General Marvel Comics thread

[Logic]

What are you reading right now?

Currently, it is Amazing Spider-Man (not the learning to Crawl sub-print) Ultimate Spider-Man, The All New Ultimates, Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Spider-Man 2099.

I am also going to buy every coming I see with Spider-Verse along the top, whether my wife likes it or not.

[SeeDarkly_X]

You have the advantage of me, sir. I was indeed confusing the two. It's been many, many years since I looked at those.
Hey, at least I got the Christmas Eve part right.

If it makes you feel any better, you made me doubt myself enough to do my research to be sure.
Also.. you've clearly been reading it longer than I.

[GameSpawn]

What are you reading right now?..

Amazing Spider-man (though not the "learning to crawl" bit), Spiderman 2099, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, All-new X-Factor, X-Force, X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, All-new X-Men, Amazing X-Men, Wolverine and the X-Men, Magneto, Cyclops, Storm, Nightcrawler, Moon Knight (the first Brian Wood issue was quite good; it was similar in tone to Ellis's run, and it looks like Wood will be building on the character), Loki, New Warriors, Mighty Avengers, New Avengers, Elektra, Silver Surfer, Ultimate Spider-man, All-New Ultimates, Inhuman, and Avengers Undercover.

I was also reading Uncanny Avengers, but after that last story arc, I'm not really feeling the need to pick up any more issues.

Also, I'm so happy Avengers Undercover is ending. Man, this book was beyond awful, I've never read something so sexist and misathropist and even bigoted against people with PTSD (not to mention that guy saying he was bound to turn evil because he was bullied for being gay). At the end even covers started to annoy me. Especially last one, Attack on Titan refference - because book whose whole premise was that if you are not perfect, if youre willing to compromise, if you are suffering from trauma, if you are hurt insade, you should give up and join villains sure as hell is one who should make refferences towards series about how humans, despite all their weaknesses and all the loses, should never give up fighting. Without a single trace of irony or parody, but iwth a straight face.
Dang it, I never hated book so much as I do Arena and Undercover, Even One More Day is Shakespeare next to this two pieces of bat guano.

Well let's talk about it !

I'm not sure why you think the series is sexist or misanthropic, though I'm happy to listen to you argue the point. I'm not quite clear why you think it's bigoted against people with PTSD either, actually.

Spoiler: Sort of spoilers for Avengers Undercover

Show

Maybe I've forgotten something, but I really buy that Cullen turned evil because he was gay (in point of fact, the argument that Deathlocket turned evil because she was straight is probably stronger, though that's also a stretch). In general, the cast were all feeling ostracized from society following the events of Murder World, and found that the villains were more accepting of them than the rest of the world. This made them, in some cases, sympathetic to the villains.

...because book whose whole premise was that if you are not perfect, if youre willing to compromise, if you are suffering from trauma, if you are hurt insade, you should give up and join villainsl...

Could you explain why you think that's the premise of the book? Did the writer say something to that effect IRL? In the book, the cast decides to pretend to join the villains in order to take them down from the inside and regain the trust of the world's heroes. Sure, two characters who aren't in on the plan start working with the villains for real, but I think that plays into the message that people will be tempted to join whatever group is willing to accept them, even if they don't like other aspects of that group.

As a side note, I wonder if they'll roll Avengers Undercover into something else when it ends. I think it's kind of neat that you can trace the thread of the various series all the way back to Civil War, despite not individually lasting that long.

[BRC]

Could you explain why you think that's the premise of the book? Did the writer say something to that effect IRL? In the book, the cast decides to pretend to join the villains in order to take them down from the inside and regain the trust of the world's heroes. Sure, two characters who aren't in on the plan start working with the villains for real, but I think that plays into the message that people will be tempted to join whatever group is willing to accept them, even if they don't like other aspects of that group.
[/SPOILER]

As a side note, I wonder if they'll roll Avengers Undercover into something else when it ends. I think it's kind of neat that you can trace the thread of the various series all the way back to Civil War, despite not individually lasting that long.

Spoiler: Avengers Undercover

Show

The big tagline of Avengers Undercover was "THESE CHARACTERS HAVE HAD TERRIBLE THINGS HAPPEN TO THEM! NOW ONE OF THEM WILL TURN EVIL!!!!!!!! BUT WHICH ONE!"
Just like the tagline for Avengers Arena was "WHICH OF THESE CHARACTERS WILL DIE!"

"A CHARACTER WILL DIE!" and "A CHARACTER WILL SWITCH SIDES!" are two standard comic book hype builders. Trying to base a series off each of them, using a mix of beloved characters and new ones, is kind of a stupid idea, but anyway. The Comic ties the idea of the kid's Trauma, and the inevitable "ONE CHARACTER TURNS EVIL!" together. Admittedly, this is more in presentation than in plot.

[GameSpawn]

Spoiler: Avengers Undercover

Show

The big tagline of Avengers Undercover was "THESE CHARACTERS HAVE HAD TERRIBLE THINGS HAPPEN TO THEM! NOW ONE OF THEM WILL TURN EVIL!!!!!!!! BUT WHICH ONE!"
Just like the tagline for Avengers Arena was "WHICH OF THESE CHARACTERS WILL DIE!"

"A CHARACTER WILL DIE!" and "A CHARACTER WILL SWITCH SIDES!" are two standard comic book hype builders. Trying to base a series off each of them, using a mix of beloved characters and new ones, is kind of a stupid idea, but anyway. The Comic ties the idea of the kid's Trauma, and the inevitable "ONE CHARACTER TURNS EVIL!" together. Admittedly, this is more in presentation than in plot.

There was some disconnect between how the series was presented and how it was written. More fundamentally, though, there's a difference between something occurring in a book and the book's premise being that that reaction is something people (or even that particular character) should have done. I'm sure we can all come up with some examples of stories where the protagonist is less of a role model and more of a cautionary example.

Spoiler: Even more Avengers Undercover spoilers

Show

Although whether Cullen and Deathlocket will even end up being villains in the end is pretty uncertain. Certainly, the rest of the cast doesn't think the two are beyond redemption.

[Man on Fire]

Could you explain why you think that's the premise of the book?

Because in the very first press release about this series he said "The kids go after Arcade but they all have PTSD so maybe they belong with the villains". And quite frankly, with how it potrays PTSD, it only goes downhill. Like with Nico who now, when she shows symphtoms of PTSD, suddenly is afraid of turning evil like her parents. Which she never was afraid of before. Runaways aren't heroes because they don't want to turn out like their parents, they are heroes because they want to repay for the crimes their parents committed and clear the family name. And then she goes on an inner monologue rant about how Chase is so much better than her because he came out of this mess unaffected and book does nothing to prove her wrong. In fact it agrees with this sentiment in the way she is potrayed in the begining, when series clearly plays her as being in wrong for daring to isolate herself from her friends, which is what many people with PTSD do, andChase as much better because he "came back". Book does nothing to challenge that viewpoint, painting her trauma as somehow making her worse than person without it.
There is also a lot of ignorance in how PTSD works. It's not making you more subjectable to giving in to more, lets call it, "mean" urges. Yes, some people with PTSD show much increased levels of hedonistic thendencies, but not all of them and in fact those who show thendencies towards nihilism are less likely to act hedonistic. Yet here we are Nico, who goes from behavior typical for a person with high level of post-traumatic "present pesimis", which is unlikely to go together with present hedonism, into full-blown three months of sex and drinking with Alex Wilder. Hell, the whole idea Chase is unaffected by events of Murderworld is another sign of ignorance - he clearly shows increased levels of present hedonism, but the book refuses to acknowledge it and tries to prove he is fine.
While we are at it, same thing with firggin Aiden, who basically is completely unaffected by whole thing and don't even morun his supposed "love", who died to save him. No, apparently he quickly got over it so now he can be free to help Hazmat get over Mettle. Which quite frankly looks very sexist - basically Jen is "cured" by Aiden the Barbarian's penis. It also unsettingly ties in how many people feel Aiden is Hopeless' self-insert. I mean, fat, redhead nerd writing about fat, redhead nerd who gets body out of Frank Frazetta painting, kills his bully, girl he had a crush on falls in love with him and when she dies he gets new one without doing anything for it and suddenly people want him to be a leader? Sounds fishy.
Equally fishy as Alex, who gets Nico despite acting towards her as most creepy jerk, straigt-out bullying her and making her uncomfortable despite her repeadet pleas to stop (and yet when she snaps at him it's shown as her being mentally unstable) and yet she is only allowed to call him on it after abovementioned three months of not leaving his bed (and apparently she too is "cured" by his penis, even through no amount of love or sex can cure trauma. Or anything for that matter). This is where sexist part comes from ,the way the story treats Nico and Hazmat as prizes for Aiden and Alex that they are apparently "entitled" too. And from how book all the time showes Nico's breasts upfront and in other ways sexualizes her, despite her being underage. And also from the fact how Cammi, who is your typical "butch woman" that rejects any sort of feminity, is shown as better than other women and always right when coming in conflict with them, perpetuating a very harmful stereotype that women can only be competent and useful if the abbandon all that is stereotypically perceived as feminine and act exactly like men. Cammi is also the highest proof of misanthropy, being this walking perfection who is always right despite being obsessed about keeping ehr sense of moral purity and is only one to reject the idea of infiltrating the bad guys because that would be making compromise. Instead she abbandons her friends, because apparently if you are making compromises, you are worthless and can be discarded and yet is there with morally pure "Avengers" (quotation because of of those Avengers some of them weren't ever a members of any incarnation of the team) to save the day, showing her as true hero. And in the end she single-handely saves the day aly one who could do thatnd gets others "redeption" because she is pure so she is the on. Add to this the fact Hopeless thinks that if kids killed Arcade for real, they would be beyond redemption and we have the same misanthropic, black and white worldview where you are either moral perfection or a rotten bastard, that stands behind so many horrible comics like Maximum Carnage. It's the same hipocritical belief that makes me hate Spider-man and Batman, who upholds it.
And is it only me or it's unsetting that out of the cast three white, straight people, two men and a woman, are shown as being unaffected by traumatic events while three women of color and a gay guy are more or less "broken"? Especially when that first group is repeadetly potrayed as better?

As for what happens with the kids now - I want Nico and Chase to go back to Runaways, where they belong. They can take Jen with them. Rest can go to hell and I hope next time they show up they'll die brutal death. Including Alex, if he survived this awful book.

[Thrudd]

Anybody else read Captain Marvel #7 yet?

Spoiler: Chewie

Show

Chewie is a flerken?! I guess cats really are from space.

[Kitten Champion]

Anybody else read Captain Marvel #7 yet?

Spoiler: Chewie

Show

Chewie is a flerken?! I guess cats really are from space.

Well, Chewie was already from alternate dimension. Carol just never bothered asking why she showed up again in her apartment.

[BRC]

Well, Chewie was already from alternate dimension. Carol just never bothered asking why she showed up again in her apartment.

Is there a backstory to Chewie? I thought Chewie was just Carol's Flerken Cat.

[Kitten Champion]

Is there a backstory to Chewie?.

Hmmm... well, now that I'm remembering more clearly, there is actually a reason for Chewie to have crossed the walls of reality to wind up with Carol, so her lack of skepticism is understandable.

It begins with an insane inter-dimensional sorcerer, he had lingering issues from the whole House of M quantum debacle and ended up dragging Carol to alternate realities trying to kill her... as insane inter-dimensional sorcerers are want to do.

While fighting for her life Carol - in a moment of inspired super-heroism - used a cat she happened to stumble across as a projectile weapon, launching her claws-first against the evil magician just as he was casting his ultimate death spell of some sort. Thus the sorcerer failed his concentration check and the spell he was casting literally blew up in his face. He disappeared, apparently taking the cat with him, and the day was saved.

A relatively short while later back at Carol's 616 Manhattan apartment, the cat reappears... and unfortunately is briefly followed by the decidedly less adorable sorcerer. Then more stuff happens involving magic laser beams and the like, including a team-up with Dr. Strange, and Carol winds up with the cat. We soon learn that Carol loves Star Wars and is a fairly responsible pet owner, but Chewie becomes more or less a background object from then on.

So, more of a backstory than most pets.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
So, more of a backstory than most pets.

And here I thought my cat was cool because we adopted her from a junkyard.

[comicshorse]

It begins with an insane inter-dimensional sorcerer, he had lingering issues from the whole House of M quantum debacle and ended up dragging Carol to alternate realities trying to kill her... as insane inter-dimensional sorcerers are want to do.

While fighting for her life Carol - in a moment of inspired super-heroism - used a cat she happened to stumble across as a projectile weapon, launching her claws-first against the evil magician just as he was casting his ultimate death spell of some sort. Thus the sorcerer failed his concentration check and the spell he was casting literally blew up in his face. He disappeared, apparently taking the cat with him, and the day was saved.

Another lost battle for the wizards in their age old war against cats

[Shinken]

Anyone following X-men here? I have a few questions.

[Man on Fire]

I don't follow them too closely, but ask away.

Spoiler

Show

And yes, Charles Xavier indeed married Mystique

[SeeDarkly_X]

Anyone following X-men here? I have a few questions.

I collect every "X-men" title without "Wolverine" in the name. (And that one will apparently be replaced with a Spider-Man & the X-men title soon!)

Also X-factor... but not X-force.

[Shinken]

Is Cyclops still a wanted criminal? Because it seems like he is now on speaking terms with the others. I stopped reading All New X-men when Kitty went to Cyclops' school, but the wiki says she is only on a leave of absence. How does that work? "Oh, I'm just gonna go over there and be a supervillain, I'll be back in a few months"?

[Thrudd]

Is Cyclops still a wanted criminal? Because it seems like he is now on speaking terms with the others. I stopped reading All New X-men when Kitty went to Cyclops' school, but the wiki says she is only on a leave of absence. How does that work? "Oh, I'm just gonna go over there and be a supervillain, I'll be back in a few months"?

Yes, he's still technically wanted by SHIELD and the government, and most of Wolverine's crew have still not really forgiven him. I wouldn't call it "speaking terms", they barely tolerate his presence during serious circumstances. He's not a supervillain in any sense, though. He's totally apologetic of what happened, though maybe still not completely accepting that he shares the blame with the Phoenix Force. He's acting more "chaotic good" at this point, helping/rescuing new mutants while evading government forces.

Kitty made it pretty clear she was quitting the school, because she felt unsupported. But it isn't like they wouldn't welcome her back, they didn't want her to leave. She's mainly concerned with taking care of the original X-Men. I'm sure if the original X-Men go back there, she will, too.

[Shinken]

Ah, I understand, thanks.
Wish this whole debacle would end. They could have a trial for Cyclops and have him cut a deal with the government. I don't know, something like leading a government-sponsored X-Force. I'm sick of the Schism thing already (though I liked it back then, actually).

[Thrudd]

Ah, I understand, thanks.
Wish this whole debacle would end. They could have a trial for Cyclops and have him cut a deal with the government. I don't know, something like leading a government-sponsored X-Force. I'm sick of the Schism thing already (though I liked it back then, actually).

I feel like Prof X is going to have to resolve the issue. He is in heaven right now, he was seen briefly and he TP'd with at least one of them while the X-Men were there helping Nightcrawler. Also, I think a part of his consciousness has been preserved or resurrected due to Red Skull's actions, based on the recent Uncanny Avengers. These two things together make me think he might be coming back, at least briefly or in non-physical form, and when he does he will help the X-Men heal the schism, and possibly get Cyclops off the hook with SHIELD. Also, Red Skull's upcoming mutant hunting holocaust will likely bring the X-Men together in a big way, and stuff that happens during these events could contribute to getting Cyclops off the hook with the government. This is just speculation, of course.

[SeeDarkly_X]

Ah, I understand, thanks.
Wish this whole debacle would end. They could have a trial for Cyclops and have him cut a deal with the government. I don't know, something like leading a government-sponsored X-Force. I'm sick of the Schism thing already (though I liked it back then, actually).

It would appear that the intent is to have the current "Will of Xavier" story be a way to bridge the teams toward unity again...
But the bottom line will always be that Cyclops killed him, and if that gets dismissed with a quick resolution, it would be lame.

Spoiler: There's a scene where McCoy...

Show

admits the he's known all along where Cyclops has been and his excuse for not telling anyone so they could go after him was effectively... "why does everything we do have to be about Scott Summers?"

I think the upcoming AXIS and death of Wolverine is also supposed to lead to the mending of fences, though I've no idea to what extent.

[Thrudd]

It would appear that the intent is to have the current "Will of Xavier" story be a way to bridge the teams toward unity again...
But the bottom line will always be that Cyclops killed him, and if that gets dismissed with a quick resolution, it would be lame.

Spoiler: There's a scene where McCoy...

Show

admits the he's known all along where Cyclops has been and his excuse for not telling anyone so they could go after him was effectively... "why does everything we do have to be about Scott Summers?"

I think the upcoming AXIS and death of Wolverine is also supposed to lead to the mending of fences, though I've no idea to what extent.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to AXIS, seems they will finally get around to dealing with Red Skull.

[Shinken]

I was really excited about AXIS... and then they revealed that stupid subplot about heroes becoming villains and vice-versa. I couldn't care less about that.

I'm still gonna read it, I'm just not gonna be very excited about it.

[Thrudd]

I was really excited about AXIS... and then they revealed that stupid subplot about heroes becoming villains and vice-versa. I couldn't care less about that.

I'm still gonna read it, I'm just not gonna be very excited about it.

Yeah, that part of it I'm not so excited about. But I am curious what will happen with Cyclops, Magneto, and the X-Men in general.

[Shinken]

Yeah, that part of it I'm not so excited about. But I am curious what will happen with Cyclops, Magneto, and the X-Men in general.

By the way, can you tell me more or less what x-book is about? The only one I'm reading is X-Factor (which is hardly an x-book, after all).
I know Wolverine & the X-men is about the Jean Grey school.
Uncanny X-men is about Cyclops' school.
All New X-men is about the O5.

That leaves Amazing X-men and X-men. I read the first X-men issue and I liked it a lot but for some reason I never read more of it. Gonna catch some of it in Unlimited, I guess.

[Thrudd]

Both series feature Jean Grey school X-Men doing dealing with issues mostly outside of the school.

The first story arc of Amazing X-Men is about the return of Nightcrawler from the afterlife. Firestar joins the team/faculty. There is a brief appearance by Spiderman. The current storyline is dealing with a wendigo problem in Canada and Alpha Flight is involved. So far the team is Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Iceman, Firestar, Northstar, Beast was involved in the first part and Colossus has joined up now.

X-Men is an all female team, as you've seen, all from the Jean Grey school faction. I'm not caught up on this series yet, but they've been dealing with an intelligent ancient cosmic nano virus that is recruiting evil lady villains to help her infect the world. Storm is the leader, Jubilee is central, there's Rachel Grey, Psylocke, Monet St.Croix and Karima Shapandar (with omega sentinel deactived or removed, so she is de-powered).

There are also a few solo X-Men titles that started not long ago, Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Magneto, and Storm. Cyclops is about O5 Cyclops going to space with his father and the Starjammers, I'm digging it.

[Shinken]

I was going to buy Cyclops, somehow I forgot.

[GameSpawn]

Hey Man on Fire: sorry it took me so long to reply. Works been crazy the last few weeks.

Because in the very first press release about this series he said "The kids go after Arcade but they all have PTSD so maybe they belong with the villains".

Hmm. I hadn't seen that comment, but if it's a direct quote (without some redefining context) it's certainly poorly stated.

And quite frankly, with how it potrays PTSD, it only goes downhill. Like with Nico who now, when she shows symphtoms of PTSD, suddenly is afraid of turning evil like her parents. Which she never was afraid of before. Runaways aren't heroes because they don't want to turn out like their parents, they are heroes because they want to repay for the crimes their parents committed and clear the family name.

Nico's afraid of turning evil. "Like her parents" isn't the motivation for this fear, it's just something else she piles on. She's certainly being very hard on herself, but that was the case before this series too (like in Runaways Vol. 2, where she explicitly tries to set her boyfriend up with someone else because she feels like she's always breaking other people up).

And then she goes on an inner monologue rant about how Chase is so much better than her because he came out of this mess unaffected and book does nothing to prove her wrong. In fact it agrees with this sentiment in the way she is potrayed in the begining, when series clearly plays her as being in wrong for daring to isolate herself from her friends, which is what many people with PTSD do, andChase as much better because he "came back". Book does nothing to challenge that viewpoint, painting her trauma as somehow making her worse than person without it.

I think the book portrays Nico's decision to cut herself off from her friends as unwise, not as something that inherently makes her a bad person. I think this is fair; the fact that people respond to PTSD a certain way in real life doesn't mean that all those responses are healthy. Chase, by contrast, tries to integrate himself more, which seems to be a healthier strategy for dealing with their trauma. Nico is suffering from the trauma more visibly than Chase. I don't think that makes her a bad person.

There is also a lot of ignorance in how PTSD works. It's not making you more subjectable to giving in to more, lets call it, "mean" urges. Yes, some people with PTSD show much increased levels of hedonistic thendencies, but not all of them and in fact those who show thendencies towards nihilism are less likely to act hedonistic. Yet here we are Nico, who goes from behavior typical for a person with high level of post-traumatic "present pesimis", which is unlikely to go together with present hedonism, into full-blown three months of sex and drinking with Alex Wilder. Hell, the whole idea Chase is unaffected by events of Murderworld is another sign of ignorance - he clearly shows increased levels of present hedonism, but the book refuses to acknowledge it and tries to prove he is fine.

When I first read through the series, I was also critical of Nico restarting her relationship with Alex, but looking through some of the issues again after reading your criticisms, I think I get it now; Nico is retreating further in on herself. She's spending with time with Alex because he doesn't seem real to her, and she wants to further isolate herself from the real world, which seems pretty consistent with her earlier characterization.

While we are at it, same thing with firggin Aiden, who basically is completely unaffected by whole thing and don't even morun his supposed "love", who died to save him. No, apparently he quickly got over it so now he can be free to help Hazmat get over Mettle. Which quite frankly looks very sexist - basically Jen is "cured" by Aiden the Barbarian's penis. It also unsettingly ties in how many people feel Aiden is Hopeless' self-insert. I mean, fat, redhead nerd writing about fat, redhead nerd who gets body out of Frank Frazetta painting, kills his bully, girl he had a crush on falls in love with him and when she dies he gets new one without doing anything for it and suddenly people want him to be a leader? Sounds fishy.

Meh, Aiden was never all that exciting to me. I'll take your word that he has a lot in common with Hopeless.

Spoiler: minor spoilers

Show

I don't think, however, that Hazmat moving forward with her life was caused by Aiden at all, and I don't think it was really portrayed that way; it's not like there was a major change in the way she was acting immediately before and immediately after making out with him.

Equally fishy as Alex, who gets Nico despite acting towards her as most creepy jerk, straigt-out bullying her and making her uncomfortable despite her repeadet pleas to stop (and yet when she snaps at him it's shown as her being mentally unstable) and yet she is only allowed to call him on it after abovementioned three months of not leaving his bed (and apparently she too is "cured" by his penis, even through no amount of love or sex can cure trauma. Or anything for that matter).

I think this is the continuation of her character as I talk about it above; she's retreating further in on herself. I don't really see her snapping at him as being portrayed negatively; it feels more like her snapping back to reality, when she finally realizes that she needs to deal with the real world.

This is where sexist part comes from ,the way the story treats Nico and Hazmat as prizes for Aiden and Alex that they are apparently "entitled" too. And from how book all the time showes Nico's breasts upfront and in other ways sexualizes her, despite her being underage.

I don't think she's particularly sexualized. That said, I've read series before without noticing a character being particularly sexualized, only to look at it again later and realize that they very much were, so if you happen to have some examples, I'm all ears (or eyes, as the case may be).

And also from the fact how Cammi, who is your typical "butch woman" that rejects any sort of feminity, is shown as better than other women and always right when coming in conflict with them, perpetuating a very harmful stereotype that women can only be competent and useful if the abbandon all that is stereotypically perceived as feminine and act exactly like men.

I'd like to draw your attention to the Vasquez Always Dies trope, a sexist trope that was quite common (it seems to be getting less so). In some ways, showing that a female character can be useful without being traditionally feminine is an important feminist ideal. Beyond that, Jenn and Nico are portrayed positively throughout the series; the idea that the only "good" female characters are the perfect ones is problematic.

Cammi is also the highest proof of misanthropy, being this walking perfection who is always right despite being obsessed about keeping ehr sense of moral purity and is only one to reject the idea of infiltrating the bad guys because that would be making compromise. Instead she abbandons her friends, because apparently if you are making compromises, you are worthless and can be discarded and yet is there with morally pure "Avengers" (quotation because of of those Avengers some of them weren't ever a members of any incarnation of the team) to save the day, showing her as true hero. And in the end she single-handely saves the day aly one who could do thatnd gets others "redeption" because she is pure so she is the on. Add to this the fact Hopeless thinks that if kids killed Arcade for real, they would be beyond redemption and we have the same misanthropic, black and white worldview where you are either moral perfection or a rotten bastard, that stands behind so many horrible comics like Maximum Carnage. It's the same hipocritical belief that makes me hate Spider-man and Batman, who upholds it.

Spoiler: All the way through the end of the last issue

Show

Cammi makes a speech explicitly stating that Arcade deserved to die, and that the kids were completely justified in killing him (or trying to). She's never criticized for it. In the end, all of the team, except Deathlocket, but including Cullen, who joined the Masters of Evil with absolutely no intentions to turn on them, are redeemed and accepted back by the Avengers. I remain completely unconvinced by your above statements.

And is it only me or it's unsetting that out of the cast three white, straight people, two men and a woman, are shown as being unaffected by traumatic events while three women of color and a gay guy are more or less "broken"? Especially when that first group is repeadetly potrayed as better?

Actually, I quite like that the minorities and female characters got actual character development, as opposed to being token minorities/women, as often happens. I think Chase and Aiden weren't portrayed as much as the other characters, period, so naturally we don't get much insight into whether they're suffering from trauma.

As for what happens with the kids now - I want Nico and Chase to go back to Runaways, where they belong. They can take Jen with them. Rest can go to hell and I hope next time they show up they'll die brutal death. Including Alex, if he survived this awful book.

I think you misunderstood my question; I wondered if there was going to be another rollover (Avengers: The Initiative -> Avengers Academy -> Avengers Arena -> Avengers Undercover). Turns out, nope.

[Man on Fire]

I think the book portrays Nico's decision to cut herself off from her friends as unwise, not as something that inherently makes her a bad person.

Well, I've felt it does potray this as making her somehow worse.

She's spending with time with Alex because he doesn't seem real to her, and she wants to further isolate herself from the real world, which seems pretty consistent with her earlier characterization

How? I'm not buying it. To this point she was the person who tried to actually get closer to people to deal with traumatic experiences (and I'd argue she had PTSD at least since end of Runaways vol.1, onlythat other writers weren't trying to make it a selling point of the book), not cut herself from the world into some world of fantasies.

That said, I've read series before without noticing a character being particularly sexualized, only to look at it again later and realize that they very much were, so if you happen to have some examples, I'm all ears (or eyes, as the case may be).

Her outfit in issue #2, entire issue #3, the way her spine bends in impossible ways in issue #7.

In some ways, showing that a female character can be useful without being traditionally feminine is an important feminist ideal.

Yes, but on the other side hammering down how female character who isn't traditionally feminine is always better than those who are is also sexist problem, the same that lead to the whole "strong female characters" trap. And I do argue that this book constantly hammers down how Cammi is better than Jen or Nico. Not that she is useful, but that she is better. In the same way that Frank Miller hammers down how better than anybody with superpowers Batman is.

the idea that the only "good" female characters are the perfect ones is problematic.

And this is the idea that I'm arguing, is this book's message. Through the entire reading I had the feeling this awful piece of turd is telling me "If you aren't perfect they you will never be good, don't even try, just give up and let perfect people, real heroes, solve the problem". That's how I see the entire thing, as having one of the most disgusting, cynical, misanthropic messages I've ever seen.

Anyway, I don't really want to continue this conversation. This series is over and I'm trying to get rid of my systems the poison that it was. First time in 7 months I didn't felt sick of my stomach this awful garbage is published, I'd rather avoid talking about this awful book anymore.

[GameSpawn]

Anyway, I don't really want to continue this conversation. This series is over and I'm trying to get rid of my systems the poison that it was. First time in 7 months I didn't felt sick of my stomach this awful garbage is published, I'd rather avoid talking about this awful book anymore.

Well, I suppose I'll agree to disagree, as they say, though as a word of advice, you might avoid offering opinions about topics you don't want to talk about.

[Man on Fire]

Well, I suppose I'll agree to disagree, as they say, though as a word of advice, you might avoid offering opinions about topics you don't want to talk about.

Belive me, I didn't knew that seeing your post will make me feel exactly the same as whenever I had to endure a reminder this awful series is going - sick of my stomach. And seeing how today I had the same reaction when I saw praise for Arena while reading some article on tvtropes, well... I'm starting to think I might not get over these books so easily as I thought. I just... I cannot forgive Marvel for publishing them. I cannot forgive people who created them. I feel horible every time I remember this is a part of biography of some of my favorite characters and might as well be the last thing I might ever see them in. They killed my love for Marvel and my excitement at their new project. No longer can I look foward a new character or new book, no longer can I get trurly invested i nthem - because all the time I fear that in a year of two they will decide to throw it all into another horrible meatgrinder like Arena and then follow by mocking and insulting whoever ever liked them into first place. And all under giant "Buy Avengers!" sing.
I just... I feel like a childhood friend stabbed me in the back, and these books were the knife. Do you understand that?