kill themselves, either for the Doctor or at his behest. This provides us an answer to the question at the end of Deep Breath, i.e. did the half-face man jump or was he pushed - if my theory is right, then he jumped.

Gretchen was grabbed because she consciously sacrificed her own life. Ross was not, because he did not - he was merely killed and the Doctor had nothing to do with it. Simple.

[Strawberries]

Listen so far is my favorite of the season. I am liking Capaldi as the Doctor.

Spoiler: Dan the Soldier Man

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I wondered the exact same thing. The Doctor should have recognized it, if he saw it with Rupert. Did he see it with Orson, or was only Clara there for that scene? I am thinking that the Doctor was caught up in his own obsession, and did not take a close look at the toy soldier when Rupert had it, and that it wasn't until Clara told him to do as he was told that it occurred to him where they were and who had been lurking under his bed as a child. He did very quickly shut up and do as he was told from that point, so I think he did figure it out then.

Sorry, you're right, I meant Rupert, the little kid. Got my names mixed up.

[Psyren]

2) At some point he has to join the others in the 50th special to "freeze" Gallifrey once his TARDIS finishes the calculations to pull that off.

That does not have to happen during Season 8 at all. After all, 10 was there too, and none of those events showed up during his own run either (for obvious reasons.) Rather, they had a hefty timeskip between wiping Donna Noble's mind and The End Of Time when 10 regenerated, and the events of the 50th were one thing that 10 did during that time.

So they can insert a similar timeskip into 12/13''s run, say Capaldi went back during that, and never have to worry about actually addressing it onscreen.

[Calemyr]

That does not have to happen during Season 8 at all. After all, 10 was there too, and none of those events showed up during his own run either (for obvious reasons.) Rather, they had a hefty timeskip between wiping Donna Noble's mind and The End Of Time when 10 regenerated, and the events of the 50th were one thing that 10 did during that time.

So they can insert a similar timeskip into 12/13''s run, say Capaldi went back during that, and never have to worry about actually addressing it onscreen.

It's implied that 12, like 11, is doing his own thing for the most part and only calling Clara in on special occasions. Kind of like how he did with the Ponds after the whole minotaur fiasco (then he changes his mind and then they "die", might be good encouragement to return to the "special occasions only" rule). There's indefinite stretches of time between each episode because of that.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Caught it last night. Started out really well. "Listen" written on the board, that thing under Rupert's cover, the knocking at the end of time, all good. Then we go to the Doctor's childhood and, yeah, no. I'm done. That was such a freaking lachrymose and preachy ending. I wanted a monster, not a freaking values lecture.

[Razanir]

Caught it last night. Started out really well. "Listen" written on the board, that thing under Rupert's cover, the knocking at the end of time, all good. Then we go to the Doctor's childhood and, yeah, no. I'm done. That was such a freaking lachrymose and preachy ending. I wanted a monster, not a freaking values lecture.

Yep. I don't mind the addition to the mythology of the show. My issue is that the ending came out of left field, compared to the chalkboard and the thing under the blanket.

[dehro]

plus it didn't explain those occurrences.

also.. you guys,.. spoiler tags for another couple of days maybe??

[jedipotter]

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As Capaldi himself stated, that guy was already dead. The Doctor did no murdering. If someone is about to die and you can't do anything about it, then doing nothing isn't murder.

What it most certainly was, was unethical, because the Doctor capitalized on their assumption that he would know what to do in order to get the guy to swallow the tracer pill. Still immoral, but on the level of a lie by omission - not nearly on the level of killing the guy himself.

Spoiler: Umm

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Yea, I don't buy it. So Ross was ''already dead'' when the Doctor gave him the pill? Says who? How was Ross ''about to die'' anymore then Clara or Gretchen?

Is the idea here that the Doctor looked at Ross's time line and saw that it ended in a couple minutes? The Doctor has suggested having such power before. So if ''the Universe'' says person X must die then they must die? Ok, but even if that is true there are problems. Like how is it that every time the Doctor saves someone they just happen to be the ''right one to save''? And how is it all the times the Doctor kills someone or lets someone die they just ''happen'' to be ''dead already''? And why have we never seen something like: Fred ducks behind some boxes as the alien comes in the room. The Doctor looks at Fred and says ''goodbye, the Universe says you must die'' and turns his back. then the alien comes over and kills Fred while he screams ''nooo, Doctor help me!'' and the Doctor just stands there.

And the whole ''well they were going to die anyway'' does not really work for ''it's ok to murder someone''. Say Ross was tied to some train tracks with a train approaching....so he was ''going to die'', so then the Doctor could whip out a blaster and blow Ross's head off and kill him and say ''oh the train was going to kill him anyway''. Really?

You're right, what is left would not really be a Dalek anymore. Old hands to the series know that already. "Good Dalek" is just shorthand, and you have to remember there are some folks coming into the show who will be meeting these creatures for the very first time. You're getting too hung up on trifles here.

Sadly the ''some folks'' is all too often the writers/creators.

They did blow up a couple actually, the problem is that you really have to focus fire to even take down one, and by then you've lost half your side. It's much like the Reapers in Mass Effect. But you keep shooting because, hey, what's the alternative? Run and die tired?

I think the whole thing could have just been done better. Show us like a dozen troopers line up and concentrate their fire to destroy one Dalek and kill it. But have them loose like half the troopers, so the six left are not enough to take out the next Dalek. The battle was just to much 'zap, zap, zap, whatever'.

Because that's not how immuno-response works? Something has to trigger it. You don't just swim in antibodies all the time while perfectly healthy.

No it's not. Antibodies do swim around and look for trouble. They ''patrol'' the area they want to keep safe. White blood cells, for example, float around in your blood all the time.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Umm

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Yea, I don't buy it. So Ross was ''already dead'' when the Doctor gave him the pill? Says who? How was Ross ''about to die'' anymore then Clara or Gretchen?

Is the idea here that the Doctor looked at Ross's time line and saw that it ended in a couple minutes? The Doctor has suggested having such power before. So if ''the Universe'' says person X must die then they must die? Ok, but even if that is true there are problems. Like how is it that every time the Doctor saves someone they just happen to be the ''right one to save''? And how is it all the times the Doctor kills someone or lets someone die they just ''happen'' to be ''dead already''? And why have we never seen something like: Fred ducks behind some boxes as the alien comes in the room. The Doctor looks at Fred and says ''goodbye, the Universe says you must die'' and turns his back. then the alien comes over and kills Fred while he screams ''nooo, Doctor help me!'' and the Doctor just stands there.

And the whole ''well they were going to die anyway'' does not really work for ''it's ok to murder someone''. Say Ross was tied to some train tracks with a train approaching....so he was ''going to die'', so then the Doctor could whip out a blaster and blow Ross's head off and kill him and say ''oh the train was going to kill him anyway''. Really?

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He shot harpoons into the frame of the Dalek. He was still holding the device responsible when they arrived. Any attempt to protect him would have ensured that the antibodies would have hunted down and destroyed the guilty parties. They were likely to in any event, but they wouldn't do so immediately or with extreme prejudice. By using the pill, he was able to follow Russ's remains to the nutrient capsule and get himself and everyone else to safety.

Russ was "already dead" in the sense that there was no way to stop his death and any attempt to do so would only accelerate everyone else's.

The Doctor didn't murder him. He didn't save him, true, but he couldn't. What he did do was abuse Russ's hope that he could be saved to save everyone else. He screwed with Russ's emotions, and readily sacrificed an already condemned man. Nine, Ten, and Eleven would at least tell the man flat out that they couldn't save him, apologizing profusely. That's why he's a bit of a dark Doctor for the new series.

[LokeyITP]

One more for great until the end for Listen, even though the date scenes dragged (probably writing, actors can certainly do better than that). Yes lots of it doesn't make sense and tweaks the ever-changing canon in ways that are mystifying and undercut the up until then pretty decent episode... Doesn't change that the intro was really well done :)

Remember Moffat does love to drop puzzle hints and red herrings, so I wouldn't take dark at face value. The Doctor's killed in cold blood tons of times after all. I could read it as more ambiguous with what we've seen--we won't specifically always know what the Doctor does or why he does it for example (well he could always lie too).

[Calemyr]

One thing I just noticed about Listen:

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Everybody lives! And it's not even a cop out like "the dead get their own afterlife" ending. Nobody dies the entire episode. That hasn't happened since the Witch of the Well.

[jedipotter]

Review:

Spoiler: Listen

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This was quite a bad episode.

So we start with the Doctor getting all crazy about evolution. He picks the hawk as the ''perfect predator'' and the puffer fish and the ''perfect defender''. And wonders what the ''perfect hider'' might be...and goes off on some weird tangent about the word listen and um ''scarey things''.

Meanwhile Carla and Danny have their first date. Yea, more development for Carla. The date goes sour and Carla goes home. This scene was shot poorly and I hate the flashbacks. Why not just, you know, show us the date? The Doctor pops up in the bed room, ''hiding'' in case her date went well.....though he was hiding in her bed room so guess he did not think it would go ''great''. So the Doctor tells her all about his, um, theory of how he is just beyond mad, and crazy and stupid...er, I mean about the ''unseen monster under the bed(shout out to Stomper) dream thing in the corner of your eye that is always with you''.

So the Doctor plugs Clara into the TARDIS to go and see when the, er, ''perfect hider'' or whatever visited her at some point in time. Remember this: they are going to find the ''perfect hider'' whatever.

So Carla's phone rings...does she have a ''cell phone with a signal in every galaxy''? She thinks of Danny and ends up at his home for wayward boys where he was as a little boy...for not reason that can ever make sense. So they are nowhere near Clara and any time she ''felt the whatever'', but look around anyway. Clara spots Danny, who just happens to be up at 2am and goes into the oddly unsecured home for wayward boys. She chats with the boy, Rupert and she tells him not to be scared and all. And the Doctor uses psychic paper...yea!


Then the, um, ''perfect hider whatever'' shows up..maybe. And so does the Doctor.

Now, remember: this is why they are here to find the ''perfect hider whatever''. But when they, maybe, find it....er, the Doctor gets all scared and has everyone turn around and really, really, really is a bad drama queen about it. And then the ''whatever'', maybe, goes away.

Rupert is all scared so Clara gets out the army men to protect his bed. And tells him the one with no weapon is the leader and the most powerful. Sigh, what horrible rubbish. How fast would the ''most powerful'' solder with no weapon last against an alien, bad guy or Darlek....like one second? Then the Doctor uses his psychic powers to scramble Ruperts memories..for no reason.

So they leave...after having totally and utterly failed to solve the mystery of the ''perfect hider whatever'', like they came here to do in the first place. Ok..... Clara wants to go back to her date and break the laws of time and the Doctor says sure. Because she could not just go back a second after she left that night or even just talk to Danny the next day...for no reason. It does give us a nice shout out to Harry Potter when Carla says ''it that what my hair looks like from behind'' the same way Hermione did when they time traveled. Then Carla slips up and calls Danny Rupert and acts all weird and ruins the date a second time.

Then the astronaut shows up and leaders her back to the TARDIS. And it's Orson Pink, from 100 years in the future...that the Doctor went and grabbed...for no reason. And Orson is a time traveler too (what?) who ''popped the clutch'' on his time ship and ended up at The End of Time(what?). Orson has the ''family heirloom'' of Dan the solder and gives it to Clara. And he says his greatgrand father might have traveled in time...mumm, with the Doctor? Where it was just him left in the whole universe.....um....well, him and the ''perfect hider whatever'' that was now some sort of huge Godzilla monster? And now the Doctor suddenly wants to find the ''perfect hider whatever'' again. And he does this by Not opening the door and just letting it in. And the Doctor gets knocked out...

So Clara goes to fly the TARDIS.....and ends up outside a barn.....on Gallifrey?!?

OK

So Clara goes into the barn and sees the little boy crying and when the adults come in she hides under the bed. The adults say all sorts of stuff, ending with ''he must stop crying to be a Time Lord''. Sigh.

Again....look....I do think it is great that after 50 years they want to finally tell everyone the story of the Doctor. Really, as a fan, i'd like to know. But come on! Really, enough of this ''sort of/kind of'' crap. Just tell us! Why go through all the trouble to kinda sorta say the kid in the barn might have been the Kid Doctor? Why not just say that, point blank?

And if anyone from the BBC ever reads this, I'll give you a hint: ''The Life of the Doctor'' would make a great Christmas special! Really, you could promote the wazoo out of it and make tons and tons and tons and tons of money. Everyone(who is a fan) would pay to see ''the Life of the Doctor''.......

Ok, then the little boy gets up....and Clara grabs his ankle. Ok, now speaking for most boys, men and a few women...none of us would have a problem with a cute young woman like Clara Oswald (Or Jenna Colman, wink wink) hiding under our beds and garbing our ankles. Or any other part of your bodies she wanted too.

Then Clara goes on her speech on how great fear is and all and how great everything is and all and she says ''listen'' a couple times. And she tells him fear makes a good companion. and then gives the Kid Doctor ''Dan the solder with no weapon who is ''so powerful'' he needs no weapon. Sigh, and this goes back to the silly stuff of ''to shoot a bad guy is wrong'', but to ''open a black hole and kill them with a spectacular CGI effect is ok''. Sigh...ok, whatever.

She runs back to the Doctor and says ''listen'' don't look where we are, lets just go. And the Doctor does....forgetting all about finding that ''perfect hider whatever''....again.



Things That Don't Make Sense The perfect animals. What? Ok...in the first place, with all the animals of time and space to pick from...why is the Doctor using Earth animals? Could he not find some better alien animals? How are the Earth animals so ''perfect''...but cause they are not. You could say they are ''good'', but perfect is a big stretch.

And the Doctor could not find a ''perfect'' hiding animal? Well, how about an invisible animal? Or if he wanted to pick Earth animals, for no reason, how about a walking stick insect?

So.....why is Doctor 12 suddenly...suddenly all worked up about something that happened 2,000ish years ago when he was a little boy? Why did Doctor 1-11 never mention it?

So Clara things about Danny, and then the TARDIS takes her to young boy Rupert/Danny...er, why? Young Rupert is not in her time stream, so how did they end up ''when he felt the, er, something perfect hider or whatever''. How did Clara know when little Rupert felt the ''whatever''? And why was Clara thinking about little boy Rupert and not adult man Danny?

And ok, say the TARDIS was homing in on the memory that Clara did not have of young boy Rupert feeling scared by the ''whatever', because she thought about the adult man Danny.....why does the TARDIS land so far away? Is there some reason it can't land in Rupert's bed room?

So the ''perfect hider whatever'' also steals cups of coffee? What?

So why does the ''perfect hider whatever'' even get on the bed or under the sheet for that matter?

Why does the Doctor not confront the thing under the sheets? It is why they are there!

Why does the Doctor scramble Rupert's memories? As far as he knows, Rupert is ''no one''. But it sure is super, super lucky that he does that.....or adult Danny would remember meeting Clara as a boy. But why does the Doctor do it?

Why does the Doctor go Grab Orson?

How does mankind invent time travel in 2214ish? Mankind should not be using time travel for centuries. This messes up a lot of stories.

And the End of Time? Again? Was not the Doctor already here? You know back with the 10th Doctor? Was this like after that? So is this the end, end of time, for real this time? Or was this the end of day light savings time or something?

Why was the ''um something'' so scarey? It did not kill Orson over six months, so it could not be so bad. What did it do, give him bad dreams?

Good thing Orson has six months of food and air and water in his time ship, right? Or does he have a replicator too?

So Orson says that hint that ''great-grand dad Danny'' might be a time traveler. Guess we will find out in a couple episodes. But if he is...and if he travels with the Doctor and if he has kids with Clara......why would not Orson know of of that! So pretty little girl Clara shows up with strange Doctor guy...exactly like the granddad story. And..wow..grand mama was named Clara...and......

How did the TARDIS land 2,000ish years ago in Gallifrey's past? Is not that all Time Locked? Was this part of the ''impossible girl that has touched every part of the Doctor's time line''?

So, why does not Gallifrey have like Time Alarms? You'd think they would notice when a time traveler changed Gallifrean history. You'd think they would have an alarm, or even a shield. What is to stop a bad guy...lets say a Darlek from going back in time, killing a butterfly, and obliterating all of Gallifrey?

Er, why do they have barns on Gallifrey anyway? Wow, Gallifrey sure is ''just like Earth''.

So the little crying boy in the barn on Gallifrey did not want to join the army? The Gallifreyan Army? Gallifrey has/had an army? What? Sure they ''drafted'' everyone to fight in the Last Great Time War, but you can't tell me Gallifrey has a standing army....

So does this mean the Kid Doctors family(or the people at the Gallifrean home for wayward boys) were part of the Drop Out Amish-like Gallifreans The Outsiders (The Doc is so a socs)? And they had a Farm?

And, er, no one on Gallifrey 2,000ish years ago found the little plastic army guy with no weapon from the future?

So why is the Doctor ''satitifyed'' he found the answer to the um, whatever question he sort of asked at the start of the show? Sure, we at home...sort of...know the non-answer. But the Doctor does not watch the show. So why does he give up?

And ok....what about the scary something? Is it not real then? All in everyone's minds? So it does not really grab peoples ankles? It does not move and steal coffee cups? It does not go thump in the night? And it does not smash Time Ships at the end of time? Um..ok, then what does do all that? Epically the time ship one....

And what was under them covers anyway?

Missy Aw no Missy. Though they missed a great chance if she is a Time Lord or Clara as she could have been here. Just think....a little dark haired girl out side the barn saying ''come on lets go back inside'' and just hearing the crying. Then someone in the dark says ''Missy, get inside the house! It is late and you should not be outside!''

Final though...it was a bad episode....

[Psyren]

@jedipotter

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Yea, I don't buy it. So Ross was ''already dead'' when the Doctor gave him the pill? Says who? How was Ross ''about to die'' anymore then Clara or Gretchen?

Russ fired the grappling hook and wounded it, remember? Thus the antibodies targeted him. Nobody else was in danger at that moment, it's that simple. None of this "magically read his timeline" nonsense you are going on about.

And the whole ''well they were going to die anyway'' does not really work for ''it's ok to murder someone''. Say Ross was tied to some train tracks with a train approaching....so he was ''going to die'', so then the Doctor could whip out a blaster and blow Ross's head off and kill him and say ''oh the train was going to kill him anyway''. Really?

Again, I specifically said "and you can't do anything about it." If you have a blaster, obviously you try and shoot the ropes. The Doctor didn't. He was powerless to save Russ from the antibodies.

Sadly the ''some folks'' is all too often the writers/creators.

Phil Ford wrote Waters of Mars, one of the most critically acclaimed episodes of NuWho history. I think he knows what he's doing.

No it's not. Antibodies do swim around and look for trouble. They ''patrol'' the area they want to keep safe. White blood cells, for example, float around in your blood all the time.

But you produce more of them when you're under attack. That's how, for example, HIV tests work.

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He shot harpoons into the frame of the Dalek. He was still holding the device responsible when they arrived. Any attempt to protect him would have ensured that the antibodies would have hunted down and destroyed the guilty parties. They were likely to in any event, but they wouldn't do so immediately or with extreme prejudice. By using the pill, he was able to follow Russ's remains to the nutrient capsule and get himself and everyone else to safety.

Russ was "already dead" in the sense that there was no way to stop his death and any attempt to do so would only accelerate everyone else's.

The Doctor didn't murder him. He didn't save him, true, but he couldn't. What he did do was abuse Russ's hope that he could be saved to save everyone else. He screwed with Russ's emotions, and readily sacrificed an already condemned man. Nine, Ten, and Eleven would at least tell the man flat out that they couldn't save him, apologizing profusely. That's why he's a bit of a dark Doctor for the new series.

Exactly.

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10 would have apologized, and would certainly not have gotten the guy to spend his last moments swallowing a pill for the good of everyone (or at least, if he did, he would have explained what it was and let the guy know his sacrifice would mean something.) 12 is callous, absolutely, but he didn't murder Russ.

[Aedilred]

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He shot harpoons into the frame of the Dalek. He was still holding the device responsible when they arrived. Any attempt to protect him would have ensured that the antibodies would have hunted down and destroyed the guilty parties. They were likely to in any event, but they wouldn't do so immediately or with extreme prejudice. By using the pill, he was able to follow Russ's remains to the nutrient capsule and get himself and everyone else to safety.

Russ was "already dead" in the sense that there was no way to stop his death and any attempt to do so would only accelerate everyone else's.

The Doctor didn't murder him. He didn't save him, true, but he couldn't. What he did do was abuse Russ's hope that he could be saved to save everyone else. He screwed with Russ's emotions, and readily sacrificed an already condemned man. Nine, Ten, and Eleven would at least tell the man flat out that they couldn't save him, apologizing profusely. That's why he's a bit of a dark Doctor for the new series.

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Yeah, I'm not sure where the "Doctor murdered Ross" thing is coming from. He wasn't any more responsible than Clara or Gretchen or any of the other people. Being witness to something doesn't make you a murderer. It's not even the case that he could have saved him and chose not to.

Murdering him in that context would have been blowing his face off with a harpoon gun and going "What? He was going to die anyway." He made use of the situation to save himself and others, sure, and the way he did it was kind of a **** move in giving Ross false hope, but that in no way equates to murder.

[huttj509]

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Yeah, I'm not sure where the "Doctor murdered Ross" thing is coming from. He wasn't any more responsible than Clara or Gretchen or any of the other people. Being witness to something doesn't make you a murderer. It's not even the case that he could have saved him and chose not to.

Murdering him in that context would have been blowing his face off with a harpoon gun and going "What? He was going to die anyway." He made use of the situation to save himself and others, sure, and the way he did it was kind of a **** move in giving Ross false hope, but that in no way equates to murder.

Spoiler: Ross

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I think part of it depends on how you interpret what he did. He gave Ross the pill, and as soon as the guy swallowed it, zap. Makes it seem like the pill triggered the attack.

Could still have been a sacrifice play to save the rest, but I think that's the part that galls folks, depending on what the pill did.

[jedipotter]

From Into the Dalek, I re-watched the episode....

Spoiler: Ross

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Ok, Ross sets up a zip line, hurts the Dalek and triggers the antibodies. The Doctor tells everyone to stay still, as the antibodies only want Ross. The Doctor gives Ross a pill, and the Antibodies kill him. Then, for absolutely no reason, the Doctor has everyone run away from the antibodies. And they follow the radiation from the pill that Ross took to the goop room.

So...supposedly the antibodies came just to kill Ross. And they knew...somehow....that Ross and only Ross had hurt the Dalek. So, what, the antibodies checks the security camera? They see Ross, and four other people....but just ignore the other four? Don't they still count as intruders?

Then, suddenly, seconds later, the antibodies do swarm after everyone. Suddenly it does not matter that they did no harm.....the antibodies will not exterminate everything. So why did they wait? To add tension and drama?

And really, I just don't buy the line of ''Ross was dead already'' and ''there was nothing the Doctor could have done.'' Really? Nothing the Doctor could have done. Um, well, how about incapacitating the Antibodies? Or turning them off? Or hacking them to tell them ''Ross is not a threat''? Or maybe just shielding Ross? Gee, seems to me like the Doctor would try something. I'll bet that if Clara had hurt the Dalek he would have hacked into the base code of the Daleks program in 2.2 seconds and turned off the anti-bodies.

[Psyren]

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So, what, the antibodies checks the security camera?

In a word, yes. They respond to stimuli. "Who fired the gun" is more complicated than "the gun itself," sure, but they're inside a hellish organic/AI hybrid.

And really, I just don't buy the line of ''Ross was dead already'' and ''there was nothing the Doctor could have done.'' Really? Nothing the Doctor could have done. Um, well, how about incapacitating the Antibodies? Or turning them off? Or hacking them to tell them ''Ross is not a threat''? Or maybe just shielding Ross?

Nope, nope, nope and nope. "Because plot," sure, but you can say that about literally every other time somebody died and the Doctor was powerless to save them. Nothing new to see here.

I'll bet that if Clara had hurt the Dalek he would have hacked into the base code of the Daleks program in 2.2 seconds and turned off the anti-bodies.

We'll never know, because the simple fact is that she didn't.

EDIT:

Spoiler: Ross

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I think part of it depends on how you interpret what he did. He gave Ross the pill, and as soon as the guy swallowed it, zap. Makes it seem like the pill triggered the attack.

Could still have been a sacrifice play to save the rest, but I think that's the part that galls folks, depending on what the pill did.

They tell you what the pill did. At that point you can either choose to believe it or not.

[dehro]

From Into the Dalek, I re-watched the episode....

Spoiler: Ross

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And really, I just don't buy the line of ''Ross was dead already'' and ''there was nothing the Doctor could have done.'' Really? Nothing the Doctor could have done. Um, well, how about incapacitating the Antibodies? Or turning them off? Or hacking them to tell them ''Ross is not a threat''? Or maybe just shielding Ross? Gee, seems to me like the Doctor would try something. I'll bet that if Clara had hurt the Dalek he would have hacked into the base code of the Daleks program in 2.2 seconds and turned off the anti-bodies.

And you wouldn't have called it an asspull if he'd done that? It seems to me you've decided you didn't like it and are shaping your argumentation around that decision

[Telonius]

Review:

Spoiler: Listen

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This was quite a bad episode.

So we start with the Doctor getting all crazy about evolution. He picks the hawk as the ''perfect predator'' and the puffer fish and the ''perfect defender''. And wonders what the ''perfect hider'' might be...and goes off on some weird tangent about the word listen and um ''scarey things''.

Meanwhile Carla and Danny have their first date. Yea, more development for Carla. The date goes sour and Carla goes home. This scene was shot poorly and I hate the flashbacks. Why not just, you know, show us the date? The Doctor pops up in the bed room, ''hiding'' in case her date went well.....though he was hiding in her bed room so guess he did not think it would go ''great''. So the Doctor tells her all about his, um, theory of how he is just beyond mad, and crazy and stupid...er, I mean about the ''unseen monster under the bed(shout out to Stomper) dream thing in the corner of your eye that is always with you''.

So the Doctor plugs Clara into the TARDIS to go and see when the, er, ''perfect hider'' or whatever visited her at some point in time. Remember this: they are going to find the ''perfect hider'' whatever.

So Carla's phone rings...does she have a ''cell phone with a signal in every galaxy''? She thinks of Danny and ends up at his home for wayward boys where he was as a little boy...for not reason that can ever make sense. So they are nowhere near Clara and any time she ''felt the whatever'', but look around anyway. Clara spots Danny, who just happens to be up at 2am and goes into the oddly unsecured home for wayward boys. She chats with the boy, Rupert and she tells him not to be scared and all. And the Doctor uses psychic paper...yea!


Then the, um, ''perfect hider whatever'' shows up..maybe. And so does the Doctor.

Now, remember: this is why they are here to find the ''perfect hider whatever''. But when they, maybe, find it....er, the Doctor gets all scared and has everyone turn around and really, really, really is a bad drama queen about it. And then the ''whatever'', maybe, goes away.

Rupert is all scared so Clara gets out the army men to protect his bed. And tells him the one with no weapon is the leader and the most powerful. Sigh, what horrible rubbish. How fast would the ''most powerful'' solder with no weapon last against an alien, bad guy or Darlek....like one second? Then the Doctor uses his psychic powers to scramble Ruperts memories..for no reason.

So they leave...after having totally and utterly failed to solve the mystery of the ''perfect hider whatever'', like they came here to do in the first place. Ok..... Clara wants to go back to her date and break the laws of time and the Doctor says sure. Because she could not just go back a second after she left that night or even just talk to Danny the next day...for no reason. It does give us a nice shout out to Harry Potter when Carla says ''it that what my hair looks like from behind'' the same way Hermione did when they time traveled. Then Carla slips up and calls Danny Rupert and acts all weird and ruins the date a second time.

Then the astronaut shows up and leaders her back to the TARDIS. And it's Orson Pink, from 100 years in the future...that the Doctor went and grabbed...for no reason. And Orson is a time traveler too (what?) who ''popped the clutch'' on his time ship and ended up at The End of Time(what?). Orson has the ''family heirloom'' of Dan the solder and gives it to Clara. And he says his greatgrand father might have traveled in time...mumm, with the Doctor? Where it was just him left in the whole universe.....um....well, him and the ''perfect hider whatever'' that was now some sort of huge Godzilla monster? And now the Doctor suddenly wants to find the ''perfect hider whatever'' again. And he does this by Not opening the door and just letting it in. And the Doctor gets knocked out...

So Clara goes to fly the TARDIS.....and ends up outside a barn.....on Gallifrey?!?

OK

So Clara goes into the barn and sees the little boy crying and when the adults come in she hides under the bed. The adults say all sorts of stuff, ending with ''he must stop crying to be a Time Lord''. Sigh.

Again....look....I do think it is great that after 50 years they want to finally tell everyone the story of the Doctor. Really, as a fan, i'd like to know. But come on! Really, enough of this ''sort of/kind of'' crap. Just tell us! Why go through all the trouble to kinda sorta say the kid in the barn might have been the Kid Doctor? Why not just say that, point blank?

And if anyone from the BBC ever reads this, I'll give you a hint: ''The Life of the Doctor'' would make a great Christmas special! Really, you could promote the wazoo out of it and make tons and tons and tons and tons of money. Everyone(who is a fan) would pay to see ''the Life of the Doctor''.......

Ok, then the little boy gets up....and Clara grabs his ankle. Ok, now speaking for most boys, men and a few women...none of us would have a problem with a cute young woman like Clara Oswald (Or Jenna Colman, wink wink) hiding under our beds and garbing our ankles. Or any other part of your bodies she wanted too.

Then Clara goes on her speech on how great fear is and all and how great everything is and all and she says ''listen'' a couple times. And she tells him fear makes a good companion. and then gives the Kid Doctor ''Dan the solder with no weapon who is ''so powerful'' he needs no weapon. Sigh, and this goes back to the silly stuff of ''to shoot a bad guy is wrong'', but to ''open a black hole and kill them with a spectacular CGI effect is ok''. Sigh...ok, whatever.

She runs back to the Doctor and says ''listen'' don't look where we are, lets just go. And the Doctor does....forgetting all about finding that ''perfect hider whatever''....again.



Things That Don't Make Sense The perfect animals. What? Ok...in the first place, with all the animals of time and space to pick from...why is the Doctor using Earth animals? Could he not find some better alien animals? How are the Earth animals so ''perfect''...but cause they are not. You could say they are ''good'', but perfect is a big stretch.

And the Doctor could not find a ''perfect'' hiding animal? Well, how about an invisible animal? Or if he wanted to pick Earth animals, for no reason, how about a walking stick insect?

So.....why is Doctor 12 suddenly...suddenly all worked up about something that happened 2,000ish years ago when he was a little boy? Why did Doctor 1-11 never mention it?

So Clara things about Danny, and then the TARDIS takes her to young boy Rupert/Danny...er, why? Young Rupert is not in her time stream, so how did they end up ''when he felt the, er, something perfect hider or whatever''. How did Clara know when little Rupert felt the ''whatever''? And why was Clara thinking about little boy Rupert and not adult man Danny?

And ok, say the TARDIS was homing in on the memory that Clara did not have of young boy Rupert feeling scared by the ''whatever', because she thought about the adult man Danny.....why does the TARDIS land so far away? Is there some reason it can't land in Rupert's bed room?

So the ''perfect hider whatever'' also steals cups of coffee? What?

So why does the ''perfect hider whatever'' even get on the bed or under the sheet for that matter?

Why does the Doctor not confront the thing under the sheets? It is why they are there!

Why does the Doctor scramble Rupert's memories? As far as he knows, Rupert is ''no one''. But it sure is super, super lucky that he does that.....or adult Danny would remember meeting Clara as a boy. But why does the Doctor do it?

Why does the Doctor go Grab Orson?

How does mankind invent time travel in 2214ish? Mankind should not be using time travel for centuries. This messes up a lot of stories.

And the End of Time? Again? Was not the Doctor already here? You know back with the 10th Doctor? Was this like after that? So is this the end, end of time, for real this time? Or was this the end of day light savings time or something?

Why was the ''um something'' so scarey? It did not kill Orson over six months, so it could not be so bad. What did it do, give him bad dreams?

Good thing Orson has six months of food and air and water in his time ship, right? Or does he have a replicator too?

So Orson says that hint that ''great-grand dad Danny'' might be a time traveler. Guess we will find out in a couple episodes. But if he is...and if he travels with the Doctor and if he has kids with Clara......why would not Orson know of of that! So pretty little girl Clara shows up with strange Doctor guy...exactly like the granddad story. And..wow..grand mama was named Clara...and......

How did the TARDIS land 2,000ish years ago in Gallifrey's past? Is not that all Time Locked? Was this part of the ''impossible girl that has touched every part of the Doctor's time line''?

So, why does not Gallifrey have like Time Alarms? You'd think they would notice when a time traveler changed Gallifrean history. You'd think they would have an alarm, or even a shield. What is to stop a bad guy...lets say a Darlek from going back in time, killing a butterfly, and obliterating all of Gallifrey?

Er, why do they have barns on Gallifrey anyway? Wow, Gallifrey sure is ''just like Earth''.

So the little crying boy in the barn on Gallifrey did not want to join the army? The Gallifreyan Army? Gallifrey has/had an army? What? Sure they ''drafted'' everyone to fight in the Last Great Time War, but you can't tell me Gallifrey has a standing army....

So does this mean the Kid Doctors family(or the people at the Gallifrean home for wayward boys) were part of the Drop Out Amish-like Gallifreans The Outsiders (The Doc is so a socs)? And they had a Farm?

And, er, no one on Gallifrey 2,000ish years ago found the little plastic army guy with no weapon from the future?

So why is the Doctor ''satitifyed'' he found the answer to the um, whatever question he sort of asked at the start of the show? Sure, we at home...sort of...know the non-answer. But the Doctor does not watch the show. So why does he give up?

And ok....what about the scary something? Is it not real then? All in everyone's minds? So it does not really grab peoples ankles? It does not move and steal coffee cups? It does not go thump in the night? And it does not smash Time Ships at the end of time? Um..ok, then what does do all that? Epically the time ship one....

And what was under them covers anyway?

Missy Aw no Missy. Though they missed a great chance if she is a Time Lord or Clara as she could have been here. Just think....a little dark haired girl out side the barn saying ''come on lets go back inside'' and just hearing the crying. Then someone in the dark says ''Missy, get inside the house! It is late and you should not be outside!''

Final though...it was a bad episode....

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The thing with the coffee ... about four seconds after the scene where the coffee disappears, so has the Doctor. Next shot of him, he's in a different room and taking a sip out of the coffee cup. I got a good laugh out of that.

[jedipotter]

And you wouldn't have called it an asspull if he'd done that? It seems to me you've decided you didn't like it and are shaping your argumentation around that decision

Nah, I loved it. I like the Chaotic Evil Doctor. I like the Doctor that traps folks in chains of dwarf star alloy and drops them in black holes. Muhahahha....

I know Doctor 12 gets a lot of hype for being 'dark', but really, the Doctor has been 'dark' from Doctor One.

[BWR]

"Listen" was ****. It oculd have been ok - in a sort of vashta neraada (sp?) sort of way, but it was horrible. Again Clara is the most important person in the Doctor's history. No to mention the rest of the show didn't make any sense at all.
Clara needs to be removed from the show permanently. The person Clara is ok. The character and what she does in the show is horrible. I am ****ing sick to death of the companion saving the day and doing everything important while the Doctor is basically just the enabler rather than the fixer. Someone please remove Moffat from ther series and put someone who understands this in charge. Moffat needs stop writing any old **** 'because it's cool' and expecting it to work. It doesn't. It's stupid and insulting.

The good: Capaldi is quickly overtaking Eccleston as my favorite nuWho Doctor. He just needs to be allowed to do stuff, not just react and let Clara be the true fixer.

[Kato]

[...]while the Doctor is basically just the enabler rather than the fixer.

Putting aside my general disagreement, this sounds really, really wrong (Though, maybe intentionally)

The thing is, since NuWho EVERY (main) companion (except Martha) was somehow "teh most important!!!11!!111!!!11!" being in the universe. Bad Wolf reality warper undying love interest Rose, the most important person in the universe Doctor!Donna, Amy a little less maybe but she was still oh so precious to Eleven, possibly only because she was the first thing he saw after regenerating (I've long wondered if timelords are like new born ducklings in that regard). It's nothing new with Clara, it's just a different take on it. Of course you are free to dislike it, I'm just saying.

[dehro]

I'd rather have the companions fix things as a semi-regular occurrence than having companions just be along for the ride and stare wild-eyed and in adoration at the Doctor whilst he proceeds to wave his sonic magic wand and fix eveyrthing by the power of showing up. If the Doctor has to be the sole protagonist and fixer of everything he might as well have a stuffed parrot for companion, so no, whether it's Moffat or someone else, I'm happy to see them let the companions save the day at least as much as the doctor himself. Whether it's a good episode, well written and with a consistent plot is much more important to me than frowning at the notion of having the companions steal the show from the doctor.
I'm guessing that that's a matter of personal preference though... Though I admit that if getting to that result requires the Doctor to take hold of the idiot ball too often, it gets on my tits as well.

[factotum]

There's a difference between the companion being important in their own right, or being important emotionally to the Doctor, and the companion being *more important* than the Doctor. For instance, look at the first series of NuWho: Rose's importance was never revealed until the series finale, and until that point she never once overshadowed the Doctor or saved the day where he could not. Clara is doing both, and she's doing it *all the time*.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Nah, I loved it. I like the Chaotic Evil Doctor. I like the Doctor that traps folks in chains of dwarf star alloy and drops them in black holes. Muhahahha....

I know Doctor 12 gets a lot of hype for being 'dark', but really, the Doctor has been 'dark' from Doctor One.

Personally I never judge a Doctor by their first season, since the writers haven't figured out his new voice yet.

Eccleston: One season, least memorable of the NuDoctors. I know how everyone will react to that comment...

Tennant: First season was Eccleston + Wacky, and then he became The Fury of the Time Lords I loved so much.

Smith: First season was worst writing I have seen Moffat do, and that says something. Too wacky and whimsical. Later seasons, especially after the costume change, got dramatically better. The Doctor's always better with a little regret thrown into the mad man in a box.

Capaldi: It's Latter-Day Smith, but he occasionally forgets he's not the Sixth Doctor. Tone down the Clara-sue and we'll see how he plays out.

[dehro]

There's a difference between the companion being important in their own right, or being important emotionally to the Doctor, and the companion being *more important* than the Doctor. For instance, look at the first series of NuWho: Rose's importance was never revealed until the series finale, and until that point she never once overshadowed the Doctor or saved the day where he could not. Clara is doing both, and she's doing it *all the time*.

by canon she's in his timestream precisely to be something of a guiding light.. I'm guessing the writers put themselves in something of a corner in that respect by not killing her off once her being in the timestream was not relevant to the Doctor's survival anymore. Right now, circumstances kind of force them to make her relevant into shaping this new Doctor (and through him, all Doctors) until they find a way out. Whether she/her current self is aware of this or not, they must find a way for the Doctor to say "To Clara Oswald, thanks for everything" and phase her out gradually.. but it's going to take a while for her to go from that to being a regular person with less of an impact on things. Her developing a lovelife outside (so far) the confines of the Tardis is the first step towards that end, I reckon. Sooner or later the Doctor will cut this umbilical cord and Clara will either vamoose from time or die or simply grow old and move on.
As for the "more important than the Doctor" it's a flawed argument because in most if not all cases, the Doctor's presence or existence remains the catalyst for the events, which wouldn't happen at all if not for him, and that remains true however those events are solved (or by whomever).
In fact, between Pandorica, cracks in time and the all important first question, the plot revolving around the Doctor being the Doctor and shaping stuff around him was a major thing, one that led to the breaking of everything. Clara being his life-raft until he finds a new overarching plot to investigate is kind of a new iteration of the same theme... one that I guess will end as soon as the next big thing becomes apparent. I don't expect this to happen anytime in this season.
Such a theme is made necessary to avoid the Doctor becoming an unstoppable Gary Stu with no boundaries or limitations.. it's either allowing him to become Superman, or allowing someone else to shine on a regular basis in order to keep him engaging. In terms of single episodes, their success at doing this and striking the right balance has been hit and miss, so far.

[BWR]

Putting aside my general disagreement, this sounds really, really wrong (Though, maybe intentionally)

I intended to say what I said but I guess that you see something I don't. The Doctor has under Moffat had an annoying tendency to not solve so much as set the stage for the companions to solve things rather than fix things himself. He enables others to save the day rather than doing it himself. Clara is the worst, but it happened before her too.

The thing is, since NuWho EVERY (main) companion (except Martha) was somehow "teh most important!!!11!!111!!!11!" being in the universe. Bad Wolf reality warper undying love interest Rose, the most important person in the universe Doctor!Donna, Amy a little less maybe but she was still oh so precious to Eleven, possibly only because she was the first thing he saw after regenerating (I've long wondered if timelords are like new born ducklings in that regard). It's nothing new with Clara, it's just a different take on it. Of course you are free to dislike it, I'm just saying.

I guess that's why I dislike most of the nu companions apart from Martha (and Jack, however briefly he was there). I'm fine with companions being competant and interesting and able to do stuff on their own. I like that they have personalities and abilities apart from needing the Doctor to explain everything and rescue them all the time. I am not ok with the show focusing more on them and having them constantly overshadow or outperform the Doctor. I can excuse Ian and Barbara because they were the first (and I'm very nostalgic by nature). In nuWho, things have been far worse. Like factotum said, Clara is being the most important thing too often.

@Dehro

As for the "more important than the Doctor" it's a flawed argument because in most if not all cases, the Doctor's presence or existence remains the catalyst for the events, which wouldn't happen at all if not for him, and that remains true however those events are solved (or by whomever).

But you're agreeing with me! The Doctor enables others to save the day rather than doing it himself. He is an enabler, not a fixer. It's fine that there are the odd story like this but it's becoming a constant thing.