Playing a Rogue... Looking for in-combat tips...

[Cloud]

Rolling, in 4e? ...Okay, anyway, any point to the Wisdom of 16? With those frankly for 4e ridiculous stats I would have gone (after all bonuses);
Str 19, Con 16, Dex 19, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 18
Wisdom and Charisma are mostly deciding your Will Defense here, so might as well boost the one you get a racial too. After that Constitution is always a worthwhile quaternary ability because of healing surges.

For the items are use using inherent bonuses, or just getting shafted with wealth?

[wolfstone]

Rolling, in 4e? ...Okay, anyway, any point to the Wisdom of 16? With those frankly for 4e ridiculous stats I would have gone (after all bonuses);
Str 19, Con 16, Dex 19, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 18
Wisdom and Charisma are mostly deciding your Will Defense here, so might as well boost the one you get a racial too. After that Constitution is always a worthwhile quaternary ability because of healing surges.

For the items are use using inherent bonuses, or just getting shafted with wealth?

I went WIS over CHA to boost my Perception to a decent level. Not sure what you're asking in that last part. Can you re-phrase that part?

[Dimers]

Not sure what you're asking in that last part. Can you re-phrase that part?

He's saying that getting only a single magic item (and a +1 at that) is strangely weak for a 5th-level character. Your last loadout didn't mention owning anything magical besides a +1 flaming dagger. One of the reasons you might have low wealth is if the DM is using the "inherent bonuses" optional rule so as to keep characters viable against equal-level enemies while running a low-wealth campaign. Basically, with inherent bonuses you always have enhancement bonuses to attack, damage and all defenses as if you were equipped with level-appropriate weapons/implements, armor and amulet/cloak.

Normal starting wealth for a level 5 character would be one item at level 6 or less, one at 5 or less, one at 4 or less, and enough money to buy a level 4 item (840 gp). IIRC you also get as much mundane personal equipment as you care to lug around.

[wolfstone]

He's saying that getting only a single magic item (and a +1 at that) is strangely weak for a 5th-level character. Your last loadout didn't mention owning anything magical besides a +1 flaming dagger. One of the reasons you might have low wealth is if the DM is using the "inherent bonuses" optional rule so as to keep characters viable against equal-level enemies while running a low-wealth campaign. Basically, with inherent bonuses you always have enhancement bonuses to attack, damage and all defenses as if you were equipped with level-appropriate weapons/implements, armor and amulet/cloak.

Normal starting wealth for a level 5 character would be one item at level 6 or less, one at 5 or less, one at 4 or less, and enough money to buy a level 4 item (840 gp). IIRC you also get as much mundane personal equipment as you care to lug around.

That's because it's a starting character (starting at Lvl. 5). I didn't know all of that, though, so I'll go back and get better armor and maybe a neck item. Perhaps some Potions of Healing as well, for when I take damage, esp. from attacks that target Will. :P Not sure wone what all he's planning as he still hasn't developed his campaign yet, but I thought starting with more than a single enhanced item would have been too much as far as usual set level character-creation goes.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Flashbang Powder? Is it worth using?

[wolfstone]

The real issue I have with playing a dagger rogue is that I have to sacrifice a lot of attack power to get that extra point of accuracy. I wonder if investing a feat to get a Flaming Rapier would be better. I'd lose a point of accuracy, true, but double my potential weapon damage. 24 damage on a 6W power is far less appealing than 48 potential damage on the same attack.

[masteraleph]

The real issue I have with playing a dagger rogue is that I have to sacrifice a lot of attack power to get that extra point of accuracy. I wonder if investing a feat to get a Flaming Rapier would be better. I'd lose a point of accuracy, true, but double my potential weapon damage. 24 damage on a 6W power is far less appealing than 48 potential damage on the same attack.

1) Keep in mind that 1 point of accuracy isn't worth 1 point of damage. 1 point of accuracy = 5% of (non-critical) damage, so if a power does, say, 40, damage, 1 point of accuracy is equivalent to 2 damage; if it does 80, it's equivalent to 4 damage.

2) You're not sacrificing that much. On a 6W power (which few of yours are going to be), average damage with a 1d4 weapon is 15 (2.5*6) and with a 1d8 weapon is 27 (4.5*6), so you're sacrificing 12 damage. The only time that's not true is on a crit. But even then, your Sneak Attack and static modifier damage is the same, so you're still doing better with daggers.

3) Static damage mods and multiattack powers are king (though Rogues can crit-op enough to make up for slightly fewer multiattacks). I'm going to suggest a somewhat different character (Brutal Scoundrel and a high STR rather than Cunning Sneak), for illustrative purposes. Instead of a Kensai with a Rapier, think instead a Shock Trooper- your daggers now do 1d6 instead of 1d4 (or, if you're a Bugbear, wield Large daggers and have 1d8 daggers), and you have a potential triple attack from the paragon path. Keep in mind that you also get At level 16, you also get +Dex mod to one of those attacks. If you want to take a power swap feat, you could also have grabbed Rain of Blows. Your action point nova now includes Rain of Blows, Shocking Twister, and Low Slash, for up to 7 attacks, plus sneak attack damage, plus STR mod damage from Brutal Scoundrel, plus DEX mod damage at 16 (and at Epic, you grab Brutal Advantage right away to make that +STR to all of your attacks). Alternatively, scrap the MCing to fighter, take Daggermaster, and use Circling Predator plus Low Slash plus an Action Point attack to do 4 damage instances each of which has a 15% chance of critting. If you MC to Avenger instead, use Oath of Enmity, then Shadow Steel Roll, then Low Slash and then AP Circling Predator for 4 attacks each of which rolls twice with a 15% chance of critting on any of the rolls. And Two Weapon Fighting/Two Weapon Opening gives you a free melee basic then if you crit, which if you're a brutal scoundrel will probably be a decent attack as well.

Whatever...that went on longer than I'd intended. Point is that daggers, accuracy, multiattacks, and high static mods do much more for you then 1d8 vs. 1d4 on the damage die.

[wolfstone]

1) Keep in mind that 1 point of accuracy isn't worth 1 point of damage. 1 point of accuracy = 5% of (non-critical) damage, so if a power does, say, 40, damage, 1 point of accuracy is equivalent to 2 damage; if it does 80, it's equivalent to 4 damage.

2) You're not sacrificing that much. On a 6W power (which few of yours are going to be), average damage with a 1d4 weapon is 15 (2.5*6) and with a 1d8 weapon is 27 (4.5*6), so you're sacrificing 12 damage. The only time that's not true is on a crit. But even then, your Sneak Attack and static modifier damage is the same, so you're still doing better with daggers.

3) Static damage mods and multiattack powers are king (though Rogues can crit-op enough to make up for slightly fewer multiattacks). I'm going to suggest a somewhat different character (Brutal Scoundrel and a high STR rather than Cunning Sneak), for illustrative purposes. Instead of a Kensai with a Rapier, think instead a Shock Trooper- your daggers now do 1d6 instead of 1d4 (or, if you're a Bugbear, wield Large daggers and have 1d8 daggers), and you have a potential triple attack from the paragon path. Keep in mind that you also get At level 16, you also get +Dex mod to one of those attacks. If you want to take a power swap feat, you could also have grabbed Rain of Blows. Your action point nova now includes Rain of Blows, Shocking Twister, and Low Slash, for up to 7 attacks, plus sneak attack damage, plus STR mod damage from Brutal Scoundrel, plus DEX mod damage at 16 (and at Epic, you grab Brutal Advantage right away to make that +STR to all of your attacks). Alternatively, scrap the MCing to fighter, take Daggermaster, and use Circling Predator plus Low Slash plus an Action Point attack to do 4 damage instances each of which has a 15% chance of critting. If you MC to Avenger instead, use Oath of Enmity, then Shadow Steel Roll, then Low Slash and then AP Circling Predator for 4 attacks each of which rolls twice with a 15% chance of critting on any of the rolls. And Two Weapon Fighting/Two Weapon Opening gives you a free melee basic then if you crit, which if you're a brutal scoundrel will probably be a decent attack as well.

Whatever...that went on longer than I'd intended. Point is that daggers, accuracy, multiattacks, and high static mods do much more for you then 1d8 vs. 1d4 on the damage die.

Well, if you're talking about rolling Criticals and getting bonuses from doing so, that's something that's far too situational for me. As I've stated before (maybe in another thread) I have very poor luck in die rolling, and numbers of 18-20 are incredibly rare for me (regardless of die used, rolling method or even surface I'm rolling on, I just flat have abyssmal luck when it comes to die rolls) so any feats(, etc.) involving rolling a Critical are essecially dead space for me that could be used for reliable options instead. I DID change to a Brutal Scoundrel for the extra damage for Sneak attacks, but what feats, etc. should I look for?

Also, Big weapons have no enhancements on the DDI character creator (which is what I use to make my characters, only filling in the stat results of my DM's die rolls for my stats (I asked him to roll them for me). The Big Weapons only show up as plain weapons with a larger hit die. The same goes for Accurate Dagger, which sucks as I'd love to use that on some characters, such as a Sorcerer.

[Kurald Galain]

1) Keep in mind that 1 point of accuracy isn't worth 1 point of damage.

Indeed, and then there's also the conditions which many powers inflict.

The practical rule of thumb is that any bonus to accuracy (that actually exists in the game and that's not dependent on some rare condition) is better than any bonus to damage (that actually exists in the game). So yes, take Nimble Blade over Backstabber, but don't take any feats like "gain +1 to hit against drow" or something similarly unlikely.

[wolfstone]

Indeed, and then there's also the conditions which many powers inflict.

The practical rule of thumb is that any bonus to accuracy (that actually exists in the game and that's not dependent on some rare condition) is better than any bonus to damage (that actually exists in the game). So yes, take Nimble Blade over Backstabber, but don't take any feats like "gain +1 to hit against drow" or something similarly unlikely.

So Nimble Blade works with other feats, such as Light Blade Expertise? What other feats can stack together? (DDI doesn't list them in the breakdown of atk and dmg bonuses for each power on the character builder, so I'm unclear on what all can be used together.

[georgie_leech]

So Nimble Blade works with other feats, such as Light Blade Expertise? What other feats can stack together? (DDI doesn't list them in the breakdown of atk and dmg bonuses for each power on the character builder, so I'm unclear on what all can be used together.

The general rule of thumb is that bonuses of different types stack, where same types don't. So two feats that give Feat bonuses won't stack; you take the greater of the two. The exception is attack bonuses which don't have a bonus type, which stack with anything that isn't themselves. So a Power that gives an untyped bonus won't stack with itself, but it will stack with different Powers. In particular, the Rogue bonus to Dagger attack rolls is untyped, meaning it stacks with everything.

[Cloud]

On the Dagger vs. Rapier, if you want to take Daggermaster and crit fish, go with the dagger. If you want to charge spam, go with the rapier.

If neither style particularly appeals to you, then I'd go with the dagger, the accuracy and saving a feat is better than a few points of extra damage per [W]. Most of your damage comes from sneak attack and static modifiers anyway and Rogue powers aren't exactly oozing high [W] options, so the dagger is more damaging on average.

[wolfstone]

So even though it's a weaker weapon, the dagger will do more damage on advarage than a Rapier or a Short Sword? Math was always my worst subject in school (I did better on English and Spelling), and after reading over the Dagger 101 handbook, I'm still rather confused.

It did, however, show me a bit on feats that can stack effects together for damage and accuracy. If I want to get max accuracy and damage for a Tiefling Rogue, I apparently should have all of the following (DEX begins at 18 and is increased every time possible to a max of 28):

Accuracy:

Flaming Weapon - Dagger
Rogue Scoundrel Weapon Talent for the +1 with daggers
Hellfire Blood feat
Light Blade Expertise feat
Nimble Blade feat (makes for +3 atk when you have CA, apparently)
Cunning Stalker feat
(possible other feats that get CA, such as Deadly Draw or Vicious Advantage)
Fighter PP Kensei (select Dagger)
Destined Scion ED (+2 DEX and +1 atk as well)
+
Hellfire of Mephistopheles feat (lowers Fire Resistance by 5 after you hit them)

Damage:

Flaming Weapon - Dagger
Hellfire Blood Feat
Fiery Blood feat (does more damage than Weapon Focus and has an added benefit)
Two-Weapon Fighting (only a +1 dmg, but I can then take Two-Weapon Defense for extra defense)
Backstabber feat
Iron Armbands of Power item
Kensei PP (+4 dmg with daggers at Lvl. 16... I would be willing to skip Kensei in favor of Ghostwalker for better CA effects, and the feats Fluid Motion, Unfettered Stride and Keep Your Feet)

And for more CA, Gloaming Armor, Feinting Gloves, and Cape of the Mountebank sound good as starting/early equipment.

Is there anything I missed?

[Sol]

You absolutely should not spend multiple more feats than you already have on getting CA. In the edge cases where you won't have CA through first strike, Calculated Acumen, Cunning Stalker, or flanking, nothing else will help you either.

You could do worse than kensei, but it shouldn't be necessary. daggermaster is one of the best paragon paths in the game, but if you really do crit less than other people do, maybe not?

Hellfire of Mephistopholes is a trap. Do not fall for it. Yeah, fire-resistant creatures will suck, but they should still be too rare for a feat that boosts your damage against them by 5 only after you've hit them once already to be worthwhile.

Two-weapon fighting, similarly, isn't particularly worth considering until you've exhausted all other options.

[wolfstone]

You absolutely should not spend multiple more feats than you already have on getting CA. In the edge cases where you won't have CA through first strike, Calculated Acumen, Cunning Stalker, or flanking, nothing else will help you either.

You could do worse than kensei, but it shouldn't be necessary. daggermaster is one of the best paragon paths in the game, but if you really do crit less than other people do, maybe not?

Hellfire of Mephistopholes is a trap. Do not fall for it. Yeah, fire-resistant creatures will suck, but they should still be too rare for a feat that boosts your damage against them by 5 only after you've hit them once already to be worthwhile.

Two-weapon fighting, similarly, isn't particularly worth considering until you've exhausted all other options.

So at Lvl. 6 I should not go for Nimble Blade? I was thinking of that or Backstabber. I think my initiative score (Starting DEX 18) will be enough that I won't need to worry about + initiative feats until Paragon.

If not Nimble Blade or Backstabber, what else would you recommend besides Improved Initiative?

[wolfstone]

So at Lvl. 6 I should not go for Nimble Blade? I was thinking of that or Backstabber. I think my initiative score (Starting DEX 18) will be enough that I won't need to worry about + initiative feats until Paragon.

If not Nimble Blade or Backstabber, what else would you recommend besides Improved Initiative?

Any replies on this? ...Anyone?

[Sol]

Any replies on this? ...Anyone?

Any of those three feats (nimble blade, backstabber, improved initiative) is excellent. You will want all three of them, really, and the order in which you pick them up isn't super important.

[tcrudisi]

Do you find yourself missing any? There's a lot of table variance when it comes to the difficulty of the monsters your DM throws at you. If you find yourself missing some, take Nimble Blade. Otherwise take Backstabber. Improved Initiative can be put off for a short while imo, though it is one that you will eventually want.

[Rarelyfly]

in my party we like to use somewhat "outside the box" tactics. for instance, our rogue has a habbit of pushing enemys smaller then him into his portable hole and then sealing it.

[wolfstone]

The Portable Hole tactic sounds like fun. As for feats at Lvl. 6, I Think Backstabber will be a good choice. I'm willing to put off one extra point of accuracy til lvl. 8 so that I can do more damage for awhile. Thanks for the tips.