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Thread: Archlich LA
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2014-08-24, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Archlich LA
Reasonably certain the Archlich (MoF 90) has no listed LA. If that's the case, then what would be fair for it?
It's basically a lich with the following changes:
- Good alignment
- Turning immunity (still vulnerable to rebuke/command)
- Animate dead at will, CL=Character level.
- Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead (Lich's choice) 3+Cha/Day
- 3/Day, can project for 1 hour up to 1 mile from its body. Send incorporeal body, can see and go ethereal at will, can speak normally and move through all barriers including force effects. Doesn't technically use the word "incorporeal," only "wraithlike," but I assume it would interact similarly with AMF.
- Water Walk at will.
If I missed a listed LA, please tell me where I can find it.
Basic Lich is LA+4. How do you rate Archliches?Last edited by bekeleven; 2014-08-24 at 04:07 AM.
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2014-08-24, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
Same as the normal lich, its basically a variant lich.
It gains a few abilities, but I also think it loses several abilities the normal lich has such as the paralysis.
Probably would have been made a deathless instead of an undead, if the deathless type existed at that time. And being Deathless is generally considered being worse than being undead. If you make it deathless, might even be able to drop the LA down to +3, but don't quote me on that.
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2014-08-24, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
I don't see where they lose any abilities. I looked specifically for paralyzing touch.
That said, the RAW is marginally ambiguous over whether they get projection. It even states that they get all normal lich abilities plus animate dead as a spell-like, turning immunity, water walk, andmetamagic fuelturn undead.Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw power from legendary heroes.|The Dashing Dualist: Two weapons. One happy ending.|The Shifter: Be all that you can be.|The Professional: Mundanes, competent.|The Wuxia Fighter: Mundanes, Wacky.|The Generalist: Do literally everything.
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2014-08-24, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
RAW they'd gain 0 LA, because if a template doesn't state it changes something (like the base creature's LA) it doesn't.
And as the lich is already over LA-ed, keeping it at +4 seems more than enough.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2014-08-24, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-08-24, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
If you wanna go by the book no LA change is needed.
But if you judge that some of the extra abilities give too much of an edge on a current situation,
you can increase LA by 1.
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2014-08-24, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
Actually not. It is a common mistake to think it is. Look at the rules for Improving Monsters.
Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."Last edited by Inevitability; 2014-08-24 at 12:52 PM.
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2014-08-24, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
Regular Lich isn't worth +4 by a longshot. It also already costs 128k GP and a handful of experience and a feat tax to even craft the phylactery, and the bonuses the templates give you are primarily defensive, which would largely be supplanted by having more spell slots to buff yourself with anyway.
It'd still call it +2 at best. Almost nothing will ever be as good as 2 levels of casting, though.If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2014-08-24, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
It's not a mistake. It's a commonly known fact.
Originally Posted by 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide pg200
If you see "LA: - (cohort)" then that means it is alright for you to have a cohort (animal companion, leadership, improved familiar) as one of these, but not have a player character play one.Last edited by HunterOfJello; 2014-08-24 at 01:22 PM.
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2014-08-24, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
That quote refers to creatures, not to templates. A base monster with no listed LA absolutely is LA --. However, the rules for applying templates which Dire Stirge also linked clearly state the following.
Originally Posted by SRDLast edited by WhamBamSam; 2014-08-24 at 02:02 PM.
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2014-08-24, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
That's already been addressed briefly. But what's also worth noting is that almost no 3.0 Templates include LA even ones that clearly should, Half-Golem for example. And Archlich is 3.0, so it might be worth ruling something in any case it's not reasonable to expect that a DM at an actual table would allow it for 0 LA, even if the rules were that way, and I'm fairly sure that they're not. It wouldn't be a reasonable expectation.
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2014-08-24, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-08-24, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
That's a fair point. Some 3.0 templates could fall under the "may need updating" clause that covers things like the Wilderness Lore and Scry skills not existing. Was LA even a thing back in 2001?
On the other hand, there is an official update document to Magic of Faerun from 2006 which makes no mention of doing anything with the archlich.
True. And at CL=character level, it actually gives you a pretty nice sized and almost infinitely replaceable undead army to control.
So a more accurate assessment would be that an Archlich should be somewhere in between what's fair for a lich and what's fair for a vampire.
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2014-08-24, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archlich LA
It's worth noting that the same happened with every other template that was updated to 3.5. Such as a again the half-golem. LA wasn't consistently a thing back then, no. I imagine that it would be more likely to be excluded out of hand if you try to run it with no LA. RAW is all well and good, but you have to occasionally look at what people at a reasonable table are going to do, and allow a Lich style template with no LA is not a very likely answer.
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